New York Voices; 518; Making the Grade, Part 3

I think what's missing at this point and I think we need to continue to talk about it is an environment where there's a conversation about education decision making that involves more than the chancellor and the mayor and I don't think we have that. I think it's to some extent it's a result of their style to some extent. I think it's a floor in the governance system that we need to go back to the school system grew up with this model of highly local political control. And it is true you could have a check and balance by voting on everything. But what did that lead to paralysis and small time favoritism of the worst sort. New York.

Voice time New York places New York Voices is made possible by the members of 13 additional funding provided by Michael t Martin the Rockefeller Brothers Fund and Elise JAFFE And Jeffrey Brown. Hello and welcome to making the grade the third and final in the series of New York Voices education specials the Romani. You know three years ago there was a monumental shift of power in New York City when the state legislature dismantled the old Board of Education and made Michael Bloomberg the first mayor in 33 years with broad control over the largest school system in the world. Tonight's program will focus on how the Department of Education has run the city's twelve hundred public schools over the past three years has mayoral control resulted in a school system that better serves 1.1 million students and is the new system accountable to parents and taxpayers. Later in the program also down with schools chancellor Joel

Klein to get his views on the status of the reforms. But first a look at how mayoral control has changed the school system in terms of money power and public accountability. When a group of public school teachers were fired in 1968 it led to a long and bitter teacher's strike that divided the city at the heart of the conflict. With the growing dispute over who should control the public schools. The teachers union wanted the mayor to remain in control but community activists said that the system wasn't responsive enough to the needs of the city's growing black and Latino populations. The following year the state passed a bill that it was intended to be a compromise. The power was split between thirty two elected community boards and a seven person Central Board of Education whose members were appointed by the mayor and the fiber of presidents from the start. The Board of Education was notoriously bureaucratic while over the years the 32 community boards faced charges of patronage and corruption. Meanwhile the schools deteriorated and voters had no one to hold directly accountable.

Every mayor from a bean to Rudy Giuliani lobby described the decentralized system and retake control. But it wasn't until 2002 after years of declining test scores and dismal high school graduation rates that a political consensus for radical change emerged that June the governor signed a bill that handed control back to the mayor under the current system. The mayor has enormous power. There are 34 parent councils that advise the Department of Education but have no authority. There is a panel for education policy that votes on major decisions. But a majority of its members serve at the mayor's discretion. The mayor appoints the school's chancellor who reports solely to him 10 regional superintendents control all the schools and report directly to the Chancellor. To discuss this new way of running public education I'm joined by Dr. Irving hammer a former member of the Board of Education Joseph literally the Blanche de Blanc professor of public policy at Hunter College. And David Bloomfield a professor of Brooklyn College and a

member of one of the parent councils that advise the Department of Education. Gentlemen thank you so much for joining us. Thanks. Pleasure to have you join we start with you. You were not only a supporter but a strong advocate of neural control in fact you wrote one of the first books on mayoral control across the river. Have the reforms turned out as you had hoped. Well I think the reforms had moved the school system in the right direction. You have to go back to what we had before. We had a system where you the central board was appointed by six different people and it was difficult to determine who was accountable. We had community school boards that were elected but nobody participated in the election. I think what we've achieved at this point is that you have you have a mayor who ultimately is accountable for what happens in the schools. We've eliminated the school boards but I don't think we have in its place provided a channel for

parental and community participation at the level we need. I think there are a couple of ways you can you can evaluate governance on the one hand there's the bottom line question are schools doing better. And I think there's some some evidence to support that. On the other hand governance is about participation. It's about having a public discussion about issues that are important to people in the city. It's about transparency. It's about accountability that on one level you know it allows us to hold the mayor accountable in every four years these things are not part of the reform. I think they are to different and different extents I think we have that we've we've gotten to the point where we can set it the mayor up or down after four years I'm not quite sure that we've achieved the level of discourse that we should have. On education policy I mean I did one more thing which is that through mayoral control for the first time in a very long time we put budgetary authority together with accountability and that just wasn't present under the old

system. Raddled I don't agree with David on that point right. I mean do you think that would be one of the one of the few people who openly oppose I mean we're absolutely going to still do and I'm pleased to say that a number of points that Joe and I are agreeing for a change because the history has been that we haven't really agreed that they have an eye on the other hand have been agreeable with a lot of things and we're not agreeing today by the way I think the mayor has had budgetary control for a long time indeed. The deal that was made to get the mail control was a cash deal. What the mayors gave up with the right to use state aid in local school districts in order to have control of this of the system so when one studies the actual legislation what you see is this provision that prohibits the mayor from using stating for any other purpose but school. So that's what he gave that I think that's what he did the legislature again I don't know where you're going to be better off than he was right they've always had budgetary control. And so I totally agree with Joe which is a really interesting point I mean I think we've lost a lot of participation. It was low but I think it's lower now. I mean I don't think I think

that's a mistake. My point was that the mayor always did have budgetary control. He didn't have political accountability. He could give the money but then he had no control over where they were rather he could defund the schools and say well the schools are lousy because the Board of Education isn't doing a good job. David you're a member of the parent of one of the 34 parent councils. Joe says they don't have enough clout What do you say. Well they clearly don't have enough clout as a member I would like to have more. Should they have more. Well it's a bully pulpit and I think that the council members have to use the pulpit for that purpose. We can't have paralysis. We need someone in charge and the old Community School Board System clearly wasn't working because the elementary and middle schools weren't under the direct control of the chancellor. It was a terrible situation. I think what we need is as Joe was indicating and think is Irving is indicating to the chancellor has to listen to the counsels more so that they hear the problem.

Press TV That's great I mean you know one Chancellor. Who was picked by a mayor may be somebody who's willing to listen another one may not be. What are the structures present. I get a lot that makes the chance a very important point. First of all when you when you get to the minute parent overall it's not just that more power you've had difficulty getting parents to sit on these committees and I think parents understand that the committee because they don't have a lot to do that's number one. But when we talk about governance you're also talking about transparency. Part of it is a result of the style of the current administration when you have a City Council Education Committee for example which should have a role in education decision making in the dialogue. They have not been able to get access to information. I think the chair has been very frustrated evil Moskowitz who has been a very aggressive Well well-informed chair of the Education Committee. I think there's been a problem with transparency with regard

to the press you have more freedom of information request in this administration than when you were advocating when you were advocating mayoral control. How did you envision this accessibility in this transparency would occur with no hard and fast mechanism to allow it to occur. I guess one of the things I was focused on was the lack of accountability at all. You know I think we we do have some accountability in the sense that we know who's responsible. I think what's missing at this point you know I think we need to continue to talk about it is an environment where there's a conversation about education decision making that involves more than the chancellor and the mayor. And I don't think we have that. I think it's to some extent it's a result of their style to some extent. I think it's a floor in the governance system that we need to go back to. I think Joe is right the transparency the accessibility is is missing in a really big way that has been the case in most of the mayoral experiences since 1991

Pikesville Kentucky. Same thing happened. It's happened in Boston. It happened in Chicago. The participation of the Chicago had huge numbers of parent councils and school based councils all gone. Right now one could argue about the effectiveness of those. But what's really interesting here is the accountability sort of conversation. Right. One of the reasons that folks advocated account mayoral control was for the purposes of accountability. There's absolutely no evidence there's no experience anywhere. Boston is a prime example. They've had male control there for 10 years. Tom Payson has been the superintendent there for 10 years. They have 28 schools in low performing. The mayor has not been to Chicago I thought I may be you guys. No one's been elected no no one's been voted out of office right the accountability is a function of whether the system is working. The mayor and his in his administration get support another if they don't like they get they can put out all the things we can all agree in fact that those are systems on the move in the main which were positive and and it may be that none of them

are moving as quickly as we want so that all children are learning. But a great many more children are learning in New York City to get today under mayoral control than they were under the paralytic system that we had before. I also want to say one more thing about parent input which is the parent coordinator position each school has a leader will have a member of the torrent of voting the parents are given the grievances or their concerns and those people are responsible and in fact accountable for increasing parenting engagement in those schools. So while we at a policy level can talk about the 34 CCDs which may not be weekly jobless and those are the parent councils at the individual school level which is after all where most parents are really concerned. I think there really has been greater parent input than there was before I think that. I'm not sure about that in terms of the parent input. Hi I'm encouraged by what I've seen in Boston and in Chicago in terms of the mayoral

systems I think moving in the right direction. And I think we can be encouraged about this system moving in the right direction I think the test scores are positive. I think there's a danger we older we exaggerate with the significance of the test scores because it's had scores only take us up to the eighth grade. We still have a problem with high school dropouts and completion rates. We still have a problem in the middle schools. We still have a problem where we're losing principals and a really problematic rate. We we have a you know there's lots left to be done. It's for as we can. If we what we can do after four years is take a snapshot and say things I'm probably moving in the right direction. That's encouraging. It doesn't mean that the conversation is over. It doesn't mean that we can't look at the system and say well how can we fine tune this. What's missing. What we achieved and what have we not done what would be the mechanism then to fix the things that you think I'd be broken that this is an interesting point because the model

is a business model. The whole accountability conversation we borrowed from business Mayall control is an executive sort of model that we borrow from business Mr. Bloomberg and Mr. Klein both come from those who visit all sectors of education of the way out there now but just hold me no support of just one director that it is that the point here is that David has talked about incremental gains in some of Joe. So over the years we can make an argument that both the New York Chicago Boston we've seen some incremental gains. That's not the business model the business model. It's a quantum leap major major radical change. So we had this radical change shifting the governance structure but we haven't had radical consequences like analogy to the business model. They're treating it as a business model because the business model looks at the bottom line right. The bottom line in education the better worse is test scores. When you're looking at something as a governmental system though there's not just the bottom line in that's why process is important. That's why involvement of people is important. That's why public debates

are important and that's and we this is not a business it's a business to the point of view to the point that there are lots of resources you have to manage the resources well you have to look at results. It's not a business in the sense that is it is part of the government it is part of public service and it needs to be treated. But what about the point that the DRO made I'll ask you David first then you can both jump in that the mayor said Look hey I'm accountable. You can if you don't like what I'm doing you can vote me out of this and that checks and balances enough. I think that that is an important check and balance and we can all beat up on the mayor. We have a lively debate in this city. And the amazing thing and it's a real change in terms of mayoral control. The debate is about education. The debate used to be about budget. Nobody questions if the city is maximizing within its resources. Budget now it's a state issue but not a city issue anymore. And you think that the ballot box is a fair check and balance for the system what do you think I don't think it is I

mean I think we've had this many well-controlled jurisdictions all over the country since 1991. No one's ever been voted out of office because they haven't hit the bottom line. I think there's a way to do this governance that doesn't give control over entirely to the mayor. Right. I think Joe's point about democratic the Democrat Democratic participation is really a right point. It needs to be at the top of the list not at the bottom. It should be subsequent. It should be a primary sort of sort of line of discussion. Actually the reforms have to be reviewed by the state legislature in 2009. Right. If you were advising the legislature in 2009 how should they reconstruct the reforms exist. Well the first thing I would say is don't go back to what we had. Right. Is there a chance that you think you're doing it with this legislature. That's why I said it so what. So what do you what would you recommend. I think we have to think about the parental role and I think we have to figure out if there is some institutional mechanism for regular accountability beyond four years whether it be a more empowered school board that's more

independent whether it be some kind of the other and minister rate of body that hit like they have in Chicago and they can evaluate it. This isn't just an academic buy on a regular basis. I don't think the four years does it but I think the four years is a is good it's better than what we had. But I'm not sure it's enough. Anything different that you would suggest. I really do think that the model is interesting because what we're really talking about and what I'm talking about is turning the school system around. Right. Same same business model accountability turnaround strategy. I think you don't really have to have the all control to do that. I mean David what would you recommend. Don't tinker. I think their institutions will grow up and as we've seen in fact with the city council when the Independent Budget Office that will hold the mayor accountable day by day month by month as well as having voter control. Well there will have to be the last word Gentlemen thank you so much. It's been a pleasure to have you with us. To talk more about school governance and other aspects of his reform initiative I met with Schools

Chancellor Joe Klein at the Department of Education Chancellor as was reflected by the panel discussion we just saw. One of the biggest concerns that people have about New York control is the apparent lack of public oversight over the department. How do you answer that concern. I guess it depends what you mean by public oversight for the first time and I think the panelists generally acknowledge this we have Merrill accountability mayoral responsibility and believe me plenty of oversight. We have had more hearings before the city council I think last year we had something like 40 to 50 hearings which is unprecedented before the city council we've had reports by all of various organizations. And obviously because of the nature of mayoral control it's been a lot more public scrutiny. But what I think people like to read a reader who was a strong supporter of microcontrollers as you know what he's talking about is an actual functional check and balance on the mayor's power checks and balances I guess the question is checks and balances on one on every decision that comes down the pike I mean the council has an

enormous check and balance over the economics of it. They pass laws that regulate it. Is that any different than what goes on in government generally. The school system grew up with this model of highly local political control. And it is true you can have a check and balance by voting on everything. But what did that lead to paralysis and small time favoritism of the worst sort. And now we're seeing change and real results. There is more discussion more focus more newspapering. Education is the hot issue and I think that's great. A number of reporters as I think you probably know have complained that they've had some difficulty in getting basic even basic information from this department and that they've had to resort to Freedom of Information requests more often than never in the past. Inevitably their job is to get information then they want what they want when they want it as if everything should stop. We should just get it you know we have a

school system right. Second there are privacy issues that are recognized under the Freedom of Information law. There are issues about. You know matters that you can't turn over and you can't. Sometimes these are legitimate disputes but I have never seen the press say they got everything they want and indeed I would suspect that they will never come. I think the level of transparency is very very high. And other than generalities what people say when I say specifically what where do you think there's not transparency. But how do you explain this increasing Freedom of Information request. I did this from an increase in coverage of the department. There is no question about it. Look at the number of column inches which reflects transparency I think one of the things mayoral control has done is focus the city on education that I think is all to the good. Now one of the goals that you've had since you became chancellor was to. Change some of the work rules of the teachers contracts because you as many

others have felt those work rules limit your in the principal's ability to reward good teachers punish bad teachers or to move teachers where they're most necessary. Is that still your go. My goal is to make sure that there's a fair and rational distribution of human talent in the system when I start out and tell people outside of the school system that we take our youngest least experienced teachers and we put them into our most challenging schools. People say why would you do that. Do you know any other organization that doesn't. We don't ask first year doctors to do open heart surgery. And then there are these work rules which frankly are astonishing to me that teachers are barred by the contract from having a homeroom period in middle school where the teachers can't be in the hallways between periods. That sends the wrong signal. So I would like to see those things changed. And for us to get to a situation where actually the contract facilitated things that are right for kids and in the end right for

teachers. Are you getting closer to the possibility of changing those rules or are you further away than ever. I know I think I think through the dialogue and discussion we're moving in the right direction. The teachers union president Randi Weingarten has said. Others have said it is well that this department has micromanaged the teachers what they do in the classroom to such an extent that some of them are demoralized to the point of quitting. What do you say to that. First of all I think the evidence shows otherwise I think if anything fewer people believe in the system now. I would be the first to agree that in a couple stories written about a focus on bulletin boards or a mini lesson for dining there is it. I think that stuff is ridiculous. This is not about bulletin boards it's not about rugs and it's not about rocking chairs. Now if a teacher in a kindergarten class wants to sit in a rocking chair or if some people think that conveys a nice symmetry that's wonderful. If they want to sit on a hard chair like I'm sitting. God bless them. But the fundamentals of this curriculum before I

would just say talk to our teaches most of our teachers our young teachers in particular feel enormously empowered by this. But to the degree that some teachers feel that they've been micromanaged you say that that's because of misunderstanding on the part of the principals that they've taken. Suggestions as rules sometimes and sometimes I think anybody who says to people you want to do things a little differently because you're not getting the success that we'd like to see that can be viewed as micro-management to me that is management. You and I many others not even connected to the departed occasion you know point to the test scores as proof that the changes that you brought to the system are working because as you say the city test scores rose dramatically and so did the state test scores but some people talking about the city test say that you know there really is no independent ability to review these tests. So it's possible that test scores rose so high

because the tests were easier than they have been in the past. We're talking now add. Six different grades in both English and math a total of 12 Tests with significant improvement almost in every grade and in both subjects. Two different independent testing company. We don't grade these things these are graded by independent testing companies that do this nationally that have enormous reputations that have very sophisticated computer programs. That's the way they did it the City Council held a hearing on these things and these people came in and testified. But there are a lot of people at that hearing who said that the results didn't need more scrutiny that it was unclear what accounted for the higher test scores. I mean the results are due to the performance of our kids our teachers I don't think there's any question about that. And in terms of the tests again I think it's important for people understand these tests are done by independent test companies who do this throughout the country.

This is the way it's done everywhere. You know if Mayor Bloomberg gets reelected are you committed to staying on as chancellor for four more years. Put it this way it's up to the mayor of course but if the mayor would like me to stay on I will be honored to stay on. I have a passion about public education to change my life. I'm excited about the work we've done and if the mayor at City would like to have the mayor remain in the mayor would like to have me remain I would be privileged. If he does get re-elected and you do remain what will be your priorities for the next four years to build on the work that we have done I think we have a lot of work to do in the middle schools. We started by putting 40 million dollars into the middle schools but that's been a problem we need to build on that. I think we've got to really ramp up this program for vocational education. But I mean real vocational education it's tied to a job I like to build on the gifted and talented initiative that we started with that a lot of talent in this city. I want to make sure we

challenge all of our kids I think we have for the work to do in special ed in English Language Learners. But I would say overall New York is not only holding its own with close gaps on fourth grade English language arts the thing we're talking about are African-American and Latino students improved even more. So I think it's all moving in the right direction. We need many many more years of sustained growth and progress. And that's it for this edition of YOUR VOICES. For more on this or any other new YOUR VOICES program log onto our website at 13 dot org. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next week. New York Voices says made possible by the members of 13 additional

funding provided by Michael Timor. The Rockefeller Brothers fon and Elise JAFFE And Jeffrey Brown.