Civic Dialogue; Pat Bagley

Whether he's poking fun of the Mormon Church or the Utah legislature. Solely Tribune cartoonist Pat Bagley says he's never at a loss for material in Utah. Bagley spent two decades lampooned in Utah and world events and his cartoons. How does he choose his subject matter. And what is it like to be an editorial cartoonist. We'll find out as we talk one on one with Pat Bagley. Tonight. On civic dialogue conversation. For. Proof. The year is 1978 Pat Bagley is a student at Brigham Young University and the controversy is raging over whether or not BYU officials would let men and women live in the same apartment building. Bagley drew a cartoon about the issue of the cartoon was published. His life was forever

changed. Good evening I'm Ted Kapler welcome to civic dialogue conversation. It was a year later that Pat Bagley landed the job as the editorial cartoonist at the Salt Lake Tribune. In the last two decades Bagley has drawn almost 6000 cartoons poking fun at national and world leaders Utah legislators. The Mormon Church and Utah culture in general has put together 20 years of his best cartoons and a new book entitled The Best of Pat Bagley this book care. We're pleased to have him join us tonight for a civic dialogue conversation. Pat how did a. Nice Mormon boy at BYU graduate become such a cynic. Well there's just so much material down there he can't help it. There are a couple ways of surviving at BYU. One is to conform completely another one is to draw pictures. That's what I did. When did you start drawing pictures. Oh you know I've always liked art and I was like to draw. But my mother told me that

was no way to make a living. That the only artist was a starving artist. So I went to BYU and was majoring in Political Science with the idea that I go into either law school or public administration. But I got sidetracked. Are you practicing now what you learned in college. Oh yeah. Well a political scientist you you were are into politics all the time. Oh sure. Sure and it's a great state to be doing cartoons in. But but you actually had something of a background in your family in politics. That's right my father was mayor of a seaside town in California for 12 years and I got the behind the scenes look at local politics and the thing that he told me that I still remember is that local politics is always dirty. And that's true because they always take it very personally. And it's always just kind of you know right there. Well is local politics any different than national politics. Yeah well my cartoons are a good example when I do a local cartoon or a cartoon about Levitt or a cartoon about decor Dini

it. They they know it. They're aware of it. If I do a cartoon about Bill Clinton I don't think he cares. What how how do you define an editorial cartoon. What purpose is it. Well I don't know they kind of run the gamut. One of the things that they're supposed to do is to inform. The other thing is to entertain. And the other the last one is probably to persuade to get people to see things your way. Do you ever try and tie your cartoons and with the editorial on the same page. Oh no. There are no really give that up a long time ago. Yeah yeah. I mean it was trite at one point in time. Well it kind of would get together an editorial board meetings and they kind of assigned this subject matter and you know that we're going to do and they realized it was just more trouble than it was worth. Yeah. Are you worried about being current. You've got to be current reading the newspaper or reading the news magazines watching the news programs. How is your cartooning different say then

then Dilbert. Doonesbury or some of the others that sort of had to have a political bent. Well its springs out of your personality Doonesbury cartoons reflect his personality his upbringing. He probably went to Yale. That's your sort of cartooning. Yeah I went to BYU That's why I started cartooning. There's a lot of my cartoons have to do with Mormon culture and it has to do with my background. But you have to do everything in one frame. He gets three or four or six frames or whatever it is. Well actually we were taping this on Wednesday to do cartoons got to write nine different frames. So I've got the space it's about like that home within that space I can do pretty much what I want to. OK. So sometimes you do make several kinds of ideas within that space. Yeah. I'm assuming they don't draw naked pictures of Kirby they really don't care. They wouldn't that wouldn't be a very good thing to look at I know. Not at all not a Kirby Kirby as your buddy Robert Kirby the usual tourist That's right. And he

writes the introduction to your book which is you guys have done several things together. Yeah we've collaborated on oh there were collections of his columns along with cartoons that I generated to kind of illustrate the columns. There are three different books and the latest one is Patton Kirby go to hell. You know we had a sticker history that you could put on the book so I said heck we go to heck so you can take it to church. Well speaking of the church you turned LDS missionary. That's right. You were raised in a devout LDS family more or less devout moralized about and yet you very often attack the LDS church. Attack is maybe not the right word OK. I comment on the LDS Church and the LDS culture. The LDS culture I think is fair game. Things like ordinances I shy away from you know things are kind of central to the heart of religion. I won't I won't do you know whether it's a Mormon Muslim whatever.

But there are people who think that green jello is central to the tenets of Mormonism. They're fair game plastics plastic crates glass bricks they have those. And that's Fair Game. Oh sure. Well and do you ever get any adverse reaction to some of what you do. Oh all the time constantly. What brings about the most negative comment. What kinds of things. It's usually the things that are the least expected. I don't know if we're going to show that we have to let's show let's show them some of the cartoons now and we'll get to the one the least expected I'm sure we have I think if you to now this I think what you tell us about well there's a story behind this. OK this is the very first cartoon I ever did for BYU and I was sitting in my class and I got this idea for a cartoon about an issue that was current to BYU the Justice Department was trying to get BYU to integrate his dorm so that they would be quote coed dorms you know necessarily the same apartment but you know missing a building in the same building and this was in what year this is 1978. It was the very first

thing that I ever did I took it to the newspaper. They had me do a final copy this was it they printed it and. Time magazine picked it up read it but your style has changed considerably from there so let's look at the next one. That was a question Has your style. Yeah well the show's OK well this is actually just a bit a year or two later when I started working at the Tribune probably in the first year but the Democrats were out in the cold and these Republicans are saying how I hate seeing poor dumb beasts suffer like that the other curtain will you. You know some of the cartoons I could dust off I think about it tomorrow. Yeah I think some things just don't change. Do you ever repeat. Yeah unintentionally I do. I did a cartoon a couple of years ago about growth in Utah. You know and somebody dug up I don't know where they dug it up something I've done 15 years previously it was almost the same cartoon I had forgotten completely about it. Well some things never change. OK tell us about this one look at all the cartoons have ever done this is the one

that probably illustrates the politics of the state better than anything this guy in the church office building is talking to a secretary of the intercompany sister financially I'm tired of these news stories accusing the church of calling all the shots and Utah have the legislature pass a resolution denying it. What kind of reaction did you get to that. Officially there's no reaction but an official here that some people liked it some people didn't like it but the thing they can't dispute is it's kind of true. They the picture of the person doing the calling over the intercom. Could have been anyone and sort of sort of played it safe that way. A man in a dark suit. Yeah holding. Yeah our glasses get anybody here could be anybody OK. Let's look at some others now moving on to the next one. Welcome to Idaho home of the Utah lottery I guess that's one you could use pretty much any time. Yes pretty self-explanatory.

I mean just 6000 cartoons it really works. The issue behind this one was the ACLU brought a lawsuit about school school prayers during commencement. Yes it was some big to do some of the icons that I constantly use are the seagulls and the crickets and the angel Moroni. They're good fodder. OK so here's this graduating senior she's praying and she says and we ask the two you know like help us you know with these you know darn lawsuit things and so the seals are carrying off Michelle parish because it was ahead of me. Well yeah. Some of these would not play a year or two later but this one was very timely at the at the time you did it. Yeah I was tied to the issue. You know I remember OK let's look at the next room. This is another one that was it was very much tied to a happening story. Dr Jacobson was a fertility doctor who was in his own seed to help these women procreate and they weren't aware of it. You brought up on charges and found guilty.

The caption is when did you first suspect F-you Jacobson was the father and then you look at the little girl. And there's a striking resemblance you very much for how I remember that story well for some reason people seem to remember this one. OK and you taught lifetime commitments often begin with four little words. Are you a woman. OK this is on the heels of it. Felix was that his name I think so yeah. This is a woman who is very fragile how long for over a year and the longer you have and wasn't aware you know. OK do we have one more. Two more I think. This is you know again something I did 12 years ago but we could haul this one out. The state legislature the legislators getting up there saying all in favor of making English the official language of Utah say you bet. All opposed to say for ignorance. You could have used that there's that this year too. What year was this when you remember. I'm guessing that was probably 78. Yeah it is hard to tell you.

OK let's look at the next one. This is where you do more than one pound when you are going out. OK this is someone teaching at a Catholic school she says class was the source of all lies corruption hatred and evil in the world and some girl says I know I know I know. Yes Mary Elizabeth white males in the porn and says God help us. And the voices What's she got to do with you. You go to several levels of controversy there. Don't you know I think General it all into once I like a Sports Illustrated ran a story about the BYU coach and his sons who are playing on his team and his coach coach would say read that's not right it is right around here if Roger witnesses are playing for BYU and they happen to read it during the Simms edition which is a big favorite of you know I remember them. And so the problem was is the students want to read about their team how do they do it without being corrected. And so I came up with this idea they

cut this out and paste on top of the swimsuits. But they can maintain their purity. You know this is another one that I did it and I didn't give it a whole lot of thought. But the people seem to remember and they talk about this one as when the gay clubs were a big controversy in the lives of legislatures just kind of stopped dead in its tracks too to address it. He's saying he come out. I mean while it's funded by the huge rats that represent teen violence teen suicide teen pregnancy gangs. So on and so on. You know very meaningful. To him. OK I guess we have another one or two that the Utah Democrats again. Yeah you know Democrats you can tell that is more current because the car the driving is a more recent model. Let's grab him before he changes his mind. In this guy's got a sense as we'll run as a Democrat for food. How well we're going to end on that one.

These are just a few of the many you do and many that are in this book you've done six thousand since you've worked there how do you count what you ever get stymied the ever hit the black wall if you will. It's like anything else you have good days bad days and you have runs of really good stuff and in ones where there's work sometimes they do things that I think it is kind of OK and people say that was great. Sometimes I do what I think is just terrific and I won't hear a thing. So you never do more than you trying to want to day or do you just pretty much try to keep currents that means one a day. Yeah occasionally the tribunal had me illustrate a column or out of some kind of article they're winning and I'll do that. Are there subjects that you really shy away from. I mentioned earlier you did mention a couple against. Yeah go having anything to do with Gordon and they're going to churn out things they are. Yeah but no. And there are a few times they'll do a cartoon. And run it by my editors. I'll think you know I'm going to see if these guys are watching if they're listening. It's already by the editors and

they they think and I don't think it's going to get published but they will sometimes surprise me and go ahead and let me do it. How often do they keep. The ones you've done out. They censor you. You know lately it hasn't been very often and that could do with the change of the. A different publisher and they kind of let me have free reign. I don't abuse the privilege very much. When I first started they were used to a car to us and they used to pull cartoons almost weekly once a week. On the other hand I'm not working for the desert news and that's good news. I don't think I'd get anything published. I want to. What kinds of things did they keep out. Back when it first started. Things that they thought were important a store you know occasionally one that they didn't think could be understood because it was too obscure. Yeah yeah. Various reasons. Well you you don't have to search very far to get your ideas you can get them in the daily paper I get them from the neighborhood.

Well I like I like to think I've got two million Utahns who are reading my material and they provide me with lots of stuff all the time. Are you always seeking humor at all not always. I don't think we're going to show it but there have been a few cartoons some in the book that are not funny but they make a point and. And you know again that's one of the purposes of the cartoon is to kind of drive home the point. Who or who do you think is the best cartoonist working today nationally or in love you know what I think one of the one of the best undiscovered geniuses in cartooning is called Randall and he's up in Ogden. Yeah you know his stuff gets around locally but not nationally which is really too bad because he's wonderful. The others that are pretty good are Boardman and all the fun all of us when the little penguin in the art of that has you know saying on the side and he is syndicated of course by the time he's that he's Yeah you know thousands of papers what about you. Could that ever happen for you. It's a problem because there are you know a hundred fifty of us and there may be 12 slots.

Yeah and fit into if you want to be syndicated. And it gets pretty fratricidal when an opening happens. I've decided that I'm happy with being in Utah and doing local humor and I have more effect that way too. The cartoons are more effective if I do if I comment on local issues whether the national How do you know when they're effective and when they're not. Oh people squeal you know yeah yeah yeah you know you're going to get your culture and there's your editor ever come and raise Cain with you. Not often not often. Occasionally they'll get talked to by somebody and they'll relay the information to me. Now you do as we said at the outset have deep throat. You you were born in Utah but raised in Southern California was it Southern or that's what my family's from Utah. I was I was born here grew up in Southern California in Oceanside San Diego came back up here to go to school. So you do have roots you do have roots in the old against church.

But you don't seem to be controlled by any of those. Is that true or is that not true. I think it's fairly accurate fairly as do I don't I don't worry about my eternal salvation when I do a cartoon. I guess that I assume that God is a lot more liberal than most people think he's a lot more forgiving if you interrogate you and Kirby feel the same way. That's right we believe in a very forgiving God. You could tear and yet he's very active in the church and I argue that's kind of a loaded question it is isn't it. How are you. Yeah yeah yeah well I don't I could come of the very flip that Israel like to say that I'm a Mormon emeritus or higher. Truth is truth is I have not been to church for a while but. I maintain my contacts with people in the church and the neighborhood is fairly heavily LDS I've got good relations with my neighbors and you know the state you can't avoid it. I'm not hostile put it that way. Well that I guess was the point of the question. And you'll forgive me for being a

person who wants his thought it fitted in and Kirby makes such a to do about in his columns when he does make fun of the church and yet points out always that he's there seeing what's happening. So forgive me for being personal let's hit on that issue. So what do you want to be when you grow up. That's about what you are. You know I'm happy with what I'm doing at the Tribune. It's the perfect job in the perfect place and I can't imagine doing this anywhere else. You know it is only big cities about cartoonist only big cities can afford a paper that has a cartoonist. And anywhere else that have to live in a place like Chicago or New York yeah. And that doesn't appeal to me. You know here I'm working in a place I'm 10 minutes away from the canyons the doors are wonderful and Utah was a pretty great state. Do you do you ever get frustrated by having more that you'd like to deal

with than you have space or days to do. You know maybe you've noticed this but the news seems to run in streaks you know especially during the summer things can really go through Lowell and then you know just a few weeks ago we had the SLOC that you know came down in the bribery scandal and that was in the middle of the Senate trial impeachment of the president. You know so there was a wealth of material and had to pick and choose. Well speaking of that and speaking of the Olympics I understand that you were and Robert Kirby the humor columnist. Are preparing a book will be available. For visitors who come to your talk to the Olympics. Tell us a little about what you have in mind. Well it's kind of germinating but the idea is that it's a kind of book that people who live in Utah would appreciate but they consider friends as kind of a primer before they come to the state to be aware of you know what to expect lots of humor lots of cartoons the kind of thing they could

sell the airport and the people wouldn't feel overwhelmed or persuaded that they had to love the state but could kind of laugh along with us. Do you think that all of the scandal surrounding. The Olympics the Salt Lake Organizing Committee has really critically damaged the image of the state that it hasn't helped. Certainly not. And being bringing Mitt Romney on was a great piece of PR and he's seems to be doing a fairly good job to try to you know correct things. There's a cartoon in the book that I did back in 100 eighty eight if I remember correctly and it showed the site selection committee arriving in Salt Lake City and the SLOC and it was called back then. But obviously the Utah delegation are kissing their feet. And these guys from the Olympic Committee are saying well let's give them a 10 on the Graben portion of the selection process. And that was what 12 years ago. There really you were right on. An

excellent book The Best of Bagley and we have some works here that that's the book and it is available How's it doing. Pat is doing fairly well. We've talked a lot about this but I want you to tell me. How you define humor. You know defining him was tough it's like dissecting a frog. You know it's kind of interesting is that the look at the frog dies it's what makes something funny and I know people write papers about it but it kind of takes the humor out of it. It's funny if people laugh at it that if it hits and immediately had a neighbor some years ago who was devout LDS you actually saying in the in the Tabernacle Choir and I knew that I did a great cartoon you know taking the cartoon and show it to him and he would laugh and then he'd catch himself think I should be left. There are I'm sure that a lot of the of the readers of The Tribune do the same thing all the time. You are going to continue this for a long time you're not worried about running out

of out of material. Well so long as legislature and BYU. Yeah I thought that area. That's right. Do you ever go far afield for your for your ideas that you sometimes do comment on regional issues and on national issues occasionally. Yeah I do but you prefer not doing that. Well the cartoons have got more impact and they're more effective and you know people like relate to the cartoon so if they try to keep it local regional you know cultural. Those have the most effect they seem to but occasionally I will do national cartoons maybe once or twice a week to come in on the national issues and that's you know for different reasons to keep people current in and to get my little two bits in about those things too. Are your parents surprised that your success as a cartoonist. Oh they're flabbergasted. Yeah why. Well they had been living under the viaduct when I was growing up. Thanks that's had its own future. Well but you talk politics I mean you are sort of bred to do this kind of well that was a wonderful thing about growing up in that household as my

father was the mayor. Before that he was the city manager and we watch the news all the time and talk politics. Sure. And you know I learned at my father's knee what politics is about and also what was funny. He had a very good sense of humor. Is it hard to learn to do the actual drawing. Did you have any formal training on that. Yeah yeah. Well no. I mean I like to draw. Yeah. And as far as for formal training to do cartoons it's so individual that you have to develop it as you go along. The stuff that I did 20 years ago you can tell it it's a lot cruder than the stuff I do now. I've developed skills and it's like anything else you do that the more you do it the better you get. I know that it is very difficult to do. The student newspaper here has been trying to get a cartoonist and they've tried different kids and it's really hard for them to do it. Yeah it's really hard but you know for some reason when I was coming up at BYU there were all kinds of folks over there coming out of the woodwork. Steve Benson. Yeah. You know down there was a

Republican a few years ago I was there at the same time that I was and we would change positions on the editorial page you know every other day I was on top and he'd be down there and then we'd switch on the next issue and that was a lot of fun. Is a good place to cut your teeth. It was interesting to have two such outstanding cartoonists there at the same time. Well he's a product of the what you do when you are I don't know this from a lot to talk about down there. Yeah I saw what you said at the outset. Well Pat thank you very much we appreciate you having come by and the once again will tell folks the best of Bagley is available. I'm sure you can get it at most bookstores. Yeah forward by Robert Kirby reduce appreciate your having been here if you'd like to make a comment about tonight's program please call our viewer hotline. The number is 5 8 one day you can also visit the civic dialogue page on the Web site the Internet address KQED dot org. Next week the National Conference for community and justice will honor

Dr. Chaisson Gretta Peterson with their humanitarian award we're going to talk with the Petersons about the award about their lives and community involvement in Utah on our next civic dialogue conversation That's all next Friday at 8:00 until man. I'm Ted Kaye. You're good.