Ch 17 Reports

Hundred for. A bottle bill is not an economic negative. I believe a lot of the industry's figures and data and statistics are simply self-serving. When business and labor get together and say this is a dangerous and bad proposal you've got to look because you've got to believe that there's got to be more than just somebody trying to make money. By consumers are automatically going to probably pay at least the minimum 75 cents more.

And I final channel 17 reports of the season will take a close look at the controversial bottle bill which Governor Kerry recently signed into law. Will resolve the litter and solid waste problems create more jobs or result in an increase in unemployment and a possible closing of some plants and businesses. We do know that it will be more costly for the consumer and a nightmare for shopkeepers once the returnable bottles and cans come in. We have learned that lawmakers working with the beverage industry and its unions are about to

throw in the towel. The so-called bottle bill which goes into effect next July calls for a minimum five cent deposit on most beverage cans and bottles sold in New York State. Legislation also bans detachable flip top openers and plastic retainers used to hold cans and bottles together aimed at the state's litter problem. It took 10 years for the politically sensitive issue to become law. I have supported him for several reasons. It has worked in eight other states. This isn't the first time the bottle bill has been proposed in the country. It's worked and you know the states it's working Michigan it's worked in Connecticut it's worked you know Massachusetts Oregon of course. TLC which was the other. Total other control bill has been tried in several states I believe four and five. And in almost every case there are tempering it amending it they're pulling it down. So I believe the bottle bill is you know good for New York stand and I'm disappointed

from the standpoint that we're in the midst of a recession with an unemployment rate that is really around 14 to 16 percent and in my district and the bottle bill represents a threat that that unemployment rate could go up again. So I pointed out to the people on Long Island in the debate. It's very much easier for them the main support was from Long Island it's very easy for them to to a favorite because they don't have the potential loss of jobs that we have and they have about a 5 percent unemployment rate. So they've got a possibility of absorption. We don't have that here and that's the reason I'm disappointed because there's no way that I'm going to vote to take a chance of people going to lose their jobs. We can forsee many increase in operational costs. So only some. Small minor jobs in the plant itself is separating the rubbish if I may call it that the bottles and cans that have you brought back to you for. Failing recycling

processing. Trucking costs of course are going to feast. Hollow back and forth no longer had to. Have to be purchased to handle this. Process in the last two were forced to handle all the containers and packaging. That's right on. Here. It's going to mean as many as maybe one and as much as 25000 square foot of warehouse which we all know what construction costs and then we'll have to process these containers in some fashion whether it be the glass by crushing it or the aluminum by flattening it and then sending it back to wherever. And that equipment costs are going to be affected. Containers now after a weekend. Just to facilitate picking up containers to make it easier for the retailer. You do have a

chart of what percentage. We run about 40 percent of the products we sell here are going to it will be an expensive way of reducing litter. We felt that the total litter control bill which is the industry alternative to the bottle bill would have been much more effective but of course it didn't go that way. We feel that the future is very bleak around here now with the bill to add to it it's like with another meal. Sure kids will be returnable and be returnable but eventually it's going to be a one big pain in the butt to keep bringing kids back for recycling. And that's a lot of the different industries in this area. We're going to lose many of our people and even affected will be affected with some strange bedfellows on this issue of. Labor and management getting together. You had a very good lobbying in Albany.

What happened. Are working very hard at it. I think that some pressure was Kerry's lap. He's a lame duck. Let's keep it out of there. But apparently Kerry didn't care anymore. He paid his debt to labor for labor support over the years and I think he's a little kooky at times anyway. And interesting but not at the expense of jobs. Didn't give a damn. Governor Kerry says it's going to create more jobs. You feel that we're going to lose many jobs here in the front here. I think we're going to lose more and it's going to create create a fuel but in the long run we're going to lose a lot of jobs.

I don't think that's true. Governor Kerry who has been in office for the entire legislative history of the bottle bill and has been known to be an old poet of. His staff issued a report early this year. In which he said a New York state would create jobs. He said a bottle bill in New York State will not be detrimental to our economy. Our sources in other states where the final bill has been in effect says that the bottle bill is not an economic negative. And I believe a lot of the industry's figures and data and statistics are simply self-serving. I know that the two new beer companies that have moved into Syracuse the Budweiser Miller gigantic operations are making the beer cans in the bottles I guess for those states in New England that have a bottle bill. And anyone who thinks they're not going to be making dollars from New York. Now the wonder about the bill. Is misjudging the business acumen of those two companies.

How great an economic impact do you feel that the battle will have on us here in western New York. Admittedly it's very difficult to say just as it's difficult to say what effect it will have on litter my own personal feeling is knowing having been a police officer and having dealt with litter problems over the years fact I was one of the few police officers used to make arrests and bring people in for for throwing mattresses and littering and so forth that used to be a real bugaboo of mine. The solid waste problem in this state is so serious that bottle bill is not going to help it. We've got to do something and we're in the process of doing things now. And as to the bottle bill it's much too late to really be of any great assistance there. There's no doubt that it will reduce some letters. 50. Percent. I guess.

It's very minimal. And secondly it doesn't you know they had paper and plastic and glass and. After the bill was passed. Source cried out Well they're not going to bring a unit in and haven't paid a penny a pound when they can take that same container and get a nickel for it. And that's the dilemma. Eight other states have this bill. You have any idea how it's working for them. Why research on it is that it is. Decreased their later ranging anywhere from 6 to a possible 12 percent in

the where they have the bottle bill process. I think this is a very very small amount compared to the cost and the hardship involved to the entire state. Both in sales tax dollars and any number of things. The only state to compare with New York Michigan because it's the only state that really is a producer state a thing that everybody should realize is why can't Maine do it why can't Oregon why can't other states they don't have any bottles they don't I mean I mean who has to lose. New York has to lose in Pennsylvania and states industrial states that produce those bottles were the ones that lose their gainers because if they can do anything with litter there maybe it'll cost them some more there. But at least it won't cost them a job because they don't have enough jobs to worry about there in the bottling industry and I think that's the key difference. What is most literate consist of the bottles and cans or do we have maybe more of paper and plastic product as more bottles cans and stuff like that. I noticed just a short distance away we have two

large containers that are empty and there's garbage strewn all about you know bottles and paper and cardboard plastic. Is this common. Oh definitely. In Fact is really bad. You look in the wooded areas you find a lot more now you think that you know the containers right next to these people that they would just drop them into the into the container. That's a sensible thing you know but they're not that sensible. And you actually feel it this the passage of this bottle bill will help reduce the slinger definitely and positive. How will you handle the bottle would be turned over. Do you have enough space for all of these bottles and cans as well. We want to know all of it. Just a few items. Special ones. Other words you'll probably cut down on your beer and pop. Yes we will. There's no rule we got only a small space I show you in a little while. You got some for the bottles.

And yes we need more than these two so we will have so many. Oh well this bottle bill impose any kind of a health problem you think it's for some of these small stores for the kids and you've got to store them in my bring in bugs so you always whatever I think of the house. So you're not too happy that this bottle bill was passed. To fully know that they had before. You're just going to hurt you in any way. I don't think so. One heard March where you create more work are you disappointed in the bill at all because you know you're going to have all kinds of cans and bottles being returned now where you have to be careful not to accept these bottles and filthy who answered him or something like that. Well we really don't have much basis as this is a small store and that will cause a problem. We probably will eliminate cans may just continue carrying battles. We may just carry the more popular friends.

And just continue you know the less popular brands you feel the same as Mr Cool tech that you were in favor of the bottle bill because it's going to help you know the environment. Yes. Anything to help the environment. Even though it's a little more work a little more accounting a little more space taken That's right. Here's what I think we're going to run into space problems and we're going to have probably put on more people to handle the MTs coming back that's the biggest concern is that we're going to have to handle all these cans and stuff when they get back here. I mean I think it's going to hurt the business. The can business I think everything will be sold in returnable packages. There's no point paying a deposit for something when you don't have that convenience of throwing it away or if you're better off than the monopod grocers even the supermarket because you do have room. Yeah we got we're a lot better off than they would be. I can't imagine how small stores are going to get by

with this type of law. I imagine that you have to do some extra accounting here. Will that be a problem. I don't even like to think about it and definitely be a problem. I suppose for you in terms of the environment it's a it's a good law takes some getting used to but will handle it. You handled some major labels and some private labels what happens to the private label. We don't know yet originally we felt that the private labels would go. We're not really set up to take back cans or bottles into our warehouse. In talking to a private label supplier last week he said that they were going to try to come up with something where it would be feasible for us to keep the private labels. We have labels like Faygo in Shasta which are a lower price than the national brands and they also say they are working on something to make the label still viable in our market.

What it is is it's just too early to tell you we had a little indication we talked to a small grocer and they don't have the room for all of the channels and they say that they're going to cut back their beer and pop to just a few of the major labels. I'm sure that will happen some of the smaller brands will be eliminated. We're anxious for the ecologists are anxious to put people out of business and on the right. It could help get them out. Gov. Kerry vetoed an alternate bill sought by the container industry. One called the total litter control act. It was developed last year by the beverage industry as an alternative to the bottle bill supported by many legislators it would have required industry to pay a tax of about 20 million dollars a year to support voluntary recycling and litter cleanup programs sought by local governments. The TLC was was a naked attempt to block the bottle bill. Then managed it later on to dress it up and to put in this recycling component to appeal to the environmentalist but most people saw through that. Smoke screen. Yeah absolute smoke screen

and. They had a lot of language in there friends as I said of a bottle bill ever passed. And the total letter control bill was the law of the land. The TLC would self-destruct. They have that little faith in their answer. So most people saw through it. But it seems that it would be beneficial to be giving jobs to unemployed use the clean up programs. He was alone in that sense yes but. Isn't that the role of government to set an example to the citizens of the state. Why should we pay people to pick up after other people's bad habits. Why not make the product that we sell in the state which creates about half of the bottles litter. Returnable. Why go to an extra step to clean up the landscape with a smoke screen but it was obviously introduced in an attempt to

to provide some sort of alternative to the bottle bill is no question. Many of us had been saying to the industry people the labor management people look there is. Most people really don't understand this whole thing all they know is they're opposed to litter as we all are and therefore we said to them come up with some concept some real concept that will provide us with some real help in this area and yet not endanger jobs in the in the marketplace. So that's where the really the total litter control concept came from. Total utter control although it wasn't perfect Certainly. I. Was. To include other materials on a broader scale that would have reduced maybe litter by as much as 60 percent and solid waste by as much as 40 percent which is a lot different than 3 percent. And 15 percent. We always felt that pop bottles in the beer bottles were a

relatively small part of the total litter problem problem. I think litter control will improve but I I think will be a very expensive way of improving even the governor's study which came out on the side of the bottle bill estimated 200 million dollars were going to be spent. The industry total litter control bill was going to cost 20 22 million dollars a year. Now the consumers want to come in and get a six pack of Pepsi is that going to cost me more. Unfortunately the consumer is going to have to pick up the bill again of course it's going to cost a lot over to above the. Forced to posit. Other consumers are going to very likely pay anywhere from 30 60 or 70 cents a carton more for that same packet because it's going to cost us much more for processing than it has in the past. I think it's worth it I think that we have to make a commitment to cleaning up our countryside. And this is good conservation it's a good environment.

It's going to take some adjustment. And they're going to be some vexatious and difficult times in the small delicatessen owners are going to have space problems. But this isn't a crisis. It's a difficult it's crisis. Don't forget that when. Five or six years ago when unit pricing came out nationally and through the state legislature the supermarket people fought that tooth and nail and said he was going to raise the. Cost of doing business and so on. Well you know price has been a success in every county recycling station was planned by executives of the beverage and bottling industries. Two hundred thousand dollars in upfront money recycled not only cans and bottles but other letters such as paper metal and rubber. But with the passage of the bottle bill the environmental project appears to be on hold while a battle bill really has teeth. Time frame dramatically we were just about ready to announce when the governor signed the bill that we had a reach agreement with through a mall in terms of

a permanent site for a recycling station we had just about finalized our Anderson Land Corporation for a building that they were going to donate to your recycling. And it was a matter of just getting the site. Repaired. The building modified and then we would be off and running hopefully by as early as September. What does happen is our group has just met last week and unanimously voted to stay together and pursue the project. We would like to see a reduction recycling center right here in the Central Park Plaza created operational next July. To develop that we want the industry the same industry that announced IRI recycling center to invest there two hundred thousand dollars if they made a commitment. We think we have found the perfect site for that project and would like to work with Mr. Gore Gore distributors and the people associated with that project. What needs to be done is the industry to make do on their

$200000 commitment. Mr Donovan who is the chairman of the airy recycling center has made that commitment. They've been selling it to this community for six to seven months now. We hope that proposal is not just a smokescreen to kill the bottle bill that is a real attempt at recycling. We think it can be done here. You can add to a redemption center. It could work well together. There are enough community forces that would like to work with the industry and we extend to them our willingness to cooperate and develop such a venture. This is indicative of where the burden of responsibility lies now. I put in other groups have been. Yeah the kids who container legislation over the years. And now that the bill is passed I think that throughout the state the problems that we've seen for years as an industry are now being discussed and I think groups like Nypro realize that they want to see this thing work. And now they're offering their help and assistance I would really have to

sit down and maybe find out exactly what participation diapered has in mind they want us to fund it and to do all the work and then to stand back and clap. I don't know if that's such a good arrangement passage of the bottle bill could have a shattering impact on the only glass manufacturing plant in Brockport as well as several surrounding communities and Monroe Genesee and Orleans counties. The plant employs 550 persons. And last year had a payroll of nine and a half million dollars. Rob Smith has just taken over as plant manager and is maintaining a wait and see attitude as to the effect the bottle bill will have on his company. At this point in time. We are not certain what impact. It's going to have on our plan. Except we are certain that it will be a negative impact. We don't know if the forest extends a lot depends upon the reaction that our customers the bloggers and the Brewers. Have to restrict people legislation. Your customers will have

to go along with the Returnable apparently and not necessarily. Some customers they all like to develop a different type of a glass container. We're concerned about portion of that legislation which restricts the use of. Carriers plastic carriers. Your predecessor a little over a year ago voiced concern saying that you could first see and possible shutdown of the plant salivation with another one nearby and maybe Pennsylvania. I'm not prepared to say that this plant will be shut down in fact. I think that it would. But you have to consider that over one third of our entire production. Is. Associated with a nonrefundable container. And in the event the legislation goes forward the impact the negative impact on this planet. For her.

There was truly an interest and. Growth legislation of this type would not have been an act in the first place. You know I just don't see that we're sending this bill I think it was very topical over the last 10 years. And the governor made his decision and I think that will that. Hopefully we will be able to address some of the problems that are going to be critical to some of this. We're businessmen we're you know. We're forced into a situation that we don't like but we're going to we're going to have to live with it as best we can. We would like to see amendments made particularly along the lines of encouraging recycling. The governor said when he was too bad that the two bills could not somehow have been dovetailed in together. So we expect to be spending some time to see if we can get something going to would encourage recycling and take the burden off the food stores water taking all of the bottled back as.

Well the bill as I see it as it stands today is almost on a livable. It's going to be definite They have to find. The rest or some things of it literally. Unless they want to put us up completely out of business they're going to have to find we will call upon our friends in the state legislature to help us and come up with some ways of well cut this apart a little bit. You know what make it a little more palatable that we can absorb it. It's a separate environmentalist an exception except it's something we can live with. Well I'm sure that the industry is going to try to kill it. They've done it that way in every state that it's been passed. Six states before I don't think there's going to be a great deal of success but they may try to get it through the legislature and get a repeal on it. I think in an election year that will not happen certainly this year if it's introduced next year. I cannot see it happening before the bill takes effect. They may try to go to court to slow it down. But I think the massive support of consumers will tell the

politicians. What's the bill again. Consumers want it they want to see it work. It's worked in other states redemption centers that work in other states. We want one here in Erie County and in the city of Buffalo. The beverage industry as well as many of your your fellow lawmakers are going to try to fight this new battle Bill. Can they be successful in the way to change those laws. SLATER Well I think they can in the sense that if if the law needs fine tuning there should be an amendment to it. If there's some of that what is in there without. Dismantling the main purpose of the law then of course that's where the legislature is for. But I suspect with with New York state and state being the night state and the biggest state so far to go into returnable legislation that the question is now not turning back the clock on New York but toward a national model. I think that that is what the distributors of the food market people better construct not wash in Washington not the state

capitals.