Concealed Carry on Campus

this summer than say kansas public colleges and universities become a reality i'm kate mcintyre and today on kbr preserves concealed carry on campus as of july first it will be illegal to carry him down at kansas public colleges and universities if you're twenty one years old an otherwise legally able to carry a concealed weapon coming up the pros and cons of concealed carry a community conversation hosted by kansas public radio and the lawrence public library but first as that july first deadline grows closer the kansas legislature may reconsider their stance on concealed carry on campus this on the heels of yet another campus shooting this one at nora's play college near dallas texas earlier this week i checked in with k pr statehouse bureau chief stephen koranda for an update on where things stand in topeka pressed up to speed on where things are in the rest of the state if you're not on the campus of a public university or college in kansas

where can you currently legally carry a concealed weapon well the way the laws are written here in kansas it's most public buildings must allow people to carry a concealed weapon on last they install security measures like metal detectors and have staff so that they can make sure no one has any guns and the idea is that unless you have security in place to make sure no one has guns people should be allowed to carry a concealed weapon to defend themselves that what supporters of the law say are so affectively you know most public places are affected by this law and for many of them it's already taken effect but there are certain classes of facilities that were given a four year exemption or universities as you mentioned but also hospital's public hospitals as well as public mental health facilities those types of places are currently operating under an exemption that ends later this year stephen what was the thinking behind that

july first extension i think for a lot of the facilities it was to let them determine how they want to handle this cause when you have something like a university obviously it's a big campus and there's a lots of different buildings and lots of different types of building so it gave them time to develop policies figure out what they were going to do if they were going to try to continue barring guns by installing security or put policies in place and let people carry on campus and in buildings the kansas legislature is back in session this week what's the likelihood that they'll take up that issue and what might that look like if they do so well as mr recording right now they haven't taken it up but it's widely expected that they will announce for a couple reasons i there's been discussion earlier in the session that they decided to kind of wait and democrats especially have said they're going to try to bring it up but it's also being complicated by this issue of state mental health facilities because of the state mental hospitals are one of

the types of facilities that have an exemption now and the governor has asked for twenty four million dollars to install security measures at them so they can continue barring guns and the secretary of the kansas department for aging and disability services tim keck has advocated either for that or i he wants even more for them to have an exemption made permanent so if they bring up a bill to give an exemption to these state hospitals it's very likely people are going to be arguing well if we're given an exemption to them was also add an exemption for university he's our public hospitals or those types of facilities so at this point we haven't had the discussion we're expecting it will either be brought up through a bill like i was just talking about or people who want to change a lot of my also make an effort through a procedural motion to bring up a bill that could then be amended to change the state law stephen how active have reasons institutions bank a uk stay in the lobbying one where the other so far you know they really have kind

of not advocated for change in the law the policy that the board of regents has taken has been but we're going to implement the law we're going to direct universities to develop policies related to this but they're not actively saying the policy of the state law should be changed so a lot of the activity has been done by advocacy groups there have been these surveys commissioner that i show that state students and employees in most cases the majority of them don't want this in their been advocacy groups saying look we don't want to send our kids to a camp is that will allow firearms so that kind of thing is that all been going on there's been public hearings about it of course the nra and other firearms groups have been saying look this is about allowing people to protect themselves their constitutional rights to protect yourselves don't hand on a university campus there's been a lot of back and forth on that but the universities themselves and the board of regents have kind of stayed out of it to a large degree so as of july

first if you're twenty one years or older and you can legally carry a concealed weapon in the state of kansas you'll build i carry that handgun on campus steven how are the universities and colleges around kansas getting ready for the july first deadline well they've been developing policies and this has been kind of one of the issues of contention for people so their policies like i forget which university it is but one says you know you can't have a round in the chamber of a firearm or the fire must be carried in a certain way and so they've been putting policies in place as they're allowed to under law although there are some supporters of the law said the policies they're putting in place are making an impractical to carry a weapon as you're allowed to under the law the universities it looks like a largely are not going to be installing security because of one of their arguments kind of against this before it took effect was that it would be very expensive for them to install security at all the buildings and think about m university like the university of kansas i mean they have a i don't know how many buildings but many many buildings that would

need security at all the entrances if they wanted to continue barring guns so what they're doing is it looks like a couple universities are going to plan on having security at certain of then so for example maybe a big sporting event people would have to go through metal detectors and that would be their way of barring guns at events like that about they wouldn't be trying to wholesale bar guns in university buildings any predictions about it the legislature takes about which way would that go for a while the people who want to change the law thought they had the votes but they could not get a bill out of committee the way that the makeup of the committees in the house and senate where they just didn't have enough people who want to change the law to approve a bill and send it to the full chamber for consideration but people who want to change the law thought that if they could get a bill on the floor or bring an above the line using a procedural motion that they would have the votes to change the law so what we had earlier this session was that they did

make a motion to bring a bowl above the line but even a lot of people who might be interested in changing the law i decided not to vote for that because there have been some kind of a closed door negotiations going on in some kind of compromise some previously they decided to not let debate on this move forward you know if a bill does make it to the floor that can be amended i think he could really go either way there are a lot of people who want to change it but there are some people who even other interested in changing it they wanna hold out for some kind of compromise so at this point i can say either way but i do expect it'll come up and when it does it'll probably be a big fight that's k pr statehouse bureau chief stephen koranda recorded earlier this week today on k pierre presents the pros and cons of concealed carry on campus can do public radio and the lord's public library recently held a community conversation on that topic it was the inaugural event in a new series points of view moderated by kbr news director jay

shafer by the summer of twenty seventeen every university staff member faculty member and every student who is at least twenty one or older and who is legally able to possess a firearm will be allowed to carry a concealed firearm on campus a number of k professors staff members and even some students think this is a bad idea those professors is here with us tonight professor tom stacy joined the k u faculty in nineteen eighty six he specializes in the constitution like to welcome professor stacy cry as for the opposing point of view well what about those who feel the second amendment rights don't stop when you set foot on the college campus for that i reached out to the kansas state rifle association the kansas chapter of the nra this is the group that advocates

for second amendment rights in fact it is the crew that lobbied the kansas legislature for new gun laws including open carrying concealed carry i repeatedly invited the president of the kansas state rifle association to join us she was largely unresponsive never making herself available never offering a substitute representative undeterred i reached out to an individual board member of the kansas state rifle association i didn't get anywhere without requesting either bought after thinking about it i finally found someone else who could join us is not with the kansas state rifle association but he is an expert on firearms and is a proud advocate of second amendment rights i would like to welcome michael dan of the kansas firearms training outfit here in lawrence and michael thanks for making herself available at literally the eleventh hour to be on our panel among other things michael up provided

firearms training to people particularly those who wish to carry concealed weapons is also a competitive shooter enters provided hunter safety courses it's not just a gun guy though he's a retired banker and investment advisor but let's get started professor why do you feel that having students and staff on campus carrying concealed weapons is a bad idea the rationale for the laws is really self defense and i don't believe that for a home really contributes much to self defense i don't regard it really is within the right of self defense and beyond that i think it threatens to make a less safe and also threatens to compromise the university's mission which involves cultivating in facilitating a robust exchange of diverse ideas are especially on controversial and uncomfortable topics you do as a constitutional law professor recognize that the us supreme court has given us all as

individuals the right to personally bear firearms why should that right be curtailed on a college campus why should my rights and if i have a second amendment right on the k u doorstep well this really isn't a sudden i'm in the discussion so you arrive in two thousand and eight united states supreme court in district of columbia vs heller held that the second amendment gives rise to an individual's right to possess handguns in the for purposes of self defense but in the course of its opinion the court said quote nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings so the kansas law that we're talking about our creates a right to carry concealed weapons in university buildings including

classrooms and on that is clearly not within the parameters of the second amendment right recognized by the supreme court in michael bennett's get you to weigh in on some of the specifics of the law open carry is allowed here in kansas and concealed carry without a permit is now allowed and in the summer of next year concealed carry on college campuses and in most public buildings will be allowed you can compare he's a parishioner james i'd like to begin by saying i think every single person this roman claim on the people appear on the payroll wants a safe environment to live to work to eat to recreate to do the things we do what we're talking about today is a difference in what we think makes us safer so the kansas

legislature as you indicated past the family protection law is the the short title for that which gave the right for people who attended training classes met certain standards half again as tom indicated that do not have disqualifying felonies and other things which would keep them from a weekly on firearms to carry concealed in the state of kansas and twenty fifteen at the legislature added to that what people proper we call constitutional carrots oral care which dances every month firearm you can carry openly there were for municipalities or counties in the state of kansas which challenge the right of the state to promote open carry in their environment are one of those was suda they gave up

and modified their ordinance passed so that it did permit open carry and the other theory city's capitulation so to clarify all of the counties and cities in kansas permit open carry permit concealed carry for those have a license and now also was or solar twenty fifteen legislation were met anyone who can openly carry as i explain to people basically pick your pocket so i'm sure you can carry a concealed without license anywhere you could also carry openly like a barely throw question your weight do you do you at least recognize the concern that many college students and staff members have about the prevalence of guns on campus it's a scary thought for a lot of people i've talked to many of them and somewhat intimidating to think that the person next to them as absolutely

i grew up on homework farms were not permitted at all not even bb guns they were evil nasty things and i helped that is most of the students use of our parents and to my big one is when i moved to chicago and it struck me with my two young boys that i alone was responsible for their protection and for shin the law is responsible along forced another agency but their immediate protection against a violent attack was up to me that's when i began to get involved with fire so that same concern i understand absolutely with everyone in the audience on campus maybe a listing that there is a concern about kevin another gun that doesn't create safety my experience has told me that if a responsible lawful service and has that gone it actually

can get to safety what about the idea and i'll ask both of you this question what about the idea that our students and professors discourage the free and open exchange of ideas the heated discussions could get out of hand perhaps turned violent that would seem to be one of your concerns professor emeritus yeah i mean i think there are a number of grounds for concern well there's a lot of social science literature but really you don't need to look at social science literature look at one's own life history to know that young people are more incredulous and less able to control your impulses young people are more passionate young people are going through some major stress is huge social pressures academic competition lesser of future that as more uncertain than alone that's ever been i think also

you know college age is when a lot of mental illness manifests itself for the first time and so when you put all that together with guns has a very combustible mix and there's a risk of accidents particularly since the legislature hasn't abolish the requirement that that there'd be a permanent enhanced training for concealed carry on campus also there's a risk i mean is it a genuine own and i think you know well founded concern for intimidation i talk to my students and many of them were very concerned about the prospect of discussing hot button issues you know in the queue campus we've we've had heated and passionate discussions about issues involving race and gender and the students have expressed to me that they will be more reluctant to express their views knowing that fellow classmates made

maybe i'll have to have any of these heated discussions turn violent even in the absence of of guns now on that has come to fisticuffs in your gasoline i've also talked to students at the law school who are very much in support of the idea of concealed carry and for the most part i mean they're very sober responsible people a lot of them are ex military or ex police officers and you know knowing this i guess i'm hopeful that there will be incidents bob on you know i'm teaching students and the students are telling me that they wore on they will moderate what they say they won't speak as freely in class and that compromise is a core mission of the university which is want to teach own principles and values of citizenship which

involves you know respectful of consideration and exchange of ideas on a hot dog topics are into it compromises university's mission of solution for that so if i could summarize your two main concerns want our safety to that the mere presence of concealed carry on campus could curtail the free and open expression of of ideas basically first amendment right right and it i guess i would support the latter well i have another concerned that i want to talk about but yes also to my concerns that put together with my third reason you believe that this law is misguided another concern is that i think it has very little to protection and ought not to be regarded as part of any any kind of right of self defense arm but i'm hungry the score of concealed carry compromising the

university's mission on the cans boards every border regions conducted a survey in late december of this past year cat and i think the figure was something like sixty some percent of faculty said that the presence of concealed carry on campus would cause untold for the way they teach this is something that i'm on are only hearing a concern that i'm now hearing from my students are you know was a concern that that the faculty members as well i personally i don't change the way i teach i mean students with whom i've talked to were interested in engaging in concealed carry as as i said there are silver and richer students but on a lot of other faculty members are very concerned students are telling me the temperate the expression of their views on at the university of texas a group of faculty members have filed a lawsuit contending that the texas law which

requires the university of texas to permit concealed carry on campus is a violation of the first amendment and tv using a different streets are together university plays a crucial role in promoting home values of sedition ship an expression of ideas on and concealed carry and do we compromise that'll be good like damn target away in a little bit here well what about safety concerns and somewhat though professor has expressed perhaps the curtailing of a dialogue on campus which ideally we will absolutely and again we all want the same time we want a safe environment for sales our children our friends our associates are the questions just how we get cheaper there so i'm like to speak to a couple of things there one i don't think universities are the only place in our society where we get heated discussions we do that where

we do it and in public forums put on forums like this so i think it is a false promise to think that's the only place where their might be heated discussions and therefore harming that deserves special treatment secondly experience that will help lead us to the right answer every one of these concerns a believer very real and i believe tom and many faculty members believe that but i go back to fifteen years ago when i love the group which held the legislature passed the force of concealed carry legislation state kansas which was vetoed by the governor several years later passed again a second governor vetoed that bill while we finally have one plot during that time all every one of the arguments dad were wearing and discussion all column arguments against work out but at the same time that we get people

running amok on the streets and every time there was an automobile accident somebody would get out of the car shoots somebody because i know that i've done on them under a permit are now permit or scary it didn't turn out to be true in fact in universities their one hundred and forty four campuses in the united states today which the carrying of concealed firearms by people point one years and older who do not help and a disqualifying conditions which would i let them know on the fire pj there spent fifteen hundred semesters that have gone by and there has not been warned now on lawful shooting on those campuses so the facts have shown that that doesn't happen it's oriented concerned there've been three unintended discharges to my family and none of

those three was anybody hurt so i didn't address that because that show it comes up so again i understand the concerns bob i have a daughter lawsuit is terrified of slime of chocolate cherry on the pilot i can talk to role play along unless i could never get her in an aircraft she might find you know that doesn't automatically fall out of the sky all these things back into carriers' just don't happen again to speak to an issue i think thomas right to take an eighteen nineteen year old separated from their family or one of my missions she discover boys beer and pizza when she went to college up by pollution visionary criminal activity would boycott was going through her hair out by the times about a faction that up for you now and this does make it clear that the concealed carry law only was those twenty one and over

forty one year old not the eighteen nineteen twenty year olds it's only twenty one and older so we're going to have people are by nature going to be older and more mature add more life experiences and so i think we're at least likely to see that kind of issue will rise from now looks like we might have a question from the audience if you could just tell us your name maybe where you're from what your question or a comment is money is joseph and i actually am steve novick a un also its military bomb this is the fourth for the twenty one and over our imaginations and ahmed says you professor probably know that at least once a year we have to take a survey online or not serve is not the right word moral equivalence to make sure that we know the dangers of underage drinking which also as you all know as of twenty

one so i'm wondering we already know what people who are not twenty one will do to get around the laws they're supposed to be restrictive it could be doing that now they could be at one of the houses you have to be twenty one to drink and people wearing people ignore a lot of the law they do it a lot my roommate does it all the time there are they're drinking establishment in town there well known for being kind of loose looking way other way with their identification so i'm wondering just because this was supposed to be for your people twenty one and over what is to stop an eighteen nineteen or twenty rule from concealed carry over the market other than breaking the law i would say nothing i speak to that there's nothing that the law is

going to do to stop peppers that's what law enforcement is all about that it discovered the law enforcement process moves into action years dont really scary time folks those people who want to carry a gun illegally are already doing it in ever every one of your classes there's a possibility that somebody is carrying the farm unlawfully also share with you in many real classes there are concealed firearms being carried right now there had been for years law enforcement officers are exempt from all prohibitions on the canary of firearms does anybody are known for sinatra going to college taking classes the university i can virtually guarantee that their care

because they never caught that current far so there's already firearms their most unlawful there are going to be unlawful terrors and the only thing i can suggest as jamaica authorities professor there is a significant difference there that has to be recognized if one so one suspects that another student is carrying out a concealed weapon now that's a violation of the law and it's reported that the campus police to campus police have probable cause to question a student and a student is discovered two ever gone to take the gun away and brought under the law on you know what we call the campus police and you say i see somebody's caring and gone the campus police will have to say well is that social alarm does that person look like he or she is over

twenty one unless there is probable cause to believe that the student is over twenty one there's nothing that that can be done and so you know that can be expected to increase in the incidence of lawbreaking so i think that's a direct effect today that that has already occurred when open carry came through in twenty fifteen as a matter fact there's several groups are opposed to firearms and they abdicated their membership they see somebody openly carrying the gun to call nine one one and then proclaimed loudly that the ionian xyz store in there somebody there with the dog it took training of the law enforcement to be allowed to approach that situation prepared to deal with what may be a robber or somebody assault when somebody and determine whether they were lawfully are not lawfully during that far the court the question is whether britain such as this and i agree with your characterization you pitch you

can't characterize this as an experiment i agree there are many states that have laws like kansas and those that do uncle was really haven't been in place for very warts we can't really look at a war base of experience it is kind of an experiment and the question is whether the experiment which is an experiment with the wife ong is is worthwhile and on you know what was the real all i've been here since nineteen eighty six i am unaware of any uses of armed robbery or any kind of assault with a weapon in k u buildings and classrooms during during business hours so this law it's really not necessary or to safeguard the rights of four students and faculty members to defend themselves against the risk of ordinary violent crime it just doesnt occur in university buildings and classrooms during business hours at least you know

i i've been here since nineteen eighty six i can ever recall a single instance of course it in two thousand seven the virginia tech massacre write a year ago this month a community college near rosenberg oregon have issued around him as an investor students that's where the discussion should focus should focus on whether the burns we've been talking about the roots of compromising the university's mission the risk of compromising own safety on is worth on you know the speculative the denizens of half addressing an activist shoot it happy to talk about you know i don't think of the expected elephants are significant role if i could take her today we hail as certainly have come on campus that i'm not sure there's anybody who doesn't believe there may have been some crimes that happened that i haven't been directly advertise but again i've lived here for twenty three

years until like you professor i'm unaware of any while one to close calls for attacks like this by university modern business our classrooms and sober but there have been in this country and they didn't buy the poor john alroy at stake relationship issue at girlfriend that went from the center of several the second has been the well publicized events well the last seven eight years which have been mass shootings which i've studied extensively on through professor has as well because he teaches criminal law these people have been looking for a high body count it's gruesome to say the safety issue comes and what we'll call it won't say how many people never attacked a police station how many people ever go to the police training or other than a whole region of that is the result

of three years ago with in oklahoma they don't do that because of dc march you can't run up a high body count because you get taken out before that happens the halo effect is if somebody knows that there may be people in the classroom who are legally armed they're less likely to choose it mr stacy how would you respond to that well a number of active shooting incidents have occurred and military bases and talk about situations where people are armed that they'll vote for but they were not and maybe you maybe referencing other ones but it before the shooting people who were shot were not armed those soldiers but i mean if someone who was selecting ones targeted based on kind of the soft target thierry one would not use the military base there

are just virtual remote are based united states does not permit it was personal to have personal firearms and always shirt off for sure want to have firearms on the base there was an armory when it go off practitioner go to were eager to take but fort riley in fort leavenworth it's the andes and the guards on duty that have firearms and not the soldiers that building on the base but beyond that the evidence indicates that active shooters don't kind of you know do kind of the campus of possible targets rather these are people who are mentally unstable own family select their targets because they have some grievance along with persons you in the end in the area so you know i really don't think that this issue is in general do this but you're the fbi did a study of all active shootings between two thousand and two thousand and thirteen and they concluded that

on there were a hundred and sixty incidents twelve of those involved institutions of higher learning and unfortunately you know sixty people in those incidents will kill innocent quiz virginia tech shooting on and sixty were were injured and according to my very rough back of the head calculations though the risk of being of the student or faculty member's staff member experience some kind of encounter with an active shooter knew in which injuries inflicted is less than one one in a million so the risk is really miniscule on and also handguns are really not an adequate means of protection in many of these incidents in many of these incidents the active shooters armed with numerous some role automatic recent semi automatic weapons body armor

and also they're all alternatives on your campus police response times you know we have a relatively compacted campus geographically and the campus police can respond quickly on our campus police have been trained in how to respond to an active shooter as there's also training in an armed resistance at the law school we we have some people come over from fort leavenworth to train us in on armed resistance to active shooting incidents and the fbi study found that along in twenty one of the hundred and sixty incidents were on our citizens make the selfless and deeply personal choices to face the danger of an active shooter on the sit in those instances the citizens safely and successfully disrupt the shootings so you know there are there alternatives to i think the bottom line is the

schools are still statistically an extremely safe place to be and your risk of getting killed by a shooter on campus an active shooter are pretty minuscule exactly say this isn't a solution for a tiny problem if i can summarize his energy yet we're we're undertaking an experiment at the extent of risking wizened and the mission of the university to address a miniscule risk that is not well addressed by possession of handguns and for which there are other alternatives and if the legislature had said let's work together to increase the response time of campus police if the legislature had so much work together to train students staff and faculty in resistance techniques we were that we would welcome that but instead in this combustible mix of color students stressed out students students with impulse control problems you know

dave interviews gone say just doesn't make any sense to me let me bring in another audience member here has been patiently waiting with either a questionnaire statement tell us your name in order from my name's patrick i live here in moore it's an email answer this question in parts throughout the discussion but let's say white the rarer thing happens like we have an active shooter situation like jackie you and if analysts also say that we have a couple people students or faculty who are carrying under this new law nearby like in the same building how can we expect this to play out like all this incident and very quickly because they have guns though they accidentally and uprooting more people because they're not trained for his training really advisable michael what extent that yes like estrogen that an impression that's a great question of supply can show that that that suddenly attempting to defend will scribble

tolerant point biden speak to have a couple of things that came out james holmes in colorado who killed all those people in the theater there's a the theater at least two times they have on tape to the plan has attacked he drove past three theater complex is from where he lived to go there because that was the only time they were complex of the four in the cover up that had posted a note here so i unfortunately disputes a strong war with these people to plant at virginia tech he drove his car to the backdoor part to two inches from the back door so that the war couldn't be open now work he went to the front he chained and padlock on the front door so that the

head killing time and space to kill people so people to play an active shooter tj who planned these things that look at in terms of the danger till they were my classes you or not law enforcement you're not there to be a long for speaker if you're carrying a gun defend yourself against a deadly threat they're shooting statistics of people who do use a gun to defend themselves they're far more accurate than police and i'm not talking points it's because their joint close to contact distance they know who the attacker is that's all they need to do their trade fair i spent a good guy apprehend people whatsoever so the marksmanship actually was much much higher you were in charge of the bear died not hidden up the good guy we don't advocate that people still use that we have guns to try to clear a hallway to try to run them another floor and take out the bad guy there there to protect the

environment there and people do a pretty good job of that i'm very good friends with a job interview developed and as the chief trainer for the school central program in south dakota which is the first state sponsored training program put firearms in k through twelve schools he just completed the first training class all that required at our snack class there were six shots fire that could have been dangerous in terms of going through the wall or hitting somebody else all the rest of the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of rounds hit their intended targets we got another question here stepped forward to the microphone certain what her name where you're from what question this is alan and on the return for a number of k you have been here for many years i really had three questions that i hope that i can get them briefly said and that you can

all remember them sell it can answer was that the first one first first of all oh michael then you have the time you're involved with training of fire is so what do you think of the law that says it's time training and permits and i mean this might be an individual or two things while i'm a bicyclist for prostitution lost and i believe that we have a reit provided to us by the founders to have firearms for a number of reasons not just having one of those defense i on the other hand did not participate in the open carry campaign i resigned his treasure of an organization that was a part of a lawsuit and pushing for open carry because i would prefer when i'm sitting in a restaurant and i know there's other people in the room were armed that i and my wife would be safe and not hit with

unintended shops but the constitution of road by conscious and so i couldn't fire open care question to you a sad day military bases do not allow firearms in their faces why yes that's call looks qualified there are other firearms and certainly an airfield m sixteens if you will fully automatic machine guns on military bases but not everyone is allowed to have them at the same time absolutely saw it gregory soldiers cannot carry her on military base that is truly be amateurs and the police know why but people should be able to have guns on campus when they kept on military bases the reason that most base commanders do not met a nurse was revisited after the four are shooting is just what the professor spoke about with eighteen

nineteen twenty year olds way from home either is accessed our caller is our access to drugs etc and the feeling of virtually every base commander in this country is that those people were not responsible people who should have firearms mobile son went through this interesting only on the price by twenty two years old his commanding officer ask him to carry a commercial firearm because he felt he was well responsible parties but the reason is just what you said eighteen writing clearer olds cause much disruption in their lives to safely carry firearms all the time good point it seems you know stew firearms and on military bases to allow home on campus visits are

turned upside down there've been a lot of police shootings recently and one reason that they say that they're just far is that the individual who is far better secondly if a person and the police arrived and there were gods how did they decide on so in other words what is the role of these guys if indeed in the eyes of police going to do enough i would have given this panel discussion more thought i would have brought a police officer in and somebody from fort riley or fort leavenworth is my health my apologies but we'll do the best we can if i may speak to that the active shooter situations we see this is a picture book also in social salts that's aim at the ice that all the while ostensibly over in thirty seconds in an active shooter situation on average one person dies

every twenty seconds for a permanent the average response time a long porch that maybe five to seven to ten minutes and it was because you were the first to come up the resource officers and as was far enough to take out the cops first up over the lives and one and in fact re entered the building to engage going clean ball but i've been so we have a situation abbas joey over before the police get there that's why the self defense of farmers to let me defend myself in virtually every case where one fourth monsters called the scene of the shooting they know that there's a big dark now in a bad dire now but how do they make that distinction when you when you show up you know the collier family suvs or they're trying to say and then i have to be cautious to like determined that works a single individual and it was in those shots

fired situation we have those situations where people count on court but normally there's only been one case documented cases where a license concealed carry are defending themselves was shot while on force officer one and we have forty four states that permit concealed carry so damaged bridges told us it doesn't happen it's over just like fifty people in my class when you're done the first time you see a law enforcement officer you drop your fire professor stacy yeah i have a question for a fur from his tradition i'm not an extra penny means in how to respond to active shooters but some of the things that you're saying conflict with the training that we received from on the fort leavenworth people own and with what they told us is that the first thing to do is to run it that that's the

safest thing to do on the land that using a firearm can be very dangerous one of the reason i mention because our motions active shooters you're often are our art you know the active shooter has numerous automatic or semi automatic weapons and the body armor to move up but another risk is that when the police show up in general we don't know how long he actually was going on so you don't know where you are in the window of time it takes for the police to respond so if the police show up and you're resisting an active shooter on the first inclination of police is often tissue so you actually put yourself in considerable danger body resist with a fire actually see if you could address the i'm guessing the conflict between what

i'm hearing from you an order from the fort leavenworth migration i'm guessing that if a police officer shows and says drop your weapon the good guy with a gun will drop is in the bat that presumably will frame somebody would try to drop the weapon right away but in one beach out there was a picture that poor ethical all way back which is set at the beginning of this was my right to defend myself against an attack why is it then that the camp store because these very same things were talking that happen and restaurants and stores happen and malls happen anywhere in public where somebody can carry a fire so these risks robbery that number two if i got shot by a long force an officer in fact was dying on the ground because it was my gun to defend myself against an active shooter i'd say at least i have a chance to get shot by the good die

rather looked that got them i'm not to defend myself with a firearm and what was so be shocked by an active shooter because one foresaw from a come on the same issue we have one case documented that canada had been absolutely certain point cannot happen but it just hasn't because law enforcement response times on portrait is of it usually over this is important because as you know the object of the law is it's at self defense and safety and i'm hearing conflicting things i mean do you agree with the fort leavenworth trainers that's the safest thing to do whether or not your arm is drawn i you know i would like to know just for my own personal absolutely right that i kept up by the houston article run hide fight if you are an environment where your gunshots and you can get out or get out a window

you know and i would run to another project a campus and their protect myself to do if the sharks are going to prevent children safely actually in the building then hie hie as well as you can if you are discovered by the active shooter than fight with every julia have a target command because the assumption is they just want to as another body cam so absolutely absolutely support run hide fight is just what comes to fight i want to have a firearm that i want people twenty one years and the variation of older rural of lawful citizens because i went to the same background check police do before they get hired by police department to get my concealed carry license just as thorough just as complex as eleven investigators in the office chavez to somebody applying for lifestyle again where we have open

carry that constitutional issue bloc so i fully support run hide fight i just wanna have a firearm if i i do disagree will unearth and say you're safer off without a gun that is school was pretty calm on they've learned since then especially with active shooters that's not affected response to visit even if you haven't gone first thing to do is to run i think we run hide fight in the order wrong life it our absolute let's get another question from our audience that tells the armory from what your question is hi there my name is christine an imo old lawrence president over the past twelve years in this town i have been a nine one one operator as suicide prevention lifeline volunteer and i now work at the little nasty violent center so you might have already guessed that it's changed the course of this

conversation just a little bit from active shooters and talk about the personal risk that i think is is really one of my huge concerns and one of the reasons that i joined that newly for imports chapter of moms demand action which hurt my concern is the personal safety when it comes to violence against oneself a war against somebody else and sadly twenty one is not a magic number that not by a long shot for youth ages ten to twenty four suicide is the third leading cause of death and most of those deaths are by firearms and for college kids ages eighteen to twenty four one in three women and their life's experience has domestic violence and one in six men do those statistics alone are staggering to me and for most of us when you're eighteen to twenty

four we have those first experiences in the state of kansas at domestic violence homicide occurs every twelve days that's according to the kb i am the majority of those are due to fire on violence there is violence research that we know but there is some domestic violence research and the link between guns and fatal domestic violence is so strong that research shows that's simply living in a state with a high rate of firearm ownership increases the risk of being fatally shot two thousand women typically die every year in the united states to their domestic violent homicide and most of those are due to firearms i read an article last week that for every two thousand women who are now dead

fifteen people were able to successfully defend themselves with their accuser that is not safe and folks your risk for suicide last say thank you for your information goes to a larger issue of guns outside of campus and also might have some implications for what happens on campus if we allowed concealed carry me read these are students who are experiencing rejection and separation often for the first time on this emotionally stressful interview at comes to that next on and on it is it's not a happy combination you've been listening to points of view and new collaboration between kansas public radio and the warrant public library and this point of view the pros and cons of concealed carry on campus this event was moderated by kbr news director jay shafer and featured university of kansas law professor

tom stacy and firearms safety trainer michael dan i'm j mcintyre k pr presents is a production of kansas public radio at the university of kansas