Ch 17 Reports

So I'm satisfied. Fire mostly drilling for natural gas unlike during say. Ah the Lake Erie Basin community is absolutely opposed to. Drilling for either gas or oil. And the reason we say oil is because there is a will there is a possibility of contaminating the drinking water supply for 11 million people. On Channel 17 reports this week we'll examine the pros and cons of drilling for natural gas in Lake Erie looks Brora the potential dangers as well as the benefits of such a project. In a report that takes us to both sides of the great lake one question that remains

unanswered is the mixing of gas and water with the risk. The focus in recent years has been on saving Lake Erie from pollution. However realizing that a potential bonanza natural gas lies off our shores. The New York State legislature repealed a ban on drilling in the lake after a strict environmental and safety standards were established. A recent study prepared by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency says the pollution risk will be minimal. Opponents fear that such drilling will affect the drinking water from Lake Erie which services as many as 11 million people. Proponents point to the success Canada has had with Lake Erie drilling for natural gas for almost 70 years. If the federal government gives approval to a final environmental report drilling for natural gas in Lake Erie could begin in the summer of 1982 when it was my bill in 1977 that lifted the prohibition. On drilling for natural gas Unlike Kerry before the legislature passed that

we did an extraordinarily complex and federal investigation of the environmental damage that we might occur if if there was drilling for natural gas within New York's boundaries of Lake Erie and we came up with a negative answer on that. There would be no environmental damage. Do you have any idea how many gas from ations we may have here in Lake Erie in the Buffalo area. Well the gas formations in the area are those that you really projecting from land with out under the lake bed. Our projections show that if one were to drill for gas in the New York area you could expect about an 80 percent chance of striking at gas the kind of cubic feet of we talking about roughly. Well what talking roughly in the entire Lake Erie Basin somewhere in excess of a trillion cubic feet.

Why not just settle for the land drilling at this time rather than going into the lake. Don't we have sufficient natural gas and other waiting to be tapped with a very limited amount of power. Hard natural resources in oil and gas in New York State. But their importance is quite great because what is on state land and under state waters. If it can be used for the benefit of all the citizens becomes an important part of our environmental and economic package. Is there really a need for a lake area gas. Yes there is because of the importance of this product to. Maintain our lowest cost of energy to be able to control what we have in New York State to the best advantage of all the citizens. It's an important productive natural resource. You do think that there is a lot of natural gas available and in fact I would point out that the great push for drilling in Lake Erie came in the middle 70s. There was not then a realization of the amount of natural gas and oil that is probably under the

ground in western New York and all over New York State. I think there was an assumption by some people that in the foreseeable future we would be able to get a great amount of natural gas and oil from the New York state because most of it had been drained out and we now know and we're almost certain that that's just not true. So the situation has really dramatically changed in the last few years. I'll tell you one of the thing that's changed is the higher prices have made it much more. Much more available to producers to dig deeper into the earth's crust to get out the natural gas away from the from the lake which is even more expensive. Well back in 1977 when the bans on drilling in Lake Erie were lifted or allowed to expire the three states involved. We then determined that it would be prudent to develop an environmental impact statement in anticipation of one or all of the state's

developing gas in Lake Erie. Is this a decision making policy. The environmental impact statement itself is not a decision making document. The environmental impact statement is a tool that I in the decision making process. The purpose of the environmental impact statement is to provide me information to determine whether the development of the gas resources in Lake Erie can be done in an environmentally acceptable way. You have to realize that when they were doing the draft environmental impact study on Lake Erie drilling and that the reports on any accidents were closed to the core. They were not allowed to even look at them they were told that there were no accidents. But they were not allowed to see any reports or any of them get into the files at all for that sort of thing. Also you have to remember that. The Canadian citizens do not

depend on Lake Erie for drinking water. And you have to also remember that the Canadian side of Lake Erie is less polluted than our side. You have to realize that in Ohio Pennsylvania New York these are all in Michigan. These are all heavily industrial areas. That have been pouring toxics and chemical and chemicals and industrial affluence into Lake Erie over the past hundred years. Now many of these have settled in the settlements now when you compare the Canadian side you realize that they haven't contributed this. So when they look at their drilling operation they say well our Canadian our drilling operation is not a problem. But your industry is. And when you compare it like that you can understand why the Canadians were allowed to continue drilling after the IGC actually decided that there should be no drilling on the American side.

But there comes a point of contamination where the environments are overloaded and beyond which you just can't go without severe consequences and there frankly we in western New York are going to have to say you know we we're not we can't always be the people whose environment has to be contaminated if it has to be done of course it should never be done if it has to be done why does it always have to be here. And I think the Sierra Club is saying it shouldn't be done here and if we have anything to do with it it's not going to be done. How do you feel about the possibility that Americans will be drilling for natural gas here in Lake Erie in the near future. I think that's fantasy because we do need it. If you look at the train if you look evaluate the demand and resource that we have we do need to spend every dollar to find out new resources and Lake Erie is a potential source. Now there may be some problems associated with that. But if you have to evaluate it from the basis of what we're going to

get and what sort of damage it may produce you need to make a balance between these two. And to me at least it looks like that. Positive aspect is much more in terms of providing more natural resources that we do we don't need. How can we be sure that drilling will be safe environmentally. Well I guess there are no guarantees but the most impressive argument that I've dealt with is a fact that the province of Ontario and the Canadian government have been drilling on their northern half of Lake Erie for the last 65 years. I don't know how many dozens of wells you have scattered really from the 40 region right down to Windsor. But there have been no significant environmental problems stemming from that. There's no real oil under the lake. We know there is a lot of natural gas. So I'm convinced that.

With 65 years of practical growing experience behind them. Nova difficultly that we wouldn't have any on our side of the lucky Canadian experience in extracting gas from Lake Erie is cited by nearly every proponent of drilling they've been doing it for decades and see no problems if New York and other states follow the same program for protecting the environment. Sidney Keene of the Ministry of Natural Resources in London Ontario. We go of approximately twelve hundred that we are presently producing 500 wells. In the lake. And how many cubic feet of gas do you feel having him produce about seven billion cubic feet of gas a year. Canada has been drilling for natural gas in Lake Erie for almost 70 years now. Are you aware of any major environmental problems during that time. Is the I'm aware of that's caused any environmental

problems. I think many other problems of luck there with the other guest of history. Pollution comes from big cities much greater scope than anything that you can ever visualize with or against any one reason Americans have stayed away from Lake drilling is the high cost. This rig at Port Colburne Ontario is worth 10 million dollars and one day could be drilling for gas on the American side of the lake if and when a decision is made to go for the gas. Well if we were going to move out from here we would bring a captain aboard and a crew. Probably 30 man. We would Jack the rig. Hydraulically. Down into the water until it floated. We have a pad underneath us if we pick off lake bottom. And then we would become a ship. Complete with all navigation equipment and

everything that you need to run a ship. Compasses gyroscopes depth recorders radar and radar and were self propelled. We have two engines that that move us and we can move it about two mile an hour to whatever spot you'd want us to be in the lake. And what happens to the captain when you finally get over the spot. OK when I get on the spot we jack our legs back down again until they touch bottom. Jack the rig out of the water about 12 feet and. Then we become a drilling rig and we send the captain home. And who takes over until pressure at that point assumes everything is in charge and say it was a cap would be on the ship. What kind of a crew are we talking about here. Well when you're top rate the rig you need about six man that's to actually operate at any one time. Now we normally work 12 hours a day so there's always two six man crew aboard at any one time. When you fracture. In your drilling

you vented before you start drawing the gas. Is this well vented for a day or two or three. Yes we fracture the formation. That's mostly sandstone. You mentioned the fracture of the sandstones and there's a clean up process. For possibly harmful fluids collected and then transported to shore when the world is in a position to reclaim gas they will then be produced to clean up fairly before being tied into the flow of life in which case it does get vented to the atmosphere. Nothing dangerous is going to cause any type of environmental damage during the venting process or you start drying it out.

We have pretty strict controls all of possible the environmental hazardous operation. And wave operated successfully for 70 years without any problems that we're aware of. And I see no reason with no more monitoring by an organization that we have in place. We have inspectors to do this sort of thing and they go out and monitor and so the operations on the lake all the time. I think with this solar system you would not only expect any hazard. And as I say we've been doing this for 70 years and I can see why we can't continue doing this sort of production. Well joining for our Lake Erie gas be safe environmentally. You just asked me the question that I hope to come up with a decision on later on this year draft environmental impact statement that we distributed last

fall indicates that the impacts associated with gas drilling if done accordance with the with the reference program that we developed and the constraints under that reference program the impacts associated with that may be minimal. How will it affect our drinking water. There are several way an accident for instance. There is the bile accumulation disturbing the toxics. That are already in the sediment. Well you realize that most of these sediments move. I don't know if you remember about several years back when they had the problem with mercury in the Western basin. There was quite a controversy at the time what do we do about this do we dredge it or do we cover it over. And they said well we'll just leave it alone and let it cover over and as long as it doesn't rain remains in place that it won't be a

problem. But they discovered that these sediments moved and the sediments move along the south shore of the lake with the currents. And you'll find that the mercury has moved from the Western basin into the Central Basin and is rapidly moving into the eastern basin of Lake Erie. So when you drill it's not just exploratory drilling but the whole development picture. Pipeline and drilling for the placement of the rigs the whole entire operation. You would be re suspending these toxics in your water column which could be taken in with water intakes. Then you had a problem of oil spills. You have the problem with salt because there there is salt brine and salt that's beneath the like. You cannot just say well there are no salt beds in New York State. This is the entire U.S. side. And there is definitely salt. Underneath Lake Erie and in the Ohio waters and Pennsylvania.

And you do not have desalinisation equipment in our water filtration plants along the south shore or the like. There is a possibility of having Brians which is a concentrated solution of salt. And if that is the case there there is a leakage O'Brian it me it increases the salinity or the salt content of the water temperature which is going to affect the aquatic life. But there again it's a very short term effect because as the circulation takes place it will mix up the water because there is a mixing taking place. Well that's one of my major concerns in fact this study is really and it's an environmental study focusing completely on environmental concerns. My major concern is is whether the drinking water will be affected. And as we've been able to determine at this point even under the most worst case conditions the worst scenarios in terms of

accidents that there would be little if any danger to the drinking water. I I don't think there's any problem or any worry. I personally have been working out of pork over the last 12 years. And I think it's generally accepted that in the last 10 years the quality of the water in Lake Erie has improved. We. We don't feel that there's any problem as a matter of fact when you're out there working with this rig or one similar to it we have suction lines that just go over the side of the vessel. Pick up fresh water out of the lake a little bit of chlorine in it and use it in our domestic systems and drink it back in the building right behind you there's a water cooler in here if we were in operation. You get nice cool water directly out of here. Certainly if our water can if you can drink or water or people are frightened of drinking at work that's going to severely limit our economic potential. The one

thing that we probably have going for us or the major thing we have going for us and the many planners believe will eventually overcome this the Sun Belt and move into the Sun Belt. And the fact that they don't have a good water supply. We do. It's one of our major resources and we have to protect it at all costs. But besides that of course anything that will severely detract from those amenities that make our area livable. Clearly it would have negative economic consequence. There has been no pressure from any local state or federal agency interested in the development of gas drilling to make a decision in favor of it. There's been no pressure or even inquiry from gas developers to. Push that decision. I think it was a wise decision made several years ago to go through the process now when there are no pressures so that a decision

made is one that is made in a calm environment not pressured by a gas shortage or real bad economic situation. So I feel very comfortable that the decision that we will make that if anything will err on the side of issues like water quality and the protection of our water supply and other fear of some Americans is that in the drilling process some residue tax six will be released and cause environmental damage. Well there's been a pretty thorough examination of the process over a goodly number of years and nobody has ever come up with any indication that we're doing any sort of environmental hazard and there's no reason to believe that this is so. People continue to

work on the lake industries where people have recreationally to go off we're doing and. In fact it's amusing that I find myself talking to people on the stereo. And they find out for the first time that we're actually in the conversation. So the operation is really a very. Local technical operation that people are well. And yet it's been a phone that has a free situation for port upon. What if you should strike oil. Well first of all we have restricted our look at the eastern and central basin for precisely that reason. There is a probability of striking oil in the Western basin of Lake Erie and we will not even consider

drilling in that area reference program calls for shutting down any well when there is any indication of getting to any liquid hydrocarbons. There is no. Somebody I'll know all the impact statements and there's no there's no oil in that you know the eastern end of Lake Erie. I was just wondering if this would lead to drilling of oil at a later date. You know it should all be discovered. I would take an amendment of the environmental conservation law by the legislature to permit that to go ahead. Right now it would be illegal to drill for oil even before it was there. Now striking oil would only be able to cap it quickly if they did strike oil I believe they do have oil in some parts of the lake don't they that they know of. Right right. There has been some question that this is been a longstanding disagreement between the Lake Erie Basin Committee and the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation about the possibility of oil under New York waters. But if you check the formations you have to realize

the Canadian side is different than the American side. Many of the formations come out and you have an erosion edge that comes up at the center of like so the Canadians are not necessarily drilling through the same formations we are. And there are several of the formations that are potential oil bearing. Formations on land. Would Canada like to drill for oil in the lake. Oh yes. The ministry would very much like to drill for oil and gas in the lake because there is a lot of. Theory is that there is oil and gas. You have to challenge the international joint commission apparently to get this done or we don't think of it in terms of a challenge. The industry is challenging enough. We would like to persuade a joint commission.

The population in general that what we're doing is pretty safe environmental environmentally free that we've got a pretty good record. Since 1969 there's been tremendous advantage in advances in technology drilling offshore areas in the Atlantic Ocean and in places like that. The technology is in place to do any type of drilling in the lakes in fact the lake would be pretty small potatoes in terms of the type of drilling that elsewhere some western New Yorkers are under the impression that if we are drilling for gas in Lake Erie their gas bills would go down. Will then I would say is the biggest fallacy and largest myth of all because there are estimates anywhere from 100 percent to 400 percent more costly to drill and the like

and you have these hundreds of land based wells. That are kept. Here in western New York. There are much less expensive. So actually the way they would do is they would average the cost of the Lake Erie gas with a land base wells and your bills would go up. They would not go down. If this project does come to pass how many years are full of crap present sorry to say but my guess is our guess is we're talking at least five years off. We think it is extremely likely that you would see any any amount of grilling. There may be some exploratory experimental wells and there are other problems other than just the normal problems and one relates to the cost of drilling and in a way it is very expensive because of the kind of equipment you have to have and because of the legislation that's already been passed so I think you're talking at least five years and some people think it might be another decade before you really see any

amount of drilling like Kerry. When will a final decision be made in my home. Well we expect to publish the final environmental impact statement in early fall of this year. They'll be a review period of approximately 30 days. Following that 30 days I will publish a decision document which will articulate my decision on whether we have determined that the development of the gas resources can be done in an environmentally acceptable manner. In your estimation the drilling for natural gas here in Lake Erie on the American side is worth the risk. It is what the ricks for two reasons one. From the dangers that we see. It's not causing that much danger. And too in this area of depressed economy I had to bring that up. We need new jobs. We need to bring in more dollars from outside. And that is the only way we can bring that in and possibly to

boost the area's economy quite a bit. And it will affect Ohio state maximum you know because they have the largest area. But even for New York it's going to be several million millions of dollars coming in every year. First of all when people say things are worth the risk I think Benson who is risk. The drillers aren't risking anything. The people of the city of Buffalo are the people downstream. And those people aren't necessarily reaping the benefits. And certainly if you go to a family who has someone with cancer. And they and that could have been causally connected to this project and you say well you know tough luck you were one of that that small percentage of upwards risk that we figured that could be very efficacious to them to say that well we've increased our energy potential. The second thing that I want to answer to that is that they're they're basing that determination of

not much more risk on old science and pretty Love Canal science so to speak. They're not taking into account all of the more recent studies. The deal with low level chronic exposure.