On the Line; On the Line Episode from 03/24/2000

Just reports I got on the Miami relatives who lost a key ruling this week to apply for political asylum for the boy say they will appeal all the way to the Supreme Court. A process that could take months leaving 6 year old Elyon in legal limbo and U.S. officials are having none of it. Justice Department officials sent a letter to the family last night asking the Miami relatives to agree to an expedited appeal of the case which could be heard in just a few weeks. At the family refuses officials say immigration officers will probably go ahead and return immediately to his father in Cuba which they have the authority to do. The case is headed to U.S. appellate court in Atlanta which legal experts say is unlikely to overturn this week's ruling against the family anyway. The family's lawyers could not be reached for comment this morning. Phillip Davis NPR News Miami. Republican. Managed to get there one point eight trillion dollar budget passed in the house. The vote which came early this morning was 211 to 207 approval came over the objections of Democrats who say the plan's tax cuts are too large. Well it does nothing for Social Security and Medicare. The 150 billion dollar

worth of tax cuts over five years or more than President Clinton wants the Republican budget also contains 29 billion dollars less than the president wants on domestic programs. In addition the plan contains an extra 1 billion dollars for defense. It will be hard to passed a measure in the Senate. The Senate Budget Committee Chairman Pete Domenici has yet to try to push a similar plan through his committee. Speaking in India today President Clinton praised that country's growing computer software industry. NPR's Vicky O'Hara has a report from Hyderabad. Speaking at a complex known as high tech city President Clinton talked about increasing economic and scientific contact between India and the U.S. and the bed. It fits to both countries. And he called on both nations to use high technology as a weapon and behalf of social justice. For me the true test of the information revolution is not just the size of the feast it creates but the number of people who can sit at the table to enjoy it.

Mr. Clinton said that high technology can't just be about higher profits. And he urged the use of scientific developments to help bring more people out of poverty so that they too can enjoy the fruits of the information age. Vicky O'Hara NPR News Hyderabad. On Wall Street the Dow Jones Industrial Average is down 64 and a half points to eleven thousand fifty five. Trading is active when the volume of one hundred thirty two million shares the Nasdaq composite index is up 52 points to forty nine ninety two. This is NPR News. Support for NPR comes from Tower Records presenting the King's College Choir of Cambridge in the festival of nine lessons and carols Tower Records dot com or 1 800 275 tower. This is WNYC Amay 20 New York and online at WNYC dot org it's 10 O 457 degrees sunny skies high today near 65. Good morning on your column. A survey of 40 former NYPD internal affairs investigators has found that none of them wanted to work in the anti-corruption unit and were happy to get away once their two year assignment was

over. Thomas were petto head of the Citizens Crime Commission says police culture is naturally resistant to officers investigating each other. The survey suggesting the NYPD hasn't met its goal of making the an attractive assignment Mayor Giuliani met with the interim school's chancellor Harold Levy last night for the first time ever the mayor and the Chancellor meeting for a little over an hour at Gracie Mansion. Once it was over neither would say the. I mean both would say the meeting was productive though Chancellor Levy said they discussed numerous issues concerning summer school. The chancellor the mayor been feuding over the best way to fill the shortage of 17000 teachers for the summer classes. New York State is launching a fight the bight campaign to help prevent you from getting the mosquito borne West Nile virus. WNYC is Marianne McCune reports state and city health officials are urging New Yorkers to take prevention into their own hands. They'll distribute information packets run television and radio spots and even give out how to kits for children who want to form bite fighter clubs to help clean up mosquito hotspots used tires are the most common breeding grounds. But officials recommend

cleaning out anything that collects pools of water from old tin cans and ceramic pots to clog the gutters bird baths and swimming pools. Queens was the epicenter of last year's outbreak. Sixty two people contracted the virus and seven died from it this year. Traces of the virus gene showed up in hibernating mosquitoes for WNYC. I'm Marianne McCune. Stock prices are mixed at this hour in sports the Knicks the nets Seton Hall and the Islanders all see action tonight. Fifty seven degrees and sunny getting up to 65. It's 10 0 6. This is on the line. I'm Brian Lehrer. New York City Controller in apparent 2000 and one mayoral hopeful Alan Hevesi as my first guest today a moderate Democrat from Queens Mr. Hennessy is usually fairly restrained in his criticism of Mayor Giuliani but he's been in the news this week for canceling a big welfare to work contract that the mayor had approved and leveling some of his

harshest criticism ever at the mayor. The controller saw the deal as cronyism and has even referred to them and referred it to the Manhattan DA's office for a criminal investigation the mayor says he'll sue to try to get the contract reinstated will get the controller side now get his take on the Doris mine case and perhaps more control and have a see welcome back down the line good morning thank you very much. What exactly was this contract and why do you reject it. Yeah the mayor submitted 17 what are called for a welfare to work contracts to my office for registration of 13 different vendors were selected to do this work. A couple of them had more than one contract totaling four hundred sixty nine million dollars. My objection to the use of contract and rejection of the largest of them and there's a legal difference between objection and rejection was based on the fact that first of all that the process used was a no bid contract process and that is not permitted. You're allowed to do no bid and negotiated acquisition process it's called in very limited circumstances none of which applied here

but two circumstances are essentially when you have only one or two vendors not not the case here or you have some kind of compelling need in the form of a deadline you'll lose federal funds and contracts expire. The mayor said there was a compelling need. It was false. The mayor said that 44 different contracts were expiring on September 30 of completely false just by the the language of the contract. The mayor said that hundreds of millions of dollars of federal funds would be lost. That was completely false. There was no loss of federal funds as a matter of fact that was acknowledged in writing by Joe Lhota the deputy mayor. Suzy what was the purpose of doing this noncompetitive process one is to hire some good agencies and some were among the 13. But the real reason was a kind of corruption of the process through favoritism and cronyism focusing particularly on one company called Maximus. Should I go on to describe the problem with Maximus. Go ahead. There are several problems one Maximus was to get two contracts worth one hundred four million dollars a quarter of the money.

Maximus said that it would sub contract with a firm called Opportunity America headed by a man named Richard Swartz who is the mayor's former welfare aide. In fact the mayor's press former press secretary Colleen Roche is now working for Maximus and there were several problems of the contract. One the sub contract arrangement with opportunity was not a sub contract they were full partners we have the partnership documents for 30 percent of the hundred four million dollars over three years. About 30 million dollars and renewable for a second hundred and four million dollars over a second three years. Secondly they were shown all kinds of favoritism. Months before the formal process began even there was no bit as a formality to the application process. The Human Resources Administration in writing has indicated its first conversations began on March the 2nd of 1999 many months before they had been in detailed conversation with Maximus telling them all about what was expected. To the point where Maximus with his enormous at that edge

had filed the proposal schematics for its office in New York the salaries of its employees. This is not permitted. It is favoritism and it's analogous to the Lockheed scandal that occurred in 1993 exactly the same thing where Lockheed was thrown out and prohibited from doing business with the city. Now let me stop you there of course. This is political We're not going to be able to resolve that here one way or the other but why did you get the DA's office involved. Well let me let me respond on a couple of things you'll notice what the mayor said had nothing to do with the specifics of are the issues that we rise with the mayor said if you're being political which is what he says to everybody to dismiss any substantive disagreements that he has. Number two we handed over our information to the district attorney and to the United States attorney and the three inspector generals in the federal government because they pay 75 percent of this money of the almost half a billion dollars. And the reason we did that is while we found in our administrative review a corruption of the process and did not

find criminality that doesn't mean it isn't there. We're just not though I have subpoena power and I have investigators we had 30 days that there were review. So to make sure that there's nothing beyond corruption administrative corruption the corruption of the process we refer these to the district attorney failure to do that would have been irresponsible. And that's not political. It has not had to with politics I didn't send these contracts to the mayor. He sent them to me. I didn't violate the contracting rules and law. The mayor sent them to me. If if I had this information and hadn't acted on it and if I had the documentation about corruption of the process and didn't act on it you as a journalist in the culture of journalism would be asking why am I protecting the merits of being political. New York City. Will or Alan have AC is my guess we can take some phone calls for him at 2 1 2 2 6 7 W NYC 2 6 7 9 6 9 2 or send email to on the line at WNYC dot org. You even went so far as to call the mayor a liar this week and that's unusual for you

or your relations deteriorating. Well I I don't know how to characterize the relationships we have rejected. We have a register contract thousands of times there about 5000 a year. We have rejected contracts three hundred fifty times and prior you know prior years. My six years as controller and normally it's always been with cooperation with the agencies we tell them there's a problem that the vendor hasn't paid his taxes or has a felony account or some whatever it is and they correct it or they terminate the contract. Here we try to do the same thing very quietly and cooperatively and they refuse to answer us so we had to you know fail to register the contract we rejected them. So I don't know how you would characterize a relationship I was never the mayor's friend I was never his ally I was never the colleague but I committed myself that my office would not be used politically. We would call it straight and we would cooperate with the merit that there were some Democrats who were very critical of me that I didn't use the leverage of my office to humiliate the mayor. I'm not in the humiliation business. We have

obligations here there. A particular issue with these 17 contracts the particularly with Maximus the deal smells and I'm not going to be complicit in it and if the mayor wants to go to court he better get a judge to order this contract because I'm not going to do it. And I want to go before a judge to lay out the facts that as we found them on the Patrick Dorismond case you call the mayor's actions despicable and inhuman. Again tough stuff for you. Yeah well not tough stuff for me I've you know I had a fight with the mayor a few years ago when he wanted to sell the watershed. It took two years for me to win that fight. It was a terrible deal and I said so it was a dumb financially it was irresponsible right but I don't think I've ever called him inhuman at that time. No because he wasn't inhuman he was just wrong. In this case I believe it was in humans I tell you why. You bet. Young man is in the street. He is waiting for a taxi cab. He's not a criminal. He's not accused of a crime. He's confronted by undercover police officers. Something happens and he gets

shot to death. I am not making a judgment whether he it was an accident or not. What I am critical of is the mayor says and I'm not critical of the mayor the next day saying that we shouldn't rush to judgment don't you let your biases prejudge this. He was right but he violated his own admission the next day by doing something I think is just outrageous inhuman and that is he unsealed records which he cannot do it's illegal for him to do it under sealed records particularly of some incident of this young man who is now dead when he was 13 years old and try to create an impression spinning and exaggerating that this was a serial criminal. What's inhuman about it is number one it has no purpose. If that's the elements of a subsequent criminal investigation against the cop that you know of that should happen in the context of the investigation if this allegation was doing was just injuring the family now suffering the death of their innocent son. And I visited Mrs Dorismond the mother and the father and she said she was

so ashamed she couldn't go out into the streets and I had to explain that everybody knew the man I was trying to cover himself politically from accusations and he was spinning and he was exaggerating and creating a false impression she had nothing to be ashamed of. She had to grieve and be strong for her family. So what I thought the mayor did was terrible and so did everybody else in the city. Every commentator Republican front page of The Times of stories about Republicans critical of the mayor they don't want to be identified because they're afraid of him but they don't want to be identified. They still come forward and say we have no idea what he's doing this is this is crazy. And the extent of how unusual the criticism of the mayor has been this week can be seen in the New York Post today where their columnist and former editorial board chief John Podhoretz is similarly critical of the mayor. Yeah and his comments on Doris month today and William Bratton. Not that he's been such a close friend of the mayor in recent years but he really criticizes the police practices that he says set this you know set up the possibility of this kind of interaction.

Yeah I mean I think what's what's really extraordinary in a contentious city like New York is the near unanimity that the mayor really went beyond the pale here. But let me ask you then since since we're doing some politics about well I'm not doing politics you're asking about. All right. And I'm doing politics. OK. Hillary Clinton on this. She knocked the mayor this week for dividing the city and failing to lead as she put it. But where is her leadership. She didn't make any proposals on buy and bust or any other police policy on her own. She just criticized the mayor is that leadership. Well you know you're going to get me into to the kind of context and I don't want to mix the Senate context. I'm glad to comment but I don't want to mix the Senate contacts with this Dorismond incident that's what the mayor wants to do the mayor's response to any criticism is you're being political you're being political you're piling on. I mean even today Dov Hikind a very conservative Jewish leader was critical of the mayor and the mayor's response was that Dov Hikind was following the Al Sharpton script. These are diversions and they are not relevant to the point I'll be glad to

talk about Hillary Clinton. And I think she was right to join in the criticism of the mayor and in using very poor judgment. I thought he was inhuman it was worse than poor judgment. But this is about the mayor of the city of New York trashing a dead person and justifying it by saying you can't libel a dead person but he sure tried to do so. And the fact is I voted for the law the for the Family Court Act in 1902 as a member of the assembly. And if you're going to unseal sealed records the mayor is not allowed to do that. Only a judge is allowed to do that. And how did the mayor get those records in the first place. They're supposed to have been sealed and destroyed the fingerprints destroyed the photos destroyed by the police and the records sealed. So there's some very serious legal issues here so to divert attention about who said what about whom in a political context is something I would prefer to avoid at this stage. New York City Controller Alan. See my guest for a few more minutes let's get a few phone calls in Gregory on a cell phone you're on the line with controller had AC.

Thanks for taking my call. I don't question and I know that Maximus is also involved in a contract with the city and probably just state of New York to transfer hundreds of thousands of Medicaid recipients into Medicare and there are a lot of irregularities and actually was a cubit is on this contract as well. My question is are you also looking into this matter. Well no the jurisdiction for the Medicaid contracts which involved suburban counties is that of state comptroller Carl McCall he has already in writing indicated that he's very troubled by the administration of the Maximus contracts out in I think Nassau or Suffolk counties and they are not moving ahead because of some questions that are being raised. I'm focused obviously a city controller on the city contract. David in Brooklyn you're on the line with control of the sea. I mean to have it. I'm a member of D.C. 37 EMT the paramedics of the fire department right. We're concerned is that the fire department has been doing business actually have been doing this is let me clarify that has allowed private

hospital to contract out services to a company. Own owned by a particular gentleman who has made substantial kind of campaign contributions to the Giuliani administration. And basically what is happening is nonunion workers are being hired and replacing replacing you know non uniform but Union members of the city workforce. And it seems that only the chief lead a newspaper has been really just displaying that. And I just wonder what your family's ox is this another example of Mayor Giuliani's cronyism. Yeah well first of all let me observe that it's not illegal for the fire department to do this but as a matter of public policy I have a bias that if you have trained workforce that you have invested huge amounts of money in providing equipment and training they should be the priority. And remember that as a controller I am the enforcement officer of the prevailing wage laws. In our industries which ensures

that workers who do business with the city even if they're private vendors have to be fed pay the prevailing wage and I enforce in fact workers have been repaid seventeen million dollars in my six years who were cheated and underpaid by vendors doing business with the city. So I think the level of. I think you're on the right track and you're right. There is a public but this is a public policy issue. The fire department's action is not a legal it's just a question of both ideology and practicality. I think if you invest in your workforce they should be given the priority consideration. Thank you for your call David control have a say let's finish by going back to the question of welfare to work and on the policy level so many people have left the welfare rolls. Is it succeeding. Oh absolutely. And let me be very clear you know the mayor's responses have been not to deal with the issues I've raised but to call me names as he does with everybody and I guess I've called him names back. But he also has made allegations that I am for dependency and I'm trying to scuttle the welfare to work. And he knows that's false I support

welfare to work. We are the ones who set the performance standards I am for the weapon program of the some changes I would make. So this is not about the policy issue. This is about the process and a violation of the contract law in using a methodology that's being utilized illegally and the favoritism that was shown towards Maximus the mayor has been criticized for not starting a track. Program to see how former welfare recipients are fairing are they falling into poverty out of the government's radar screen are they actually getting jobs and having better lives. If you were mayor would you track those folks I think we should because knowledge is power and here's two points of sort of contradictory one I think legitimate to criticize that that the mayor has not been tracking where welfare clients have gone. On the other hand the reduction of the welfare rolls is tremendous and it's important for the city. We've dropped about 600000 welfare clients. Six years ago we had one million one hundred thirty six. And that means the city is saving one hundred fifteen million dollars a month city money alone. These are federal state and city

combined programs that we're not doing better than other cities. Statistically but we're doing as well and of course our numbers are huge. So this is all a good sign one suspects that the majority of people who have left the welfare rolls. Have either found work or were cheating to begin with or found some alternatives with family members. It is true there are some people who were removed from the rolls by some harshness in the administration who will have to appeal and come back because we do have to provide a safety net. But in general this is the reduction of the roles the booming economy. This ignores to the benefit of Mayor Giuliani I don't criticize him for that in fact I've complimented him for the crime reduction the welfare reduction in the job growth. But in fairness and balance if he behaves inappropriately I'm going to say so too. Last thing how do you track those welfare recipients. Oh you. You have their names and addresses and you do a random sample and the statistical sample will be sound and make the phone calls and find out what they're doing and where they're working by polling methodology.

And I think you'll have a generalized sense of where they are controller Elad have a say thank you very much. Thank you Brian. This is on the line on WNYC and May 20 when we come back. The Indian and Pakistani New Yorkers react to President Clinton's South Asia trip. Talk about a split reaction over their stated support for WNYC is provided by Chris Dodd hosting Koester a full service florist providing classic floral designs fruit gourmet and custom gift baskets to New Yorkers and worldwide for 100 years now in its new Chelsea location appointments only at 2 1 2 8 3 8 0 0 2 to WNYC is supported by the red blazer hideaway 32 West 37 Street between Fifth and Sixth Avenues. Entertainment from Dixieland to swing bands with dancing Monday through Saturday and fine dining with lunch and dinner for reservations and information. 2 1 2 9 4 7 6 4 2 8 Brooklyn Academy of Music supports WNYC presents Philip on film for original Philip Glass film scores performed live in the opera house by the Philip Glass ensemble alongside screenings of

Scots and Dracula. March 21st through 26 take at 7 1 8 6 3 6 4 100 or online at BAM dot org. This is on the line and I am a 20 WNYC and live on the web at WNYC dot or coming up later this hour the on the line soapbox including Can you trust a dressed down lawyer. And are you ready to drive a Murdoch. And if you want to continue reacting to Controller Alan Hevesi you can continue to do that on a soapbox web page go to WNYC dot org and click on the soapbox. Well President Clinton is spending his last day in India. Tomorrow he goes to Pakistan the India trip has had market highs and lows the worst of course being the attack in Kashmir apparently time to coincide with the president's trip which killed three dozen people. And Mr. Clinton's repeated admonitions not to use nuclear weapons and that the subcontinent is the most

dangerous place in the world right now. Drew resentment of the president as condescending and paternalistic yet he also seems to have much of official India mesmerized to the point of losing their reason as one Indian newspaper columnist. It and Pakistan's military coup leaders announce new elections as the president was on route. So how do explain the simultaneous resentment and exuberance. Well we want to hear what you think first priority for the next few minutes we'll go to Indian and Pakistani Americans with so many now living in our area of course. At 2 1 2 2 6 7 2 6 7 9 6 9 2 or via e-mail it ws on the line at WNYC dot org. And joining me now is co-founder and co-director of Aja Pak That's the Indian American political awareness committee dedicated to increasing political involvement among young Indian Americans. Welcome to WNYC thank you for joining us. Good morning. How have Having you been reacting to the president's trip.

Well thank you. Well me personally I'm happy that the president has finally made it over there. He's the first president to go first since Carter since 1988. But it's important to note that in general in the Indian-American half Asian American community there are a number of mixed feelings about the trip. Many people are happy that the president has finally made a trip over and has taken notice of the political tensions in the area. The fact that even nation security is an important issue that issues such as poverty and health care and education are important issues but also that Clinton has taken notice of the significant contributions that South Asian Americans make to the technology sector not only in America but in the world in general and I have gone over it. But of course there are a number of individuals in the community that are skeptical about the visit that are you know wondering why it took so long for an American president to go over not since Carter had one been there.

Right exactly. Well what about his telling Indians that they live in the most dangerous part of the world. And to announce nuclear weapons while the US continues to build them don't you want to just slap them and say get off the Great White Father thing. No I mean one another thing it's important to note that it is true that Clinton has been telling the government you know to sign the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty but at the same time he's been very candid in admitting that the U.S. itself has not signed the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty so he has said that you know he won't be a hypocrite and continue to scold the nation or try to tell it what to do it making a I think the president is trying to argue through example through illustrating how the U.S. and Russian history with nuclear proliferation and the feeling that the nuclear deterrence and building up of an arsenal is the way to prevent the war is is actually a mistake. And I think he sees that as potentially happening between India and Pakistan that

both countries are building an arsenal sort of to protect each other's own interests. But in fact the president probably feels that this is probably bringing the nations closer to making you know some accidental mistaken. And this is where India and the U.S. differs because India does feel that building an arsenal is important to its own security. And. Are Indian Americans in general in your experience resentful of the president for this. No I don't. I don't think so again. The interesting thing about the community in New York is it's a very diverse community religiously culturally as far as its ideals are concerned I think there are a lot of mixed feelings and I think people I think a lot of people appreciate the president's honesty in both handing out advice but also in being honest about the US's own shortcomings. And at the same time you certainly will find people who feel that you know America American the

American government is a hypocrite trying to you know tell India what to do when it comes to nuclear proliferation. PLOUFFE aeration and not following its own advice and. Another interesting phenomenon is probably that you will find a divide between what first generation Indian Americans think about these issues versus what the second generation Indian-Americans think about these issues and I fall into the second generation category. Meaning your parents came here right because people in the first generation both Indian American and South Asian American in general they have a lot of experiences growing up in the region and their interests are tied back to the region a lot more than people in my generation in my generation. A lot of us grew up here if not our entire lives. Certainly more than 50 percent of our lives and we care very much about the future of this country and about the history of this country and what we can do as a community to make an impact here. Well. Going to Pakistan next is the president is there much tension between Indian

Americans and Pakistani Americans once they're here. In your opinion is that also a generational thing. Again it's very much a generational thing. For instance if you look at organizations formed by South Asian Americans in our parents generation you'll find that there were organizations formed along the lines and divisions of religion Country Origin even state origin within India. Whereas if you look at organizations in our generation you'll find that most nonprofit organizations and social organizations and business organizations have the word South-Asian in them as opposed to Indian American or Pakistani American and what you find is that second generation South Asian Americans are very dedicated toward promoting cohesion in the community. And I don't know if you saw the recent documentary that Alan Gleason produced on. Channel 13. I didn't see salvation in New York and that was a great testament

to how South Asians who immigrate from India Pakistan Bangladesh Bhutan Nepal Sri Lanka over to America oftentimes leave behind all the political turmoil and their personal feelings about you know people from other countries when they come here and they see someone who looks south Asian American and whether they're from Pakistan or India or whatever the country may be they immediately feel a bond with that person then. And that has actually been a strength here. Well let me open up the phones and invite Indian Americans and Pakistani Americans along with the Americans if any are listening to call in and say if that's true in your experience do you feel that the tensions that exist between India and Pakistan spill over into the communities in New York or do you come here and experience a bond because here you are South Asians in America 2 1 2 2 6 7 WNYC 2 1 2 2 6 7 9 6 9 2 as we speak with Holly and co-founder and

co-director of Aja Pak the Indian American political awareness committee dedicated to increasing political involvement among young Indian Americans. How have you been reacting to the president's trip to India so far has this been a discussion a topic of discussion in your family is there a generational split in your family on how you see the Clinton trip how you see Indian politics how you see life in America and your role in a 2 1 2 2 6 7. WNYC 2 6 7 9 6 9 2. You have the president's trip people in in parliament were reported jumping on chairs and over benches to shake his hand. The press has gone nuts and the Indian columnist and novelist show Shobhaa De wrote India is mesmerized by Clinton he's cast a spell even the same list of people have lost their reason. What's going on. Yeah he really he really has and again it goes back to the feeling that though

people were wondering why it's taken so long for him to make the trip people are just so happy that finally the trip has been made and that the U.S. realizes that it has significant interest in the South Asian region both when it comes to ensuring the security of the nations and working toward nuclear nonproliferation but also as well as cooperating in the high technology sector on scientific collaboration. I don't know how many people have been following the vision statement that Clinton put out but it's a wonderful vision statement about laying some of the foundations about what the two countries hope to do together in the future to continue the dialogue on some of these issues related to energy and environmental issues and health care and foreign policy and international terrorism and and working together in the high technology sector. Let's get some phone calls Venkat in New Jersey you're on the line. Hi Brian. Great show. Thank you.

And I used to work in Manhattan and used to commute back to Queens because I still lived there and my experience of it you know how a lot of the pocket money I used to meet a lot of Pakistani taxi cab drivers and I have seen in most of their opinion they are actually against in all of this fight that's going on with India and I always had a great conversation with them and most of them say you know why should we fight let's settle it in some way the DP don't show any of those any more cities that I hear in common media either people from Pakistan and I have even some friends in Pakistan through my work who live in Pakistan actually and to get I think I have a very good relationship with them and I thought oh I'm glad you did and you get beyond that to share in common concerns that you have a South Asians in the New York area. No that's that's because we pretty much end up first it be just share and you bury the hatchet and move on. JOHN Okay thank you very much Raj in New Jersey as well you're on the line.

Hi I'm a pound of president in the big Asian Merchants Association of Jersey City. We have members from Boston as well as Bangladesh. My point is that being you know began to democracy. India was you in the list at the end and the U.S. policymakers and I think the Washington has always failed to recognize the fact that you know we're not going to leave them in. And the line he's not going to the Southeast Asia but I think so far Poppy Washington has been all of his pocket and do you know support for the short side of being in place and now a days. What do you have been ing is that those things are coming in front off as a monster. How how is India victimized by that. India is victimized by that because you know what Pakistan

supported 10 of these I mean these are the facts of the life now and I tell you when my Pakistani friends the same thing I mean you know those are the people as a people of good people and they generally fairly win how it plays in the sense that these all politics aside. But as a whole the feeling is that that we do need a piece of that and the basic thing is that when that Kashmir stays with India and India is like you know we can argue about the state that is a Muslim majority be any thought I might be going to belong to Pakistan because West Bengal has now six distinct which has a Muslim majority be one is in South India. Yet I left it. Let me jump in because our time is short and get a reaction from well some Indians care very deeply in America. Yes I think both of these callers have brought up a great and important point and I have had the same experiences of both of them and that is that Pakistanis in America and Indians

in America don't bring the conflict over to America with them when they come here a lot of people feel as if they're innocent pawns in this political game that they have no control over and in fact just as the first caller was saying I believe it was his name. I've I've been in cabs with Pakistani Americans and Indian Americans. They're very friendly people and none of the animosity there's no political talk there's no revenge they don't feel that resentment what they feel is that they would like the issue resolved that they want peace in the in the region that their families can feel safe that you know the region can work on improving. More important issues such as health care and and poverty as a as opposed to always having to focus on the struggle in the Kushan region and the religious struggles between the nations and things of that of that nature. And Raj thank you for your call we have a few more minutes here on a May 20 WNYC with Haiyan of a much more co-founder and co-director of a PAC the Indian-American political awareness committee dedicated to increasing political involvement among

young Indian Americans. And Luxman in Manhattan you're on the line. Hi thanks for taking my call. I agree very much with the points that have been raised by the other callers and I just wanted to add that I thought it was my interest are very much aligned with the with the U.S. I'm a second generation Indian and I just wanted to add that I think the U.S. interests are also very well served along with the Indian interests. These are be the longer term issues with China. India offers a great opportunity for some alternate views in the Asian reasoned region other than than some of the Chinese view. And it's a nice balance I just wanted to add that into the discussion. All right. And if I may just also add in as far is the U.S. and India working together is concerned I think and you know it's an important step in the future toward improving relations between a country improving the economy in general be it because both countries.

Basically make up more than 25 percent of the world economy. But if I may also add in that it is important that here in this country that we continue to focus on cohesion in the community and continue to improve upon the work that organizations have made in you know cutting across the country in religious lines and continuing to work together to become a South Asian American community and show that in our organization is actually launching a new name a new website which will better reflect the fact that we serve the entire South Asian community and that name is. I can't reveal it at this but you can go in June to the website which is w w w dot APAC dot net and you will see the new name which will encompass the word foundation packed in a New Jersey online. I thank you for taking my call. I just want to give my input in what was earlier said about by any American an Indian American in this country being the

complete that I came here about 33 years ago and so a good portion of my life has been burned in boxes. And my kids were born here and my then is. That to begin with we are promoting that to be the best season. I was as dark as any American to some extent and to be able to get to know exactly who they are what you know they were about. So do you feel a little to that by the use of the blanket term South Asian. Well what I what I was going to follow up with is written with what we'll be doing in the words of two things One is to associate themselves without reasons and another would be Muslim-Americans but that requires time as they are comfortable with their own identity. Then they're going to get broader and widen up

on some issues they are most likely going to grow and affiliate themselves with South Asian groups in other directions they're going to very strongly affiliate themselves the Muslim Americans on issues of religion. So there's going to be that those two aspects on an individual level. I don't think that there is animosity between about any American and an Indian American as an individual on policy issues. Obviously then there are two sides and one is going to lean heavily in one direction with the other really money issues and that is what I see who does end up being when it goes when the getting motivated to some degree. I do I mean I think the important thing is that the word South Asian American is not exclusive of being Pakistani American or Muslim

American and certainly we encourage people to you know take pride in their their background in their homeland and things like that. And everyone is you know either Irish American or maybe they're French American at some point everyone of us immigrated from some region of the world over to this country. But what we are trying to do is to create a collective voice for a community that immigrated here from South Asia and which shares some cultural bonds and which can which probably experience. The effects of political legislation in similar ways whether they're from Pakistan or India and to basically create a collective voice so that they can respond to some of the legislation and be leaders in promoting change when change is needed. Charlayne thank you for your call. We're just about out of time. Give me one example in our

last 30 seconds of domestic legislation in the United States that you think is of particular concern to the Pakistani and Indian American communities or is it or is your political organization of young South Asians mostly concerned with policy toward that region. I'm sorry I read talking to me just to you. OK you said Shane. Sorry. I'm sorry what was the question. The question is can you give me one example of domestic legislation since you know the second generation Indian and Pakistani Americans as so many immigrant communities tend to get focused more on life in the United States than life in the homeland. What's it what's it. Example of domestic legislation that you think is of particular concern to the communities here. Well certainly legislation affecting Medicare policies are important to the community especially if the portions of the community are receiving assistance through Medicare or Medicaid so any any legislation

relating to health care certainly affects the community. Those are important issues. But in general one of the important things we are concerned about is having people in the South Asian community vote a lot of not enough people actually go out to the polls and make their voice heard through voting. And another important concern for us is the not only voter registration but becoming American citizens a large portion of South Asian Americans living in this country are still green card holders or passport holders of their native homeland and it's important that if they're going to be working in this country and making contributions to this country that certainly that they consider becoming U.S. citizens. Holly novela co-founder and co-director of. Pact the Indian American political awareness committee dedicated to increasing political involvement among young Indian Americans thank you so much for coming on with us. I hope we can have you back when you launch the new

website. That would be great. Thanks for having me on. This is on the line on Amie 20 WNYC I'm Brian Lehrer Now on to the soapbox for today including Do you want to dress down lawyer and are you ready to drive a Murdoch or anything else at 2 1 2 2 6 7 WNYC 2 6 7 9 6 9 2 you can call on anything more Indians and Pakistanis welcome or anyone else. First the Murdoch talk about the media driven the world MSNBC reports that Rupert Murdoch is thinking of making a bid on General Motors. It says crazy as it might seem Murdoch's News Corp has been working for months on a strategy by which it could make an unsolicited bid for General Motors according to sources close to News Corp. It says While the bid is considered a long shot. Sources said News Corp. doesn't want to own GM auto making or finance operations but it's all strategy to gain control of GM satellite assets. DirecTV and it had there been no talks but

apropos of nothing I just thought you'd like to know that your next Chevy might come with a subscription to The New York Post. Now the lawyers I know it's casual Friday throughout the work world today but. Even some very high end Law firms are now going all casual all the time in their dress codes. That piece in The Times today asks if clients want casually dress lawyers so I'll ask you. Do you feel somehow more protected and taken care of and represented by someone in pinstripes rather than khakis. If so is that an illusion. Someone here said she thinks she actually does better work on the job when she's better dressed because she's donned a more professional demeanor and it carries over to how she feels. I've often felt on the other hand that I do better work when I'm casually dressed like suits and ties or an artificial layer between me and my feelings and creativity and connection with others. But I also remember being a little taken aback the first time I had a dentist who showed up in jeans and a T-shirt. What about you for yourself at work and for those

professionals like lawyers who you hire and on that or anything else. The soapbox is standing at 2 1 2 2 6 7 W NYC 2 6 7 9 6 9 2 or chime in via email at on the line at WNYC dot org and we'll take your calls at 2 6 7 9 6 9 2. Right after this hello I'm going to blow p. Join me on the Friday edition of New York and Company at noon when I begin the show with horticulturist drug lords and your call. Son what will make your garden or the plants in your window box grow then but Yemeni instrument maker will demonstrate and perform on the road. Have our end of the week open phone segment New York weekdays starting at noon here on NYC. WNYC is supported by cancer education dot com an information resource for patients families and professionals Cancer Education dot com provides educational video programs

on a variety of cancer related topics including new treatment options and coping advice for patients and their families. More information is available at. Cancer Education dot com. Meet the Satellite Sisters five women with the same parents but very different lives. This is Julie's advice for her college bound son. What if the tattoo says. I don't think it's going to be real soon. Satellite Sisters. This is on the line on AM e 20 WNYC and WNYC dot org. Hope you can join me for on the media this weekend we will look at the legacy of Life

magazine the marketing of the movie Cider House Rules to the Academy Awards Committee and much more that's on the media Saturday morning at 7:00 and Sunday afternoon at 4:00 here on Amie 20 and WNYC dot org. Now do your phone calls on the soapbox on do you trust a dressed down lawyer or anything else at 2 1 2 2 6 7 WNYC 2 6 7 9 6 9 2. And Andrew in New Jersey you're on the line. Hi there. Hi. Basically I think the issue is a little bit deeper so sweet a lot of people you know we've had a long decline in terms of the value that people place on first impression. And personally I feel like if I consider you Portland. To take your impressions into consideration I'm going to take the time to dress up. Yeah but that's like saying it doesn't necessarily matter

intrinsically but it matters what people think. It Right and matters what it matters that that everybody is walking around with this sort of pretense to put the most cynical view on it pretense that that close the amount that you're dressed up matters. So you have to do it for that reason those external reasons. Well I you know I suppose that is an extreme cynical view and I would say that you know as much as we all like to talk about being sincere and from the heart we're human beings to a great extent and we still rely on oppression. You know I certainly I don't think that there are too many people walking the streets today that would consider the grunge look you know with jeans hanging off the you know their butts and and all that to be. Something that would be in good taste. So is it do you get an impression I mean if you're if you're let's say let's take the dress down lawyer example and the law firm that was in the article doesn't

allow jeans require shirts that have collars and that have buttons. So you know ties no jackets no suits no khakis Yes no casual but not jeans not T-shirts not sweatshirts. Do you have a sense of do you think that you would react to that lawyers being somehow less qualified or less professional or competent. I think it's occupationally relative. I don't expect a mechanic Thorsten. And I don't expect a tennis pro coming off the court to dress up. But I think if this lawyer wants to convince me that. That he's professional and sharp and on the ball he doesn't hurt himself. By giving me that impression walking in the door. If he walks in looking like you know he could be any computer guy or the U.P.S. man then you think it could go either way. Well all I'm saying is I realize that first impressions aren't everything. Yeah.

ANDREW Thank thank you. Good call. You're welcome Jayne queens are on the line. Thanks so much Brenda. Oh my I can't get on I want to know I've been on twice in one week. Well I'm a physician. And the reason I'm calling is again about the dress code by the way if you don't want to be on I can take someone else but I had it. No it's about the dress code and it's interesting because in my 20s when I was first in practice I found the dress code to be more than a little important and I would have to show up in a suit and tie or a jacket and tie and now in my 50s if I show up with an open color shirt and I'm properly dressed even if I'm wearing khakis the gray hair carries a certain amount of waste of my professional reputation at this point. My patients who certainly don't look askance at me but that age and it's also the weight of the weight of my reputation what about weight of my experience what about when you see younger doctor dressing up or dressing down. I think fans I think some of it has to do with their own professional bearing like I think people

now who even dressed up have no professional bearing and I see people dressed in jeans and have a great deal of sessional bearing What I'm amazed at is I was in a very very pricey restaurant over the weekend and I saw people who were older than myself who had such poor manners that I was surprised that they had the money to go to a restaurant like that that haven't the money came with no manners attached. And I think that the bearing of the manners are more of what you talk about than simply dressing up for dressing down. Jay thank you very much for your call I will remind Jay and all of the listeners that we do ask you to get on the air no more than once a week here to give others a chance to to get their turns but we can't keep score on everybody but thanks a lot for your call. And Rahm in New Jersey you're on the line. Rahm are you there. All right maybe Rahm gave up Robert in Manhattan you're on the line. Hello. Hello Robert.

Hi. Thanks for putting me on. I just want to talk about this dress code thing. I'm sort of pro dress code I think that there were human beings and I've been programmed up to this point too. To make first impressions on people and to read people and to take all sorts of non-verbal cues from people as to what what they really mean and what they're trying to say to us. And I think that it's important that people keep that in mind first impressions really do count. So it's interesting that what those non-verbal cues signify seems to be changing so much I'm shocked in my years in the work world how much I've seen my boss is dressing down I mean it's actually more important for me to dress up because I in this position you know on a given day I don't know if Alan Hevesi for example the city controller was going to come in today or be on the phone as it was he was on the phone but I you know I had to be ready to look my professional best for him. My my bosses not just here but everywhere in broadcasting who used to wear suits and ties and pinstripes and the whole

thing. You know now were wearing sweatshirts and t shirts and it's throughout the industry. Well I am I'm not against being casual. All I'm saying is that there's a way to be casual and still project these nonverbal cues correctly so that you know you can still have a professional bearing. Until you're old enough to learn how to have a professional you know what your butt but my question but but my point is that the cues seem to be changing I guess some people react to it with horror but I'm not sure that that to use the bosses as an example that they carry any less authority with the people who work for them. So where does it come in. Well the organization gives them authority you know they're your boss correct and they know you're the employee. But they still have these nonverbal cues that sort of underpin their authority and if they need ignore those then the authority of the corporation weakens in the organization weakens so I think it's really important for people to dress casually be comfortable don't have to wear a suit. But to understand that they're still projecting themselves first impression why do you meet the public you had to wear or thought you should wear a tie when

Mr. Hennessy was going to show up. And because he's the public you meet with the public your bosses probably don't. Thanks for your call Robert particularly me and Harmeet in new By the way I brought the time when I found out I have A C was going to be on the phone. I left it in my bag. But Hamid in New Jersey you're on the line. Yes this is me. Yes sir. OK here is the situation. I hop live my life in America. And then when I was gone be whole and going to India and put that in the other Technically I could be called an Indian too. And that's precisely my point I think the people we got bogged down in NATO at that. There in that sub but I didn't put all the powder in the US together they were all creation accomplished but that was such a tremendous amount of tension which is created right now Andy and the blame should go really to the leaders of the border countries. I was simply to continue farm and stop paying attention to the

problems which well facing the country which was high unemployment and modern education and a disparity of wealth and even distribution of wealth. Why do you think it's so hard to get the leaders on both sides to take such an enlightened view. I am coming to you you know what the problem is Abbott says they have brought this issue up. Should be in the middle of the two countries and the south trying to Saddam would be keep shooting because they use this to unite the Mafia's behind them so that be a cad and divert attention from the real problems which are facing them from day to day life. Why do you think there is such mobs migration from boats going to because they live in conditions they are not as good as he and even some of the countries and communities don't even want to be affiliated either with Pakistan are in the RBA want to have it stand up to all. Which is fine why can't they have freedom they don't look like. The study that Indian did look different even if you just look at them

they are not because you do the different and the boats countries at once if they were all farmed you would do tremendous amount of time and and resources to propaganda which was full of water hatred among the two people. Yes on one level it's always easy to divert attention from the tough problems by which whipping up nationalistic fervor not that that's the only thing going on but it's certainly done all the time all over the world. Thank you for your call me call again. John in Brooklyn you're going to get the last 30 seconds you got to do it in a soundbite. OK John Vause shortly the Supreme Court of Chief Justice of the Supreme Court was the ultimate dressed down lawyer tell the story when he was practicing as an appellate advocate. Virginia he shows up. Someone tell if someone was looking for a lawyer that somebody tells him go to John Marshall he sees him he's dressed in riding boots looks like a complete hick is here all the Cheval says I'm going to another one.

But then when he heard marshal argue the previous case he ended up taking out money and giving him a retainer after already having paid the first boy and maybe that's what they were thinking. Codd Well Lotter Wickersham and Taft when they introduced their casual. All the time policy. That's the last word on that. Thanks for your call the CEO of Comedy Central. After the news on why the presidential race runs through the late night talk shows. From NPR News in Washington I'm Carl Kasell. The Justice Department has told the Miami relatives of 6 year old Elian Gonzalez that it will take swift action to return the boy to Cuba unless they agreed to speed up the court fight over custody. Justice Department letter was asking for an answer by noon today the agency wants the relatives to agree to a speedy timetable for the repeal of the federal court decision against them. Pope John Paul has celebrated his largest mass in the Holy Land. The crowd of close to 100000 was filled with mostly young people near the Sea of Galilee. NPR's

Jennifer Ludden reports. John Paul spoke on the furthest slope where it's believed he delivers the Sermon of the Beatitudes his message was the same lesson or the week before and the press. He told young people there are the new disciples and they must ignore the contradictory message of modern society as the winners in life for the proud and the violence those who may or not these awful Arab Christians are shrinking minority here are vastly outnumbered by foreign children. People from more than a dozen countries who went for the event. There were even bus loads of. Christian drove down from the Israeli occupied southern Lebanon later today on all four sides. Where is the former American event. He's really fine minister of Iraq. Jennifer Ludden NPR News at the Galilee. European Union leaders and at this summit unemployment with several proposals to make their economies more Internet driven. Alison Roberts reports from the Portuguese capital

Lisbon. Everyone agreed on the problem. Sluggish job creation even in times of growth but there have been a split between advocates of liberalization and state intervention. Prime Minister Antonia good parents approach a goal which held the EU presidency at this meeting marked a break with the past with cabbages. We bargain we indicate that the benchmark what they're doing for the nation and the political will that I have never found in the new EU leaders pledge to use the opportunities offered by the Internet to paste jobs rather than let it create new social divisions. First on the agenda are a legal framework for e-commerce under single you tell. Comes markets most importantly future summits will have a cultivating row giving direction to the meetings of ministers that powerful new legislation. For NPR News I'm Alison Roberts in Lisbon. High seas are hampering rescue efforts in the Atlantic Ocean some 400 miles from Bermuda. That's where a Greek cargo ship has gone down. The Coast Guard says five bodies have been recovered and 13 people have been rescued. There were 31 crew members on board ships on the

scene are now looking for those still missing. On Wall Street the Dow Jones Industrial Average is up one hundred eight points to eleven to twenty seven. Trading is heavy on a volume of 330 million shares. The Nasdaq composite index is up one hundred twenty nine and a half points to 50 70. This is NPR News. Support for National Public Radio comes from Smart Money dot.com financial advice analytical tools and coverage of the financial world on the web at Smart Money dot com. This is WNYC May 20 and WNYC dot org at 11 0 4 it is going to remain sunny today with highs near 65 right now 62 degrees and sunny in Central Park. Good morning I'm serious Johnson first lady and New York Senate candidate Hillary Rodham Clinton was the subject of a hearing in Washington yesterday WNYC Kerry Nolan has more on Capitol Hill yesterday Democrats and Republicans squared off over the first lady's use of government aircraft to travel around New York.

Well Mrs. Clinton is said to have incurred travel costs of one hundred eighty two thousand dollars. Her campaign has repaid the government only about thirty four thousand dollars. Campaign rules stipulate repayment for the trips at the same cost as a first class commercial airline ticket. Republicans demanded she pay back all the money. Democrats called the meeting an extension of Mayor Giuliani's Senate campaign and said Mrs. Clinton is following the letter of the law as well as security procedures recommended by the Secret Service for WNYC. I'm Carrie Nolan. The Reverend Jesse Jackson is blasting Mayor Giuliani's handling of the Patrick Dorismond shooting the civil rights activist says rather than show sympathy and ask for calm. The mayor pulled Mr. Dorismond juvenile record to try to justify the killing. The Reverend Jackson says those are the actions of a disturbed. Damn police in New Jersey must follow strict rules when it comes to questioning minors. The state Supreme Court has ruled police cannot interrogate any suspects 13 years old or under unless their parents are present. Officers also must give

parents and suspects under 18 the choice of whether parents are there during an interrogation in local pro-action tonight the next host Atlanta the nets host Minnesota. And on the ice the islanders host the Devils sunny skies for the rest of today. Highs near 65 degrees right now 62 degrees and sunny in Central Park. WNYC at 11 0 6. This is on the line. I'm Brian Lehrer. Political candidates used to crave Walter Cronkite and David Brinkley saying nice things about them on TV. Now they seem more concerned about Jay Leno and David Letterman. Letterman was only half joking I think when he looked George W. Bush in the eye and said The road to Washington runs through me. But why. And what does it say about the state of the American electorate. Well who better to ask about this than Larry David a CEO of the cable channel Comedy Central. Larry welcome to WNYC Hi

Brian. Bush McCain Gore Bradley Hillary Clinton they've all appeared on either Letterman or Leno. Some of them have done stuff with The Daily Show on your network. And you know they don't do that unless there is something to be gained. What do you think it is. Well you know I think it's a couple things what one is. I think it's important that they not only you know try to reach this audience that sometimes is very skeptical about the political process to begin with but also it's really an opportunity for them to be. Will let their hair down and show more you know real side to them and side to them that they don't see as they're up in front of the microphone or on Meet the Press or you know you know on the campaign trail and as you know we've had quite a few people on as have the late night shows on network and I think it's not only a new trend I think it's going to be now a must stop as these people campaign a matter of matter what office they're reaching. Can you be funny with Bill Bradley is it humanly possible. You know I think you know the answer is yes I mean you know we have Bob Dole on our air who you know when he ran for president as you know and Bob Dole is not necessarily thought of as the windiest guy in

the world but as he gets into another setting he's actually extremely witty extremely funny very endearing. And I think that you know Bill Bradley and any of those who know him well when he gets to the point where he is himself and he's relaxed and he lets his hair down as you can do on all these shows. A whole nother side of these politicians come out and it's a whole nother appeal and I think the the electorate is very pleased about that. Now the recent Pew Center survey found nearly half of Americans under 30 say they get their political information from late night television. You know that many are not watching Dan Rather. Every night. So what does that mean is a generation of light weights coming up in America. You know I wouldn't call that light weights I think you know. You know the political process as you know has never had a great appeal to the to the younger audience I think this is really a great opportunity you know for the politicians to reach this younger audience and I think that they need to show you know a real side of themselves and really also really bring up the issues. I mean they can't just sit there and try to be funny. Occasionally they do have to say something about the issues

but it can be couched and it can be delivered in a more humorous terms and in an environment where that 20 to 30 year old can relate. And I think that what older people forget is that they probably got their political information from late night television when they were under 30 too different to Chevy Chase on Saturday Night Live knew a lot a lot less about it than Bill Maher does. Well that's true and you know Bill Maher specifically deals very much with the issues and I think there's a lot more cutting with it as you said in your opening here. Letterman says the road to Washington runs through me I don't think he was kidding. And I think that you know all the campaign managers now know that they must stop as they you know that late night television or politically incorrect or you know even getting eventually on some of the early morning radio you'll see I think it was another trend which I think is very similar to a lot of the stuff they need to reach this audience and show themselves very clearly of of that other side not not just the politician side. And I guess it's you know the age. The irony that we live in as well you mentioned the

Morning radio it's not just the late night television leading politicians regularly go on Imus. You cannot get ripped satirically right to their faces. Well you know what and you know who do we like you know if you look at our own personal lives or if you know your family or your friends it's the person who can who can take a good ribbing that you like to be around because we all like to poke fun. But in some ways in the poking fun it is in some ways also you know an endorsement and I think that you know you'll see more and more of that. One of the points I did want to make about you know some of the politicians is that they have been afraid if you go back you know Johnny Carson who could have probably elected a lot of presidents they really weren't coming through as much in those days until they were elected or until they were out of office. But now as they're in the fight and in the heat of battle they're realizing this dynamic is actually a critical stop. So people finish their morning commute after hearing Imus rip into a politician and they get to work thinking gee that Senator Hatch is a fun guy. Well you know I've got to believe that no matter what politician it is a no matter what the mindset is by the voting public that when they do make

an appearance on any one of these environments morning comedy shows or morning radio shows or late night TV shows that they come away and people see another side of them and it is of a benefit there's no doubt in my mind about it. This is. The line on I am a 20 WNYC My guest is Larry David a CEO of the cable channel Comedy Central. We can take your phone calls for him at 2 1 2 2 6 7 WNYC 2 6 7 9 6 9 2. You actually had an op ed piece about this in The New York Times. Was it disorienting to see your words set in that serious type. You know actually not really because of the subject matter it was a little disorienting to see my name in the New York Times I've been reading it for years and always a you know a big fan of the paper obviously and it's kind of a cultural experience for me so to see my name with with this editorial and there was it was quite a different feeling for the New York Times for me to be inside of it instead of outside of it was quite a thrill I must admit. And we were very pleased obviously to get this point of view across because an anomaly do we believe it but we think it certainly

does a lot for and you know the industry of television who actually approach the subject material this way there is something that's kind of a distraction about it though. And they I mean they didn't come through during the Johnny Carson days as you say and now you couch it in terms of the connection with with a potential voters and people liking them. But but that doesn't say anything about what they're going to do how good they're going to be at their jobs when they get elected. No doubt but you know Also let's not lose sight of the fact that you know a lot of us will watch Late Night With David Letterman or The Daily Show with Jon Stewart. But we'll also watch Meet the Press and so we do it we are able to see them in both environments and I think that dimension is really important that they should not be one dimensional candidates. I mean you'll you look at George Bush and as he began his you know primary campaign in the fight and the appeal that he had and he changes appeals he went through I think he should have a change a little more and I think he probably should have stopped in at one of the late nights. You know as he did with Letterman a little sooner. And I think you'll see him do that more

but I think just because they did this. Dynamic is available and that people do show up on late night television you can still read the paper and talk about there and read about their issues you can still you know get the interviews on Meet the Press So I think that it's important to the to the voter obviously depending on the age group to be able to look across all the different available media where these guys are appearing. But for the younger age group it's a way to get them involved and I think that they will eventually be watching Meet the Press. Let's take a phone call Tim in Jersey City you're on the line. Hi Brian you know I'm not disagreeing with anything you guys are saying but it seems to me that that the politicians appearing on late night TV shows the systematization of you and me that's always been present in American politics. For instance when Lincoln when he had the British diplomats that fought on the on the ship on the ship he said like you know let's fight one war at a time Adley Stevenson had that funny line about you know all the Americans with a brain would vote for me he said well I need to win the election it seems. Hugh Murray has always been present and Francis when Orrin Hatch Ronald Reagan a very funny man and

I mean at least in his words and Orrin Hatch when he dropped out was cracking jokes all the time and so it seems to be just a part and parcel of American politics since the beginning I might say. Jim you're absolutely correct and I agree with I mean you go back to the Lincoln-Douglas debates in some ways yes and some you were in there and I think that what's happened is that the TV networks in the late night shows ourselves we may have with ones who have been missed the opportunity until recently I think had you know years ago the bookers of these shows been able to get these politicians and I think they would have that John Quincy Adams sure knew how to deliver a lot. Tim thanks very much. Thank you for your call. Addie on the lower east side you're on the line. Yeah you know I think this guy's been poppycock and balderdash because most of these late night comedians they have you know they are primarily using these people to up their ratings. They are not comedians most of them. What they do they I mean they are nasty and they try to scare up these people they think they're king makers.

Except for Letterman is not as bad as the big guy. And that is a good guy. Yeah I know I guess and Bill Bill has his his program is situated different so it's a different thing. But mostly these guys just not to be believed. I've never met anybody who voted for us I won because they appeared and allowed themselves to be belittled by these small brained people well that's that's a good point Larry. If the road to the White House really does pass through the David Letterman said do you think anybody has ever won or lost an election even a close election based on anything that happened on late night TV. Not at all. I tend to agree with the gentleman however I think he should also understand that this is one dimension of the political process and there's no doubt that the late night shows or any television show when they book a guest it's derived somewhat for them to you know to boost their ratings and to have their show have more appeal. I do think that that the dimension and at the humorous side of a candidate to come out however is a beneficial thing I mean John

Kennedy had a great appeal to the voting public with out late night television. Think a lot of other politicians are handled so so much by their handlers that they don't necessarily show a softer or a funnier side and I think that some of the late night guys do get a little caustic at times not all of them. Letterman can be or can't be. Certainly Jon Stewart on The Daily Show our show is it is a very endearing guy Bill Maher can be very cutting. And I think that if you're going to be a politician in this world and you're going to be facing Congressman and a lot of subcommittees that you know they need to reach its audience that doesn't regularly watch more traditional news I think it's important that they do get exposed to this viewership. It isn't the most sophisticated way maybe to deal with the issues and to find out about the issues. But they do find out about the politician that found out about the candidate and some ways they may even investigate this Kennedy further but I don't believe they're kingmakers in late night not at all. They think they are. And also what they do is to follow that and Kosten and hope they will very good political

stuff and they poke fun at everybody. And you could let these people just embarrass me. Anyway I'm very political and the only one of them that I would ever watch would be law because I've just given up on these people with this stuff anything. Thanks for your call my guest is Larry David the CEO of the cable channel Comedy Central we can't take more calls for him at 2 1 2 2 6 7 w and y c 2 6 7 9 6 9 2 or send email to on the line at WNYC dot org. Let me follow up on something else that. That Eddie said he talked about the meanness that he sees. And I gotta tell you. Your Daily Show has its critics people have called here and said the comedy since Jon Stewart took over has actually become too mean to much of the time. Is that because it gets ratings. No that's not the reason at all I mean that's the style that the editorial style of the show. You know what we do is we have a very satirical approach to things actually. Let's

take a look at this from our point of view. It's our band. We don't pretend to be delivering our news as the issue does it. You know we have a place. We have the ability to to even say things that others can't say about a particular issue or a particular approach that maybe they'd like to say we really you know we believe strongly in the First Amendment and being able to use that to to to a tenth degree by you know taking the particular subject material and really poking real serious fun at it it's not meant to be damaging or caustic at all but it is certainly meant to have a cutting side and is that positioning I mean Jay Leno is funny but soft Letterman's edgier but has that Alfred E. Newman grin. You have to compete with wrestling on those other cable stations on Comedy Central. Well you know I'm not so sure that Letterman is so soft I mean you know the way he deals with Leno and I said Glenn I look at Leno's opening monologue sometimes very serious cutting stuff in a very humorous format so I think the way it's delivered might couch it a little better but you know on The Daily Show we really we like to take a

real humorous sarcastic look at the issues and present him that way. We'll continue in a minute with Larry David the CEO of the cable channel Comedy Central and your calls. And coming up later this hour WNYC film reviewer Owen Leiberman talks about what this year's Oscar nominees reveal about America. As we finish the week on a media note Stay with us on the line here I am a 20 W NYC WNYC is supported by Essex computers and Apple specialist Essex helps companies realize the potentials of the Internet through Apple's share and OS 10 software security solutions training and web design. More information available at 9 7 3 7 7 3. Twenty three hundred and six computers enabling technology with knowledge support for WNYC is provided by Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center the best cancer care anywhere. On March 30 first from 9:30 to 3:30 a free symposium will address the latest advances in treating head neck and oral cancers sponsored by Memorial Sloan Kettering as post treatment resource program. Reservations at 2 1 2 7 1 7 3

5 2 8. This is on the line on WNYC am May 20 I'm Brian Lehrer with Larry David nice CEO of the cable channel Comedy Central he had an op ed piece in The New York Times not too long ago about why the road to Washington seems to pass through the late night comedy shows these days. And we have a lot of people want to talk to you so let's go back to our phones. Some guy in Manhattan you're on the line. Yes. I would watch the Leno show until the first Clinton joke and then my set goes off either through another channel or off the air. Now is that because the up political supporter of Clinton you think they pick on him too much because you don't find it funny. I don't find it funny. I think that it's got going to be a one joke movie and it's on and on and on. And it becomes I mean and it

becomes nasty and it's not funny. You know I think you're talking about last year during the Lewinsky scandal more so than you know as he runs for office when you know when we were well I think it was all the way through. And you know it started with the Lewinsky stuff right. But it it continued and continued on almost anything. Well what kind of discussions you have about that behind the scenes Larry is any. Considered off limits is anything considered biased. Do you discuss those those questions. You know I you know we don't I personally don't get you know I don't censor the writing groups over at The Daily Show we have executive producers who oversee it. And you know we also want people to really remember and look at the name of the channel it is Comedy Central right. But you must know what goes on but it's kind of there are times of taste certainly to some things that you know writers can really want to take it to a place where it's really mean spirited We really like to poke fun at it to look at things in a very satirical way and in many ways you know sometimes it's not going to appeal to

everyone some people are going to find it not funny where others do. Comedy is a very subjective business. But we do know that you know the political candidate handlers now know that a lot of candidates it's important for them to come through these late night shows I mean politics is a risky business as is comedy a risky business. Al Gore who's perception to a lot of people is very stiff. You know who is a man of who believes in a lot of issues and has a strong stance on a lot of issues I think it's important that he shows he has a funny side. It's not critical to these people that they do this to get to the White House I think of none of them ever or of one of them never showed up on a late night television or a network at all. I don't think that's going to ruin or damage or enhance his chances to be elected I think it's just one more stop. You know one more opportunity for them to reach the voting public. Mark in Manhattan you know on the line i. I think a lot of people I think people are generally aware that candidates will say on the issues whatever they have to say in order to get elected. And so more and

more people are looking to try to get an idea of who this person is. Is this somebody I trust is that somebody that that I that I believe in and these kinds of informal appearances make a big difference. Everything has changed I mean before 92 we never had the kind of town hall debate where candidates got up and just spoke to individuals in the audience which Clinton of course was marvelous at. And I think Bush lost that election the moment during the town hall debate when he was sitting on his stool and he checked the time on his watch. Like I want to get out here and I are talking to these people it was a seminal moment in a campaign when George W. Bush appeared on Letterman. I saw a side of him I'd never seen before. The fact that he can't think on his feet. Right. And it worries me to have a president who can't think of as he came off as really slow and dumb. And it did it. Pop something about that man that I don't get from the formal prepared debate so informal talk with candidates I think is coming more and more important regardless of whether it's comedy or not. But just seeing them as an individual I think really impacts

if we're going to vote for them. Will you know you make a good point about they'll say whatever they want about the issues because the economy is doing so well. You know the personality of the candidates is a lot of research shows it is more important than ever and people rank personality and character as one of their top issues with candidates as well as the issues that they stand for and you're right they will politicize the issues but it's very difficult to politicize a personality. And in defense of George Bush that's the first time he's been on Letterman that's an easy chair to sit in. You put any major actor or actress or anyone in that chair the first time out. You know that's a tough spot it's a risky seat to be in but Larry tell me that the real buzz in the industry was the Hillary Clinton apparent scripted and George W. Bush left on his own to be spontaneous. Well you know that was via satellite I believe on the on the Letterman thing. And I do believe it was which is even harder than being in the seat I do believe it was scripted although I don't know this for sure and he sort of prepared what he's going to do anybody. I think you know and it happens that we you know I can remember they were both scripted you know and then Hillary's very scripted in.

And I think that you know as they go further into this and as they do it more and I think it's really important as this gentleman says I think that their character and who they are as a people is what really the voter wants to see. You know when you what. Wait a bit let me jump in here because Mark give me a little reality check you're telling me that it matters to you in your vote for president if George W. Bush couldn't deliver his comedy lines well in a scripted piece on David Letterman is that what you're saying. No what I'm saying is of course I mean of course I'm going to look at the candidate and on the issues that that matters to me and that's obviously a top priority. But also I want to see how does this person handle him or herself in a situation. And of course both Bush and Hillary came in there with some lines given to them by their staff Bush's lines were terrible but they have some lines. But at the same time they have to be able to roll with the punches. I think on their feet how agile are they how smart are they in a pressure situation and Hillary came off

fantastically and Bush couldn't handle himself so how will he handle himself in a situation meeting a head of state where he can't have everything scripted he has to actually talk. Up to that person I think I just see what he taught me on that a minute that he couldn't handle like you have to have handlers do everything for him. I had all the all in. George was on the Letterman thing it was via satellite when we were when he was on the Leno show he did a lot better. I mean it is a hot seat and I think that George Bush's personality is not as spontaneous as maybe Hillary Clinton's personality and or maybe as a John McCain's personality or. But again Al Gore maybe not as spontaneous as a as a John McCain this is what I think is good about it is we are at we do have an opportunity to see this personal side of him. I would suggest that maybe they should be on a couple of times before the election because it is as I mentioned earlier these are not easy environments to sit down in especially for a guy who like George Bush who is not the most spontaneous person in the world and who has not been in this dynamic before. It's very intimidating and

as he found out it can be damaging if you're not prepared for it. We want to give people a real good chance to show. Can do in a comedy situation where they become the leader of the free world. All right thank you for your call Mark please call again. Now here's one of your employees Larry calling to brownnose the boss I guess. I want to I want to know why do not at their desk. This is Madeline the executive producer of The Daily Show from The Daily Show I think I've heard of her. Hey Larry what do you what's your last name Mr. Senor on the credits. Yes absolutely co-creator of the show and I am sick which is why I am home and there you are on the radio so you can't get rid of me Madeline. You're doing great. You know and you know it's all because I've learned all this from The Daily Show. There you go I just want it now you know by the way with The Daily Show studies up for the news in the morning but go ahead man I'm here tonight right Brian although I'm usually at work by the time that you come on I never hear your show on the Monday that I do there is my boss. I just wanted to say one thing specifically in regard to your comment that people your listeners have complained that the Daily Show under the direction of

Jon Stewart as host was to me and I think you actually probably. What you're hearing are residual reactions to our previous incarnation with Craig Kilborn I think that the show with Jon and Jon has taken over has really we've been working quite consciously and consistently to try to temper the meanness. And I really think that whatever listeners were confusing it with the Craig Kilborn days we consider our target incredibly carefully and actually do so much self monitoring and we want our jokes to be funny but we also do want them to be aimed in the right direction. Can you give me an example of like a conversation that you've had in a production meeting about where the line is on a particular joke or Target. Hard for me to come up with specific examples because there's so much material we do for these shows a week and it just you know.

But I do know for instance in the Monica Lewinsky we really tried to you know secure clear we we did our share of Uncas by the way it was almost a year and a half of material but we tried to you know target kind of a little bit more than just making repeated jokes about Monica white and we really do try to make sure that on any given topic we're getting it and we're coming in with the humor but that we're also not you know being kind of a David and Goliath and whacking the little guy way too hard. Wait jokes get old fast. Yeah exactly you know the point Amanda makes Brian is that you know we have also had great access to the politicians they want to come on The Daily Show. They know the environment they know who John is and that John is someone who will have some fun with them and will poke fun but is not going to take a mean spirited approach to their personalities. But Natalie. Tell me from the producers where the host saw it of these interactions with the with the politicians. Are you solely trying to be funny are you

trying to be tough. Are you trying to make any political statements. I believe that we are. I think that some of the questions that Jon Stewart asked Will definitely had weight but not in a just sort of mudslinging way in a way that you want we have to ask him the questions that everybody wonders he asked. So if in the campaign it actually becomes personal and optimal and yeah yeah that's that was a funny moment actually. But he definitely did absolutely were there to help shed light. But I also think that John shows these people some of the respect that is due to them because of their stature. And yes we do ask the hard hitting questions quote unquote But we're not just you know blindly slinging arrows at the last meter and trying to get laughs. There is an absolute point of view and. Yeah and a consideration for who they are because your boss here wrote in his op ed piece. Now that the politicians are playing ball with us in order to appeal to every man the comedians have a new

challenge coming up with a way to make politics funny. I'm not pulling your punches while knowing that next week the butt of all your jokes will be sitting right next to you his or her staff having prepared some cutting comebacks. We welcome that but there's a reference to not pulling your punches like comedians think about that. Yeah I don't think that we would pull any punches but I don't think that it gets nasty person all right. I think that it's literally asking questions that our viewers who might be younger and hopefully somewhat educated and feel a little bit cut out from the political process would want to know and having them have to answer them on a couch to a guy who they know is just as smart of them and it's sort of we're being like the emissary for our viewers. And you know Tim Russert doesn't pull any punches when he asks the candidate questions. You know a lot of the the you know Sam Donaldson certainly doesn't George Will certainly doesn't. And I think that you know as we reach particular audience you know it's I think Pew Research Center who when before I wrote the op ed I read a piece that. 50 over 50 percent I forget the exact

number of those under 30. Yet some of their information and not not all but some and sometimes most of the information on candidates from nontraditional outlets. So you know not only is it fun to do but we think it has an importance. Matalin thanks a lot for calling in Take care yourself. Okay Brian thanks bilat went back to work hard to be funny if you're sick right. I know exactly. Just about out of time. With Larry David the CEO of the cable channel Comedy Central. Before you go is do you kill if the politicians come back. You know if your to to on this show. If I'm too tough. They just won't do it again. Well I'm not so sure that I think that's a good question I mean I think that any good politician is going to come back no matter how they did on the first go round I mean it's politics in comedy. They have some similarities in the ending risky business. And I think if you don't do well on Letterman the best thing you want to do is go back on Letterman I mean look at Giuliani he's been on these shows for years and you know he did Saturday Night Live he's made

himself you know a media expose in a media savvy guy. And I think any good politician should be doing the same. You're not going to learn it the first venture out. So what do you think the politicians strategy should be on a comedy show. What are they going to do they try to do they try to deliver a punch line so you know it's a good question I think they should be themselves and if they want to talk about the issues they should talk about the issues if if the host or the interviewer is going to try to take them off track on that they've got to be strong enough to it to weave it back to it with a sense of humor or with a sense of lightness you know because that's the environment of the show they're in I mean they have to know the medium that they're working within. But I don't think they should go in there and try to be comedians I think they should go in there try to be themselves. Well for better or worse the road to the White House passes through late night television including The Daily Show on Comedy Central. Dave nice CEO of that cable channel. Had an op ed on this back in the March 7th New York Times. Thanks for spending the time of the say Rice thank you very much for. This is on the line. Am a 20 and we will stay on the media theme to

close out the week when we come back Entertainment Weekly and WNYC film reviewer Owen glider even talks about this year's Oscar nominees and what they reveal about America by the way if you want to continue the conversation about presidential candidates and comedy. You can do it on our Soapbox web page. Go to WNYC dot org and click on the soapbox. Support for WNYC is provided by Gourmet Garage announcing the publication The Gourmet Garage cookbook by James Beard and award winning authors Mel and Cheryl Lunden in bookstores starting April 7 information at 2 1 2 5 3 5 6 271. WNYC is supported by next Monet dot com featuring thousands of artworks including painting sculpture and works on paper. Next Monday dot com is dedicated to providing an informative context for those seeking to discover enjoy and purchase original contemporary fine art. Coming up at noon it's New York and Company and Leonard low paid is here to tell us what's on today's

program. Start off New York and Company today with horticulturist drug lord. And then who's a poet and Yemeni instrument maker will demonstrate and perform on the road and will take lots of calls for Friday open phones all coming up after the news at noon here on May 20. NYC. Mayor hope you can join me for on the media this weekend we will look at the legacy of Life magazine. Also the marketing of the movie Cider House Rules to the Academy Awards Committee and much more that's on the media. Saturday morning at 7:00 or Sunday afternoon at 4:00 here on Amy 20 and WNYC dot org. Well the Oscars have been found. What may be missing is any film truly worthy of receiving the best picture statuette on Sunday night. WNYC an Entertainment Weekly film critic Owen Leiberman predicts

American Beauty will win best picture even though he calls it a follow masterpiece. But what if this year's Oscars nominees tell us about America and ourselves. Well WNYC an Entertainment Weekly film critic going Leiberman joins us now welcome to On The Line Ellen. Thanks Brian. Let's start with American Beauty why a full masterpiece. Well I just want to go back to the point that I think one of the interesting things about the Oscars is that they really always do reveal something about this guy's done sometimes in very mysterious ways for instance one of the big surprise winners in my life time was back in 1982 when Chariots of Fire took Best Picture I don't think even most of the odds makers had expected that. And what was that about well I think that was very much about. The Reagan era sort of kicking in I mean America was coming through this period that it lasted for about 10 or 15 years. Self-doubt the sense that the country was riddled with corruption now suddenly we had this very old fashioned crowd pleaser and you know riddled with this feeling of glory and triumph and really the very WASPy

version. So in some ways it reflected unintentionally on the moviemakers part. You know what Reagan was symbolizing to the country coming back to a kind of wholesomeness 10 years later the silence of the Lambs really the only Oscar winner in history that has been in the the horror genre at least related to it. And it was a very unusual when that a movie that dark could could take the best picture and in fact all the all the major categories and I don't think it represented that we become a nation of cannibals but I think it reflected the sense that. There was a new sense of violence and turbulence in America. Maybe you know the crack wars the sense that the kind of violence we always associated with urban life was now moving into the suburbs and there was a new anxiety in America in the early 90s reflected by that American Beauty I think will surely take the best picture in a number of other awards even if it doesn't it's clearly the year of American Beauty that says something about who we are in the year 2000 Absolutely I think what that movie

represents is this dysfunctional family drama the sense in that movie that everybody's kind of separate from each other. Well OK we had that before 20 years ago the big dysfunctional family movie won the Oscars ordinary people which knew about American Beauty is that it's kind of the funky Bohemian indie styled version of it you could really call that movie ironic ordinary people. Kevin Spacey his whole sense of a Serb Ignace at the same time the incredible upfront sexuality of him coveting this teenage girl the sense of. That kid played by Wes Bentley being this kind of junior you know post Gen X Bohemian who finds beauty in a sense of plastic. These are the kind of tropes that come to us from indie movies I think they really derive from movies like David Lynch's blue velvet or happiness. But here you have the mainstream version of a movie that makes 100 million dollars. I would argue that American Beauty nothing wrong with those kinds of things going mainstream. I would argue that American Beauty represents in a sense in its aesthetic the homogenization of these themes to making them safe and not so wounding.

And that's the reason that it's the movie of the year. Yeah although I was somewhat depressed by the ascendancy of that picture and found myself somewhat angry at it I mean I'm as critical of suburbia as the next Upper West Side are but I thought that that that whole movie was a cheap shot. Of course there's meaning meaningless amidst affluence in America but I thought that that movie was so by and large a caricature trying to pass itself off as something more profound. Well I agree with you I think it's kind of a sitcom caricature of suburbia that was not photographed to be it's really photographed in this lush way that makes us feel like we're we're watching more ambiguous work of art but in a sense it was the old critique of suburbia we've been seeing since the 60s namely what's the problem. It's materialism it's homogenization. Well I think the movie really Cobbs out is that it gives you this very extreme situation of Kevin Spacey. Thinking really in a demented way that he's going to redeem his life by sleeping with this teenage girl we're watching and we go No way. And by the end of the movie after he's gone through his rediscover the 60s he

realizes Yeah no way that didn't make any sense and suddenly he sees the girl's humanity. He's back to square one but I think the movie instead of taking him to sort of a tragic or cataclysmic confrontation with what he was doing instead it kind of turns him into a saint and sort of a martyr. And then it brings in Chris Cooper at the end to shoot him coming out of nowhere it's as if Travis Bickle at the end of taxi driver instead of confronting his own violence instead of he had come to that point of walking into the apartment with all his guns in a safe had dropped on his head. So I think American Beauty there's something very pat and predictable about it and preconceived. But I think it's important to recognize that to me this is why it was such a big hit is ultimately soothing to the audience as opposed to a movie like Blue Velvet which I think takes you into the darkness a little further. Oh and Leiberman Entertainment Weekly and WNYC film critic is my guest we can take phone calls for him you can talk about American Beauty or anything else having to do with the Oscars or even non nominated films we can be that daring

this week here. 2 1 2 2 6 7 WNYC 2 6 7 9 6 9 2. You know I got one of the heated discussions of the year going on this show. Out of all the things that we talk about in the news on a daily basis a few months ago by asking people who liked and who didn't like Being John Malkovich and whether there was a generational divide because I had seen a little bit of a pattern of younger audiences liking it in older audiences not now you like Spike Jones for Best Director for that film. I really did love the film and I think there is a generational divide in the sense that clearly the big theme in movies last year actually this wasn't in American Beauty it was this theme of identity of people coveting other people's identities. We saw this in Being John Malkovich Boys Don't Cry The Talented Mr. Ripley this deep sense in all these sorts of movies of people wanting to be somebody else. I watched all these movies and thought What is this about. I think the most profound excavation of it is really in Being John Malkovich. And I think the movie in some ways was wrongly interpreted by the media as being simply about celebrity. Yes the people in that

movie want to be John Malkovich but clearly it's called Being John Malkovich because he's about the most low level celebrity you could find. I think this movie was really about people wanting to be. Other other sexes other identities other experiences to somehow get out of themselves. And it reflected I think that we all now carry in a media age bits and pieces of other people and other experiences and other movies around inside ourselves and they feel as real to us as the souls we were born with. And I think that that movie sort of tapped into that in that surreal Alice in Wonderland way. I love that movie. But I might have been confused by the reviewers who I had read before I went to see it because because they did say it was a cutting meditation on the cult of celebrity in America and that's what I was ready to see when I walked in. And I thought it was a great story but it never did quite explore the celebrity angle and didn't even really have a message except that old cliche that all our

lives you know our real lives are just as good as our fantasy lives if only we would appreciate them. Well I think that the celebrity angle like I said was over interpreted another movie I would throw into the mix that I think was profoundly about this identity question was man on the moon. I think the my favorite movie of the year and very underrated a lot of people said it was just Jim Carrey doing Andy Kaufman's greatest hits but actually I think it was a great movie about showbiz and I don't think the point of the movie was that Andy Kaufman didn't have a self. I think it showed you a man who very much had a self but ironically he found his self. In performance. In other words doing the same kind of thing that the characters and Being John Malkovich did finding themselves in John Malkovich his brain or the kind of thing that the Matt Damon character did in the town with Mr. Ripley finding himself by becoming this. Guy that he idolized and was in love with man on the moon. To me it was a great movie for being less comforting than American Beauty. And in a sense raising the same question because the Kevin Spacey character in American Beauty so comes to

grips with himself by the end of the film that it is Pat I think use that word. You see and the half minute and a half and is played by Jim Carrey never quite come to grips with himself. And it makes I think it makes the astute moviegoer look at themselves and think God what is that part of me that I haven't really quite figured out that I struggle with in the recesses of my soul every day and never quite work out and we all have those places. I think there was something kind of disquieting underlying that film I think in a way whether you like man on the moon or not depending on how you responded to the Tony Clifton character who's really the greatest character in the film. And the movie really leaves you with this sublime image of the last thing you see is not Andy Kaufman it's Tony Clifton his alter ego and this is after Andy has died. And yet it's such a vivid alter ego that as we watch Tony perform this. Hideous Vegas number we feel like Andy Kaufman is still alive this personality is absolutely as real to us as Andy's was. I think there was something tremendously haunting about

that. Clearly both the press and the audience didn't share my view though. Let's take some phone calls for Owen Labrie and WNYC an Entertainment Weekly film reviewer 2 1 2 2 6 7 w and y c 2 6 7 9 6 9 2 or send email to on the line at WNYC dot org. Raymond in Brooklyn you're on the line. Well first I want to disagree with you about American Beauty. I don't think the ending with Pat. I think it's prefigured bad to kids watching the movie of the bag flying around and. And I think that the real movie I gree that that movie is one of caricature and everything but that was fine I thought the movie was sort of a cartoon and that had the ending was prefigured also by the fact the man says at the beginning that he's dead and that you know he's going to die at some point. I also thought that his his sort of realisation revelation whatever you want to call it near the end of the movie was really what the movie was was about all along about him sort of discovering real

joy about the whole movie was about him trying to find some way to have joy some way to to have. You know a fullness in life and that he finally got it. So I didn't see a ending with Pat at all I thought it was also a great movie and the performances I thought there were some of the best performances of the year. I also want to say that to me the Boehner nomination is Cider House Rules which I think is what most boring uninteresting movies I've ever seen I think the only reason it's getting so much hype and being so pushed by Hollywood and I'm as pro-choice as anybody is the pro-choice agenda. The movie I think that was on Hollywood you know and it's back to the good you know sort of good movie when the movie itself is Oh and well I mean I couldn't I couldn't agree with you more about Cider House Rules I think it is the most you know gruesomely overhyped Oscar nominee in a decade. I didn't get anything about this movie whether it was Tobey Maguire gawking or the incredibly controversial pro-choice message or the fact that frankly the movie seemed kind of racist to me so I cleaned it. And I'm completely in

agreement with that. And as far as American Beauty I mean I agree with you to the degree that I actually think American Beauty adds up very nicely on its own terms I was maybe being a little more down on it that I meant to and that I think it is a seductive film and probably to me the best of the nominees. But where I actually think it falls short of the true power it's trying to achieve is that there is something about the way it protects the Kevin Spacey character in the end from actually being too dark or getting himself too dirty. I think what that movie needed to do quite frankly was to have him sleep with that girl and then realize that what he had done was appalling that he had not seen her humanity which is his sin in the film he can only see the surface of things. But by having him step back at the end to the point and just say oh I recognize her humanity I won't actually do anything wrong. It's like he never really jumps in that swimming pool he never has the confrontation with his own demons that I think. Is what true tragedy is about and would let his moment of joy and revelation in the end

really have a lasting power so I think the movie actually cops out and is very safe there is something very sanctimonious about the ending of it but I have to admit it certainly adds up it's a very well-made sanctimonious movie. Raymond thank you for your call I also thought the movie was sexist by the way that the character of the wife never catches a break. And even though you know the Kevin Spacey character was as responsible for this life that they made together as she was he catches all the breaks. Well I agree with that I mean I'm focusing on the Spacey character because he's the center of the movie and also because I think this is the most interesting flaw but clearly here is this movie that presents this flawed hero in such a sympathetic light and Kevin Spacey is performance really is wonderful He's a great actor. Then at the same time it is the story of a broken marriage and you have the Annette Benning character clearly written as such a shrill caricature. And I wasn't necessarily offended by that but it raised a question in a movie of this ambition why the imbalance Why are you giving us these one dimensional this kind of sitcom glibness

and the mystery to me quite frankly it's that America at large could embrace that vision as a great work of art and everything go. And in New Jersey around the lines. Good morning. I'm 43 years old I don't know if that qualifies as the older audience but I love John Malkovich. And I thought it was ultimately a horror film the moment near the end. I think I'm giving anything away considering how long ago it was released when Malcolm Rich's own personality finally surfaces and he he in desperate Joy talks about how he's finally back just revealed to me. Jesus how horrible this has been for this man and that's ultimately you know that he says he was the victim of the selfishness of others. My favorite film of the year didn't get hardly got any notice nomination wise which was the straight story the straight story is really a marvelous film and I think it it almost everyone I've talked to who seen it loves it this is David Lynch's movie it is. It's kind of his anti Blue Velvet it was his

g rated Disney film Richard Farnsworth in it I think gives the best performance by an actor yes year and I think the single most lived in portrait of old age ever seen in American film I mean there's just something haunting about it as he takes this lawn tractor odyssey to visit his brother. And it's a film of astonishing purity and yet it's a very quiet movie and more and more it seems like we're in a cinematic landscape where quiet films. I don't have that much of a chance to catch on because they just can't compete with the noise of movies like The big action films that dominate the headlines or even something like American Beauty which is show showy or give it which is clearly a funhouse ride of a movie although I think a very great one. The other movie that I love this year Boys Don't Cry has clearly gotten so much attention. Hilary Swank is a front runner to win the Oscar for it and yet it hasn't really made very much money so these quiet films are really competing in a in a landscape that's just overrun with hype.

Thanks for your call at Christine in Connecticut you're on the line. Hi I just want to make a point before I make my actual point that they scripted American Beauty they will have to have a basic character with a girl and if they think that while hating it. But the point I wanted to make was that what I didn't like it well to have that was I think the Oscar nominee doesn't come from a political point of pro pro Hollywood but from a marketing machine at Miramax that pushed that through a film that I thought was completely unnoticed and courted by Peter as well because of the content with South Park which was brilliant and how it skewered the MPAA and it's a subject that doesn't you know doesn't appeal to anybody that's giving out awards. Well they are going to acknowledge South Park on the Academy Awards Sunday in that Robin Williams is set to sing the song Blame Canada from it that's nominated in that sure to be the high point although I'm actually disappointed that that will probably be funny intentionally as opposed to the old

Rob Lowe snow white numbers which I actually much prefer I'm kind of I'm kind of sorry that the Oscars now have the good taste to have cut those numbers out. But yes you're right I mean Cider House Rules is really more a marketing story than anything else and it's funny the whole film world now it's so reported in the media culture like by my magazine and other magazines that it's wearing its skeleton on the outside I think more people are aware of Miramax is an ad campaign and just the way they pushed the Cider House Rules in the movie itself in a sense the movie is an afterthought I think they did essentially. You know by that nomination just by getting cassettes into the hands of every single Academy member and there's really there's nothing wrong with that but I don't think it's a deserving film and in general I don't think the best picture nominees this year reflect the best of the awards I think the academy somehow feels that they have to give it to these big Hollywood movies like The Green Mile. Clearly the nominations for Boys Don't Cry and Being John Malkovich in the other categories indicate that these films were appreciated in Hollywood but for the best picture nominations there's a lot

of insecurity going on I think that the Academy members realize that the the indie world is making these inroads into Hollywood and on some level that's where the talent is coming from but it's also threatening and so they nominate films like The Green Mile to say well these kinds of crowd pleasers are what movies are still all about actually movies are really on two tracks now the indie world and the and the mainstream world. Christine thanks for your call. Why does it work and we're going to be talking more about this on the media this week in this marketing. Cider House Rules to those with votes in the Motion Picture Academy but other people with a vow with the ballots that shallow and manipulable. Well it's not that what's changed the landscape is video cassettes. I mean Woody Allen actually has a policy that he won't allow a movie of his like in this case Sweet and Lowdown to be seen on video cassette if you're an Academy member you have to go off to a screening room and see it. And a lot of people are not going to do that the last time he won best picture. That's right. So video cassettes are really what it's about but the key is getting the video cassettes in the hands of the Academy members and that's what Miramax does it's not even that they spend so much money on ads they make

sure with their publicists that cassette of the Cider House Rules each and every one of the 50 500 Academy members hands or however many it is. And it works because you're given the cassette you'll you'll sit home and watch Hollywood needs campaign finance reform. Later John McCain Robin of Long Island you're on the line with Ellen Leiberman. Yeah well you guys have got one thing going to the movies to be entertained and we like to see a movie like Sixth Sense because it was extremely entertaining. And I know people who've seen it many many times because. Each and every time it's great. Also nominated for best picture but it was it was a best picture. I wish every day people don't think about the marketing campaign and we actually found that movie like American Beauty to be not entertaining and kind of sick. But Robin this is an issue show if you want that. Go watch TV. Well look clearly the Sixth Sense is an entertaining movie I was entertained by and I think it's well made. It is a well-made movie. I think it's sort of ironic that in Hollywood this year The Sixth Sense is

being treated as an example of not simply a word of mouth hit which very much was but of the new spirit of adventurousness in audiences because I actually don't think it's that adventurous movie adventurous movie. It ultimately is a high concept movie and the high concept was I see dead people I mean this kid seeing dead people. I think the weakness of the film or the limitation of it the reason that for all its popularity I don't necessarily think it will be thought of as a classic like Rosemary's Baby or even Silence Of The Lambs is that when you think back on the movie the whole idea that the Willis character I'm giving this away now but everyone seen the movie is a ghost and doesn't know it well. This would be blown the second he had a single conversation with anybody I mean nobody goes through two or three days of their life without talking to somebody else. So there's a kind of contrivance built into the movie. It doesn't keep it from being anything less than a very watchable experience but I think there was a sort of a kind of a slick high concept element to the sixth sense and I think that's one of the reasons why it's nominated for the best picture but it probably wouldn't win.

Now. When Because every day people like that too much. Robin thanks for your call to call again and let's sneak in deadly in Manhattan you're on the line can you do it in about 30 seconds. I can try. I've just wanted to make a comment about American Beauty that I thought that it really didn't take emotional risks and it looks great but ultimately it was really empty and if you want to see a movie that's sort of like it that is truly truly daring. Go and see Todd's salons is happiness from the previous year because there is a story in which a man really really does have to face his demons and manages to create a sympathetic portrait of a pedophile who you know loves his son and is truly the best father that he can be and I thought it was much more calm. Next an American Beauty did not get the notice but it's there and well I agree with you completely on that I think happiness is a great movie and the cutting edge of it is that it actually does make this pedophile sympathetic without in any way excusing him exactly or his crimes. But it's interesting to note that happiness was not a huge success even within the

independent film art market for instance it was the second big film by Todd Salon's who'd made welcome to the Dollhouse I made less money than that. But I think what American Beauty represents is all this sort of dark dysfunction not being dealt with ultimately in an honest way. But being Tell as another element in design I mean the movie is really very comforting about these things. Owen Leiberman WNYC an Entertainment Weekly film critic I know where you'll be on Sunday night. Absolutely. And probably you too. That's right thanks a lot for joining us as a lot of fun. Thank you. And that's it for today's on line do remember to join me for on the media this weekend if you can tomorrow morning at 7:00 or Sunday afternoon at 4:00 and then back here Monday morning for us on the line Bill Moyers will be here Monday. Also Sun Microsystems chief scientist Bill Joy on whether microchips might become our Frankenstein on the line is produced by Marion Carlson the assistant producer is Amy pro and we had help today from Sara Elsa's have a great weekend everyone I'm Brian Mann.

This is WNYC am a twenty New York it's 12 noon time for New York and Company here is Leonard loped. Thank you Brian good afternoon everybody and we start off New York in company today with author culturist broadsword Dall. And we'll be taking lots of calls on how to make your garden or just that little window box plant grow and then buy Dobby a poet and Yemeni instrument maker will be here to demonstrate and perform on the ode and talk about the unique music of Yemen and we'll end the show with our end of the week open phone segment. We have lots of tickets to give away today so there's lots of reasons to stay with us here until 2 o'clock on New York and Company on a May 20. WNYC online at WNYC died or

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