Woman; 001; Frigidity

An in-depth exploration of the world of women today with Man City. Good evening. Tonight is the fast of a series of 30 weekly programs designed by full and about women. It's a series that will consider woman as wife woman as mother and woman as a force in society and in the weeks to come we will be discussing such problems as men a poor bus Contro marital problems raising children pursuing careers. In fact the entire spectrum of what it means to be a woman in today's society. Each week will have various guests each of whom has been chosen because he or she is an expert in the field under consideration. The first 10 weeks we will be discussing woman as wife. Tonight our subject is frigidity. And with me Lori Robin who is an associate professor in the Department of Psychiatry in the medical college at the State University of New York at Buffalo where she coordinates a class in human sexuality. Dr. Stanford co-pay is also here he is an obstetrician

gynecologist. He's also on the faculty of the University of Buffalo in the medical school. We also have Dr. Robert Sutton but a practicing psychoanalyst in Syracuse New York and he is president of the Weston New York psychoanalytical society. Minutes ago we were discussing the word for duty and you said Dr. Robin in fact you said that you object to the term for duty. Would you care to elaborate a little bit on this. Well we see the term as really not meaningful. I think as I said a rose is a rose is a rose and there it is but frigidity has a wide scale of semantic connotation it's a denigratory depressing term. It's accusatory and it really doesn't define anything. And it particularly offends me because a woman may have the term frigidity applied to her because she doesn't have an organic response that's called for and yet she may have lived happily in marital

relations with her husband for many years have great had great pleasure in her relationship with him they most both might be satisfied. And now she can have a label pinned on it that's totally inaccurate. Would you prefer as an alternative. I don't think you need a label or a term for that I think you have to focus on sexual functioning rather than labeling people as those who cannot function. Dr. Seidenberg as a therapist would you put a label on this. What would be your definition of the word for duty. But I'm in complete agreement with what much of what Gloria says on the subject and I go a little further and indicate that it really is one of the terms that has come out of sexism in our society that it's another putdown it's something like the word the opposite of virginity something like that for media which has no equivalent C and for men and it's the sort of doesn't satirize

as an equivalent. Yes but who knows about how to play this psychological physiological ever turns as well. Right I would like to say before we start that I agree with the other two panelists here that fertility is something that is a great problem because it has been called a problem. And in reality I don't believe I've ever met a woman in my practice who is actually frigid although I've met many who thought they were frigid. So consequently it's a it's a state of mind that has been labeled by many people that doesn't actually exist. Many women are sexual response of in many ways and yet are thought to be frigid because they don't respond in the traditional way that is expected from them by certain magazines articles books. So as far as I'm concerned I feel we shouldn't use the term frigidity when discussing female sexual response. Well what is commonly meant by the temperature to take

well it is most often applied to women who are unable to have orgasm during sexual intercourse. And it is also apply to women who do not desire sexual intercourse. So there's a wide range of variance in the use of this one word. But to get back to my original question what percentage of this is physiological and psychological. Well it is extremely rare that there is a physiological or physical reason for frigidity although people can suffer from painful intercourse and therefore not desire sexual relations and be falsely classified as being frigid although in reality they may just have a minor kind of collage ical problem such as an overly tight vaginas or such as inflammation in the vagina which can cause pain with intercourse. And none of these women in that situation are actually frigid. And I take it you would agree with this here.

How much importance do you attach to the orgasm itself. What could a woman expect in terms of sexual experience from from an orgasm. This search for the orgasm is what bothers many women today. I would estimate that about 50 percent of the patients that I see are troubled by the difficulties that they have in attaining orgasm during sexual intercourse. Women have been inhibited throughout their developing years by well-meaning mothers by a well-meaning community and society to protect them from the so-called evils of sex. And then one day they are thrown into bed with a man and they're expected to perform after having been conditioned to the evils of sex and consequently many women without any surprise have difficulty functioning on a total released level which finally would end up in orgasm. So where does the trouble start. Why don't we hear about Iran and know that I would just drew breath because I was thinking that for

the woman probably the psyche is the critical factor. And it's for the woman the facilitation or they inhibition that goes on up there in the mind that says no stop or Yes yes go ahead. And this is the critical the all important critical factor I think in terms of the female. What are the variables here I mean what wrecked What did some of the variables in relationship to orgasm. Does age his educational level does the length of time a person who's been married have anything to do with the orgasm. But in terms of socio economics trade in turn of the female age. Well in terms of the aging woman we're not I'm not exactly Well I mean there have been theoretical considerations that a woman with increasing after childbirth parity in the Paris woman is capable of greater sexual responsivity Now this is disputable but it is still one of the expressions. Factual information

and this is on a physiological basis and I think that the company really would have to speak to this point and I'll bet I disagree to some extent I feel that women who have a sexual problem or feel they have a sexual problem have this persist after childbirth as well as whether it is present before childbirth and childbirth play some role in the actual physical contact between man and woman but it doesn't play much of a role in the psychological not in the psych play between people and as to whether or not a woman gets fully aroused and is capable of achieving orgasm I don't think that changes very much with childbirth she may have on occasion more difficulty achieving orgasm during intercourse for some minor physical factors. But she doesn't essentially become non orgasmic because of childbirth and ranching is one thing in a postpartum spectacle damages that neither is there any difference in terms of fulfillment regarding the two types of orgasm. Orgasm This is the time. Yes this is often discussed. I don't believe that there is

a difference in terms of the sexual satisfaction that a person receives from orgasm as to whether or not it's obtained during intercourse or with masturbation or with manipulation or genital contact. The orgasm provides some physical and emotional release to the woman and especially a sense of accomplishment since it becomes this important. Goal to achieve by our goal oriented society. Every woman at this point if they're reading the Sensuous Woman or reading Reuben's book on everything you ever wanted to know about sex every woman attempts now to achieve an orgasm and is bitterly frustrated and disappointed when she does not achieve an orgasm and tends to put herself down in the situation what do you think these books are to blame. Haps the bulk of women in did you think they have over a man over glamorized sex perhaps.

Well I think anything that brings sex into the household as a more common accepted idea is helpful rather than hurting. And I think that once the initial shock is overcome and the houses of some people who feel that sex is maybe a dirty or a burden or a hidden thing. I think once sex takes its normal happy friendly perspective feelings into the house as to what it really should be. To maintain a good sexual relationship. From childhood on. I think everybody will benefit and be much happier. The child has to grow up in an attitude of feeling that sex is good healthy. That office release whether it be masturbation or touch or finally ending up in intercourse successful and releasing certain feelings and making someone feel that they are good and happy with the person that they are when can we get intercourse is not contributory factors that you might be responsible for upsetting the balance of the sexual balance. Doctor do you feel that training parental attitudes and so on

play a large part. Well I think for one thing perhaps a discussion we're having today contributes to the problem that we're even discussed. And I don't say that in any way of trying to downgrade what we're doing or the motives of the program but as I've written the times that there really aren't any sexual problems. And by focusing so much as we have on the sexual problems in the sexual organs I think we forget the real issue which is the problem between the sexes. And this is the ongoing issue that manifests itself in many ways and it manifests itself in bed it manifests itself physically and physiologically in many other ways. And I think the facts of life that children have not been taught is the way little girls are brought up the little boys are brought up not necessarily.

This pertains to intercourse or the sensual aspects but their fate in life the roles they have to play and the dignity that they have been growing up see the opportunities they have. And this of course as we were now beginning to find out is something that's always been hidden the vast difference in the opportunities say for a girl in growing up and for a boy growing up. And this ultimately goes into the relationship between the two and will manifest itself in sexual ways and as it must. Why is there such a discrepancy between the time a woman reaches have sexual attainment and the time a boy reaches his pit Catholics. Well you see sex traditionally and historically has been no friend of girls and women it's been their enemy because.

The social consequences of the girl's sexual activity can be disastrous for a boy. It can only add to his heroic stature so even there you see in a contemporary way and it's his own history. Sex has different consequences but historically if you look at the Inquisition for example for a hundred years women were burnt at the stakes men burnt their wives and sisters and daughters at the stake principally for sexual reasons because it was felt and you can see this and there's a little handbook of how to persecute prosecute which is the principal reason these with these people are called witches and burned at the stake was that they took the potency away from some man in the village and these witches had to be these people here I call them which is automatically part of sexism. Do you think this battle is going on still today. Of course the Inquisition doesn't suddenly die. Do you think the women's changing attitudes towards sex the fact that they expect a lot more than they did some 25

years ago has placed an extra. No not at all it didn't equalize a little bit because I said before I think this is this so-called sexual revolution sexual awareness although I certainly think it's in the right direction I think it is misplaced I think the far more emphasis should be placed on seeing the little girls for example are taught that they can be physicians and not necessarily just nurses or over the traditional an occupation that they're given this is a vital part part of these things are straightened out. I think the things in the bedroom will come automatically. You deal with sexism and sex will take care of itself. Dr. Amen. Well I just in response to your initial question which was why do women reach their peak of sexual gratification at a later age than men. It's a matter of all the philosophies expressed by Dr. Seidenberg but indeed it's a matter of their not having discovered themselves as human sexual beings not having recognized their own bodies to

participate in this and not having had any practice which the male is expected to have in the early development. Up his life. You know I heard a quote the other day from Iraq that radical feminist who said that female sexual dysfunction is a load of rot or words to that effect and the fault is really with the man it's a question of male incompetence. What do you think of that. What would be your reaction to that obsession. Well again I think it's it's real. Sex is not a communication. Sex is an expression of a communication. And to me if there hasn't been a communication between the two then the chances of having great sexual gratification lessens. I don't think it's necessarily the function of the male at times a woman can bring her hangups with her as a result residuals or her psychosexual development. But for the most part there have been management of sexual problems that entail training men and women how to. Which of course doesn't change psychic

enhancement but certainly can manage to some extent. Don't you think we're seeing more 20 year old young women who are functioning at the peak of sexual activity and enjoying it readily and could be said to be at their sexual peak and I reached it earlier now because some of them have gone to a more enlightened phase during their growing up maybe through more enlightened parents or maybe through more enlightened society contacts. It's difficult to say I don't know if we have any data but I'm sure that this is the expectation for the very next generation anyway. But your children and my grandchildren. Let's put it that way. What do you think of the traditional Floridian psychoanalytic Coleman interpretation of this problem. Well I think the whole problem about the discussion about variations in female sexual responsivity which just packs are medical and psychiatric journals and as I said has infiltrated into even the women's magazines which is supposed to leave on the coffee table McCall's and Good Housekeeping.

I think all of this and a lot of the myths and fallacies can be laid right to the door for Lloyd who did some marvelous things and was tremendous genius gave us great insights into the way a man functions but presented us with a psychological concept of a female that just turns me off totally. Now for oit his concept of a female was an undeveloped poorly developed specimen of a male. Somebody you knew was going to be permanently envious because her body builder wasn't the same as someone you would have to be passive submissive and masochistic in a sexual relationship. And then for I took one big step and said all this yeah all this is biologically ordained by virtue of the fact that the woman doesn't have a male sexual apparatus. And from there on we were caught in a spine. This let me ask you something rethought my spine because I think the way I like that something you know much of what Gloria says is true and it can't be denied but I'd like to add that much of

what the modern day sexologist are saying is no different than some of the bad parts of Freud and so that which modern day such a sexologist and which bad concept right. Well I think the mechanistic approach is that we have seen. The 10 day cures sexual difficulties the explanations of sexual relations purely on the physical mechanics they're very simplistic and really nonsense and to my mind and so that if you replace the bad in Freud with the bad of what is going on you know you're not ahead. I think the advances in this field will come not from physicians and not from sexologists it will come from women themselves and their own consciousness raising groups in their in their own liberation groups where they will be able to work these things out by themselves and not with the imposition of

experts who are going to tell them whether they should have clit or real orgasms or Vachel orgasms. All right but let's let's get down to the practicalities a woman has this problem. What does she do. Where does she go fast. She getting you know she got kind of one of the biggest problems we find that is that many physicians today are not taking a sexual history and not interested in the woman from a sexual point of view. Most physicians are interested in the woman from her physical. Aspects in terms of what dizzy she might have and really are not ready yet to probe the inner workings of the sexual activities and mind of the female. So what do you do when a woman comes to you with this problem. Well I feel that today many gynaecologist are beginning to recognize the importance of sexual behavior so that the woman who is being interviewed can at least feel that she has somebody to talk to and be reassured that her problems are not so great or they're not really problems that she's basically normal so in order to encourage along with her husband. Or do you interview her. I do as a matter of course interview a patient

alone without her husband. Although I do encourage patients to bring their husbands when they feel that the husbands are willing to come. I do find that quite frequently husbands are unwilling to come to discuss sexual problems. Many men who are married to women who are having difficulty having orgasms even though they publicly blame their mate. Deep down they feel that they are in some way inadequate and don't really wish to discuss it. The whole orientation towards achieving orgasm has become so compulsive that it actually subverts if you are what do you do in practicality. As far as treating this problem is concerned I feel the most important thing that you can do is encourage the woman to bring it out to discuss it to look at it to see what is actually bothering her to use the help. Have her understand that she's if she's able to achieve an orgasm that she is very normal that there's absolutely nothing wrong with her if she's getting satisfaction.

The only question is why is she disturbed about this is you disturbed because she's not having an orgasm during intercourse. And then make her aware that this is a very common occurrence that many women do not achieve orgasm during intercourse. That it would be almost the equivalent of expecting a male to achieve orgasm from say stroking of the thigh for the woman to respond directly to having orgasm with intercourse requires a much more subtle stimulation and not all women are uninhibited enough to do this. Dr. Robin how would your treatment approach differ. Well I would take issue with first of all with Dr. Seidenberg my equal time. That is no question there's no question in my mind about the basic truths that he expressed but I'm ready to look at any avenue of approach and we have the traditional psychiatric approach we have the concept. It helped through conscious raising consciousness raising and sexism. But we have behavior therapy where you know sexual dysfunction as a symptom that can be handled and corrected.

We have the Masters and Johnson approach which is two weeks not ten days Dr. Symes And I think that it's very important that people realize when they leave here and they screen these people and they view this again as a presenting pattern that in itself does not represent a symptom of a disease or disorder but something that can be helped and I am I guess I've been brainwashed but I'm ready to accept and I'm ready to try and I'm ready to make referrals and I'm ready to say that it's tremendously important that someone like Dr. Cope Lee who's you know be dining in this city and the future generations of Obie gaieties you Rollitt just whoever they are be physicians knowledgeable about sexual matters and be trained and taught even by male chauvinist pigs so that they get a bias I mean if this is the implication and even by women so that they are equipped with a minivan would you want I mean it's sort of in the service we're going to lose. But one of the points we made earlier was that

women are also a product of male teachers. And how does this you know contaminate me. While I'm not too contaminated and exactly what you said. For this reason that I feel that we do more good by talking to the women we see in our practice and encouraging them not to inhibit their children and their growing although certainly I feel we can accomplish much more if we can train a woman to realize that masturbation or stimulation of the genitals in infancy or childhood is not a provocative act it's not doing something to spite the parents it has absolutely nothing to do with any deep seated feeling of sexuality in an evil sense. So you were actually at highly This advocate entirely training the mother and the father to look at this upon it in a very natural way to encourage that their children to see them in loving embraces and treating sex as a natural and happy attitude not necessarily exhibiting themselves purposefully but not exactly fighting it either.

I feel that the more naturalism that can be brought into the family life regarding sex has a much more beneficial effect on our children than we can have in the office with any patient who already has problems. Just I'm concerned about the position that he himself doesn't bring his hangups into his value judgments about what is a so-called expected normal which really doesn't exist or perversion which is another. And I think it's critical that we have some kind of training. I know how to get around that. Good. The woman should go to the physician at all. Why should she have to join a women's liberation group consciousness raising sessions. Yeah that's what she should do first. How important do you think is body image for what to a successful for a successful wants and I think another is feeling that her body is beautiful and attractive and so forth. That's a lot of baloney but she should feel as if she is important attractive and that's what they never want that's what I really mean well and say it. Hi thank you for the case

of the automatic things you say when you say you never see a man's body should be important you say a woman should have a point about her body image you see the difference that a woman is learning to think a man should have who are not learning but this is a man would be insulted if you said Well aren't you worried about your body image the importance of it know you he's worried about the importance of himself and this is why women should feel not that women should be imitate men would be men. They should be people should be people and in this dichotomy of other languages just leads us into these blind alleys. I want to ask you one question before we close. What would be your criteria for successfully maintaining a healthy sexual relationship over an extended period of time. That couple would you like to see. Well it's a very broad topic. I feel that if you have a couple that enjoy each other and feel attracted to each other there's a good basis for beginning a long

relationship. However what happens to this relationship depends so much upon the attitudes that each has towards themselves. How strong they feel so that they can perhaps weather minor frustrations and storms that occur in every relationship if they have a good self-image they're much better able to feel love and give love when needed to the person who at other times the opposite person may have a need for this. Obviously any relationship encompasses giving and taking. And a person has to be strong to give my life but to say that I just sort of approached it from a different angle I was thinking in terms of what they might expect perhaps through the years of continuing sexual activity as only partners want to face communication in marriage. And one of the things that they care that their happiness in their sexual relationship isn't dependent on as we said before on a prescribed kind of orgasmic response. But it is dependent on

understanding that any activity any sexual activity that is non obligatory that isn't forced upon someone. And that is mutually gratifying that they both enjoy it it doesn't harm them physically or psychologically is part and parcel of lovemaking and makes them give them release. What happens if people treat each other with equality justice other aspects of the living will take care of itself. Thank you very much Dr. Copeland. Good night. Oh.