The 51st State; "Special: Frank hogan, DA; Hogan: ""Mr. DA"""

Why. No one no one it appears for him. And I got in a bob. I don't like to lie about being on the happen to. You. The film you just saw was made in 1971 too updated. I need to note sadly that Congressman Bill Ryan is now dead. I need to note further that Bronx district attorney Burton Roberts is now a state Supreme Court justice that the publisher of former publisher of arrows magazine Allen Ginsburg is now out of out of jail and back in the publishing business. That state from a state

supreme court justice Michel Sweitzer has resigned from the bench. Now here with me in the studio to discuss the era of the sea evening is Richard Q A former bureau chief and administrative assistant for Mr. Hogan from one thousand fifty three thousand one hundred sixty four. And he's now an attorney in private practice and also 50 for a state reporters. So when Rob and how Levinson who have covered the Hogan office in recent years I mistook you is this film unfair or is it a hatchet job. I do agree with both that sound fair and a hatchet job. I think your timing of them ajak having this show tonight the day after Frank Hogans resignation has been announced. At a time when I think everyone those who participated in the hatchet job in the UN fantasies and those who are not admired as authoress when people are generally including as I say those critics recognize the good the fantastic good and we can develop that and just a

moment in this program I think it is damnably unfortunate that public service educational television decided tonight at this time to re air this program that despite an award it got from someone who knew little about the New York scene the American bar so the American Bar Association that had no special want to messy with the New York scene or just considering excuse me I think I don't quarrel with the making of the show I quarrel with its facts many of which I know to be fallacy. I quarrel with its staging I quarrel with John Parsons who produced it and came to me and wanted me to participate. And I said John I'll gladly participate now get frank open to participate if you will assure some objectivity and the answer was No and you wanted to write me if you will. But I don't want you to ask for the right I asked you and to get someone who objective Lee would review it and he said no this is my show. I'll do it my way but I don't want to get into an argument tonight when I simply suggest how and Jack

himself on that at this time. On this date December twenty seven thousand nine hundred seventy three. When a man who has been unique not simply in the annals of criminal justice but in the annals of public service and I say that conservatively and I think we can all develop that and contribute to it to have at this time when that man is quite clearly ill when he has faced the sadness of having to step down from the position he is held with on of the 32 years despite certain criticisms I think through Rio that program tonight in my mind and I'm just one citizen in this community was a sad mistake and just wasn't well and I would end it simply one thing and I've been talking to him on. That program in effect I know this wasn't the intent of it. But Mark the kickoff the bill Vancouver's campaign against Hogan I know it wasn't so intended but in effect that's what it did. Bannon who going out was not going farther to deal with Annan who form out some of those same criticisms how and happily the citizens of any kind going to a distance of about

the sacred seed. I've listened to it for two years from former or going to Sister neighbors just afraid to come forward because they're afraid the only thing is will be in jeopardy when you have a warrior and say we haven't the constitutional right to confront one's accusers to cross-examine and Hogans 32 year as they have been probably and I all of you out here. Scuse me how probably some seven or eight hundred assessed us and you pull two out of seven or eight hundred to criticize and you talk of nameless faceless seeing them as representative of the views of many assistants who feared to come. I don't know of the year that their legal careers would be in jeopardy. An off the record conversation going on in courtrooms all the time and you participate and the only way that reporters can report on certain kinds of stories is proud and we're not here to talk about me but I have more courage than those faceless cowardly people whom you talk about. I have only one quality now I believe their whole careers I have a craving for publication criticizing things about the office that I think one

there are lions in that program and to what I am saying what it is you want and what I must deal with the less I think the programs are good investigative report I help John Parsons strike and we would see if I would. Yes you know I would urge this upon both of you and I wrote down a few of the lies and can review them. But I would simply plead and beg and play along and plot that tonight the second night after Franco going to has announced his resignation and all the papers all oppressed you folks yourselves I think of that. Recognize what a great DA's been I suggest that it is appropriate tonight when I agreed to come on the show tonight my understanding was tonight we would not spend that Scott sing at two year old job. Call it hatchet job call it unfair or not fair is not all that hard if you're not so I can't respond to the terminology and I said his choice of both words was correct I would like to tonight if I may interrupt your program and I'm the one outside here and you. You write the script

but I would like to tonight your right to discuss to discuss the Hogan era to discuss the positives to discuss and listen to Putins to public service. If I cannot waste time on the Michael Metzger's in the 9/11 Commission if I can get a second second question in this evening. Dechen I appreciate your views and this is why we wanted you here we want somebody who has worked with Hogan and who wants to express himself and we appreciate your being here. But we also want to take a fair objective and fair of you at the Hogan era and taking what you would consider a fair objective and era view of the whole going here. How would you assess Mr. Hogan as of the day. I would I guess do several things when I would say his unique contribution in that sand sand that this is unique but true and we know how true it is in these days of Watergate. His unique contribution to not just being a D.A. but to public office holding rose that he ran a large office an important office and the largest city in this country and ran it hardly for thirty

two years without political shadings people were not hired because of political pull. People once hired were not told. Ride herd on this one I'll go easy on this one for political poll I've seen a lot of politicians in this town and Jack you and you other fellows had. And you have the flamboyant guy who will do anything for a headline. You have the guy who was busy developing charisma you have the guy and I'm not thinking of particular people obviously the family obviously the most recent would tell you you have the guy who will do anything because when in one job he's running for the next job and this is politics in America you have the Nixon and the people around Nixon who will do anything and say that power then they say it's not just the last you know how to do it I'm going to win what do you think I'm doing. It was very evident what I am saying here that Frank Hogan has done and I think you fellows would concede it and most people in this town in this nation would concede it. He ran a major public office and ran it with all the frailties of

human nature and he's not perfect and I've criticised him and many ways but he ran it well with one guide word and that was honesty integrity. Now I don't want not OPIC you know one other question and I'll turn it over to my colleagues did you run it too long in your view. Should you have run for a ninth. Fourth Yeah and something like some of the people how was spoken to I went in to see him at the time he was making this decision. Friends of mine some political statements went to see him and urge that he step aside and urge that he step aside simply because no one can hold an office for eternity you know we are all mortal at the time he decided to run and throughout his campaign he had no inkling that he was you know it was as hindsight has shown none at all. His campaign demonstrated great big. But he was 71. There was some criticism. Largely I think unjustified but some criticism that maybe the office wasn't changing and living strong enough in the 70s I

articulated that to him I articulated it in some forms. But I think basically that criticism is minuscule as petty compared to the contributions and if I can turn now to my colleague Hal who I know is I going to say something about the film which I think you have a hand in and early stages are just in the very early stages it was John Parsons film I just want to say before we pass on the question of the propriety of the station running this film I think would be a disservice to the people of the city and a disservice to our viewers not to a broadcast this particular program tonight. I think this program is a document. It was the first of its kind in 171 involving a serious investigation of the office of Frank Sullivan. Journalists in the city up until that time were very careful in dealing with that with that office. This was really the very first serious attempt at an investigative report and I think it's historically important in the city for that reason. I think people are entitled to see this. And I want people to know that there are many other former assistant district attorneys who hold many of the same

views that were articulated by Mike Metzger and by Mr. Cuccinelli on this program one of a turnout of so and you've covered the DA's office. Do you have an assessment of how powerful a man he was or how good a job. I don't think there's any question that anyone who's worked in New York as a newsman would say that. Hogan undoubtedly was more powerful than any of the other district attorneys and I think the public doesn't and probably doesn't know any of the other district attorneys or any of the district attorneys to serve during the 40s and 50s and I know that when I worked at the World Telegram when I tried to magazine articles there was tremendous pressure from any resistance to any of any any piece that was in any way remotely critical of Hogan. People felt that this had Hogan in some way was untouchable or that you just could not say anything about him. I think it gets to the point that Mary Pearl Nichols from the Village Voice said that the papers were afraid of Hogan heroes in this kind of pedestal. Now I want to ask you about it for journalists as well. Well the point was it's less credit perhaps for editors and publishers not to journalists but I think things did change in a sense when understood not a journalist I'm a lawyer after the Q You said you had some criticisms

of the authors. One if we could hear them. Sure you can hear mine I'm not much prefer to come back another night and discuss what a prosecutor's office should be I think. For instance and I voiced this to Jack and others a year ago. I think a prosecutor has no right ever to hold a press conference on a rest and an indictment of a man is presumed innocent. The indictment speaks of the formal charges when a prosecutor holds a press conference to announce that indictment. To elaborate evil can be done I've represented defendants who have been been cleared completely but have been incurably Todd by the free publicity pretrial this happens in that office it happens in every prosecutor's office in the country it shouldn't have but them is I think credible I think it happens less and less anywhere else indeed. I think that plea bargaining as it exists throughout the city not just New York County is an abruption. I've got an article coming out next week in the new leader about a New York County has not taken leadership in correcting its badly because their heart has not

taken the discipline on my dick because that's going to you know it says that that's one of the criticisms that I have heard from former assistants that they expected more of Mr. Hogan. And I want to make it very clear the reason we're here is because Mr. Hogan doesn't joy a very fine reputation which we share and that's the reason why it would be worth talking about. I think this if you take the leadership and try to deal with congestion in the criminal in the Supreme Courts of the city. In the last five years let me answer it this way Hal and I'm not going to be a defender an attack on that may seem mealy mouth. I've been a defense lawyer for eight years I'm on the other side I fought with the DA's office all day today. I go into court I write papers criticizing the papers meaning court briefs affidavits criticizing some of the things that happen. If you want somebody to come in and justify the office get someone other than myself. I do think there are valid criticisms and 973 of the narcos that I can see as great as I think it is essentially is as structured some years ago that I think the big

contributions of Frank Hogan and I think what we talked about cannot be permitted to do with the big contributions. Is the excitement about honesty and integrity with everything else. Not being in the picture that he created I think the fact you mentioned a few of the people in the program Jack and you brought him up to date. The present City investigation commission in Mexico Petter is from the office of the governor Governor as chairman of the criminal justice division. I'm not sure that that's the exact name Archie Murray is in the DA's in New York when I say DA's office I mean the DA's office Frank Logan's office or the prize are in charge of Correctional Services. That office has spewed the very best people and I want to get in and I want to talk it into writing not just to say it has rescued a lot of people and spewed a lot of good people a lot of important positions not one of them has missed in the Jari. Now if Mr. Hogan and if the other DA's had been doing their jobs as some people think they might should've done would have been a need for mist mist in the jar. Did the Hogan

office really crack down on police corruption in the way that would make you feel comfortable at the time. When the Jerry was appointed which actually his appointment went beyond the strict recommendation of the Knapp Commission. Now Scotty the acting da chief assistant head of the racket bureau for years produce statistics showing that the New York DA's office with thousands really you've probably 50000 cases to handle a year and a relatively small rackets bureau produced more indictments in the last previous year of police than the Knapp Commission had in its seven years and relatively high budget. There Gerri has been a special prosecutor appointed and now is a good friend and I think highly of Maury But Maury has a budget I think it should be the four or six million a year solely to deal solely to deal on official corruption. And I asked with great respect what convictions he has gotten after 16 months in office. So I do. What's going on in fiction I don't criticize because I know how the

difference between hearsay and the Knapp Commission using Philips using either has relied heavily on hearsay but there's a vast difference between making charges and proving them and I think if one wants to do a dollar for dollar evaluation there are ways of arguing that the New York Yankees are going to have done better than either the NAC Commission has yet isn't isn't a fact but I wish I could ask somebody else that was in the OP well known isn't it enough that any of the five county district attorney's offices in New York City and probably elsewhere in the country are absolutely not inclined to be aggressive in going after police officers why. Because the district attorney's office needs police officers to make cases I've spoken to assistants who will tell me that when they suspect that the police officer is not being truthful in describing the version of a crime that may have been committed that that day just won't walk away after the police officer damnations they insist upon maintaining a relationship with the office the problem is that just as there are television news reporters and there are television news reporters there are assistant DA's and there are assistant DA's when I was an

assistant DA. I had a bureau you mention that Jack in introducing me we sent a reporter out monthly to the den first deputy police commissioner of police officers none of whom we knew any crime but who seemed to have and then ordered a number of gambling dismissals because that looks fishy to us. Why should Officer X have many of his cases and dismissals and we kept on that and I felt no obligation to be buddy buddy with police. I grant there are many assistants who do I think the assistants who do who do that are running their own cause. They never did an on Franco construction Dixon optimising use the phrase that the police and the DA's offices were very close and that the DA's offices looked upon the police as their allies and the word allies was the word used. Who's the commission's chief investigator and really one of the commission's key people all ex police out of the D A's op yesterday going to having a look at another forum to tell you that people have been if he is not the same guy they were going to form just just as in the jar as people

have to work on Metformin and up Commission people have to work and therefore you've got to remove them from the DA's office before they can go after police and judges and others. For me I would be going to movies for the return of the police for corruption I tried police for stealing narcotics all before it was fashionable to do so. I was not the only assistant who did those things to get something else. Last thing I think it gets to the heart of the matter of fact and I think it was one of the reasons you seem to be so upset. It always seemed to me that one of the problems with Mr Hogan soffit wasn't upset I was resentful of Alright well whatever you whatever your terminology is but many that it seemed to me that we and it in the news media in New York whenever it had anything to say that was in any way critical of Mr. Hogan. All this weight came down upon you in effect that Mr. Holden could not be criticised. There was something about his office and you reacted in that same way today that somehow or other whatever he even though he's such an important man he's been in the office for 30 years that there's no grounds for criticism.

There's no questioning whatsoever no questioning whatsoever of what he's done and I give you and I have one specific challenge there are grounds for valid criticism I think there's a difference between low blows and valid criticism in 1962 when again it was unfashionable almost 12 years ago a year after the Mapp decision I wrote a piece I was an assistant D.A. I was an administrative assistant. The piece had Hogans blessing before it appeared in which I said dropsy police testimony police testimony that they saw slips or little envelopes dropped to the ground was highly suspect. It's no matter what he said or what was done about that. You know what I mean he was a student office ever attempt to implement the concerns that you articulated on the ground probably haven't we attempted the problem again of attempting to implement and getting mass indictments of the two quite different things. One watch the Nat hearings and saw Officer Philips testify and one got the impression whether true or not I don't know but the impression that probably two cops out of three with thieves. We have 30 I think it's about thirty seven to thirty five thousand

policemen now Jarry with four or six million dollars a year having in business been in business 16 months. Being very able and having an able staff I think has indicted a total of less than 20 policemen or maybe 20 or 30 policeman. What I'm saying to you and I think anybody who's been around criminal justice knows there is a difference between sniffing smoke and proving file I'm not talking about indictments I'm talking about Frank Hogan taking a public position about matters such as drops you have and went for it. It is not just matters like congestion and the backlog in this in the Supreme Court right Kogan who runs a tight ship and insists that no assistant publish anything unless he's okayed it permitted me in 1962 to publish in the New York Law Journal a document read by the entire bar bench and occasionally even picked up by the New York Times that it's criticized the police. I say it is difficult to say he was shielding those very nice I'm talking about Mr Hogan taking a leadership a man of a man of that power of that influence of that reputation. A man of honesty and

integrity. I'm talking about former assistants telling me that they would have liked to see him get out and make a bigger creation of the Knapp Commission now is that leadership or ISN'T IT leader I think that was a product of the time I was what they were saying when he gives leadership. I might also have stated I don't think anybody. He was 11 when he was not on the court and that is not going to do a thing which way you read it. They have indeed taken Malins he's taken I don't know that I can check their clips and you thought I was well report as the fact is that at the time a convo cation was held I have today Burnham stories appeared of the five days in the Cooperation Council in the investigation commissioner and it was Hogan who gave leadership at that thing and said We people have an interest should not be investigating ourselves should not be investigated in the area where somebody may be held Levinson if you will two years hence will say cover up. Get an independent domesticate and Frank Hogan recommended Nick I wonder if they don't if I could put this question a little different framework come out from a little different angle and that is that here we are now trying to assess the

record of a district attorney who has been a district attorney for 32 years and we obviously have the obvious they have some differences but is there now an adequate way for the public to assess the work of a DA is the now and adequate accountability on the part of any DA not of not just Mr. Hogan. And what do we need if this is one of the problems Jack done not sure that there is an effective way to assess the work of any public official. When has elections in Franco been in six or eight months ago came through the election the primary in effect and was assessed what six to five are. Savior had an out of it. I don't think it would. Maybe maybe the need is and the trouble is now we have a city investigation commission a state investigation commission we have all sorts of groups checking on each other and the need is another ombudsman I don't think so. Well now as you know we have a state commission of investigations we do is investigating the DA's but it was only with the creation of the gyres office that this power was given to this

state and we have all we had the old Hughes commission senator uses now dead on us now and let you know when he recommended certain things that's been done. None of them have been done one of the things that he recommended specifically was an office to monitor the work of the DA's. He even suggested that the DA's select this administrative head to monitor the work of the DA's but that didn't happen the only thing we've now got is the state commission of investigation going to Paris put up some sort of monitoring of the DA's office as it is now. They're almost unaccountable they have immense discretionary power. Is that the Right Went Wrong Or if not quite sure that what you say is true at least in so far as it is true it is true of the merit of the comptroller the governor the lieutenant governor you name it it is true of public officials generally the DA has NO NO special immunity. I have suggested. Again in this article on plea bargaining that's coming out why don't the newspapers and on television instead of doing one day wonders why don't they consistently look over the shoulder of one of the things for instance that I have suggested the New York Times has all its

Datta columns buyers and townships and what you name and the times it's got a column on it. Why doesn't the column daily publish a report of Lester played as Jack Hamilton charged with robbery in the first degree ultimately don't ultimately plead it to petty larceny and gut assuming it wasn't what it is what it will be pretty second or so when there's no doubt in my mind. If one lives and she among county New Yok and as the prosecutor there you're damned careful. You know I guess you can't because everybody in the community knows you and you don't have a thousand plea bargaining is over a month period and oh and then when you have a little bit of what they want you're probably talking to nobody. So no wonder you don't want people who are you know this is just one recommendation you're talking about 20 or 30 a day and I simply suggest that if there is greater visibility of what the DA's do one of the things that should be done and I criticized this bargain I'm going to criticize gene go why don't the five DA's or at least those in the large county Brooklyn Manhattan Bronx and possibly queens have original complaint here is why you have someone

in Harlem wants to complain do they have to somehow find out when that street now you slime should be done that should be going on is going to set up an office in Harlem somewhere and I'm not here to defend when I make these criticisms these at least in my book are valid medicines it's criticisms but I don't think tonight they should overshadow the value of the man I would like to see is a positive discussion of what has happened and we're trying to trying to discuss this and we're trying to do is to assess and office and we have difficulty doing it because we don't know a lot of things that went on nobody knows a lot of things I want to know about Enron and a half hour show about it monitoring this thing that one of the specific suggestions that has been made by the Hughes report that you have referred to. It has been that the state attorney general assumed the supervisory role in New York that he has as you know in California and in New Jersey and in other states that is a that he monitor the county D.A. and he's represented that a governor on the recommendation I believe of the attorney general appoints each county prosecutor.

There are arguments for that my own feeling is you then can get I'm not suggesting this happened in Jersey you can get state wide institutionalized laxity or even corruption. I think having independently either elected or appointed prosecutors in each county My own preference is still elected creates a degree of independence and creates in New York State 62 labs laboratories for criminal justice rather than one. Well I'm asking the question for you sir. Satisfied With Are you satisfied with the present system do you think there's adequate accountability. If I was satisfied I guess I'd ascended to the undertaker knowing how dissatisfied but I think when one has to study each facet of the system and make recommendations for improvement and I can give you a dozen recommendations in each area that that at least in my mind subjectively should be followed but I don't think that means a that Hogans been defective or B that the system is corrupt or worse it doesn't mean anything like it we constantly learn and

prove my dite watch that this network on occasion and see it experimenting with new shows. Why doesn't it run the same shows a grand 5 years ago because it is constantly improving and I think the DA's can I have been doing this same question why did you leave the district attorney's office and why or somebody other than me or them. And I want so many others leaving from the 1965. It's been a it's been a brain it's common talk around 100 Center Street that the quality of the assistance is not what it used to be you know it's never like good old days we've all learned that wouldn't look good doing it everything has only recently already answer House decisions are definitely on these a lot of the username that you can I set off that way our lives not our passing is the last question I used to finance charges recruitment in the DA's office at a time when I need you and others thought the office was wonderful and in those days we had a staff of about 90 people and the turnover then was that it would vary but anywhere from a dozen to 20 year.

Now the staff in terms of the system prosecutors is about one hundred eighty And my guess is the turnover is about points is great. So that in percentages the turnover is no greater indeed if you examine the New York County DA's office. It's turned over the length of time people stay is longer than in the U.S. attorneys because you just just briefly why did you leave if it was such a good office and you were so happy in this doesn't win the lottery many many reasons and we were here to discuss Frank Hogan and I think it doesn't Balika like I was there are 11 years I was if you will the third a fourth in command of that office I had a bureau. I believe that there was a great Englishman who said it's good to be repotted from time to time not potted but repotted the night I was repotted I decided to see the other side of the world and I'm going right i'm a question if you think you're a nonce for Mr. Holden's office and I will not discuss that here tonight. Now Dick One final question if I could ask it is if you were going to assess Mr. Hogan very quickly very briefly how would you do it man

who brought to public life would all of us like to teach our kids. It's the sort of integrity that we should go through life with that how do you have a quick recess you know I'd still like to know from Dick you I guess we'll find out after the broadcast what the lies were in the parsons report and I'd be delighted to spend a half hour telling you so I think one's own life you know is that worth about time district attorneys like everybody else was more accountable in the city and I don't think I don't think that former Hogan assistance should react to this kind of a broadcast is so you know we dare run such a plan never it should not you know but I like it when you write you had I you know I had to go find I think tonight I think it will take I think I'm going to I'm going to have to edit it in a fair here and just say that I want to thank you very much for joining us tonight in this assessment of Mr. Hogan. Mr. District Attorney I'm John Howland the fifty first state. Good night.