Woman; 007; The Childless Couple

Good evening. Tonight's topic is the childless couple. We're going to be limiting ourselves this evening to talking about the couple who is childless by choice rather than the couple who cannot have children for medical reasons. Our guest is Ellen Peck. She's a syndicated newspaper columnist a founder member of No that's the National Organization of non-parents and the author of The Baby Trap the bestseller which sets out to prove that childless marriages are happy. Also a lot of women must hate you all for having read your book because you sort of debunk the basic assumption that motherhood is uniquely fulfilling. How do you want the people who attack you on these grounds. Well actually I'm not the one who tried to tear apart men in the districts have been in psychological journals for a long time. The studies that is that show that child marriages are happier and we are saying childfree marriages not childless. There's a slight difference in connotation and we want to emphasize the positive aspects of childfree lifestyles. And one of the basic

functions of non The National Organization for non parents is to give to couples who have chosen to be childfree. Some guidance and some help in answering the questions that they will face from from a society that is geared to expect everyone to have children. What about the maternal instinct as far as you are aware. Is there such a thing. No. I could quote and go into studies on that but perhaps the simplest way to disprove the maternal instinct is just to oh to ask. Well if if there were truly an instinct to have children would anyone be free from it. I obviously am. And the percentage of childfree couples according to Census Bureau figures has been increasing annually since 1066. The latest studies that we have from Calif several California universities show that as many as 18 to 20 percent of young college adults

intend to have no children and you see if maternity were an instinct it couldn't be that is disregarded. I think there are reflexes like eye blinking and there are drives like sacks. But if there were an eighth drug and enter in a drive to have children then our attitudes toward childbearing wouldn't vary so widely from culture to culture and couldn't change as quickly as they are of course experimental psychologists have proved that there is an innate maternal instinct in animals. Animals yes but you know animals don't live in a society that has moved from the forest into the cities. Very little is natural about our way of life. You know everything about an animal is not true but the clothes we wear the transportation we use the energy we consume. None of this is not true. We did certainly have instincts some time ago. But another thing we might realize about maternal instinct is that didn't refer to a desire to have

children and if so why do some cultures not connect sexual union with reproduction. Or did it refer to the fact that a woman knew what to do in order to give birth to a child on her own and how to care for it afterwards. And today we have classes for these things that clearly a long way from an instinctive behavior. But if certain cultures don't originally associates the reproductive drive with motherhood I mean they must Pretty soon find out about it. Not necessarily because in primitive cultures remember that the act of conception takes place nine months before birth. A lot of other things happen in those nine months there's a full moon you know another tribe attacks. So childbirth could be connected with all sorts of things. And the this is it may you do nevertheless challenge the basic Judeo-Christian concept of family life what are you offering in its place. We are suggesting that we now have the phoneline family too narrow and I we have defined it as nuclear family a traditional marriage a man woman and biological children.

Let's face it in our culture this family pattern has not worked. Our divorce right is phenomenal. It's it's moving from one in three marriages to one in two. Many of those marriages that remain together are what conference call high stability low happiness marriages. We have 50000 women each year who abandon their children. One quarter million instances each year of severe child abuse and child neglect. We have a family system that is breaking down. The National Organization for non parents is very interested in the preservation of family life. But we feel we should ask what makes a family a family can be two people perhaps two people husband and wife who relate to each other in circumstances of total intimacy and total love and do not involve themselves very much with career or community. You so yes it's unique for the childless couple and saying it's more usual. But before

the point about the family I think the ideal that we are reaching for is a concept of a flexible family. In other words my family includes many thousands of teenagers who wrote me every month. I have a childfree friend whose family is three square blocks in an urban renewal area of Baltimore and that entire There is no one in that three block area who is not part of her family and her husband's. There is a larger family a community and society. And sometimes when couples have their own children they forget about the larger community. Certainly close relationships are not unique to childfree couples they're only more common and we might ask. You know I said before that studies showed childfree marriages to be happier. One of these studies was done by Dr. Harold Feldman at Cornell There have been others but the question is why.

Is it because children per se always are destructive to marriage because diapers. Began the divorce process. No it's simply that by insisting or urging that everyone in our society have children. We have made it inevitable that some people will have children who aren't really suited for parenthood. Can you imagine if we had a society that urged everyone to be a doctor. We had to have a lot of unhappy physicians who weren't suited for their work. Parenthood is a specialized occupation. I'm interested in these studies which you mentioned how can you do a study on happiness. I mean how can you determine happiness who is happy who is not how can you make in your statistics there are certain correlates of verbal communication non-verbal communication amount of time spent together amount of topics talked about over the course of the week number of spontaneous two of you excursion. There are several correlates that are quite consistent.

The frequency and duration of lovemaking things such as this. All right before we get into this Could you sort of for the benefit of those who've not read your book The Baby Trap. Give an outline as to its message. Yes I think I could do that. The baby trap. Meant to say here are the reasons why Bill Peck and Ellen Pack have chosen not to have children. Perhaps they will be of interest to some of you who haven't decided whether or not to have children. Perhaps they'll help those of you who have become parents to understand why not everyone wants to. And there is a message also implicit in the title Baby Trap babies are romanticized in our society and so is motherhood. You think of the covers on the women's magazines but it is a long term process and it is a trap in the sense that. Something is a trap when you don't know it's a trap another would you walk into it expecting

something quite promising and you get a confinement a restriction instead pound to it will take 20 years of you lot. There's no two ways around it. If you love babies and think of yourself as the mother of an infant or young child just ask yourself if you would also be happy to think of yourself as the mother of a 6 year old or a 12 year old or a teenager. I'm curious. When did this all start in your life. Do you say so to speak to motherhood was sown in your childhood by your parents attitudes towards you. I don't think so. When I was interviewing for the baby Trad I interviewed childfree couples and I could find no consistency and background some had come from large families some were only children some had a traditional upbringing some had very artistic parents. I grew up in a very small town and my upbringing was Catholic and I certainly when I married expecting to have children it was not anything we

decided before marriage. I believe this is different today. You see I got married more than eight years ago. And it was an assumption then. Now it is something to be considered and discussed along with many other aspects of marriage. What happened both now and that was that we did not want to have children right away. We wanted to do things by ourselves first to have some time for the two of us and travel and explore our interests and be free individuals. Before we we became nurturers of of children. But in the years when we were delaying the decision we watch Friends of ours have children. We watch their marriages change. We realize that our relationship was quite complete as it was that we were very happy as we were that a child could add nothing to our marriage. It's fortunate perhaps that you both feel equally the husband and use that this is right for you.

But how do you explain this to people close to you such as your mother your in-laws and so on who must have had the sort of usual leanings towards grandchildren. We did not have a problem with parents and in-laws and my parents may not have always approved of what I did but they always understood or accepted and loved. I think that this is a serious problem. Often particularly with a couple where one partner is an only child and therefore the only hope of grandchildren this has to be explained. And in fact the first chapter of the baby trap that was written was a chapter on what do you say when I would be talking to other couples who decided not to have children. You know they would ask in conversation oh do you have children. I would say no. And we're not going to. And they would say oh we're not either. What do you say. And we would exchange ideas. But it has to be made clear to parents that we made no promises we sign no contracts at age 5 we will someday give you grandchildren

and in-laws or prospective grand grandparents. What do their own children a favor by not exerting pressure is not offering savings account accounts not asking Is there any new yet. Because the choice should be made by the couple themselves. You must get it said to you quite a lot Will how do you know you're not in a position to evaluate the pros and cons you have no children you're taking the negative side on hearsay or from research that you have never experienced the joy the creativity the reward the fulfillment and so on of having children how do you respond. Well I would say to that that I've enjoyed the joy and the fulfillment and creativity and the sense of fulfillment that comes from not having children. The tragedy is that often people who do have children find that they then miss out on these things. And besides it being a wrong choice for them there is an innocent life involves that of a child

that they might have been happier with and who could have been asked to be born into better circumstances. The answer to that is that fulfillment is not the same for all people. Those who say to me I'm so happy as a mother to think that you're depriving yourself of this happiness is sad. I would say well it's wonderful that you're happy as a mother but what's happiness for you may not be happiness for me. And I would you know raise this question to the audience and I'm sure there are some happy mothers watching but it may be a disservice considering the statistics about unhappy Parenthood. To say to friends particularly young couples Parenthood is wonderful and fulfilling. Say instead Parenthood has been wonderful and fulfilling for me but not as a total generalization because people are dead. When you get accused of being hedonistic and selfish and using this is a cop out an avoidance of responsibility and responsibility comes in many different forms. I consider our involvement with citizens groups consumer groups

environmental groups anti-nature to be part of our commitment to the larger family of the community. It's just as much of responsibility as taking care of a 2 year old the denture feel that couples with children can also have this commitment to the community. Well they can and if they can as their lives up to a point they can still have the time to involve themselves in all these activities. They can but often they do not. The woman who has 100 carpools a year or two a week may have less time to be concerned about what's going on in other areas of the country or indeed even another part of town. I would would hazard no guesses here but. It is possible that childfree couples have more time and personal resources to give to the larger problems of society which in the end will build a better society for those who have had children. It's not that all childfree couples vacation constantly in

Europe drinking champagne. This is an unfortunate stereotype I think of our vacations do tend to be different. We don't take campers necessarily to the to the nearest leg. We do tend to travel more extensively but this is not selfishness or if anyone would call it selfishness. It is certainly a selfishness that harms no one. We are leaving more room and more resources for other people's children and I would contrast this to the selfishness of a woman who would say I don't care about the environment. Future generations will face about overpopulation. I'm going to have my own babies and as many as I want. You see this is a sort of selfishness that could be pried out of you if I was a conscience about contributing to population explosion or draining the earth's resources. They still have the option to adopt what do you feel about adoption. I'm very much in favor of adoption that is an

absolute. It's a wonderful joyous way to build a family. And I think it is almost Samantha. A true test of whether or not you truly love children and would be a good parent. Because if you love children you can love a child that doesn't look like you. Would you ever consider Don't you know we would not. And I'll tell you why. We certainly have a close involvement with young people of many with many young people. If we were to adopt and give so much of our care and time and attention to just one child we would lose our involvement with a wide range of young people. Our lifestyle would not adapt itself to constant care of a child. And we must. Sort of break away from the myth that children would have biological children or adopted children are necessary to fulfill a marriage because they aren't. All we are concerned about population. We also value our privacy and our

leisure. And I think that it's important to realize that there are these two reasons in us. You know we happen to have both reasons for not wanting children. But some couples feel a sense of sacrifice. They would like to have children but they feel that the next generation will have a better world if this generation takes it easy with reproduction. This should be understood and admired and so should the couple who has the strength to say the courage and the self-knowledge to say children are not for us. What what NON is concerned about is the fact that non-parents must defend themselves are our headquarters Fernand is in Palo Alto California and California is a pioneer state in many ways we think of it as having very advanced ideas. But even there where our organization started there is a great deal of discrimination against non parents. I think it's discrimination for

example when you can always ask a child for a couple. Why don't you have children. But has anyone ever asked parents why did you have children. Well how do you deal with this discrimination this pressure from society. That is why we formed the organization that you personally how do you react. Well I'm perfectly willing to answer the question why don't you have children. What I think because I have my answers very well thought out and my husband and I discussed it for a long time. And in fact one reason why two years after I wrote the baby trap one reason why I'm still exploring is that hopefully this will make enough people understand so that other couples won't have to explain. Do you go through this whole thing I mean explain explain to me. Do you brush them. Do you know and we can never go into a new situation and not without feeling well some may come up. Sometimes we had rather jovial and sometimes it's quite a serious discussion. But the thing is.

It is not fair to badger a child free couple or to question them to the point where they become defensive because after all we don't do this to parents and we should allow free choice. Why not react to non-parents the way we are we react to parents. After all if someone were to be here on your show some out to under say I'm going to have a baby you would say that's wonderful. Well why can't we were reacting to a couple who says we're not going to have babies by saying that's wonderful. Why can't we do that you have Mother's Day and Father's Day since you know it's simply a gesture it's meant to suggest how inequitable our society has been. There's always been a mother's died there has not been a lot of mothers that you know will suggest that there be one. You make some interesting assertions in your book amongst them. You say there's a correlation between fatherhood and infidelity. Children are disruptive to a marriage

they precipitate divorce and they can make a man feel trapped. Just wondering what you base all this. Ohm Well interviews with all of the concerts mentioned in that chapter about husbands and children. There is no question. Really that men are more apt to be unfaithful to their wise after they have children. Arnold Silverman in his similar book on the subject points this out that men are more apt to desert their wives not to be unfaithful. There was a clinical study done in St. Louis that showed that about one third of the men in this particular sample had first been unfaithful to their wives just after she'd given birth to her child. I will tell you without a peak period of divorce is the first year after the birth of the first child there are reasons for this. Listing children has been instrumental in children. Let's look at.

Those sexual problems and economic problems and depending on which tissue is one will be number one and one will be number two. Children are costly economically and emotionally. But the economic cost of children can make a man feel trapped. Before he was a free person one counselor put it this way. Before he was a dashing gray horse race horse with a pretty filly by his side. Now he is a work horse pulling the family carriage and you know in harness. A man once he has children feels reminders of unending financial responsibility descending like rain it's not just the pediatrician's bills it's not just the babysitters. It's not just later the orthodontist the piano lessons summer cut the summer camp and the college savings plans. It's more than all of these it's the knowledge that he is responsible for anything anything that this child will need. Any problems that will arise. Physical or mental or emotional and he must

therefore. Perhaps toe the line in his job not speak up in his work as he used to because now he can't risk losing his job if he has a fleeting thought that he would like to quit his job for a year. He can't afford to if he would like to change careers he can't afford the salary shift. This. Has been known to lead to problems ulcers excessive drinking frustration because it's not just a matter of an extra hundred sixty seven fifty every two weekend bills. It's a matter of not being your own person free to live your own dreams. You are a wage earner because you have a child that you are responsible for raising this. This is oppressive and it can take away from a man's sense of selfhood. And as far as sexual problems. As I explained in the book a man who sees his wife suddenly in a maternal role can see this

maternal role contracting very sharply to her former old former sensual role of free romantic young girl. He can react as he did to his own mother and seek completion outside the home in terms of a girlfriend. So while the causes of divorce are yes sexual problems economic problems the children often precipitate this but not necessarily no. But don't you think that if a marriage is healthy and secure children are not such monsters and ogres that they can really stretch. So if a man doesn't think so he is the author of a book similar to the baby trap It's called The Case against having children. In fact he said to me once that he felt a marriage was extremely close. What have the most to lose because you add a child to that close relationship and you're not just adding one relationship you're adding three relationships before you had the couple. Now you have a father child mother child coupled child add a second child and you add gnawing

relationships and the contrast between the former closeness that was enjoyed and the way it must now be be divided the parent personal resources divided can be greater. I personally am not sure that I would agree that the best marriages have the most to lose. In fact I think the marriages in trouble have most to lose. I would be far more willing to see a good marriage take on the responsibility of a child than to see a marriage in trouble. Think well if we had a child that would solve our problems because that is kind of untrue and categorically dangerous thing. Yes you've got a chapter in your book on pregnancy the psychological motivations why women become pregnant would you like to elaborate on that. Why do you think that women become pregnant. Well there are numerous numerous reasons but I think that many people watching this program will feel that what we are equipped with a reproductive system will you know part of being a woman is using it I mean I'm not saying that this is my reason it's a right but this is one reason

that women get pregnant you know at a particular time. We are technically equipped to have children you know in our mid teens but yet this is not the culturally accepted age for childbearing. Women get pregnant often because there comes a time when it's a culture the accepted thing to do. Now there are other reasons I go into of course but I would say that we tend to live our lives in patterns that societies that we will go to school we will we will work perhaps we will almost certainly if we marry there will come a time. It's almost like a you know a time clock going off. Isn't it time you started thinking about a family living up to social expectations rather than asking what's right for you as a person. The confusions of what you're talking about you know children do advocate. No no no that's not the logical conclusion at all. But we're advocating what the National Organization for non-parents is advocating is that society no longer pressure couples to have children. And the pressure does not begin

with the anxious in-laws questions the pressure begins I think with a child because the mother is very apt to react selectively to her child's habits of play. If the if a little girl for example picks up a truck to play with she may be disinterested. But if the little girl picks up a doll she will play with the little girl and say well now how are we going to take care of baby. We must do everything very carefully some day you will be a mother to the little girl for motherhood. Did you have chorus. But I do think there's a case to be made for. A wider variety of playthings for both boys and girls and there's a case to be a little girl. Someday you'll be a mommy instead of someday you'll be a mommy. Another option open to a couple contemplating having children would be. Think it over. Convince her that you want to child.

You're just perfectly convinced from now but there's no such thing as a trial child. Thank you very much. My guest tonight is next week.