Woman; 438; Northern Irish Question: Another View

One day one woman. Good evening. Tonight more on the Northern Irish question. With me is Patricia Davidson Patricia its press officer for the Ulster executive provisional Shin Fein Shin Fein is the political wing of the Republican movement.

Patricia is an office manager for a local doctor in Belfast. Also with me is Mary McNichol Mary a secretary of United Brooklyn Irish. She is a member of the Northern Irish aid. Mary works closely with the Irish National Caucus. The caucus is a coalition of 37 major Irish-American organizations. Welcome to both of you. Thank you so Patricia one of the major issues seems to be at least in this country is the fact that there are people who are saying do not send any more money to Northern Ireland because it is going for guns and bombs. Would you want to comment on that. Well that is a totally inaccurate statement. When one takes into consideration that there are over 2000 political prisoners being held in Ireland England and America the money that northern aid would send to our land is for the support of the dependents of those prisoners and something in the region of sixty four thousand dollars per week is paid to the dependents of people who are in prison.

So what knowing it would stand would only be a small drop in the ocean about amount of money per week and that money is going to those families in the coming money is going to those families in some cases many children are involved when their fathers are imprisoned. Now you mention political prisoners you said. Ireland England and America. That is correct. What about the political prison prisoners here. They are also supported in exactly the same way that their families I mean their support of me Sarkozy and we as their supporters in England and in Ireland. Mary who are those political prisoners there. Well one of them has just been released. And another one is going to be released on the fourth I believe of April. Jim Cullen from Belfast in fact they were ready to deport him but there was such a thing. And i cry from all over the United States that they deportation proceedings were dropped. So he's going to be released on the 4th of April. I am not quite sure if the other's name sounds either something like this.

Well I just I just mentioned it because I think there are people who aren't aware that there are I'm sure that political prisoners here. Yes and your own kind and was sentenced for conspiracy to send arms. I think you know when Patricia They are essentially two peace movements and NE island you really don't like to say Northern Ireland you know the North of Ireland are the six countries is more preferable to Northern Ireland and one is the Republican movement which which you are a member. That's right and the other is is the movement started by Betty Williams and Laurie Corrigan. That's right and I'd like to talk to you about the different philosophies of the two movements. Well the peace movement has formed in August 1976 has no finding mission as such it always disillusions to the continued rule and Ireland of Britain as such has nothing to offer the people in terms of a lasting and a permanent peace

of the peace that we envisage in the Republican movement would be a peace with justice but justice based on the fleet him off guard and from England. And this can only be gained by England putting her stocks and going to peace if peace were gained by the peace movement. It would only be a recipe for further strife in another ten years. There has been rebellion and war in Iran and these 800 set it hundred years. So the peace movement if they gain peace at their price it will only be a temporary measure whereas what we're looking for is the British to withdraw the communities to get together and a lasting and permanent peace based on freedom. Essentially the difference is that you have a policy and they do not a program rather than than a policy a policy isn't quite correct on with us of it that is exactly right. That is right. Let's talk a little bit about your policy for instance are you in favor of unification. We are in favor of unification of of the whole of our and

turning it into the country that it once was. Thirty two countries. That is what we envisage and our programme for that is called Air anew which is the new art and that is the dissemination of the two states. Six Counties and twenty six countries and putting in its place a thirty to kindy and elected by the whole people not by two states within the one country and that can only be gained by the British withdrawing and not context. There would be an election. All the people of are and would elect a government that would be suited to them. We have a policy within the hour a new document which is federalism and it's not unlike the American way of government and not our own and would be broken up into four states and the four historic provinces Auster Munster and answer and comment in this way. Each region would determine its own affairs and be responsible to a central part and which would be based in somewhere like us which is the very

center of Arne. And from there we would hope that the loyalist population in A-lister would take an active part in that and not government. How would you how do you provide in your in your federal policy for lessening some of the fears about separation of church and state I mean this with be in a way somewhat threatening to some of the other groups rights that some of the processing groups that it is that has been a fear of the loyalist during the centuries it has been a fear in gendered by British in that when Britain separated and when it divided into two different states it gave over to the Protestant control over the lives of the Catholic Nationalist population. And we can understand that the Protestant Unionist would have a fear of going into the size of Ireland and that there's no dissemination of church and state.

The church has considerable influence over the government under such. The Loyalists would feel very threatened in that environment within the Republican movement. Our policy is for the separation the total separation of church and state by which we could guarantee absolute civil liberties and the rights of the unionist loyalist would be guaranteed. You think you can defend that. Absolutely. What about an issue for instance like abortion which I would imagine would would be part of this kind of thing. Again that would be left entirely to the individual under the present system. In the 26 countries abortion is not permitted. My personal view on abortion is that it is murder. Right but that isn't why I am expressing a personal view. Being a Catholic but again with the separation of church and state it would be left entirely in the hands of the individual up to their own conscience on why they would determine that unless it

became a matter of all you know depending on high government would determine its policy on that. But certainly my own personal viewpoint not the viewpoint of of the movement that I represent is that abortion is unacceptable it's murder. Well it also would be the viewpoint of most of the people in your movement would it not. Quite a considerable proportion. But again they would be democratic enough to leave it to the individual NSA pick him. As I say a point of law within a new government. I mean as a result of maybe a national referendum or something like that something of that kind. With the feeling of most of the Irish-American organizations in this country I mean what where do they stand. And I know you can't speak for them officially but you certainly work with them closely and you know what their policies are. Yes well Lou I know quite a lot of Irish Americans and we're all very closely tied in with what's happening because most of it is this is our homeland. We'll never forget that it is and how much our people have suffered during the years. And we feel that if

this struggle is not going to be ended right now. God knows when it will be ended. My children will have to take up the fight. The following generation will have to take up the fight as has happened throughout history. Every generation has been since the 1790 everybody and I believe it lies. There's been an uprising approximately every ten years or so. So do most of the organizations and say the caucus. Support the federal policy which you say we support a date I can only speak for myself again. I support Shin Fein 100 percent. The kind of security that you you must have some reading I mean you've been in this country and you know what kind of support you have and when certainly the people that I have met I was hired here and told her last year and I've been out from the 12th of March this year. Certainly the people that I have met believe me and no direct us to the support that the struggle is an art and it has an unqualified support from any clipping that I have met and the Irish grouping that I have met here the caucus

northern AIDS United broken Irish you know the support that we have I think the struggle will soon be over. Would it be fair to say that the majority support you. I would say so yes. You know certainly the majority of the people that I have met support all of them do. You help raise money. Yes that's what happens when someone comes along and says don't send money. It has made us very resentful because we you know I find that out for myself. I went home and found myself with the money was going to talk with a lot of people. Who were almost totally supported by the money coming through and coming Cora. So I know as an aid to specialize and this is the quote that I work with most often. One of the things that's difficult Patricia when when Americans talk about what's happening and happening in Northern Ireland is there's a tremendous confusion in terms and it's usually brought down to Protestant versus Catholic or

Catholic versus Protestant and that's really very inaccurate isn't it. It's inaccurate from the point of view that we might as well be Jews and Arabs or Muslims and Buddhists at the British whenever they divided the country. They looked at the portion all the people as their right. They find that in six counties Ulster was the loyalist recognizes of six counties but the historic problems has not been kind to night. The British recognizing that they were going to have a power hold in the north of Ireland. Took six counties away from the thirty two and they gave over to the million Protestant who are known as loyalists. They gave over to them complete ruin over that six countries. And this is why they have used the two communities one to suppress the other in order for the British to maintain their own interests. So it wouldn't have mattered whether they were black or white. Yellow or green. It was immaterial to the British. They use what was there

that was that the inhabitants of the country wanted to suppress the other. It didn't matter to us it's not a sectarian war. To us it's a war to. Evict. The British intruder from our country. So really more proper terms would be nationalist and union the nationalists and Unionist nationalists and loyalist would be a more proper term. Is it part of your federal policy getting the British to withdraw from Northern Ireland immediately. No the three basic demands of the Republican movement which have been repeated time and time again. Indeed they were the subject of two bilateral truces with the British government are a phased orderly withdrawal of the British army under the ministration and that could be in terms of years depending on how long it would take for the British to extricate themselves right. The second one would be an amnesty for all political prisoners which would come. In any event if the British withdrawal that would be automatic. The third one which would be thereafter would be the self-determination of the Irish people.

Is it possible that the British will withdraw from Northern Ireland I mean do you have any sign that that might be going to happen. There's absolutely no diet that they're withdrawing at this moment. But the problem with the way that they're doing it at the present time is that there are they're taking out some of their soldiers right the troop levels have been reduced from about 15000 to about it and I'm size and they are rearming the RUC and increasing the strength of the D.R.. Now what we want is for the British to give you all you probably better say the UDR is the Ulster Defense regiment which is another name for the paramilitary ultra loyalist B Specials. Right. They are being armed at this moment by the British government. What we want to British to do is to give us a public declaration of their intention to leave. This will create a climate where by the loyalists will realize that he can no longer depend

on the British for support and that he will have to look to his nationalist brother to get round a table and talk it out and decide we're aren't as going without the Brits the British. But while the British dragged their heels on the question of publicly declaring themselves to leave the agony that is Ireland today will be as prolonged and the deaths will go on because the loyalists will hold on to that last glimmer that the British are going to stay. But we see the signs that they're going to. Let's talk a little bit about the IRA. One of the things that kept running through our conversations earlier was the misinformation that we're all getting and the distortion. And one of the things before we get into the distortion that I like to talk about is the image of the IRA in this country. And it's if you'll pardon me for saying so it's a bad image. We hear about the IRA killing bombing that kind of thing. And that's mostly what

we hear about. Well that certainly is how the propaganda machine has worded the IRA right from the beginning of time. But if there was no British in Ireland there would be no IRA and that is the basic It's putting it in a very simplified form. But if there was no British in Ireland i.e. their army and their administration there would be no need for the IRA. The IRA are a direct result of British violence in Ireland. The British came to our land in violence. They have maintained the state in violence and the IRA is a direct product of that institutionalized violence. What about the charges that the IRA is responsible for the death of innocent people. What a low I wouldn't profess to speak on behalf. I have done some very careful studies of deaths in the north of iron from 1968 and

whilst it's not always nice to categorize people who are dead my facts and figures have proven beyond all doubt that 75 to 80 percent of the deaths from 1969 have been caused as a direct result of British involvement i.e. British soldiers have killed people or their loyalist paramilitary organizations have killed people. The IRA have been responsible for deaths and they would not hide that fact themselves. But they have been minimized and they have tried to minimize casualties as far as possible. Indeed many of the casualties are themselves. Here you have an example of some of our misinformation I mean the distortions and distortion I've come across. One example I had when I called up the Associated Press. To give them a lot of the information that came from Sinn Fein. Beth I just said we can either accept that and use except it comes through London who we know in

turn get it from Lisbon said Belfast which is the British army headquarters. So that sounds kind of you know blatantly biased to me taking one side only. And then. And the another and as they get to START the news or kill it. Peter Martin is a CBS correspondent in Belfast. And at a recent press conference here in the United States. Someone asked him why are we not getting the news of these torture from our land and he said well I have sent several reports on it but it is killin you. It has been killed in New York. So these are two blatant day. Examples but I could go on and on forever and we call them daily to protest the distortions and the lies. So it is very widespread. We don't know how best to go about it to contracted. Apparently there's enough lot of money being put into this country from the British Information Services. And that's assuming

my guess would about the torture. Our government is now sort of gotten into the act and has been pretty Patrik protesting on a human rights level. When Mr Carter Your president has actually come light on recently in Massachusetts I think Mary has some information on that. He has come out and spoke about the torture the deprivation of human rights in the north of Ireland. And certainly we are very glad to see that someone of his caliber house come forward we hope that it will be sustained and that it will have some effect although I personally do not believe that it will have any effect because the British have been proven guilty of torture of Stroudsburg and have actually publicly admitted the torture of their defense secretary. Some silicon has said he's made a promise to be a very good boy and there's been no more torture but this torture is going on Dan daily. Three weeks ago a young mom who is a patient of the doctor that I worked for was pushed through a window two stories up as a result the left side of his head was caved in his eye came out

I don't know whether he's dead or not yet I haven't heard any news from home. But this is the torture that was on Dan daily. They have a new system of detention by which very young people are detained for seven days. On what grounds are they picked up they're picked up on suspicion of being a member of an illegal organization that is the general term used to being a member of an illegal organization. Mostly this act is applied to the nationalist community very rarely is it applied to the Loyalist community. In fact I have never heard of any cases of it being applied to the larger community. But it means that a child and someone say 16 17 years of age is taken into custody and is held there incommunicado for seven days and is interrogated nonstop for seven days and after which any child would be willing to sign it into any confession. I have no doubt about that. Have you ever been arrested. I have been arrived at. I was sentenced on one occasion

to a suspended sentence for having illegal documents things like that. Purely political charges. But I certainly have no qualms about supporting the republican movement I support him to the hilt and the British know that well what do you think. You say that torture is continuing now and you have you know firsthand information about that. What anybody that is charged. Anybody that is arrested and goes into a detention center physically fit like myself. At this moment I'm physically fit and ends up being charged when I'm bad in hospital. Something has to have gone wrong in the interim period. Would you agree. Are you talking about more a drum. No I'm not only talking but more of I'm talking about young people that are being charged in mental institutions. We had recently two cases of two young boys and larking Both were charged at a hospital bedside with an offense. When I went into the detention center physically fit and they ended up in a mental institution. So what went

on in the interim period. This is daily life in the north of Ireland. We have people in Derry being gassed before interrogation to make them more amenable to the questions being put to them. What about more drama I think a lot of people don't really understand what happened to her. Well. Mara drum was arrested after a parade. What there you see that's the Royal Ulster Constabulary is set to step Gestapo type fascist police force and they arrested her on charges were attempting to charge her with taking part in an illegal parade i.e. the period took part without them knowing about it. That's what they call an illegal parade she was held under the seven day Detention Act. It totally destroyed her physically and as a result of that also an eye problem that she had. She ended up in hospital a worn out shell. That's the only way I can describe it I saw her the night before she was killed.

She said that she would never get over that seven days detention. So if a child of 16 17 18 hostages throughout the seven days. Well one can only imagine what their minds must be like. What defense do you have against this kind of you know them just to be careful against that the tension. Yes none none absolutely none. Just then we were picked up to begin with. When you can't avoid that unless you step out of your home and if you step out of your home have something to hide. So you might as well not bother. There's no there is no defense against it. And you have absolutely no rights whatsoever under it under the Act. You have no right so a lawyer doesn't help you know a lawyer a doctor a priest solicitor. There's litters. No one sees you but your interrogators and could this happen to anyone or anyone north or south of the border. South also. It's also very much so. Mary you wanted to talk about a statement that Carter made when he was a candidate.

Yes that was before you became president his remarks before the Irish National Caucus in Pittsburgh in a covered 27 in which he said the word no is that it is a mistake for our country's government to stand quiet on the struggle of the Irish for peace. For the respect of human rights and for unifying our land. We hold great faith in President Carter. We're waiting and hoping that he does more in this area. You spoke tonight human rights and Soviet Union in Chile etc. but I just heard yesterday that he did speak out in Massachusetts two weeks ago. You mentioned the deprivation of human rights and I think style and so we hope hope is high. And on that subject. Congressional hearings are being called for by the Irish American community toward what end Mary. What do you think is better a good use of human rights and I don't know at the start and. And these are being backed up by you know

the many congressmen and women and they're still coming in they're still adding their names to it so hopefully we're going to have these open hearings because it is a dire need for them. And we feel convinced that when the American people have all the evidence that I had there in front of them and all the reports come in that they will give us much more support. And I struggle towards unifying out and getting the British that are suffering the suffering of our people will come to an end very shortly. Patricia I've heard an awful lot about what daily life in Belfast is like. Well it's hard to describe it but it's much the same as life here. I mean there is obviously the danger that with bombs with the British army with the loyalists carrying assassinations and that is what has become a very real fact of life. But it doesn't deter the people Living life they live

as normally as they can considering the circumstances in which they live it and I think they live a full life. But we would like to see peace heard about you know tremendous poverty we've heard about crime we've heard about alcoholism we've heard about wife beating that kind of thing. Poverty is not a problem. People obviously can always do with more. You know they can do with more money more luxuries things I got but I tried poverty people starving to death is not a real fact of life in Arab and. Size. I have heard of some cases but they're there for a minute. They're not even worth considering that crime and real crime are just outside of the political arena. Laws are virtually nonexistent when one relates it to other countries in the world which do have a very high incidence of crime and things like rape murder for gain or murder for passion that type of thing was very very little of the type of crime drug pushing drug

taking virtually nonexistent. There are as a whole has been relatively free of that type of crime on Fortunately with each rising each reason to try and get rid of the British. There is a certain element of violence but it is not from. A purely self-centered selfish point of view which most of the violence is throughout the world. We have not been suffering a great deal of that type of violence so we are getting a somewhat distorted view. We're out of time. And Mary thank you very much. Thank you for watching and good night. This program was produced by me soley responsible for

its content. Make your funding was provided by public television stations. Additional support was provided by unrestricted general program grants from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and the Ford Foundation. A.