Jake Wheeler's Nightline; Jehan Sadat

Good evening this is Nightline and I'm Jacqui there we're on location at Radford University. My guest this evening is Johansson dop who is the distinguished visiting professor at Radford University a candidate for the doctorate at the University of South Carolina and a possible peace champion of women's rights and she's also the widow of Anwar Sadat who was president of Egypt and was assassinated in 1981. This is about I want to talk to you about a number of things tonight and I want to talk to you about your efforts on behalf of the rights of women. I want to talk to you about Egypt and the changes taking place there. I want to talk to you about your husband. But first I want to talk about you for a moment who you are and how you've gotten where you are and I know your mother was English your father was Egyptian married to Anwar Sadat of the age of 15. Three daughters one son. Yes. How in all of this do you end up. I'm going for a Ph.D. of University of South Carolina. Well I received an honorary doctorate from South Carolina several years ago

and they get to know the president and the staff there. And when my husband passed away he was visiting Egypt and he came and visited me and he asked me why don't you come and teach in South Carolina. And that was the beginning that he had to come here. I have been here several times on visits but not teaching by me. And that opened for me in really which I enjoying very very much and being yet indebted or so it's a wonderful time which I spend when I go back to childhood a moment what about your own schooling your own preparation at the secondary level and so I used to teach in Cairo University in Egypt I took a leave and I came near here one year and I'm supposed to go back next year but I will take another year to be here again because I'm enjoying very much teaching here enjoying my students as I used to enjoy it and also in Egypt as a

child to go to a traditional Egyptian school to go to a special school in the primary or only was a special school it was an English school and they had the mistress of the school was a British friend of my mother Beth the secondary school it was the traditional government schools the public schools. Human interest certainly interested in the rights of women in the Third World and generally the role of women in the world. Sure in fact I think it's safe to say you rather turn dejection society upside down and away from some of these issues. When did you become sort of self conscious self consciously aware of your role as a woman and when your interest in these matters they develop. I was very interested since I was a child. This was something that even my parents noticed this and they were very surprised because my mother was not talking about women's rights or my father. None of my family but I don't know if

it happened. The environment which I was a built in for women in Egypt who could they would not having the same rights the same quality with men that seems instilled in myself I was a child and I didn't realize except when I grew up I felt it of course. And when my husband became president I thought this is one opportunity to make something for the women. I hope I have done so. What was your husband's reaction to your interest was this was a something you had to educate him or was he strongly supportive from the very beginning. No I had as an oriental man I had to see at the beginning it was anything but difficult not easy but he accepted it gradually. Later on specially when I was involved between two. He saw himself not me. The many many other women

volunteers they have done such a magnificent that all I would see and he get to believe in women. But gradually it was a gradual development but a firm and a firm commitment on his part. Yes yes. And this resulted in what I think popularly as what's called Yes the big one exactly did they do. Well it gave the women the right to know if if her husband is going to be mighty well it's her right to know and to decide if she's going to continue with him or to ask for her rights. It gives the women that I it's for the custody of the children deal to the age of 13 for the boy and the girl. She stays with her mother. It gave it gave also the right for diverse women to have the alimony which they were really suffering from the maneuvering of the husbands some husbands and going to the courts and coming back without having

alimony and you can understand if she doesn't have any job or anything what can she do. Or any kind of income really. Many women suffer from this and because of the new model. Is to give the alimony in just one week in the same month when they are divorced from a bank called Lawson bank there and then the deed with the husband and they can manage to arrange it with the husband littered on only two. The custody and the flat. Or the house when they are divorced the woman who stays and the husband who leaves. That was maybe the most important thing which I was severely attacked from men because of shortage of housing and things like that everything except a lot of crime yes. Yes but again it's not the wife. It's the

children who are growing up in this. They must be in the same atmosphere. My concern is very much for the children who are going to suffer. Well it must have been a terrible disappointment to you when I was at a religious court that reversed in the last couple of years. It was just people who are not religious but who could say fundamentalists really who started writing articles in the newspaper and are making such out of it as if this was not from the Islamic Sharia. Which was wrong because it went back and it passed again through the legal channels in the parliament as it was before and nothing changed. There's a sedan you're probably too polite to say this one put words in your own lips. One thing you probably found here is that we're woefully ignorant of Egypt in

general of the Arab world. One impression I have for example which is a guess based on ignorance is that. In Islam the woman's role is clearly subordinate to the male role and that the woman is subordinated in a sense. Now is this a part of the original teachings of the Koran. Or is this something needed. Exactly no this is not right. We have the right to choose our own husband. We have the right to have our own property to sell and buy. Even the compulsion of the husband. We have many rights except inheritance which the men like a woman but that he is it responsible for the expenses and the needs for the wife. But we have equal rights. That was

one hundred one thousand four hundred nor one of those giving women in other places. But I mean the translation of the quote when translating it in a very natural mind and translated Yes we have a Bible that can be entire carpeted in the same way. Your position is that you really are calling for every turn to basic Quranic teaching. Oh yes only for the marriage. You're probably aware the feminist movement in the United States at my institution of college recently we had two of the major exponents and opponents of feminism. Phyllis Schlafly spoke there who is a strong opponent of the Equal Rights Amendment then and a strong defender of what she calls traditional family values. And Sarah Weddington who was one of the lawyers that successfully fought the abortion case

before the Supreme Court. They were taking quite con sharply different positions. My reading of some of the things you have said suggests that you're not in either camp. Really. Are you saying something different as a result of a kind of strategy that Egyptian women have a long way to go before they reach the successes. Or is it something more fundamental that you know we try in Egypt too. I mean to to pick what matches with our traditions we have traditions. We have questions in our country which we respect and we meet with matches with us and as I always say it's not a battle against a man or just a desire to be better. We are calling for our rights for our equality. It is a kind of year for fulfillment for sharing in building our societies. And because of

that what I find good for our women. Why don't we do why don't we. And right don't we imitate even. But if there would be kind of extremist. I think it brings us more harm than good. I am for equality everywhere. I am for equal pay for equal work and for equality equal basis. But I respect women respecting that has been taking care of the children paying attention to them and to her husband and not to feel that equality means that equality means sharing. Exactly my feeling is that what you're advocating for only in women is the relationship you have with us because there is no better than to have very close ties within your family. This is very very important which in some parts of the West the lack of it.

But in the same way that you had to educate your husband to some extent I guess you have to raise the consciousness of women first before they're going to see this kind of equality. Well we are women I have to say I was not working and you and Billy were working with me and really they encourage me as a credit to them. It was sharing together but it really they deserved what they what I was just nagging at home with my husband because we are involved in many fields and they are very energetic and. Deserving what they do. I never been to Egypt I'm sorry to say I have on one occasion visited the Arab Emirates and Jordan and I was struck by. One thing symbolically struck by the skyline of Abu Dhabi. And when I saw. The minarets Muslims and yes and I saw these giant cranes construction cranes it seemed to me to symbolize the conflict between a kind of

traditional society and Western influences in some areas of the what we call the Middle East are are striving to maintain a fundamentalist kind of Islamic organization while importing Western ideas well Technology sure is going to work in the long run it will be shorter it will be because Indian Muslims will look for any kind of improvement for his society. And whenever you see more cranes it is more improvement for his country. Nothing nothing against religion in this many minutes with many kinds of groups together and that is what we are told as Muslims to improve our lives to it to live it to improve our self to educate ourselves. This is the grounding for Islam that the fundamentalists. They don't see this they can see women out of the homes this is a sin. This is not that he misled me.

It is cranes beside minutes that's pretty slim city and it is the other summer some of the difficulty of the summer perhaps. Only it is such a discussion which to many people they say well it is within. It is nothing written in Islam about it some they say you know there is something written about it but it was I believe it was for the prophet's wives because they were not like any other women of course but they have to be veiled for the respect of their they would have his wives. But I believe as a Muslim to be too I mean to be in a dignified way of wearing our clothes not to be very open not to be Langley and just go around with a long dress or a cover just to be decent in appearance. Appearance is one of the things but not everything that are so many other things which are deeper than the

appearance which is the attitude. And this is what God asks us as Muslims and I believe in the religion of the other. My guest this evening is John who is a visiting distinguished professor at Radford University. And where this interview is taking place and they fastly Martin gallery apower hall. And there's a beautiful collection of our collection and I could I ask you a question about a couple of strange things by Ishmael. SIMON Yes they look like village scenes on the riverbank. Yes and the two of them are in gold in the other and what is the medium he's painting in because it really looks like gold and it looks like silver. I don't know he's using and he is very well known in our country forward. And he is the one to do this also and these new jeans and he's.

Young he's 40 years is a contemporary art contemporary art collection process with it. Yes yes I wanted just the people he had to let to share with me their lectures about the ancient Egypt but to shed the mud in Egypt and to give them an idea about my king. When is that let me ask you something about your husband. I remember very clearly in 970 when he assumed power in Egypt. That on the colonel Nasser's death. Yes that the American newspapers treated your husband as something of what we call a lightweight. That is he was at best an interim sort of president between powerful leaders. And he turned out to be one of the most. Dynamic charismatic effective leaders in that part of the world of the decade. Exactly. I guess my question is.

Why were they so misunderstood in the West was it just a matter that he was not known or had he before that time really exhibited this kind of leadership. No I think you didn't understand him from the beginning and he was sometimes laughing about this when he said well they gave me I think a few months exactly and then he would not survive that. But it seems that you didn't understand him from the beginning but you you got to understand him later on. I don't know. Maybe there was not enough relation between the United States and Egypt there were no enough interviews that you can understand here. Maybe that was the reason. What was the driving force in him. Well how would you characterize it. Believing in God that he has faith in God. That was the

strength he he had that he. He was not. I mean he was a religious man but he was not a fundamentalist at all at all. But the first behind this was his faith in God where he brought about I heard some rather radical changes for that part of the world you know since 70s and he must have been aware. That. A lot of people were not going along with this. It was a volatile political situation. He must have been aware of his own personal danger the situation it was him it was a something he lived with surely good to know especially after his visit to Jerusalem. He was aware of this and I was aware of this of course. But he as I told you he used to tell me no one can add one minute or take one minute from my life. If you had to be and then that was his feet to the knowing that he was in danger. Yes but it would never either stop him or me.

It's a mission that he has to carry on and that it would be one day that that that. It was not only a duty it was a mission. I suppose his overtures to Israel and the offer of a trip to Jerusalem had to be one of the most dramatic political gestures of the last half century. Was this an individual decision on his part that he doesn't discuss it with you. Did he discuss it with his political advisers. No no no. It was his own decision. And he he thought about it many many times as a wife I could tell this that that is something which he is very very involved in but he didn't. Yet he cleared it. He was sitting so many others to think about it because it was not that easy decision to take but he paid his life already. But.

At least he paved the way for others to follow. And he started to put the foundation of the peace in the city will do its not that revealing but it will come one day I believe and I'm sure that's what we will. It's obvious what is the impact of his life upon the politics of the area in the park and the prospects for peace I suppose in another way I want to ask a negative question what really impact of his death upon the peace process. What what has what has not happened perhaps that would have happened had he survived for another five years and the leadership have he survived for another five years. What's happening in the area would have not been happened because that was a such a strong leader. I mean we met in our area these kind of leaders we lead

these kind of leaders who has the vision and the decision and I mean courage courage of course Beth. He as I said he died. He passed away but he left his legacy behind him when he started we never I mean grew in vain. It would continue in spite of the obstacles and in spite of the violences which is going down in spite of roosting the time that it would come one day I believe in this. At the heart of the at the heart of. Really peace of the world in a way but certain of that part of the world is the basic Arab Israeli dispute and that the phrases are often used and I think you've used in some of your writing that there is no sort of solution to the problem without a Palestinian homeland and there must figure in somewhere now that that phrase here has become almost a

cliche in the sense that it's used with the I don't know what the content is. And I'm I guess I'm asking a simple question. What what does a Palestinian homeland mean to you when you use the phrase. Well it's the West Bank and this type of does. And to be neighbors with Israel so that all of us would live in peace. To be I mean as a Palestinians to be scattered all over to the countries without a homeland when they started all these violences because I'm not saying this isn't executed for them. But at least when they will have their homeland when the problem will be sworn which is the core of the problem dealing with the Palestinians I believe and I assure you the Israelis would be secured. Palestinians would be having their homeland and the area would benefit from this deal. You you've been quoted as saying that you were giving up politics in fact one

quotations that I am fed up with. I want to ask you one political question because because of American involvement recently in that part of the world with the Libyan situation Mr. President has characterized Mr. Gadhafi as the kind of evil genius behind world terrorism and he's also referred to them as flaky. What is. What is your view of Colonel Gadhafi and what currently seems to be the view of the Egyptian public toward Qaddafi. While in Egypt Gaddafi is not beloved not only in Egypt. I believe if the last one loves any leader who is cruising just balances and trouble to everywhere. No one expect these kind of leaders at all. In Egypt we don't. Well here I was I was very surprised that the populists you're giving us too much overdone my people.

Did you feel the Americans perhaps played into his hands in this recent. As for playing well I don't want to criticize the American because I love them and I'm living here now. I believe you much more than you do and I love to do it than talk. Really doing the talking because of the publicity and the talking and just things out of nothing and then nothing. It's something which I'm very surprised to follow and I bring this interview to conclusion but the time is up but I want to ask one final question briefly. Where do you go from here. What are your plans are you have a tremendous history already. You've moved on the world stage but you're still a very young woman. Where do you go from here. We're going to get into. I'm going to have my defend in Egypt in Cairo where I'm teaching did in Cairo University but I'll be here also next year in that food universe coming back

and I'm back and forth. I didn't leave my country but I'm back and forth between Egypt and the United States and I believe this is also a step for peace because involving between students just letting letting them know about Egypt about the women about the society and understanding us and of course I understand the American people and when I go back during summertime I always tell my friends and my colleagues and much about the American people I believe this is a kind of exchanging ideas which is the dream for peace which we needed that exchanging visits understanding each other mood and more and becoming closer to each other. Thank you Mrs. Atheling my guest on Nightline and I'm grateful to Radford University for making the space available making you available to us. I think this is our last program of this season and to

return to us and we as I said we've been a writer at Radford University. Gallery of Powell Hall. Good night. Good stuff.