PowerPoint; Lani Guinier, Black Farmers

7. Black farmers were losing their land at a staggering rate of 9 ,000 acres per week. What can black Americans and other concerned Americans do to help? This time, on PowerPoint, a hard row to hoe. The crisis of the black American farmer, our guests, include North Carolina Congresswoman Eva Clayton, Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney of Georgia, and Raymond Brown, a black farmer from North Carolina, who share his family story. And you can participate in this discussion by calling the PowerPoint hotline at 1 -800 -989 -8255. That's 1 -800 -989 -8255. And, call a friend. Tell them PowerPoints on the air. Our exploration of the problems of black farmers in America begins in a moment. But first, PowerPoint news with Verna

Avery Brown. This is PowerPoint news and information to empower the community. I'm Verna Avery Brown. President Clinton says the Northern Ireland Peace Accord is an Easter gift for the Irish and Irish Americans, but he warned it may not immediately end the violence. The pain and hatred of so many years says Clinton cannot and will not be washed away in one weekend. Attorneys representing African Americans who filed a class action suit against Amtrak last week for charges of racial discrimination and hiring and promotional practices are hoping others, especially white employees, will come forth with information. Attorney Warren Kaplan of the Washington Lawyers Committee, which represented blacks in successful lawsuits against Denny's restaurant and Avis Renta Carr. We don't have the smoking gun yet, but we're looking for it. We think there are likely to be a number of people, given the history and the pervasiveness of the discrimination that we've seen. We think it's almost inevitable that there are a lot of people,

highly placed people, perhaps presently with Amtrak or perhaps former employees of Amtrak who have left because they were discouraged and disappointed by what they saw who are in a position to provide important evidence to us and we're hopeful that we'll have. Amtrak employee Hakim Abdullah of Newark, Delaware says he trained for a position to work Amtrak equipment, but recalls the opposition he ran into from his white supervisor when he applied for the higher pay assignment. I was told by then supervisor that they were short of bus drivers, and I was qualified to do that particular job, but I was not on the bus driving roster. The supervisor told me that he needed drivers, and I told him, well, I have my qualification, I would like to be qualified on a piece of equipment. He told me, no, you're going to drive a goddamn bus because we need drivers. I said, I'm not going to drive the bus. I said, I'm going to be qualified, I'd like to be qualified as an equipment operator. He said, if you don't want to do

what I say, you don't want to drive the bus, then you take your black ass home. The class action suit is seeking damages upwards of $100 million, Amtrak representative Clifford Black. Amtrak has a zero tolerance policy for any discriminatory practices, either in hiring, promotion, or the workplace. Amtrak has always worked hard to make sure it's hiring and promotion practices are fair and equitable for all applicants and employees, and that our selection process is open to people of all races, religions, and ethnic origins. The suit targets Amtrak's engineering department along the Northeast Corridor, which has zero African -Americans in high -level management positions. Democratic Republic of the Congo President, LaVonca Billa, has reaffirmed his commitment to human rights. That's according to OAU Secretary General Salim Ahmed Salim, who met with Cabilla Friday. Salim says Cabilla is committed to the protection of human rights, and Salim says the international community and the OAU have a responsibility to help. Critics say, since toppling former dictator Mabutus Acesseko last May, Cabilla has done little to improve the

country's human rights record. He forced opposition leader Etienne Chisakati into exile and banned all political activity, as well as human rights groups accused of waging political campaigns. The 24 -year -old woman accusing Washington Wizards stars Juwan Howard and Chris Weber of Sexual Assault during a party at Howard's home has been arrested twice in the last six months, with her 46 -year -old boyfriend, active violent domestic disputes at their posh home in a wealthy suburb of Connecticut. According to the Washington Post, Trumbull Connecticut Police say the woman whose identity is being protected because of the possible sexual assault against her, cut her boyfriend's face and arm with a kitchen knife. The woman's father is quoted as saying, everybody has arguments that has nothing to do with this. Angered by the player's denials, the father said, they know they did it. She's small, weighs about 120 pounds. Those guys must be 6 '6", 200 and something pounds. They make millions of dollars and they think they can do anything. Either Howard or Weber have been charged with a crime

and both say the charge is a ludicrous. The woman has not yet chosen to speak publicly. The Chris Weber, Juwan Howard Saga, has struck a chord with Yasmin Shira as the editor of Mad Rhytham's magazine, as we hear in this PowerPoint news commentary. If I hear about another professional athlete being involved in an assault scandal, sexual or otherwise, I'm going to start taking it personally. Michael Irvin of the Dallas Cowboys, Steve Brennan of the New England Patriots, Juwan Howard and Chris Weber both of the Washington Wizards and the list goes on, have all been involved in some sort of bruhaha with the opposite sex where the woman ended up screaming foul. In the heat of the call, these players' reputations, finances and jobs all become on the line. What my question is, how do these women who scream foul get all the

access to these professional athletes in the first place? I mean, really, I'm a female journalist with a legitimate reason to approach professional athletes and half the time I can't get the time of day and I'm credentialed personnel no less. It seems to me that these professional athletes have guards to keep out the wrong people. Instead of submitting written requests to interview these athletes, maybe I should be hanging out in the player parking lot with some cleavage showing and, of course, my kilowatt smile. Then I'd be able to not only access their professional lives, but their personal lives, their houses and their luxury vehicles. Heck, I'd even have the opportunity to plant drugs and drug paraphernalia. So you see, when I hear about these professional athletes getting caught out there with a woman

whom they didn't even know, I don't feel remorse. But I feel the need to ask them to consider not only who you are keeping out, but who are you letting in? This is Yasmin Shiraz of Mad Rhytham's magazine. Powerpoint News welcomes the perspective of Yasmin Shiraz and others with responsible viewpoints on social, economic or political issues affecting our community. For Powerpoint News and Information to Empower the Community, I'm Verna Avery -Brown. Welcome back, I'm Kenneth Walker. Given the

historical connection in America between land ownership, wealth and power, it's disturbing in the extreme, that over the past 10 years alone, 94 % of all black farmers have been displaced. It would be one thing if the black farmer's bad luck could be traced to Mother Nature, which can often be cruel to all farmers, but instead of Mother Nature, the major culprit appears to have been Uncle Sam. Over 450 black farmers have joined a class action suit against the Department of Agriculture. Almost as many have filed separate complaints against the department, alleging that loans and other services were denied them simply because of their race. If the present rate of loss continues, blacks may wind up virtually landless, very early, in the next century, and that's our focus this hour on Powerpoint as we take a look at the plight of the black farmer. You can join this discussion by calling our toll -free hotline at 1 -800

-989 -8255, that's 1 -800 -989 -8255 to help guide our exploration. We're pleased to be joined on the phone by North Carolina Congresswoman Eva Clayton. We expect later in the broadcast to be joined by Cynthia McKenney, a congresswoman from Georgia, and we're also joined by Raymond Brown, a black farmer from North Carolina. Everyone, welcome. Hello. Hello. Welcome to Powerpoint. I'm delighted to be here. Congresswoman Clayton, perhaps I could start with you. Can you give our listeners some sense of the background of this class action suit and the troubles that black farmers have been having with the Agriculture Department? Well, it has been going on far longer than the particular suit would indicate, but some of the farmers really in the suit as well as individual complaints have had 15 or 20 years of a reason to know that something is going wrong

with the U .S .D. in terms of their programs of our services. We have had individual cases in North Carolina to be followed as long as 17, 18 years. Let me just give you some perspective. In 1995, there was a G .A. on it, which said they looked at the number of loans there as being made in about 20 cases, and out of those they found a disproportionate number of black farmers being denied those loans. Then immediately following that, there was what we call the Journal of Invaluation Report of the Civil Rights Department in the U .S .D. again found that out of 75 cases that they were having discrimination. But when those were compared with what had been going on for a number of years you found in 1965, almost 30 years ago, you

had the same thing going on. So, what we have found has been a pattern of recent investigation as well as older investigation where Congress has been coming up or some entity of government has been coming up, even the Civil Rights Commission said that what is happening in U .S .D. would bring the extinction of farmers if they continue to deny them access to programs and access to the loans program. Farmers got tired of that, and finally they organized, and I think their organization brought public outrage and attention to that. And finally, the Secretary himself ordered an investigation and is that report which is referred to the crack report when you add an onslaught of about 400 individual cases file.

And in the last six months you now have had another 400 and I get 50 cases filed in a class action. So, there have been memory reports, this has been going on for many, many years, and many individuals have been disenfranchised, lost their lands in the process. What is the status of the class action suit, is it nearing a trial date, or are they still in preliminary status or what? Well, they are in some instances, I think the court has agreed to hear their case and are on a special issue of the statute limitation within the next two weeks. But they have been gathering more cases as they have been making the call for people who are similarly situated. The individual cases now that have been filed, I think about 20 of them have been settled. 120 of those 400 may have been dismissed. Only about 20 has gotten any financial

compensation. The difficult to be finding recently is that the Justice Department has issued a ruling that the statute of limitations may bar many of, or if not most of these farmers who have legitimately complained from getting any funds. What they are saying is that these complainants filed their complaint after the statute of limitation had won, and I just remind you that many of these farmers filed the cases thinking they were doing the right thing and found that there was no attention given to their cases. In fact, the civil rights investigation on had been dismantled, so essentially their cases were received and ignored. When they reactivated their cases, mean after the secretary had made this crack report visible and sent off the cry that anyone feeling they had been discriminated had a right to

make a complaint, they found now, they are finding now, that the statute of limitations may bar them. So part of what the crack action has to have happened for them is even the judge says that the statute of limitations will be set aside in this special case, or we in Congress will have legislation that we can be successful in and have in the statute of limitations set aside. Otherwise, many of these farmers will not get there due if they should. Thank you so much. Mr. Raymond Brown, your farmer in North Carolina. Yes, sir. What do you farm? I grow several different crops, mainly it's grain, mainly that men are father grow, we grow corn, wheat, soybean, and we also grow a small amount of produce, mainly cabbage. How long is, I mean how many acres are you farming down there? Right now we're

farming probably approximately 125 acres. We've been having problems as far as getting loan for the last, I won't say three years, so we have decreased in the acreage. We have been up as high as 200 and 80 or something like that, but when we started having problems with getting loans or whatnot, we sort of had to cut back. How long has farming been in your family? Well, I'm 31 years old, my father is 59 and as long as I can remember, my grandfather farm before my father's, I mean it's been around, I won't say somewhere around about 100 years. Give us some sense of just what sort of problems that you and farmers you know encounter with the Department of Agriculture, I mean take us from the beginning. What happens when you decide you need to contact them and then how does it go from there? Okay, basically I'm going to speak, basically I want to, about myself, my house situation in the name of my father, which is Raymond singing, I'm Raymond June,

all right. My father had been working for this farmer for these people for some 35 years or more, all right. He had been with this farmer for 35 years, that when their older people died, the children came in, he worked for them for say five or six years, the farmers, they started getting mad off and things changed. So he decided, we decided to grow up and pretty much purchase our own equipment or whatnot things to that nature, so I have a full time job, I work full time and my father, that's all he's ever done is farm, so when we first decided to farm, we went to farmers on the administration here in our local office, which has been said the past time, North Carolina, and the officer come out and told, I mean the loan officer that come out and told me, so Mr. Brown said, when it's looking, said you have pretty much a one credit set, our organization is pretty much set up for people that have bad credit or can't get, you

know, or in a situation where they can't get help anywhere else, that in return, that's when I first started encountering my first problem when I left there and went to a, I want to say what they call it, I believe it's East Carolina farm credit, and we went there and borrowed money, and the money that we borrowed, I mean they set you up for some type of plan, like say everything you borrowed, you borrowed four to five thousand dollars, they wanted all back in one year's time, and like I said with me when my father first started, we had no equipment, we was just beginners farmer, and that really got us in a bind, and we've been pretty much messed up every cent. Well then in terms of the agriculture department specifically, I mean this was not an agriculture department loan, you didn't get that loan, right? No sir, we've never really, you know, qualified for agriculture loan, because like I said earlier, when I first went the guy I updated, he had told me, so Mr. Brown

said, y 'all have pretty much A1 credits, and our organization is pretty much set up for people to have bad credit or even have granted to some hardship or something to that nature or whatnot. Well since you've run into this hardship, has there been a program available to you at the agriculture department? What happened since we ran into this hardship, and then my father sat down, got back with the same agent, we sat down and done the, worked out this loan package, when it first started things were looking good, I mean we sat down, we had calculated as far as what the cost and what we needed and all this stuff, things were looking good. And next thing we know, I come receiving some more stuff from the mail saying, well Mr. Brown, this here, this here won't cash flow, it won't, you know, it won't work out due to your year history or, or, or any, you know, something to that nature, this here won't cash flow out. So I said, okay, I said that, Mr. Smith another plan,

so basic member falls for a minute two plan, which this was in 97, I believe it was, and the guy in the agent said, well, he said, well, it's based the bottom line, so anything y 'all really submit said it's not going to cash flow out because of what you're saying, your year history, I mean, it's just, it's just like I really don't feel like I know for a fact that it's not, it's not fair. I mean, it's just like if I go in with a plan, a super plan at a workout, cash flow out or whatnot, they'll come up with some clothes to say why it won't work out, I mean, just like last year we went through the appeals process, know that for my appeal and everything, so I mean, my father got together and we talked, we were supposed to go meet the appeals board, and it was just like, I mean, if we go, we put not more money, take a money on our pocket to go to these means and put it much, it all lies in this, in your, in the guy that sets up your loan here in the local office, I mean, it's basically pretty much what he said, if he says it's not going to work out, I mean, it's just like you're putting good money to bad money, so

it's just, it's really hard. I mean, like I said, I could really see if it was, if it was like something that, if we were the type that go out here, like most black farmers, they're not the type of farmer that go out here and really take money and just say, just go live high on the home, so to speak. I mean, if we go buy money, we always try to be, is, is keep the loan as those reposts became, we don't get a whole lot of money for living expenses or whatnot, and whether it returns to your white farmer, he might go out here and hear a bar enough to save my self -esteem, so if I got a job making 30 ,000 loan, he'll say, okay, I'm going to quit that job and I'm going to go out here and farm for a time, I'll just in return bar that 30 ,000 loan from the, I'll encourage you to part my tech care, my family as well as what I need to operate my farm. I just feel like it's, it's, it's, it's really a lot that, that needs to be, you know, look then too. I mean, people just don't realize how, you know, how bad it is, it's really bad. Have you filed

a complaint or joined the suit? At this point in time, I haven't really filed a complaint as far as the agriculture department, but I have, me and my father have gotten an attorney, which at a local, local level, which we had registered some complication with a local granular, a granular company that we had done business with that had pretty much mistreated or discriminated against us or something like that. And that's where we are in the process of filing suit against them. Congresswoman Clayton. I would just say that he should then be, go ahead and file a complaint. This is not uncommon, however. Now, every complaint that we may think is not, you know, in the end may not be as maritalist, but what he's, describing to you is not uncommon. Unfortunately, you can turn people down for one reason or another if you want to turn them down. And you can find a legitimate way to turn them down. The first part, when he said that he was over the threshold, his

finances, you still need to be financially worthy to get, but it's from a phone. The idea that his credit was too good, doesn't really make sense, that doesn't stand out. Now, it made me that his income level was too high, and I doubt whether Mr. Brown income level was too high, otherwise he would need to borrow the money, first place. So in many instances, you're thrown back and forth between paying very high interest rates. And when you get that money, you can't amortize it in one year. And that's the adventure small, the small form of a program on the USDA. You can amortize a $45 ,000 or $85 ,000 over several years rather than have to pay it back out of profit. We're talking with Congresswoman Eva Clayton and farmer Ray Brown in North Carolina about the hard voter hoe for black farmers. You can join this discussion by calling our tow -free hotline at 1 -800 -989 -8255.

That's 1 -800 -989 -8255. Congresswoman Clayton has there been any kind of a look or even hearings up on the hill that take a look at when you look at loans and subsidies and technical assistance and all the other services provided by the Agriculture Department, just what the black farmers access to that is? Well, there has been a couple of hearings, one in terms of a bill I introduce to address the issue of discrimination because the bill has not been actually scheduled for vote, but at least in the committee of agriculture there has been a look at what has happened and what is continually to happen. And the black farmers came in themselves, we had also women, white women who were there, Indians who came in to talk about just their treatment when they go to the farm service agency or the loan committee trying to get

loans and what has been their experience in their payback or their failure, or the failure of the department to be understanding when they have to refinance their loans or if they have disaster. We also had a bill that we introduced just about credit, and because in the 1996 farm bill, we said that when this Congress said that if you ever had, back then, what? That meant you were barred from ever barring any money from farmer's home again, and that is far more difficult than we have in the private sector because if I get in trouble with my mortgage and get too much behind, that doesn't mean I can't buy another house. If I get in trouble with my credit card, I can still get another credit card. So why should farmers themselves be barred if they happen to have difficulty because of a famine or because of a disaster

or flood, or even if they had a downturn in the private control or commodity. Sometimes these farmers do have difficulty and they need to refinance their loans. How much of this problem you may think Congresswoman Clayton is attributable to the local good old boy culture. A lot of it. It could help us out with that. Explain that. Well, the farm committee is where you go to the farm office to make your application. There is actually committee, a committee is called the farm committee that actually reviews your loan, and that farm committee is actually neglected by the farming community. But if that committee is not representative of those farmers in that area, the likelihood for them to be sensitized to a minority farmer, those women farmers, or to the

difficult low wealth farmers, it means that they will not be as objective in making those long applications or seeing the cash floor, giving that person's financial plan the same consideration as they give the people in the club. A lot to be said about. Who is on those committees? Not enough minorities on those committees. Not enough women on those committees. Very cute Indians at all. We're coming up on 29 minutes after the hour. I know you have to leave this PowerPoint news. We'll keep check with you on new developments. Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney joins us when we come back. Internet services for PowerPoint are provided by World African Network, offering news, information, sports, and entertainment for African and African -American communities. Through broadband and new media technologies. The Web address is www .wainonline .com.

That's www .wainonline .com. You're listening to Public Radio and this is PowerPoint with Kenneth Walker. Welcome back. We're talking about the hard roto hoe that is the plight of the Black farmer. You can join our discussion by calling our tow -free hotline at 1 -800 -989 -8255. That's 1 -800 -989 -8255. Congresswoman Eva Clayton has been

good enough to extend her stay with us and we want to thank her for that. We're now joined by a Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney from Georgia. Welcome, Congresswoman. Hi, how are you? Good to talk to you again. How are you? Congresswoman McKinney, I understand from a recent press release this week that you're not pretty happy with what the Clinton administration is doing about Black farmers. No, I'm not happy at all. In fact, I believe that if this administration were really serious in dealing with the plight of the minority farmers because it's not just Black farmers who have been negatively impacted by USDA policies and practices, that the administration would have settled this a long time ago. The administration has its disposal, the budget process, which we as members of Congress have as well. If the administration

were serious, they would have included in their budget requests for USDA the requisite number of dollars to settle these claims. Or it's my understanding that there is a fund that is already established from which these farmers could be paid if the political will to do so with there. So unfortunately, I think that the whole issue of the statute of limitations is a roof that has been set up to shift attention away from the administration and establish a whole new set of requirements. The equivalent of moving the goalpost back even further, for Black farmers and minority farmers who are being asked to delay justice because the United States government failed to act at the time that these complaints were filed with the federal government in the first place. As

I understand it, this interpretation by the Clinton administration on the statute of limitations may take away any right to appeal. It might also kill the class action suit itself. How would it do that? It's my understanding from the lawyers who are involved indeed that may be the case that they have to go through an entirely new bureaucratic process. One of the things that also is a problem is that administrative process has been set up by USDA. Good people were put in charge of that process but because they faced institutional racism within USDA, within DOJ and elsewhere within the Clinton administration, they've since left and discussed. Basically, what we're seeing is a shell game. A shell game that

focuses attention on USDA, then that attention is shifted to DOJ, then that attention is shifted over to the White House, then that attention is shifted over to the courts, and then that attention is shifted back over to Congress. I say stop the shell game and appropriate some money. We as members of Congress, my sister colleague, I'm sorry, I didn't hear the first part of the show, but she sits on the Agriculture Committee. I used to be a member of the Agriculture Committee in the time when I represented rural part of Georgia. Now, this has become an issue near and dear to me simply because I've got farmers who are marching in front of the White House, who are about to demonstrate before the Department of Justice, how long are we going to allow this shell game to be played? Well, one would think that the Clinton administration would be amenable

to suggestions from people like yourself in Congresswoman Clayton, and that you could get some equitable resolution to all this. What seems to be the problem? I think the problem is that you've got people inside the administration who are not on board with dealing with this issue, just as you have in all administrations, different factions, different wings, different points of view, and different opinions, and the president may come out with a statement of policy, a desire, a vision, and everyone may not share that vision. And so you have people who need to be brought onto the reservation as it were, and they are not there. I think Congresswoman Clayton, you were about to interject something? Well, I was about to say, I think there is, she's right, there's a different opinion within the whole of the administration, if you take the Justice Department as part of that administration, because the Justice

Department has said, emphatically, well, the ruling is said was that the farmers were precluded from the factual limitation was in effect, and therefore it would preclude many of those complaints which one part of the administration encouraged to be filed, because you didn't have 400 in some cases filed before you had the crack before you had filed, you had those filed after. Now, the reason why you had so many filed after the second time, because many of them had filed them before thinking that they had cases filed, they found out they didn't. So you had this onslaught of cases being filed individually, and then the client's action, which is now I guess been going a little less than a year, well, if some of these things have been going on for 16, 17 years, certainly the factual limitation had filed,

had expired before they filed. But the point, the investigation arm had been eliminated. How were these farmers to know that, unless they found that out through this investigation? And I don't think it's the responsibility of the farmers to find out that the claims that they filed hadn't been acted upon by USDA, it's the fault of USDA, it's the fault of the United States government. And so now you're going to ask the victims to bear the brunt again of something that is entirely the fault and in the hands of the United States government. In fact, you're absolutely right, they are being victimized twice. First, the cases were not dealt with as it should have been 15, 14, 10 years ago. And now that you have now come forth and filed again, you say, oh well, sorry, too bad, you were discriminated against, but too bad you will not get any money.

That seems unacceptable for a country who says that they want to have justice in the country. We're talking with Congresswomen, Eva Clayton of North Carolina and Cynthia McKinney of Georgia, as well as Raymond Brown, a black farmer in North Carolina about the plight of the black farmer. It's a hard road to hoe. You can join this discussion by calling our toll free hotline at 1 -800 -989 -8255. That's 1 -800 -989 -8255. We're going to go to the phones now and speak with Lucille and Montgomery, Alabama, with station WVAS. Welcome to PowerPoint, Lucille. Good evening. Three brief questions. Farmas, every since there has been an agricultural department, have black farmers have had the land full colds by banks that made loans to them. What are their chances of getting back this property that was stolen? The second question, are you aware of the black farmers taking that plight to the UN?

And finally, I'd like to know when people like the Democrats, I am a Democrat too, but when you're going to stop making excuses for Clinton, you know, it's other people in the administration. Even Lenny Griniv let him off the hook with that same argument as other people in the administration. It's Clinton's phone in this. There was Clinton who told Janet Reno to have the bill pass that take up the case that said you can stop motorists anywhere, the Baltimore case. So I'm tired of you defending Clinton and finally what really can be done for these farmers who may be 50 years ago had their land taken. Thank you so much, Lucille, for all of those questions and comments and the best to you in Montgomery. Before you to take a crack at that question, I do want to pass on Lanny Griniv who was here in our first hour, asked me to tell you both that she said hello. But in the order that the lady raised, farmers who lost land either because of previous action by

USDA or private banks, is there any hope for them? Well, I think there is some hope. I spoke last night before the national black political scientist organization. And while there I met a farmer, I believe from Virginia or maybe he was from up your way, Eva in North Carolina, who informed me about a program that is being started to catalog all of the black land. This is a political science project to catalog this black land. And first of all, know what was there, what is there, and then come up with a program to try and deal with it. I know that there was a black land loss project that has

saved some land in the South. I know they've saved some in rural Georgia. There's a land loss program from the law school. I don't know how far back it goes if it goes 50 years, but I suppose it could do the title search and find out if they were closed by, for closure by, private landlord for taxes or by the USDA. But North Carolina Central Law School has one too. What about the caller's second point about the bid before the United Nations? Any news on that? I have not heard that. Cynthia, have you heard that? Yes, I did hear that and I applauded it. But of course, you know, when African -Americans begin to get international, then creates all kinds of problems. It creates all kinds of problems because the international sphere has basically been reserved for the most elite of the elite in this country. That's right. So I applauded that

move and supported wholeheartedly. In fact, the Secretary General of Amnesty International, the International Secretary General, is going to be in the United States in October at which time we are going to do a town hall meeting with him. The focus of Amnesty International's 1998 campaign will be human rights in the United States. And so I think it is very appropriate that the farmers take their issue before the United Nations because it internationalizes the problem and it makes the world aware that we do have a serious problem here in this country and it could be even included in the Amnesty International program for human rights in the United States. You know, in terms of this loss of land, I was surprised to learn during a

vacation a couple of years back to Hilton Head South Carolina to learn that much of that resort area used to be owned by black. Used to be owned by blacks who now work as, you know, cleaning people and in the kitchen in these hotels. Yes, it's very sad. Most of those islands off the coast of South Carolina in Georgia, the very, very sad story and you have some brave people who are trying to forestall what some would say is inevitable and that is the rush of so -called development, which means marginalization of the African -Americans who owned those islands. Okay. We're talking with Congresswomen Eva Clayton and Cynthia McKinney and Farmer Raymond Brown in North Carolina. Our toll -free hotline is 1 -800 -989 -8255 -1800 -989 -8255. We're going to go to the phones now and talk with Charles in some tear South Carolina with station WRJA.

Welcome to Powerpoint Charles. Good evening, Kenneth. How you doing? Fine, welcome. I was wondering if either of your guests are aware whether or not agribusiness is in any way responsible for the black farmers' plight of financial problems if there is indeed a discriminatory effort to rid them of the land and I am entirely sympathetic with that with their situation. I would just like to make a comment that I think part of all probabilistic small farmers relate back to the food consumers because over the years we have been accustomed to such a good bargain in our food that we take this for granted and replace more emphasis on the the price of the food and the quality of the food that we're getting and also of the type of society that is producing this food and some of the social problems that that

in the long run we have to deal with because of the displacement of the small farmer. Well, the displacement of the small farmer has many aspects of it, vertical integration, the whole globalization, the advancement of technology, but I think one of the things that perhaps is most devastating is the lack of access to credit, whether that's by discrimination or by just making the standards so high that small farmers are not able to afford it. If farmers want to be competitive in a global market they either find themselves forced by these vertical integration of large, corporate -owned farms that they cannot compete at the same cost. They can't sell their products at the same price as a company farm that all over the United States selling it and certainly if they don't have a technology they can't compete. You need money for all of that and access of

credit is so critical. I think that's why representatives McKinney and I and the rest of us are fighting so hard to make sure that black farmers not only not lose their land but also increase the opportunity to have more access to credit and have technical assistance so they can become competitive in addition to being treated fairly. We also want these small farmers to have a profit. We want them to have same quality of life as anyone else not just to be struggling but they ought to be viable entities as any other part of the agriculture community. But that would maybe be difficult to do on a farm before 150 acres. I was a small farm myself for three years and I grew up in small farming areas back in the 50s and 60s. I wouldn't be like it just before I get a phone to ask you what would you think of the idea since there is a

national movement toward organically produced foods that is lower pesticide foods and then this is typically has to be done by smaller farmers. What would you think of a bill in Congress giving these type of farmers some priority in obtaining credit if they would be agreeable to producing their produce, their foods organically? Thanks Charles for all those questions and answers and I'm sure our guests will deal with it but best of luck to you in Sumter. Farmer Raymond Brown why don't you take a crack at that in North Carolina? Are there so -called niche markets like organic produce or that might be attractive to you and other black farmers? Yes I feel like it would be attractive but it still goes back to the same thing that Congresswoman Clayton said the main thing that most of the black farmers need is money. Align a

credit we can't obtain the credit the money I mean we can't really do anything that's our main scrubber is being able to qualify for your loans having some money out there I mean far as growing the crops or whatever we can do we can grow and produce just like any other farmer can I mean but the main our main scrubber is being able to come up with the money. Okay we're talking with Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney and Eva Clayton on the hard road that is the plight of black farmers you can join this discussion after our break by calling 1 -800 -989 -8255 -1 -800 -989 -8255 we are coming up on 49 minutes into the hour and our discussion on the plight of black farmers will continue when we come back. Here's what's coming your way next week on PowerPoint it's the Plantation Syndrome a psychological catch -all for

the continuing crisis of pathology affecting black America. Next time on PowerPoint in the wake of Amistad a look at the slave mentality all that and PowerPoint news with Verna Avery Brown join us welcome back I'm Kenneth Walker I think Congresswoman McKinney just before our break you wanted to respond I

think to something Raymond Brown was saying. Right Kenneth there were several points that were made one by Lucille and several by Charles and I wanted to respond to one I think in response to Charles is that the public policy is something that has been overlooked I believe to the extent that as far as the the property lost the land lost the plight of the farmers the archer Daniels Midland doesn't give the from the millions of dollars in campaign contributions that it gives for nothing it I use it as an example it's one of the larger contributors but the fact is that these people have a presence on Capitol Hill that these small farmers don't have and so while the Congress says that it is doing something on behalf of

small farmers actually if you read the fine print what you will discover is that our public our public policy has been tilted in favor of these large agribusiness organizations and they are like the behemoths that just swamp these smaller smaller operations that minority farmers generally are. Secondly I believe we have a possibility of opening up new markets for our minority farmers if we think creatively about how we can tie Africans and African Americans together how we can tie minority farmers to these emerging markets we recently had an order for chickens to come into our to our congressional office which we weren't able to find a

farmer or even a federation of farmers or cooperative of farmers that was big enough to satisfy the order. There in these emerging markets in Eastern Europe in Russia in Africa are possibilities for our minority farmers to participate if we can learn about these opportunities and then hook our farmers up we have a project ongoing in our district to have our minority farmers grow soybeans for the Japanese market and while there's a lot of different characteristics that have to be met in order to satisfy these different markets in terms of taste and that kind of thing the bottom line is that there are other markets out there that need to be explored by by our minority farmers if we can

join together with that public policy and our minority farmers and think about it and other ways to make them viable then finally I would just like to say in response to what Lucille said about don't make excuses for Bill Clinton I guarantee you that I am not going to make any excuses for Bill Clinton himself I do happen to believe that the problem that while Clinton himself can demonstrate leadership and more leadership and he should demonstrate more leadership given how he was effectively swept into office on black folks it is the fact that there are people who are his advisors who don't have the same sensitivity that our president does have when it comes to these issues great we're going to take another call here with John and Fayetteville North Carolina with station WFSS welcome to PowerPoint John good evening can

uh congresswomen as well my question is it's basically concerned you guys mentioned it and alluded to the fact earlier in the evening that although there's been discriminatory practices and things like that there's always a legitimate claim of why farmers can't get the money they need so how do we actually go about trying to document this and actually trying to find a possible solution within a short term you know so the farmers can actually get the help they need now instead of a couple years down the road John thanks a lot for that call in our final moments I want to give our guests a chance to respond to just that question the best of luck to you in Fayetteville thanks uh one of you want to start taking a shot at that I'll let my sister congresswoman Clayton well I think you just have to go ahead and follow complaint and give as much details about as possible in the final analysis the best

value of a good lawyer is to find what you think may be overlooked as discrimination may be a preface of treatment what they kind of information they seek from you and how you have been dealt with all of those things need to be written down and passed on to your complaint agency all if you are employing a lawyer make sure you get a good lawyer who can help you think your case well and I would just merely add in these final seconds that I unfortunately I get really incensed about this because I cannot believe that African American and minority farmers are being asked to give up their rights and are being shunted around in the fashion that they are that that is happening and so my recommendation is that those of us who are in congress take steps to make sure that money is appropriated so that

USDA does not have that as a reason to deny immediate justice to these farmers and if there is not the political will for that I would even suggest filibustering some important legislation to make sure that the minority farmers get their justice and get their due from the United States government. Actually there is money set aside that any time that the government is found to be lovable it is not based on the preparation they are using that as an excuse. That's going to have to be the last word I want to thank congresswoman Eva Clayton of North Carolina and congresswoman Cynthia McKinney of Georgia and our farmer Raymond Brown Jr from North Carolina for participating in this subject on the hard road a hole that is the plight of the black farmer. I'm Kenneth Walker this has been PowerPoint.

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