Woman; Rape. Part 1

Say. Me say anything changing eating. Woman an in-depth exploration of the world of women with an evening and welcome to women. Tonight we're going to take a fresh look at an issue that's been around for a very long time. The issue is rape. My guest this evening is Susan Brownmiller Susan is a well-known journalist and author of against our will a four year study of rape. Susan welcome to the show. Nice to be here. Susan why did you spend four years on this book.

Sandy I did it because. I am a woman who changed her mind about rape. I feel that if I had had all the wrong stereotypes all the misunderstandings about what the act of rape was who was a rape victim who was a rapist. I figure there are a lot of people out there who also have misconceptions and I thought it was worth four years of my life to try to correct them. It's a spectacular book it really is. Thank you very much. I worked hard. I know you did. They're one of the popular sort of misconceptions about rape. There are some people who look at it as a sexual act. There are some people who look at it as a political act. Could you offer a sim explanation about that. Well I think we are. We have the Freudian legacy that tells us that rapists were sexual psychopaths. That they operated out of some terrible sexual frustration perhaps their mothers were cold or their wives were ungiving when the sociologists began to give us their statistics it became quite clear that rape had very little

to do with sex. Rape is basically. A. Act of an act of hostility against women it's a sheer act of physical aggression. And that's all it is the sex is really secondary. To very hard in the book about. And tell us about the reasons that women are raped by men. Because you go into that a little bit. Well I feel it's tied in with. The male concept of ego talking against our will of that. The male idiology of rape. Which I feel is rather central to the problem I feel that in this culture young men particularly adolescent men who form the raping population and I should also say that rapists are basically out of the working class and the lower classes because this is these other classes of violence these are the young men who learn to act out their hostility with a physical act a physical move aggression.

So naturally rapists come out of this group for the most part though they certainly are middle class and upper class rapists. What they're doing is taking out their rage against society against the most convenient nearest object the woman's body. And of course they're also taking out their hostility against women against a woman's body whoever she is. That's what the Act is all about. And of course it's something I have very little sympathy for. And I feel that the culture can eliminate it. You say that rape is to women what lynching was to blacks. You know I worked at that analogy in my book because I have as you know because you've read it about 60 odd pages on interracial rape which I feel is a very very critical part. Of the rape situation in this country. I was making the point that. Men. Rape women for the same reasons that traditionally blacks in this country were lynched by whites. And the reasons are because a woman or a black was uppity because a woman or a black. Wanted. To move outside of what

other people felt that person should be restricted to the role that person should be restricted to. A woman or a black could be lynched for a reason no other than being in the wrong part of town. At the wrong time of the night. A woman or a black could be. Raped or lynched for a simply getting out of hand and wanting to be more than the group had decided that person should be. Yeah I think it's a very profound comparison. You're very critical of the. Liberal thinkers and their attitudes toward rape. Yes I am I must say that my book. Comes out hard against liberals that the book I think is a very horrid book. Yup I didn't mean it to go down easy for anybody and I felt I was writing it for a liberal audience and yet it was liberals who needed to be most educated about rape because I think that as on one hand we have the Floridian tradition telling us that rape had nothing to do with male female relations or violence. No no it was simply these poor men and their sexual

frustrations. The liberals told us that there was no such thing as rape that rape was quite often a woman who charge she was raped a woman who said she was raped rape was a frame up. That's a liberal can and that's the defense lawyer mentality. Yes and I feel that has to be challenged by feminists. You spend quite a bit of time in the book talking about Albert DeSalvo. And if most people don't remember he was the Boston Strangler. Oh yes and how that he really defied. The M.O. was absolutely broke all the stereotypes and it's a pleasure to look into his life and see what lessons can be learned there. Where to begin on Albert DeSalvo. Well first of all. We have. Ha we can begin with the fact that the newspapers did not pay any attention to these murders and strangulations in Boston until. He happened to. To rape and murder his first young victim there were about four older women who

were raped and murdered. And that did not meet with any press attention and then the fifth one was a young woman. And then the press got interested because that fit into the press stereotypes that when it happens to someone young and beautiful and beautiful it's such a horrible crime if it happens to someone old who's going to be interested out there. Another part of the DeSalvo story which fascinates me is how of course all those women left him in the door. Most of the women he stalked lived in a in the working class neighborhoods in Boston in the suburbs. And. If you know if you've ever lived in a neighborhood like that there's always something in the house that needs fixing and the janitor certainly hasn't come in and the landlord hasn't sent the maintenance man. And there was DeSalvo walking in saying he was the handyman and of course they all had something that needed fixing. So they let him in and that was the prime way he got I knew a man who met his elbow once after he was in prison and she said that he was the most innocuous harmless

looking person she had ever seen. Yes well he had great straight than his thumbs. He had been a boxer in the Army he had had. A A child molestation charge against him while he was in the United States Army that case was dropped because the child's mother decided not to prosecute because she thought it would be too traumatic for her child. So very early on into salvos career perhaps it could have been nipped in the bud however. That charge was dropped later when he hung around Cambridge in Boston and started his first run of offenses. They called him the measuring mat of agreement because he would. Well he did minor acts that certainly fell short of rape. When he was finally arrested the police put him down for breaking and entering and that's what he was charged and convicted for not any kind of sexual assault. So that when the stranglings began that were clearly sexual and the police in Boston went through their files of known sex offenders his name was not on the list

because he was down simply for breaking and entering. And that's the basic reason that took so long to catch Albert de Silva. There's another interesting thing his jury was all male. When I was there. Yes. Because in the state of Massachusetts there is still a law and it's still on the books today in 1975. Absolutely I checked a few months ago I couldn't believe it myself. That. In any kind of jury case where the evidence is sexual This can go from obscenity to late to late murder. The judge has a right to refuse to allow women to sit on the jury because the evidence that they might hear would be embarrassing to them. And of course we know that rape is a subject of great interest to women since rape happens to us. And if there's ever a group of people that should be on jury cases hearing hearing about rape it is women. I think. There was another statement in the book who said it's a rare rapist who intends to kill me I know we've just been talking about Logan you know to be who is the exception. Right. Yeah and you broke every stereotype he was supposed to have had a According to

the psychiatrist he should have had a domineering mother. Her daddy had a domineering father he broke the stereotype in that way too. But it's true I did it by a very careful study using the best FBI and sociological statistics on rape and rape murder. And you cannot say that any more than 2 percent. Of. All. Murders. Are connected with sex and are rape murders just 2 percent. And of course we know or I will tell you and I'm sure you will agree that it is every woman's fear. During a rape pact. That she will be murdered because women perceive what is happening to them. As death. However the reality is that right this do not intend to kill do not want to kill. And I think that's significant because I think more women should resist because I think part of the. It's never been proven that resistance will move an assailant to kill

another. All that we had is not what we see here. No of course you will hear a police report and say the woman was found badly mutilated a hundred different knife wounds and this happened because she resisted. It's absolutely not true women who resist can get away. OK but you're not advocating resistance are you. I do advocate resistance. Certainly I do. I think you have to size up the situation and see how it goes you have to fit well. My feeling is that the first line of defense is recognize the warning signs early on such early warning signs such as well. I've heard so many stories from women who have been raped. And they start out with. They came to my house. And I asked for a glass of water I gave him the glass of water. He asked for a second glass of water I gave him the second glass of water he asked for a third glass of water Well I think if he had asked for the third glass of water I would have been getting a little suspicious that he wanted something and it wasn't water. Maybe with dehydrated. Well there are times I've heard of him when I was at this mall

and I've heard stories. Of lovely young women who say I got into the car I had to get from there to there and there was this cute young guy Scotty and he seemed to be going in my direction. He offered me a marijuana joy. Now you can interpret that is wonderful soul friendship among young people you can say aha something's going on here and I really know who this person is and what's he giving me this for. And what does it all mean. Those are what I mean the early warning signs that young women in situations with men they don't know or men that they do know have to become very very cautious about very alert to. And I'm not saying by any way stretch of the imagination that women bring rape upon themselves. That's certainly is a myth that we can dispense with right here. Women do not bring rape upon themselves. However I do think. That the first line of defense is to be aware of situations that can lead to something more than you're prepared to have happen.

Yeah. OK one piece of advice that you hear very frequently is to endure and then take care of it in the courts later. Now how sound advice is that I mean I know you're for a certain amount of resistance. Well it's tricky because. On one level I feel that many situations can be avoided. And that women must learn. To overcome their psychologic fear of defeat. So if I were in a situation now it depends I'm not in a situation where someone has a knife or with a gun and I had a situation where there is more than one potential assailant. Is that a one to one situation I feel pretty confident in a one to one situation that I could get out of it. There comes a time of course obviously when you might possibly be vanquished and defeated. And. Well. Survive didn't get to that police station as soon as possible as soon as it's over.

It just seems to me we're getting a lot of bad advice from a lot of different directions and that there's no one solution for every situation. There is no one solution and we are getting a lot of bad advice because as soon as the women's movement began to politicize rape which we did in 1971 and then it became. A national issue. I'm going to be very cynical and say that a lot of people got into the rape back. And. There have been a couple of books that have been published by men. That were done I feel in the real old rip off fashion of Aha there's an issue here and I'm going to make some money at it. And this one particular book whose name I will not mention and the author's name I can't even pronounce. Who has suggested just appalling things to women and absolutely double messages like vomit in his face or unbutton your blouse one or the other. I'm amazed that books like that get published. But his book did. And. He said in the book that men really don't have a physical advantage they have a

psychological that advantage is that well they have a little physical advantage too. Unfortunately. Statistics will show that men are indeed a bit taller they are indeed a bit heavier. However I think that's an advantage that women can overcome. The main advantages that rapists have is one first of all at least 40 to 50 percent of the time they travel in groups. I mean it's not just one rapist and one victim it's two guys or three or four as many as seven. That is a real advantage. And that's a physical advantage that cannot be underestimated. I mean the sheer terror of being surrounded by assailants would terrorize most anybody I think male or female. But in addition to that. The psychological advantage men have over women is that because of the sexual dynamics in this country men are supposed to aggress against women physically in the name of their masculinity and women are supposed to retreat passively in the name of

our femininity. And this is more than a game that's played out between men and women and it is a real psychological hold on the mind. And. If you listen to stories of. From convicted rapist I mean where they really got in they got the goods on these guys are in prison and it's a rare rapist by the way who gets to prison. But. If you read what they have to say they'll say things like Wow I thought she was asking for it how did I know you read the trial record you see he broke her jaw but he was operating under the assumption that indeed she wanted this and for her part I think she was scared stiff I think she was terrorized into immobility. Because I have heard story after story by women. Who tell me. He just came toward me and all I could think of was I'm going to have my last trip and I haven't even paid for it I just had a charge. And all I said was. Don't rip my stockings. But they were totally immobilized in terms of getting out of that situation and moving when perhaps they could have. If they if they hadn't had that

psychological burden. Of. Women don't respond women don't aggress against women. Tried to wheedle out of a situation they don't confront in turn. And they don't. Get the hell out of there. It always interested me that rape with the only crime of violence in which women were expected or even required to fight back by the law. Right. Absolutely. It was. It was fascinating to me too when I did my comparative studies of. Murder rape assault and robbery. And I discovered that. The profile of the rapist and the act of rape falls midway between the profile of the armed robber and the profile of. The assault of the offender. Rape is right in between and it borrows characteristics from the other two offenses. So we know that in a case of robbery a victim is never required in court

to show that he or she resisted the robber. You know somebody comes over to you and says I want your wallet. You just give them the wallet. And that's perfectly fine in a court of law and nobody thinks you should show a certain amount of resistance. And in the same case with assault you're not expected to resist in order to prove that somebody else assaulted you. However in a rape case you are required to show a certain amount of resistance. Susan how do you make the connection between street harassment and rape. In your head. I know there are lots of other people who make that kind Well today it's all one continuum it starts with street harassment and it ends up with rape or of course at the end of the line rape murder. And for me the connection is that all women whether or not we have ever suffered any physical sexual aggression against our bodies are quite aware of the threat out there. We know that rape happens to women. It rarely happens to men. We know that it's men who rape women and we also know that when a man says something to us on the street that is

slightly hostile mildly sexual. That is a threat and it is a threat against our physical integrity he's saying something to me when he says something to me on the street he's letting me know that he can do something to me. And I find it frightening to terrorizing because I know what it is he can do. What about the recent murders of rapists by their victims how do you feel about that. They've made me philosophical. And my answer may not. Be appreciated by the most militant heaven as a ha I may find myself in the position of not being the most feminist I know on this issue but I have to say that I feel that. The punishment for an informer should not be to cut off or informers ear and the punishment for rape this cannot be castration. I also have to say that if we believe in law and order and think that rape this should be punished by our criminal justice system.

We cant go around saying that women have a right to. Murder their rapists after the act. I certainly believe that killing. During an act in the name of self-defense is justified. It is absolutely justifiable homicide in the law believes that too. But I have been rather distressed. That in certain circles. People are rallying. To the defense of women who have chosen to use the method of the gun. To get even with their rapist. After the fact I think that will it will lead to more lawlessness in our society. And my concern is to get rapists into prison where they belong. Let me read you a quote from the book. That's your reaction to it. The most bitter irony of rape has been historic masculine fear of false accusation. Yes starting from the Bible. And working up. My book as you know is historical. And starts before the Bible and goes on to the present day.

And I noticed this this thread running through literature that I examined. And I called it the myth of Potiphar's wife because in the Bible the major rape parable is not a story of a woman who was raped in. And what happens to her but it's the story of Joseph the Israel life who was falsely accused by Potiphar's wife and who wanted to if she wanted to sleep with him he said no because he was so virtuous and after all her husband was his master and she in rage and in vengeance told her husband the Hebrew mocked me. Joseph is a rapist. And of course Joseph was thrown into the dungeon. And but his fortunes rose shortly thereafter cacti became quite the prison leader. Perforated the Pharoah's dreams correctly and everything worked out well for him. But it did Mei's me that this was the Bible's major a parable not the story of what happens to a woman who was really raped but the story of what happens to a man when a vengeful

lyings female. Cries rape. And of course that that that. Parable of Potiphar's wife. Which by the way is and is a staple in all ancient cultures and is a staple in modern cultures today as kind of a. Curiously affected our present day understanding of the crime because there were people today including the famous brilliant. Although eccentric. Psychologist Elaine Deutsch who have written and who will tell you. That. Rape is very often simply no more than an hysterical charge by an hysterical you know. Well what actual percentage of the accusations are full. Well this is sort of interesting because if you go by the FBI statistics which are collected from the police departments all over the nation you'll find that the false report figure 4 rapes or the rapes that the police say

are unfounded is as high as 15 percent although it was as high as 20 percent. About eight years ago. However in New York City when they instituted a sex crimes analysis squad and had women in charge of the investigatory unit. They found that only two percent of all rape reports were false. And two percent is precisely the same statistic. That is absolutely the accepted statistic for other felonies in other words 2 percent of all murder charges turn out to be false two percent of all robbery charges turn out to be false. And when women were put in charge of the Sex Crimes Unit in New York lo and behold only 2 percent of the rape charges turned out to be false. So it's a question of women believing women and men perhaps not believing the word of women their own cultures where they they don't even have a word for rape right. And where rape does not exist is not true. Well Margaret Mead found only that yes.

Margaret Mead found the ARA fish and I love Margaret Mead because she's one of the few anthropologists who ever bothered to ask that question of any culture she studied chio wherever she went. When she studied the Plains Indians when she studied them under them or when she studied the Arab passion she always asked you know was there rape in that culture. And she found that the Arab did not rape did not understand the concept. And that's because she felt sex was so fraught for the Arab ish that they wouldn't mess around I mean they understood that this was something very difficult and very very serious and should never be done lightly. And also they were very poor people had a great struggle for survival. So a lot of their effort went into really just getting the food. To keep themselves together. However we're about a hundred miles or so. From her cache where the river dwelling more who were a very warlike people who took great pride in their masculinity and rape was rampant among them under the more she discovered. Yes. So

it was clearly tied in with their image of themselves. Who were the rape victims in this country. Mostly. Well not surprisingly they kind of match. The rapists most rape victims are young. Teenage girls. From the lower part of the economic spectrum. At least 50 percent of them nationally are black. They're young women that. Probably people would say our little toughies. Maybe even for Miss us. I mean that's how they've been characterized. But they are victims simply because they are young teenage girls who come from this background where the young men around them are violence prone. And they are these young women are the least able to take care of themselves. I wonder if it isn't equally dangerous to try to characterize the victim as as as it as we

saw with Albert to sell it was the rapist. Well we certainly can't characterize the victim in terms of. She was out haven't we been doing that a little bit. Have I been doing no no I said haven't we really saw it right. Oh sure. It was one of the one of the reasons I as I said earlier that I wrote the book I did a story several years ago for Esquire. On a rape case and I accepted all loving all the stuff they were telling me about the young victim that she was promiscuous and she was a gadabout she did this. She participated in this experience out of a sense of adventure. I feel very sorry for how I treated her in print. When I did that story. Susan a few minutes ago you said you were sure we have one minute. You were sure you could take care of her rapist on a one on one situation. I think so. Well what would you do. First of all as soon as I saw a warning sign I'd get out as fast as possible I'd scream I'd yell out kick I'd hit I do everything and I kicked were her.

Susan we just had a time. I thank you very much for being here. Thank you for watching. Good night. Production funding provided by a public television station is the Ford Foundation. The Corporation for Public Broadcasting.