Woman; 444; Alternatives to Estrogen

Why why. Good evening and welcome to women. Tonight our topic is alternatives to estrogen.

With me is Gideon seaman Gideon is a psychiatrist in private practice. He is director of psychopharmacology and director of Graduate Medical Education at Creedmore Psychiatric Center in New York City. Also with me is Barber seaman Barber is the author of the doctor's case against the pill and the widely read free and female barber was an advanced science writing fellow at Columbia University. Gideon and Barbara seaman are co authors of a new book titled Women and the crisis in sex hormones. Welcome to both of you. Barbara you've had a very long involvement with this question of estrogen. How did it begin. Came out I've always considered myself a patient at the point in the early 60s I was a columnist editor at Brides magazine and other women. And there was something that didn't sit right. There were all these glowing reports from Dr. Greg

Mocker and Dr Rock about how wonderful it was for you and in the mean time I kept interviewing women and hearing horror stories. Men who were on the pill. Yes. And by 1962 when it had been available for about two years I had collected about 100 cases for example of women whose periods just never came back. When they stopped in the meantime Dr Rogge who was one of the inventors of the pill was running around saying that the pill made you still prefer that what you just hoped you had to be really really careful because you can see by what we heard about multiple births after people stopping the pill. Yeah actually the multiple births come not from stopping the pill but from these very dangerous fertility drugs that they have to give many pill users in order to start their periods going again because the pill completely knocks out your pituitary ovarian hypothyroid and in a majority of women it comes back naturally. But in a very worrisome minority it just doesn't come back without further

dangerous treatments. So by the early 60s I knew that a lot of things were being covered up. Oh another claim was that it would give you a beautiful complection. They had all these nurses who were getting. Terrible acne and these patchy discolorations I mean it got so that I could tell very often from this state of enormous skin that she was on the panel. Then there was the bloating the depressions which Gideon as a psychiatrist picked at very early back as far as 1964 I began seeing women coming to me depressed seriously depressed and when I started taking your history of what had gone on I found that many of them were on birth control pills and cured an awful lot of depression simply by getting the woman to stop the pill use some other method of birth control. And I'm afraid that a lot of other psychiatry just were not aware of it and some are still not and they go on treating these women when they say the answer is very simple stop

the pill which causes depressions as a matter of fact one of the things that. Don't show up in the statistics about the dangers of birth control pills is that probably the greatest mortality the greatest number of deaths is not from the heart attack or the blood clots but probably from suicide as a result of depression. You know that's something that's not something I've heard before. No there you see when a woman commits suicide they don't usually list it as a pill related death. If she's had a stroke or a heart attack now this being recognized it may be really listed as a pill related death but suicide very rarely would be. And this is one of the consequences of depression. Well I think we should make clear at this point that the birth control pill is only one use of estrogen right. In 1969 you wrote a book called the doctor's case against the pill which was a very controversial book. I mean there are a lot of people who are very angry at you for saying some of the things that you said in the book and most of them

have since apologized. In fact I can't tell you how the people said to me in the last few years starting about 1975 the FDA began to acknowledge the side effects that I had written about in the book The Heart attacks the depressions the liver tumors and the fatal either other forms of fatal liver disease the diabetes or a serious depletions in vitamins. About 30 other side effects later tonight the liver thing. Did you mention it yes at all these were things that I had written about in the and the overall things for the last year or so that the last few years the FDA has finally officially acknowledged them. And what do you say about get out others and then go have a nice to me and said You know I used to think you were not and I want to tell you an apology for having said you were what you said about what I was doing all these women. Plus I was interviewing the really trustworthy basic scientists not the population control as they were trying to

cover up nor the lazy doctors I mean that's another factor because fitting a diet properly and coaching a one it really takes a couple of hours. You have to have several visits. You have to let her participate in which model of diet that the doctor was just as was the pill. If it's fitted properly and used properly. But it said the busy doctor just write a pill prescription and put it across and getting what is that new study about the Fremen barrels the bill you know I think it's long been known that the diaphragm conscientiously improperly used is a very effective method of birth control. The only problem was that there weren't good studies to back this up but there was one just recently published. By Mary Lane and some of her other coworkers where they did a large scale study of women using the diaphragm the diaphragm properly fitted and when they when they analyzed the results among those women

who had used it conscientiously it was a 99 percent effective method which compared to the pill which is about ninety nine and a half percent effective and puts it in exactly the same ballpark really worked out all the side of. I would go even further than that and say that it may turn out that the diaphragm is actually more reliable than the pill because one of the fascinating things about the pill that I started picking up very early was I would interview very conscientious women. In fact compulsive women who would say I took the pill every single night I never skipped a pill but I still got pregnant. Then in 1970 in the big fertility study it showed out that the chair that the actual pregnancy rate in the pill was much higher than women have been taught it six percent in the first year of use. In other words six out of every hundred users to get pregnant. And of course the doctor said oh well the women are being careless they're lying when they say an aunt never skipped any pills. But just in the past couple of years it's been clarified that the pill

interacts with various other common drugs in such a way that very often it neg AIDS the concept of the fact that what are the other common drugs to hit out one word definitely is a is a drug called a phantom a biopic is not a widely used one but it interferes not only with the pill but with other kinds of other drugs that a person can. And so it's we're only beginning to learn about drug interactions and even food drug interactions. There's a lot of suggestive evidence about condom tranquilizers and sleeping pills and other drugs that a lot of pill users use one of the things that I really liked about the book is that it's positive and it's not as frightening as a lot of the literature we've been reading about estrogen to date. But they were talking about a new book Women and write about your new book right. And also the fact that it offers alternatives. And let's talk about alternatives to the pill because I think people really think you know they're going to have to go back to very primitive type met well as a matter of fact the so called primitive

methods the birth rate in the United States until the past few years when it's gone down quite dramatically was lowest in the 1930s during the Depression. And at that time the the main birth control methods that were available were condom and diaphragm and they worked very well because people couldn't afford to have children and they still work very well. And the so-called old fashioned methods were the barrier methods condom diaphragm and foam which is a somewhat newer method highly effective and without any dangers that anybody knows about the benefit from that is this a benefit of just the foam that it sometimes helps in certain kinds of infections it's also useful to D s daughters but how so. Some of the ingredients in foam and also some of the jellies and creams that are used with diaphragm actually help with the abnormalities in the vagina that are found in the deal and young to help heal it. They help heal it.

The other thing that I think is terribly important is that according to. CDC the Center for Disease Control gonorrhea is the number one communicable disease problem after the common cold and one of the things that is terribly important is that the pill for example will increase a woman's chance of contracting gonorrhea if she has sexual relations with a man who has got a rare whereas if a diet if the foam is you or if condom it reduces the possibility of the transmission is one of the things that isn't widely known but has been demonstrated in quite a number of studies is that in addition to being good contraceptives the foam actually kills a lot of the the germs that are involved in a number of an aerial diseases. So and also possibly the lates finding it that it helps prevent the spread of her piece infections which may be the cause of cervical cancer.

So it's very nice to know that these barrier methods actually promote Bajan or how with the cervical cap the cervical cap is a very old method. It goes back to when the vows of years that used to be molded out of opium by women in ancient cymotrichous and practically every culture had its version of the cervical cap. Some made it out of beeswax but it was like a thimble a large divider that would fit over the cervix It's like a large cymbal fits over the cervix. It's a it's been used in Europe for many years but not here though. It's not even available in the United States now nobody is manufacturing it in the United States there are a few doctors who import them from Europe. It's a very simple method. It's put all over the cervix and it can remain for a day or two or even for the whole month until the woman gets her period when she can take it off during her period and then put it back on for the next month. It doesn't require the use of creams or jellies the where the diaphragm does although

some people do combine it with and it seems to be a highly effective method. How do you get one if you want one. Well in the women's health bill that we're trying to revive it now the National Women's Health Network is we're going to be working with a Population Council and testing out various cervical caps at women's health centers and they come in all kinds of materials. And we don't know yet whether the loose side or the rubber of the polyethylene are going to be bad. What we hope to find out it'll probably turn out that some women prefer one title something or another but the cat is amazingly versatile that's what's so wonderful you can use it like a diaphragm taking it in and out. Or you can keep it all month or what a lot of the women that I interviewed did was sort of compromised in other words they would take it out at least a couple of times a week. When they took a bath you know just to make sure that no unpleasant Sigrid used to value do you go as far as to recommend these alternatives

in the book or we're us and we've had to use them properly because that's a very important factor a lot of doctors for example prescribe the wrong size diaphragm never brought a coach in a woman and had to use it. And that if she fails they blame her. But it's really the doctor's failure to have I think a lot of people feel that there aren't alternatives the pill I mean really that are effective and so on but you know I'm I'm glad to hear that you really feel that some of these old methods are. Bill that's actually available that's being used in Australia that's been very hushed up in this country. A male pill. Yes it's a combination of additives and estrogens with a much higher percentage of estrogens and in this country it's used for what's called the mailmen of cause and for osteoporosis in older men there are about 12 different brands it's available in every drugstore. And if doctors wanted to pursue circumscribing it is the male pill they could. And in Australia they are at it cause the sperm suppression or other side effects. Yeah but no worse than the female I think could really help with the

problem that I don't think anybody should be taking the risks. Men or women. I don't think it's necessary to take the kind of serious risks to health. For birth control since there are methods available that. Are effective and the other use of estrogen that's most common as is the use of estrogen replacement therapy for men opposed to women. Could I mention one thing before we move on which is that the condom in the United States is the largest most copious and most uncomfortable in the world and that in many other countries where the condoms are headed to South Side such as Japan and the Scandinavian countries they're much more popular. And I think that a simple improvement in our condom design. Could. Make this method there much thinner into the one third the room American car. But they're apparently just as big a bill. A lot of good all that you know is usual. Standards make very little sense. But what will get people to write letters. They would have been archived.

They won't allow See the archives available now that imitate the Japanese style that is their colorful and I have these fancy shapes and all that. But there is still much too thick. So they tend to cut down the man on the moon. But then on demand of course they're not such a thing. They don't I mean the Japanese market. OK that's it. It would seem to me that alternatives for menopausal women who are on estrogen a little trickier. In fact it they're a little more mysterious I think to everybody when what can you do what you know in the first place. The estrogens used for men a Posner claim to have all kinds of benefits including keeping the woman young forever and. Actually it's only been proved to help with two of the side effects of men applause. One is the hot flashes it really works for that and the other is for the

gentle drying that occurs. For all of the other things. There is no proof whatsoever that they work so that we're really dealing with only two side effects in the first place. The majority of women menopausal women don't get. Hot Flashes. It's only a small percentage. Seems like it when you hear that most women who talk about it say you know they have it's less than half of women getting to any significant extent and only a small percentage get it to the serious extent where it really bothers them. And the point we're making in the book when we go into it in some detail is the alternatives and the alternatives have to do with various healthful things such as proper diet. Vitamins. And something that. Seems to work very well for hot flashes and in many women is gin saying. Now you have to probably explain which instinct in saying is an ancient drug that's been used by the Chinese and Koreans for

about four five thousand years. And. Has been somehow promoted in the United States as an aphrodisiac which it is not. But. It works very well for hot flashes. And. Has No no serious side effects whatsoever. But. We recommend in the book Women in the crisis and sex hormones a variety of vitamins including vitamin E. And B complex and C.. Now what does vitamin E do fairly. Well. The. Hot flashes for example are not because of the estrogen lack. The estrogen level does go down to men a pause but what happens that causes the hot flashes is that there are certain hormones produced by the pituitary gland. Which stimulate the ovaries to produce. Estrogen. These are called again that a trial opens. And what happens

is that as the ovaries start producing less estrogen the pituitary starts sending more and more of the going out of trope and the messengers trying to induce the ovaries to produce more estrogen and what happens is that these levels get very high and these are the things that are most related to the hot flashes. Well now vitamin E affects the pituitary gland so that one's down to it. And. And. Reduces the production of the United drop ins and as a result. Of lessons or eliminates the hot flash was it possible for a woman who is having this problem and who does not want to take estrogen to go to a store by satellite even in China we have found that about 80 to 90 percent of women can control even fairly severe hot flashes 80 90 percent of the women that you've talked to who've tried these regimens there are more and more taxes they're starting to try them says the terrible new Sabbat acid is causing and MHL cancer and quite possibly being sassy and with breast cancer on the list now.

And there are many well controlled studies dating back to the 30s but they were forgotten in the hard sell for estrogens. You have to remember that the most popular form of estrogen used in the United States is made from mare's urine which is a very cheap raw material. Nobody else wants mirrors here and so it is an extremely high profit item as one of the highest profit drugs made. And this has left the companies who make it with a fortune to pour into advertising and pushing it. And so in all this pushing. These very well controlled studies dating back to 1937 showing that vitamin E is very effective in curbing hot flashes and 50 to 75 percent of women were forgotten. But. With a new fear many doctors are going back there and looking at the old studies. And sure enough they're very well done studies. They don't work for everybody. Some women get no benefits from the A. Others get only moderate

relief but about heavier combined. You know you can you can either start with the whole. Thing or you can start with just water. I've started patients just on the either got relief so didn't need the drone's thing the others were the E-Loan didn't work adding the Jones thing did the trick and the big X and C is very important and. Still is a. Factor related to seek all the BIOS lavender as is found in the in the whites and the puppy parts of citrus fruits. And that has this specific striking effect on the capillaries. And again. There's more and more research being compiled that for some women who have severe hot flashes adding a bit of the bioflavonoids which strengthens their capillaries. It's very helpful in reducing them. And what we explain in the book is that. We believe in Roger Williams theory of biochemical individuality he's the great old scientist of American Nutrition. And he says that no two people absorb or

metabolize. Nutrients In exactly the same way. And what one has to do is inform oneself about nutrition and. Then. Read a little bit within safe levels we don't advocate mega vitamins or mega doses at all. We found that moderate supplements. What are called therapeutic levels. Can cure or greatly reduce hot flashes and most women and you know you have to design a program for yourself that we would like to have. We give the various dosages to start with and how to move one of the problems with that is that we don't have access to you know the kinds of information I know you're going to say it's in the book. But I mean in general you can't go to a physician and say look I think I need this and I might need this and you know I want to I want to find out I mean it just doesn't happen. Most physicians know relatively little about nutrition. Until recent years the nutrition as a course was not taught in many medical schools but on it still do is and still is not. There's a little bit of nutrition thrown in the

biochemistry course and a little bit in other courses but physicians for the most part are just not educated about this kind of thing and the other thing is that most physicians unfortunately are. Oriented toward treatment of disease rather than. A promotion of health. And again nutrition promotes health more than it cures disease. What we had in the beginning of the book that. If physicians are paid for keeping their patients well and they're not paid when the patients got sick. They would include a lot more nutrition in the medical school curriculums than well I mean the important thing is that there are alternatives for men and women. One other thing that we want to mention is the osteoporosis write it down I was just going to bring that up because we only have about three minutes left and I want to be sure to talk about one of the problems and post menopausal women is that they develop osteoporosis which is the sort of the bones become less dense than the bone and more fragile on this is one of the things that can lead to. Broken bones that elderly women often get what

causes it. Do you know what the cause is not entirely clear but the it's part of the aging process but. A good nutrition. Can. If not entirely prevented reduce the incidence of it. And this involves more calcium in the. Vitamin D where the person is not getting enough vitamin D or sunlight. And perhaps reducing the amount of phosphorus in the diet which includes perhaps eating less meat. And. Perhaps eating more dairy products. Yeah we explained this in the book and also exercise is terribly important in the United States that women who've been taking Premarin you know the upper middle class women are getting more and more asking of paralysis. The more poor women who have to keep working and keep exercising more have not been getting more ass you know process and furthermore black women whose diet is naturally higher and in kept in calcium and lower in phosphorus foods like collard greens are very high in calcium and lower

Bosphorus have very little osteoporosis. Before we close I just was there we hadn't said anything about TS and a third of our book about the late ok is also when he's done a two program Sunday so you know we can talk about mostly other things on this program but I do want to say that. We have a lot of very important up to date information for DSTO So I hope that they'll take a look at photographs of what is the absolute latest information on the pill. Today as in what respect. Well I mean we're constantly there's new stuff. I mean first I mean we seem to be getting the bad news gradually. It was all in my 69 Pill Book I mean I there's no one what is recognized by the FDA now as Oh all right just ahead it worked or at the scene right when it's just talk from the head. OK. Hair loss strokes. Retinal vein thrombosis skin disturbances including some that leave permanent discolorations. Bleeding gums and other tooth rather all FDA record they will recognize now right

in the chest. We've got our pulmonary embolisms and our heart attacks which are often fatal. Moving down to the middle regions we have to go out rumors live liver tumors which are on in fatal gallbladder disease and then moving on down there. Oh when I mention the head I think that depression I guess you call that in the head. And then there are the all too common blood clots that originate in the feet and legs and that very often leave the user's group permanently crippled although they may not kill them unless they move to the lungs and become a pulmonary embolism. I want to say that this figure is that the latest FBI figures on the number of failures is hospitalized each year. Have gone way way up. They now admit that between 1 in 100 and one in 300 pill users are hospitalized until you have a birth control pill right away that I DON'T LIKE I DOn't CARE WHAT ARE THOSE. OK the. They haven't collected that is clearly there so they can live. OK the estrogens in the estrogen replacement therapy and the estrogen in the pills are very

very common and the side effects that you find in water are likely to be found in the other now that hasn't been demonstrated for every side effect but that's the trend if it's found for one than in the lunar while it's going to have that and the other and that's. And this also includes to us that that's also an estrogen product so that even the the danger of. The answer in the offspring of women who have that is a danger that that's potentially there for women who are on the pill get pregnant and don't know what and may continue to take the pill for a month or two before they find out they're pregnant. Type if you had to make one recommendation as a physician to your patients having to do with estrogen what would it be to get in. Stay away from it. I thank you both very much for being here and good luck with the book it's terrific. Thank you.

Thank you and good night. It was provided by unrestricted general program grants from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and a.