Black Horizons; 3301; Without Expression

Favorite sport? Great. Yeah, yeah, yeah, what's that? Welcome to Black Horizons. I'm your host, Chris Moore. Well, we all knew Summer had to end soon or later, but we're glad to be back with our first show of the new season. On tonight's show, we'll find out about the National Black Programming Consortium's next prize pieces, film and video festival and preview a new film. And if you haven't heard about without sanctuary, tonight you'll learn about this important and controversial exhibit coming to the Warhol Museum later in September. But before we get to any of that, the words he'll district and urban renewal are once again being banded about. And if histories taught us anything, it's that these words can sometimes have disastrous

results. You see everybody ever knew. The Rumba Theater and everything else in the lower heel was doomed the day the city opened this urban redevelopment office in the late 50s, as they tore down the theaters, businesses and housing, and entire way of life began to come apart, while the avenue days were coming to a close. Of course, that just destroyed everything. See, urban renewal always means an eager removal. It doesn't help us any. It might help the city, but it doesn't help the minorities at all. This is one of the most devastating things that ever happened to the Black community with the tear out to the lower heel, and where it was done. There was no consideration given to where the Black people were going to go. What was going to happen to the Black businesses? Thousands of people were displaced just to build the civic arena.

All of Wally Avenue below Crawford Street, the part that went to the jail, was destroyed. Well, I tell you, it was a sad feeling, and I've seen all of them building corn out. The Jewish people went one direction, the Italian people went another direction, and the poor college people didn't have much choice to go, but wherever they could. Those people who were uprooted with businesses and people who had homes, I doubt if they were compensated for what they gave up and what they lost. The wrecking crews knocked down the economic -based that fueled the hill. At the same time, the bonds of segregation and discrimination were loosening. As people were forced out of their homes, they left the hill. Living conditions for those who remained started to slide. Kaila Roy Hervus has lived in the hill since 1945. That was from Wally Avenue Days, produced by Doug Bolin and myself back in 1991, and if that film is any representation, you know that people who have lived in the hill district for

a long time have felt left out of planning. But through the work of the Hill Consensus Group, residents now have a form for addressing the changes that affect their lives. Here to tell us about the group and their work is called Redwood, Jr., welcome to our program. Tell us a little bit about the history of the Hill Consensus Group. Basically, the Consensus Group came about as a response to a plan that was put forward to take the hill district away from the residents who lived there. Back in the 1950s, there were 50 ,000 people who lived in the hill district. By the 1990s, there were only 15 ,000 people left. And there was an actual plan to try to join up downtown in Oakland. The hill district is very valuable land. It's located in between the second and third largest central business districts in the whole state of Pennsylvania. When you look at Pennsylvania, downtown Philadelphia is the largest business district. Downtown Pittsburgh is the second largest and Oakland Pittsburgh is the third largest business district in the whole state. There's been plans in discussion around how to join up downtown

in Oakland. But the issue was how did they really get rid of the hill district, at least in the form it was. A lot of old -timeers tell me that they really wanted to break up that ward because of its black political voting strength. They were the first to elect a black ward chairman and on and on and on. And that newfound strength caused them to say, we've got to break this up too, that that was part of it. And that's another impact that happened, in fact, in breaking up the third ward. And the fifth ward somewhat, a really weakened African -American political participation in the Pittsburgh area. Most of the people that were forced out of the hill district ended up moving places like Wilkinsburg, Pen Hills, across the city line. And also weakened the city political power that black people had. I remember talking to Mr. Robert LaVelle, the owner of Dwelling House Savings and Loans. He said one day he was looking through a national geographic and he saw Mayor Barr, the mayor of the city of Pittsburgh in there, with all sorts of plans for the hill district. And he said he was a businessman in the hill district. He lived in the hill district

and nobody had consulted him about that. Is that the kind of thing you're trying to avoid? That's precisely what the consensus group is trying to work towards building unity. In the past, there were a lot of outsider planning for the hill district. Plans came from the outside, various organizations would be consulted. Usually one organization was selected to co -sign on a plan. And that plan would proceed, but it would be an outside plan, somebody else's plan. And then another plan would come along and another organization would co -sign on that. The result of all these outside plans was that the organizations from inside the community started to fight with each other over somebody else's plan, not over our own plans. And organizations by the end of the 1980s weren't even talking to one another. So have you been able to ameliorate any of that at this point? Basically when the consensus groups started in 1990, there was a meeting downtown talking about the phase two of the Crawford Square development. In that meeting there were 30 -some people, over the 30 -some people, there were only four people from the hill district.

After that meeting, some of those four people from the hill district came back and convened a special call meeting of organizations to talk about how local organizations could get more involved in community planning. That was the origins of the consensus group. What year was this? 1990. I've read some of your documents that talk about your various committees. Can you tell me what those committees are? Yeah, we have a safety and security committee that looks at safety and security issues. One of the main projects they're working on is establishing a storefront for social services that will start to deal with one of the biggest issues we have in the hill. In fact, one of your goals is to reduce drug trafficking and some of it may be a little bit dated. I read it about 1998. You want to reduce drug trafficking by something like 50 % or 30%, I can't recall the exact figure. Have you been able to meet those targets? We haven't been able to around, particularly around the open drug trafficking, particularly a center of car patrick. It's a problem that we really need to wrestle with because the key

to developing a business district on center avenue is the removal of the open drug trafficking. Carl, you've got places that are starting to be built. They've broken ground on one hope square or a Williams project. They're plans for the new Grenada. They're slowly businesses are building and creeping that way toward the corner that you're talking about. How is it that that drug activity with a police station, number two police station, not two blocks from there. That drug activity is able to take place in an open -air market. Some would argue that it's allowed to take place. There's probably not as much drug trafficking as center of car patrick as there is amount 11. But it's very open. Anybody can see it almost any time in a day. I'm not trying to say that everybody at center of car patrick is involved in drug dealing. There's a lot of other activity there too. But it's a problem that we really have to wrestle with and as a community we need to develop a solution. We've left it to the police, we've left it to others, but they're not able to

deal with it. We're going to have to figure out how to wrestle with it. One of your other committees is an education committee and I read that you want to decrease the drop -out rate and the retention rate of students who stay in school. How is that going? We have some of the finest schools in Pittsburgh and some of the least fine schools in Pittsburgh in the hill district. Madison School has been an exemplary school in mathematics and reading a journal for the students. Miller is a very good school with the African -centered academy. However, some of the schools, not magnet, but a science and technology program. But the performance is not necessarily where it should be in all the schools and we as residents and as community organizations need to find out how we help teachers and administrators in the schools to improve so our children can get the best possible future. What other committees do you have there about three others? We have the Economic Development Committee and the main in our earlier plan, we look at the Center Avenue Business Corridor as we work towards developing

a new master plan for a hill district development. You can see some progress there in the bricks and mortar alone. We'll also see some new developments on Heron Avenue shortly, which is another main corridor into our community. In addition, we have a number of different development committees that either do economic development or housing development. Like the Shenley Heights Community Development Corporation, the Hill Community Development Corporation, Warren Church has built in a new residence on Center Avenue. Central Baptist Church has announced plans for major development near the corner of Center and Kirkpatrick. There's also development being planned by other entities in the community. And you mentioned Irv Williams, a private developer who lives in the neighborhood has taken on a number of projects, some of which have been completed and others of which are in the stages. What is that grocery store going to come back to the Hill? Grocery store is another very hard issue. It's been a problem at locating an operator for a grocery store. The initial site was in the AUBA Triangle Shop, immediately across from the Hill House.

They had talked for years about bringing a grocery store back. The problem has been in securing an operator. There have been efforts to secure an operator for that location. There needs to be more support from the Urban Redevelopment Authority and others. There's also an alternative plan being put forward recently to locate a grocery store right at Center and Kirkpatrick. And the consensus group will be discussing that at our next meeting. We meet on the second Friday of every month. One of the things people have to look at who reside in the Hill and look for that kind of development is that development is a long, slow and arduous process. Do you think the people you're trying to keep informed, understand that? That a grocery store just doesn't pop there overnight for a whole lot of different reasons? Yeah, people don't understand the whole thing. They don't understand that you have to have an operator that's willing to locate there. And just because there's a need from the community doesn't mean that the grocery store operator will see that same need. Because the grocery store operator is counting how much money they can make.

And if they feel they can't make enough money, then they're not going to come. They may also look at the efforts that happened right across from the Hill House where drug stores seem to be doing quite well there. And then it closed. How is the bank and the cleaners and the subway doing that went into that location where a store was once? The bank and the cleaners were still doing fine. The subway in the process of changing ownership, they actually shut down for a while and had been shut down. So we need to combat a potential decline in AUBA shops. That's why we need to keep our focus on AUBA Triangle shops to build that up rather than switching our focus totally to other locations in the community. This is a difficult process and it's a long haul process. What would you advise our viewers and people who are residents in the Hill to know about the efforts that the consensus group is trying to do? I think the most important thing is as residents we need to be aware of the plans that people have for our community. Come to the meetings that you come. Come to the meeting,

read about it in the paper. However you can read about it. To keep on top of potential developments. Because all potential developments don't become real. So they hear the talk in the community and when it doesn't become a reality, everybody gets disappointed. And part of what makes it a reality is our involvement. If we get involved and are supportive, we can make things happen in the Hill district. All right. Well, thank you for coming out, Carla. I really appreciate it. Keeping our listeners and viewers informed on what you're doing in the Hill district. It's important work. Thank you for the Hill. You can contact the Hill Consensus Group by giving them a call. The number is 412 -681 -1619. That number again, 412 -681 -1619. What it looks like it's going to be a busy year. So grab pen and paper for a look at our community calendar on the horizon. What's that? Yeah.

Yeah. I want a big hat now. Wait, wait a minute. Who will be who will be jazzy, funky, house, dance as we dip in the melodic scene. But then please throw in the drips that I will see. Sweet sugar pop, sugar pop, rocks pop. You don't stop till the sweet beat drops. I show them food that's a stick and move. Vivi Ponds will sign it on top of the pool. It's moved my floating like a butterfly. Instead of floating, something like a lullaby breaks itself. As the beat hits your dip truck. It hits your dip truck. It hits your dip truck. It hits your dip truck. What's that? If you got an event you or your group would like to promote, send it to on the horizon, 4802 -5th Avenue, Pittsburgh PA -15213. On September 22nd, the Andy Warhol Museum will open a new exhibition called Without Sanctuary, lynching photography in America. The exhibit features deeply disturbing images of

mostly African -American victims of lynch mobs that terrorize the country from the late 1800s through the 1950s. I must warn you that we will be showing some of these images during this interview and that they are again very disturbing. Here to tell us more about Without Sanctuary and its community outreach component is Warhol Museum Director, Thomas Sokolowski. And with the community advisory group pastor of the Lincoln Avenue Church of Guard, Mark Richardson. And Betty Pickett, Director of the National Conference for Community and Justice. Mr. Sokolowski, let me ask you why I present this exhibit. Every time I talk about race or racism or lynching or anything on KDK, another place where I work, people say you're just dragging up the past. Let's forget all about that and move on from here. Why present this? This is pretty disturbing. Well, to answer that, I suppose a famous philosopher once said, if we don't remember and acknowledge the mistakes of the past,

we're doomed to repeat them. And we certainly know about the tragedies that happened here in Pittsburgh. They may not have been lynchings per se, but brutal race -related and intolerance -related crimes. Matthew Shepherd several years ago. And I think the notion was that perhaps these images are so indelible that even though people have heard stories about lynchings, until you see them, does it, is the story not really brought home? That whole added, you know, of a picture is worth a thousand words. Well, in each one of these pictures, there is a history of a thousand people and a thousand years of bigotry and intolerance. And we felt that the world of art and the world of communities is about sharing those kinds of jolting experiences. You said in the earlier interview that development is a long history and a long process. And I think images, something that's indelible that way, can jolt that process into happening more quickly. And we felt that in, if the museum and any cultural institution should be a place to change

its community, not just by showing nice things, but by bringing and making a conduit so that community can help itself to move forward, to heal itself if that's necessary, to vent when that's necessary. And we felt this show was all about that. And in a sense, it was like Andy Warhol's art, because some people may say, why at the Warhol? Well, he did pictures of race riots and car crashes. The same sort of very intense images that at one point we would have put on are the front pages of our newspapers like the Pittsburgh Courier did, and now we'd be afraid to do so. So you see the Warhol and art is a catalyst for change. Oh, my God, yes. Because I think in this culture, rightly or wrongly, we've made art museums. These high places, almost like churches, if I could say, Padcha to Pastor Richardson. But if people can come into the museum, and maybe people who are far more knowledgeable about this issue, than we at the museum are, who've been talking about racial, and all sorts of religious bigotry for a long time, but come to a different place in the community, and maybe through a different kind of conduit, the discussion can

change and may be moved forward a little bit more quickly. Pastor Richardson, you see a purpose in this. Is there a cathartic release that we get from examining this horrible past of America? I think definitely there is a release. I think one of the reasons why I've gotten involved in the project is, first of all, I was asked to, but secondly, I think it's an opportunity for the Pittsburgh community, not just the Pittsburgh Black community or the Pittsburgh White community, but the Pittsburgh community, to understand, first of all, the past, and use it as a vehicle for people to come together and understand how we can move beyond where we are. I deal with people in the African -American community primarily, because most of my members are African -Americans, and many of them are stuck in an area dealing with the past. How do we get beyond some of these issues? Stuck in what way? Stuck from the perspective that we still deal with the institutions of racism, even though we don't see lynchings happening

and people standing around and celebrating them, like you will see in these images, but we still deal with the institutions that hinder our people from moving forward and really fully participating in the community. All right, I don't have to ask Betty Pickett about being a catalyst for change ever since her days at Fisk University and on and on and on. I know your whole background and your pedigree. You have acted as a catalyst for change in many of the various organizations that you have had it or been involved with in various capacities. Let's talk about the work itself that we will see. Have you looked at the book without sanctuary? I haven't seen the whole book, and I've looked at some of the images, and they will make your hair stand up on edge. And I think in following up on what Pastor Richardson said, because I do a lot of work with kids, and when we look at institutional racism, we have to look at education as contributing to some of this. You will never see these images in a history book with good reason, because they are very disturbing. But by the same token, our young

people have no clue as to what the history of America is. This isn't just black history. This is America's history. And as long as we continue to live in denial, that these kinds of things exist, then we'll never be able to get past it. These institutions will continue to feed on this. You talk about history, and it's not just black history, it's American history. Not every victim portrayed in the book is black, and not every victim is a male. Right. Have you seen the pictures of the women who would lynch the black women who would lynch? And as the only woman here, let me just ask, did that speak to you in a different way? I think my comment was, the images that I saw were about this thing. I don't think I could have taken it, had they been larger, and the details been so in my face. And there were all kinds of things that went along with not just the hanging itself, but there were other things that were

done to black women that I won't even describe on television. I mean, that's for a very small group discussion because it will bring about emotions. I think some people didn't know existed within them. And so for that reason, I think the Warhol and the Community Advisory Committee is putting together discussions, because we know that people are going, this is going to be extremely painful for a lot of folks. And they are going to have to go somewhere to deal with these emotions, and right within the Warhol Museum, there will be a room for reflection, a book for comments, there will be other ways that people will be able to share what it is that they're feeling. But in addition to that, after the exhibit leaves, we don't want the discussion to stop. So this is, like Tom was saying, this is just the beginning. The exhibit is just the beginning for a

real honest dialogue about race relations in this region. I've interviewed the author on KDK when the book first came out, and the exhibit was in New York at the time. It exhibited a whole range of reactions, as you said, Miss Piggett, from the listeners. People who were upset that we were talking about this, and later on, people had gone and bought the book and they called me back, and they talked about their reactions to looking at these photographs, and they were visceral to say the least. It's the kind of thing that sometimes, like if I'm watching TV and I see the scene where the baby is ripped from the mother, and it's like, I can't watch it anymore. I'm going to kick in the TV set or something, and I expect people going to have these same reactions, Tom. Well, one of the things that we decided, I spoke to my colleague, who was Director of New York Historical Society, and she said, one of the most indelible images she had was coming into work one day at 10 o 'clock, and just seeing a woman seated on the steps of the museum outside,

and it was fairly cold that day, crying, and she said she sat down and just put her armors around her. So what they told us in New York, but also our advisory group was, we need to have a decompression in place. So as Betty mentioned, there will be a room right next to the actual exhibition room where we will have facilitated dialogues and people there to help people talk about their experience. There will be formal dialogues every day at one o 'clock in the afternoon. And if Pastor Richardson would like to bring his congregation to see this show, and then have a prayer service after, that can happen in this place. Did I do that past? Yes, I am. Are we saying any groups, the groups from the indelible ACP, churches, youth groups, they want to come and have, let's say, they're monthly meeting there and see the exhibition as part of it. We really want to see the museum as a community place. Not just the place where you hang out or any kind of images, but to engage that kind of dialogue. But this wouldn't be just for the NAACP or the black church groups. The ARP, almost everybody should be there to look at this. It'd be a sin, I think, if only black folks came to look at it. Well, NCCJ is bringing a group of kids.

I haven't spoken with the museum to see what our maximum number will be, but we have anywhere from 175 to 200 high school students from a four -county area. And it's a very diverse group. And I think it's critical that that diversity see those images and have the dialogue. What's going to happen? I know this is going to open September 22nd, but there are some other events that are going to happen along the road. While in the 22nd, where the museum will be open free of charge, and in fact, every Tuesday, because we want the largest group of people to see this show. And obviously, the price of admission is something, but that would stop some people. So every Tuesday, from 10 to 5, the entire museum will be open free of charge. But on that opening day of the 22nd, we'll begin with a kind of commemoration prayer service on Allegheny Landing right near the museum. We'll then move up to the museum, and then every hour, we're going to show the film, Ida B. Wells, who was one of the first Crusaders women, journalist crusaders against lynching. James Allen, who's

the collector of this body of work, will speak. We will have a forum, and I call it a quiet man of great, I don't know, intellect and passion. When I interviewed him, he told me that he was gay, that he was a furniture collector, and that he just, he would buy a piece of furniture, and he'd open a drawer, a cubby hole, and there one of these cards would be, they used them as postcards. These people in the pictures that we see were actually celebrating them, and we linched the nigger today, Uncle Bob, and said, would send the picture off. As a matter of fact, we've got some photos, and we want to take a look at them right now, and again, we would warm you, that these are a little bit disturbing, but let's take a look at some of these right now. Do you recall what this is? Can you read what that says? Well, this was a lynching that took place in Oklahoma, and actually what's written into the photographic plate, because it was a glass negative, is the name of the photographer, so it's credit line. And it's very interesting, the people who took these were often the same photographers who would go to weddings, and

in one instance, I don't think it was this one, the photographer said, like hurry it up, get it finished, I have to go to a wedding and photograph for the next hour and the next town. It was a way of life. It was a way of life, exactly. And the thing that's so disturbing about it is, when we talked about the institutions, I mean, you would have to have the participation of the police and of the newspapers, of all kinds of groups, to sanction this kind of open display. And here at Toomean hung together, and what Mr. Allen told me was that quite often, it was not just a lynching, but some of these photographs, people have been burned, lynched, riddled with bullets, castrated, and the whole list goes on. And in many of them, unlike the first two that we showed, there are lots of people, including children standing around and grinning for the photographer. It was almost like a family event, like a picnic, like you would go to a picnic and have a game. And I know some of the images that I saw, it took me a while when I looked at it, because I couldn't figure out what I was looking at, and someone had been tired and feathered and

burned. And then... It almost didn't look like a human being. It didn't. That's why it took me a while to figure out what I was looking at. The other thing is, and I don't know how some of these men were able to do it, after being whipped, tired, all sorts of things happen to them. Some of them were able to say, God bless you to the crowd, I am innocent, because all it took was an accusation sometimes, that a black man had raped a white woman, and it was the nearest black man, six feet tall, it was picked and lynched. And they were able to say that, and go to their maker, I'd be like, I'll meet you in hell, buddy. I'm saying, you know, I don't know how some of these men were able to do that. I just don't know. You know that one of the things that I hope will happen as a part of this, is that people not just in the African -American community and just in the schools that she was talking about, but people in the community of Pittsburgh, the civic leaders, you know, the mayors, the Jim Roddies, the business executives, the people who

own the banks and so forth, will come and take a part in this process, and see what's going on, and perhaps enter into a dialogue that helps them to at least understand how a whole sector of this community feels about our history and about, even where we are in Pittsburgh. But I guess things, anybody who's been alive in America for the past 30 or 40 years like some of us on this program, at least that long, it's with the exception of Betty, who's not anywhere near that old, knows that things have changed. This kind of open lynching just does not happen anymore, and it's an institutional racism that must be fought right now. Is that right, Betty? Well, that's part of it. I think there are some who would look at Johnny Gammage and say that was a lynching. Although there wasn't a rope involved, there were bullets involved, and no bullets, but some other things. Same, similar kinds of things, but it's the kind of thing where someone died, and we don't know why. And no one has sailed responsible either. Exactly, so. We wish you great luck with the

exhibit. We hope all of our listeners and viewers will turn out and be there. Thank you much for being here. Without sanctuary, lynching in America opens in a day long event that is free to the public on Saturday, September 22nd. For more information, you can call the war hall at 412 -237 -8300. That's 412 -237 - you you