Woman; Women in Prison. Part 2

A. Woman tonight once again woman comes to you from station St.

Louis Missouri for the second of a two part look at women in prison last week at the Women's Correctional Center. Tonight we have in the studio Carole Dillard and Peggy Russell who were featured in that film and who are presently serving 25 year sentence. Welcome to both of you. The film was made over a year ago. Do you still feel like a rose. Frankly Sandy I fill quite a bit more withered and even though I hear that when you go to the grocery store and what the prisoners call the free world you have to take your bank book with you. I feel I'm ready to try the high prices. Thank you how much of your 25 year sentence Have you served already five years this August. And it seems like five centuries. We said the film was made over a year ago. What are the changes. There have been several

changes some for the good and some for the bad I believe. Of course prisons all over the country are experiencing overpopulation. This is a prison that was meant to fairly comfortably housed 85 and we now have a hundred and fifteen and are expected to have one hundred twenty two. This is going to put eight to 10 women in one fairly large room. The sentences are longer. Who are old boards are not inclined to let people go as readily. Whether this runs in cycles I don't know. We have a new superintendent. Taking over a superintendent's job is always a rough one because he has a lot of comparisons made by

both inmates and Sdeath. Before we head to college courses for instance come to the penitentiary. We were fortunate enough to accumulate credit few hours. Now they have two courses a nurse's aide and a light bookkeeping clerical where they're transported daily. This still isn't what the men are having who are in residence on campus in Rolla. So it's been a very difficult year of change and I think it's the most difficult year since I've been there. How do you account for more women coming into the prison I mean what's happening. I gess that Wish I could. Sure. I think judges can become much less lenient

with women. Than in the past. Alarmingly so. And younger women are coming into prison and so young that it's frightening how young 16 17 girls who I think should be on Youth Authority certainly not in the penitentiary. They're frightened they're lost. They're meeting people and hearing things that they shouldn't have to cope with. And those three years certainly. I think it's very tragic. And then the sentences have just become for the long term is outrageous and a great number of the women add to that which was never never built for long termers. It was built for short sentences Originally it was a girls reform school. And our 25 year sentence is minimal compared to some some of the

time that women are doing there. And the facilities are very small. The yard is very small. We're very poor it and we're kind of the dog's tail. But when it's you know your economic situation is very bad. I believe that the public could help and that by writing to their legislators You see when and when they figure budgets out for prison say they figure so much for head. And the larger your population really the luckier you are because you can buy it in large quantities and buy wholesale. Tipton is so small compared to just city for instance that with the same price for head. One city a male prison. Yes and it has a very large one it's twenty five hundred or so about that as being mean. And so they can buy in huge quantities whereas Tipton is so small and can buy in such small quantities that most wholesalers won't even

deliver to them. So that their food materials cost more. Even in commissary the matrons go out and try to find great things to buy for us. They're buying retail for our commissary and our commissary prices are very very high. So then state legislatures should find a different way of distributed. Yes. When they have a small penitentiary. A buck just doesn't go as far for it. I mean 80 dollars just won't buy and it's the same quantity as twenty five hundred dollars you know. And tipping is quite isolated and as I said the wholesalers simply don't feel that it spends enough money that it's worth their while to make a trip out there. Doesn't this really get back to the crux of the situation about the public's awareness of people in prisons. They feel once a person is put

behind bars so to speak. That we can forget about them and they're not willing to give their legislators the go ahead light to spind more money when in the long run. I know Peggy and I have been on many drug talks and we always try to point out that perhaps a few dollars spent now in training women for work will save them money in the long run because when a girl steals the merchant jumps up his prize. So in the long run the public is paying. I think a little dollar invested now. Might save them in taxes and higher prices and which dies. But I think in the Department of Corrections what they really need is some video show business a public relations

for women they certainly do. I really feel it's worse for women and I think it's much worse for women for one thing. The men's clothes are furnished them. Now they're not very dapper looking I admit but they are furnished. Tipped in the women for nice their own clothes. When they have the material and often they don't have the material. You're given one dress when you come in there and kind of a funny looking little pair of pajamas. And that's kind of weird looking too. But sometimes they don't even have the material to give you that. And when you're arrested your friends or your acquaintances descend on you like buzzards and you simply are robbed blind of everything that you left behind. So it's quite rare that any of your clothes ever reach you. We have one mate whose name was Smith there. Anyone saw the

picture saw Smitty's boat. Well Smitty has just sort of started it herself. These are clothes that people donate. But they're not new. Do you have to buy them. No she gives them to us. But they're not new and they're not the latest style and. I mean you don't you don't look like you step out of a heavy carnate when how much money do you get a month. Now there are different. Now there has been improvement one of the good good changes when the picture was made the maximum that a girl could ever earn was three dollars a month. No they had the minimum she can earn is five and they have a lot of $10 a month paying jobs and several 15:15 is as high as it goes. And of course we all know that women also have personal needs that the men don't

have. So I think I know it's very tragic when you see it especially girls that come from poor families and the families seem to think that the penitentiary furnishes an everything. But it doesn't it really costs quite a bit. And this is not counting on buying yourself a bottle of cologne which you can do if you can afford. But trying to keep your personal appearance as a woman and. Is is this sign of continuing good mental feelings and you buy your juices they will change you're a lingerie for you every hour or every three months. But isn't that all the clothing any makeup anything else it would cost.

It kust I would say to really buy your coffee and if you smoke that's a big thing. But it costs to to live just fairy would buying a few candy bars between 30 and 40 dollars a month. Fifty dollars is the highest book we're allowed to buy and if you're a heavy smoker then that about takes that up and as Peggy mentioned the prices are very high. And. It is so it does cost money to live in prison. Now there's a new rule that we can only spend $50 every three months for clothes. And sure yeah I'll pay for shopping. But oranges are fruit. Yes it's sounds to me like things have gotten tougher. Yes they have and that way you know. I mean you want to look halfway well-dressed to God know if you've lost your identity. And you don't want to look around looking like a complete freak you

feel enough like a freak being in there you know everything there is ugly and barbed wire and bars and things like this so it makes you feel more like a human being if you can if you can have a halfway attractive close I don't know I'm sure you just think he said the hardest thing about being there or something else. Being in prison the loss of identity yes the loss of decision the loss of selectivity. You know you can't select your friends their aunts their arm can't talk to another door. There are hours when you can go outside. That's hard. Another thing that's hard is that it seems that the women of the. Of Tipton I visited had various times with very serious illnesses. I've had a mastectomy recently. Carol had both breasts removed and plastic surgery quite recently. Another friend of mine had a hysterectomy. She had cancer of the

uterus. These are not unusual things in Tipton. Many of the girls are ill really ill and. So when you come back of course the first thing an institution has to do is maintain itself. So that means that everyone has ghastly little jobs like mopping and sweeping and polishing and waxing. But this doesn't teach you how to make a living when you leave that tree. I can see who are these assignments could possibly be given in the morning or in the mornings. But certainly there should be training facilities at Tipton. Now we're seconds knows this and is trying to set them up. But you can't set them up without funds for short termers. There are many many professions these women could learn. It's an obligation now that they get their GED or their high school equivalency test but still list doesn't fit them

to make a living. They're like cordless switchboard work can be learned in just a few months. Even if it were learned on the dummy switchboard if they were a few professions like this offer the short termers. Most of you who come from impoverished families or ghetto districts and they come into prison. They. Learn They only do things when the bell rings or somebody tells them to. They go out scarred lonely alienated from the people they've loved no better fit to make a living than when they came in just a little more be wilderness and a little less ready to cope with society. It seems a waste to me that some part of that two year sentence just a tiny part of it. Couldn't be given to teaching these women professions that are in demand whether there's a depression or a

recession or whatever it may be like. As I say I'm using cordless switchboard work because it's so simple to learn and is so very much in demand and there always is a demand for this kind of work. I'd like to see dippin have more programs like this here but it is not usual in that is it. No prisons are no more instruments prisons. As I said where the dogs tail the women's you know because less women are sentenced to prison than when. This is rather tragic to theirs. There's a rumor afoot that the man is a breadwinner and perhaps this is true amongst people who don't go to jail or prison. But I thought a tragically true in prison it's usually the poor old gal that's doing the time that's going to go out there and earn the bread believe me. Not only supporter children were probably year old men too when she gets to me a very interesting thing before that you know and that is that most women who are there have husbands who are also in prison. Yes

that's quite prevalent and and it's also customary to let the man go first on the theory that he will go out and make a living. But it seems to me that the state should consider the children. Children needs the mother first believe me. And as I said these women usually are the breadwinners anyway. I don't think students and I don't think in did you say that you thought most states that the women's prison were only met with the impression I get is that lots of women's prisons don't have a lot of job education going on. Well again we get back to the actual geographical size and the and the money but I don't think it's true in all states. We were the only other time that we had was in

California rehabilitation center and we rented a cottage at the main women women's prison which is a California to do should for women for women. And. Of course California is a richer state and and they were left at the dogs end of the tail you know as a matter of fact. I am writing to a friend there now and they give college courses on campus. I mean every day it does just come in once a week and look at you for a minute and leave. And this girl was telling me that she was taking five courses because she was hers. In other words she had that was timing her college courses to her sentence so that she actually would would graduate with a degree and I don't mean to a degree. I mean a decent degree. And now the women there I once again we get down to money and once again I beg everyone who seeing this program if they know anyone who is in prison or if they

are at all concerned about women in prison please write to their legislators either the only people who can help us and asked them to to pay some attention to the needs of women in prison women in prison. The young girls are going to go out and become wives and mothers and. The women who are are already wives and mothers are are not being trained properly because there aren't enough Fons and there are emotional scars that take place in prison that are very very difficult to overcome. And as I said your self-image becomes zero. And if you're a convict you better have a profession. You had better have. Carol there are a couple of terms that you mentioned to me before the show. Yes. One with the squeaky wheel gets greased. What does that mean take the SLN.

Because I thought I heard when I first came in there and has been hearing me ever since the different strokes for different folks. Now we realize that there are certain fundamental rules that have to be obeyed by everyone. But if a girl wants to try to better herself or needs a little extra time to do something. Like study Well you can study if you if you just really it's a hard there's not enough rooms again we're back to size the billing. What I'm trying to say is that if. They would come out and say yes it is. It has got to be different strokes for different folks. The world is different strokes for different folks. But those strokes are earned in almost every penitentiary. Men's and Women's. There are some sort of

great whereby they either call it year in grade 1 2 or 3 or they have an honor draw arm in other words this different strokes for different folks. That is just an excuse for bad behavior and takes away incentive. And it infuriates me every day every time that I hear it and should be flexible enough and those in authority. You should. Be sure enough of their decision making to allow enough flexibility and. And common sense with it that if one girl is trying to do something constructive and has a loud role this is just just making this up. But as the law say for instance to leave her alive an hour later. But she's working on something that's an important project and she's had no disciplinary

action. It is different strokes for different folks and until they learn this this is the way the world goes and I think that's responsible for a lot of the research that happens because that goes along then with the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Because you see I'm a veteran. Not all of them but most of them. I don't think of them as. The police you know. They're women from the local community. By necessity almost because very few even. I've talked to some younger college people who wanted to go into pain ology and they don't want to travel the distance to take those jobs. But most of them. Are. Assembled. From women or have worked and. You know they're not very sophisticated they don't know some of the problems they have to deal with. They want to come to

work and I don't blame them and have a peaceful evening. So sometimes. They will pacify those who make the most noise. But this isn't helping the girl either because you can't do this and there were some in the very. Same things that would be just the opposite of what you have to do to get by in the world. Thank you. What about the sexual deprivation. I don't I think America is very behind in this. I imagine you're speaking of husband wives. I don't know how they're going to solve the situation I think should we sell out. I think it's very difficult. I have a friend who actually sort of dances up a little bit so that she won't be identifiable to the woman that dipped in. I have a friend who is very much in love with her husband and they have a small child

and. He comes to see her diligently. And of course he brings that little girl too and the little girl doesn't see her often. And if the husband even touches his wife or starts to kiss little girls as we do we too you know. So naturally good luck the child. But they they have no time really. Together you know and it's a very lonely thing. They know they don't want that little child to be fit to feel left out. But there's so many things they need to talk about. So many reassurances they need to give each other they're not able even able to speak intimately to each other in front of this little child. To reassure each other of their love. I hope someday prisons will be advanced enough that when men and women are married. That certainly there should be some some way. That visits could

be arranged over the weekend. At least this to hold a family together. You know because this is a normal natural. This is what life is all about. And it's tragic to see families broken up or alienated by prison. And it does do this. It's prison as you're experiencing it a deterrent a deterrent to crime. Yes. I don't think so. I don't think anything is done and they say that you sent him to prison as punishment not for punishment. But you are punished in prison. You're not on The only are punished for the things that you do. But if someone else does something they punish the whole prison for it. Let me see if I can think of something. Say somebody. I would I'm just making up a situation say somebody a friend would sneak some booze into them. A typical prison reaction would be to stop all

picnic lunches. So now here there would be what we want a girl who had gotten a bottle of booze sneaked into in a pitch picnic basket and a typical prison reaction is oh we're just stopping picnic lunches that I just finished that. Now all of the women who haven't done anything you know this is supposed to make you dislike the girl who caused it. But instead of that it makes you resent the staff. Who were punish you when you haven't done anything. You know this is an all hostage system that was out of style in ancient Rome you know and it wasn't too popular with Hitler either. But it's the same thing it's a hostage system one girl misbehaves you all suffer. This phantom hearing. And you wonder why I bother to behave you're going to be punished anyway. You know this particular hard. Long termers. I believe that my figures aren't pretty close to accurate but the

superintendent looked looked them over and I believe he said. That we have about a third maybe over a third of the women serving 10 years or over. And you know there is not everyone needs breathing space. AS. It gets more dense. Nerves get worse and. The long termers. Want to do their time as peacefully as possible. Get what education they can get what they can make some use of their time there. But when you coming through for two or three years I do young it's kind of a very sorry to tell you this but we're completely out of touch. I wish we could talk much longer. I thank you both for coming. We've enjoyed it. It's been a pleasure and thank you for watching. Good night.

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