Presidential Debate

We'll be doing music from field paying $12, $13, $14 an hour for factory workers. And you can move your factory south to the border, pay a dollar an hour for labor, hire a young 25. That's a certain you've been in business for a long time, you've got a mature workforce. Pay a dollar an hour for your labor, have no health care, that's the most expensive single element making a car, have no environmental controls, no pollution controls, and no retirement and you don't care about anything but making money, there will be a giant sucking sound going south. So if the people send me to Washington, the first thing I'll do is study that 2,000 page agreement and make sure it's a two-way street. One last point here, I've called, as I said it, I was dumb and didn't understand it, so I called a who's who, the folks have been around it, and I said, well, I want everybody to go south, they said, we'll be disruptive, I said for how long, I finally got them up for 12 to 15 years, and I said, well, how does it stop being disruptive? And that is when their jobs come up from a dollar an hour to $6 an hour, and ours go down to $6 an hour, then it's leveled again, but in the meantime, you've wrecked the country

with these kinds of deals. We've got to cut it out. Thank you, Mr. Perot, I see that the president has stood up, so he must have something to say about this. So Carol, the thing that saved us in this global economic slowdown has been our exports, so what I'm trying to do is increase our exports, and if indeed all the jobs we're going to move south because they're lower wages, they're lower wages now, and they haven't done that. And so I have just negotiated with the president of Mexico, the North American Free Trade Agreement, and the Prime Minister of Canada, I might end, and I won't have more of these free trade agreements, because export jobs are increasing, far faster than any jobs that may have moved overseas. That's a scare tactic, because it's not that many. But anyone who's here, we want to have more jobs here, and the way to do that is to increase our exports. Some believe in protection. I don't.

I believe in free and fair trade, and that's the thing that saved us. And so I will keep on as president trying to get a successful conclusion to the gat round, the big euro-guy round of trade, which will really open up markets for our agriculture particularly. I want to continue to work after we get this NAFTA agreement ratified this coming year. I want to get one with Eastern Europe. I want to get one with Chile, and free and fair trade is the answer, not protection. And as I say, we've had tough economic times, and it's exports that have saved us, exports that have built. Governor Clinton. I'd like to answer the question, because I've actually been a governor for 12 years, so I've known a lot of people who've lost their jobs because of jobs moving overseas, and I know a lot of people whose plants have been strengthened by increasing exports. The trick is to expand our export base and to expand trade on terms that are fair to us. It is true that our exports to Mexico, for example, have gone up, and our trade deficits gone down.

It's also true that just today a record high trade deficit was announced with Japan. So what is the answer? Let me just mention three things very quickly. Number one, make sure that other countries are as open to our markets as our markets are to them. And if they're not, have measures on the books that don't take forever in the day to implement. Number two, change the tax code. There are more deductions in the tax code for shutting plants down and moving overseas, and there are for modernizing plant and equipment here. Our competitors don't do that. Impicize and subsidize modernizing plant and equipment here, not moving plants overseas. Number three, stop the federal government's program that now gives low interest loans and job training funds to companies that will actually shut down and move to other countries, but we won't do the same thing for plants that stay here. So more trade, but on fair terms, and favor investment in America. Thank you. I think we have a question over here. In the real world, that is outside of Washington, D.C., compensation and achievement are based on goals to find and achieve.

The deficit is my question is about the deficit. Would you define in specific dollar goals how much you would reduce the deficit in each of the four years of a Clinton administration and then enter into a legally binding contract with the American people that if you did not achieve those goals that you would not seek a second term? Answer yes or no, and then comment on your answer please. No, and here's why. And I'll tell you exactly why, because the deficit now has been building up for 12 years. I'll tell you exactly what I think can be done. I think we can bring it down by 50% in four years and grow the economy. Now I could get rid of it in four years in theory on the books now, but to do it, you'd have to raise taxes too much and cut benefits too much to people who need them and it would even make the economy worse. Mr. Perot will tell you, for example, that the expert he hired to analyze his plan says that it will bring the deficit down in five years, but it will make unemployment bad for four more years.

So my view is, sir, you have to increase investment, grow the economy, and reduce the deficit by controlling health care costs, prudent reductions in defense, cuts in domestic programs, and asking the wealthiest Americans and foreign corporations to pay their fair share of taxes, and investing in growing this economy. I ask everybody, look at my economic ideas, nine Nobel Prize winners, and over 500 economists and hundreds of business people, including a lot of the public, and said, this is the way you got to go. If you don't grow the economy, you can't get it done. But I can't foresee all the things that will happen, and I don't think a president should be just solely on the deficit. Let me also say we're having an election today. You'll have a shot at me in four years, and you can vote me right out if you think I've done a lousy job. And I would welcome you to do that. Mr. President. Well, I got a little confused here because I don't see how you can grow the deficit down by raising people's taxes. You see, I don't think the American people are taxed too little. I think they're taxed too much.

I went for one tax increase, and I want to make a mistake. I admit it. I said that wasn't the right thing to do. Governor Clinton's program wants to tax more and spend more, $150 billion in new taxes, spend another $220. I don't believe that's the way to do it. There's some things that will help. Give us a balanced budget amendment. He always talks about Arkansas having a balanced budget, and they do. But he has a balanced budget amendment. Have to do it. I'd like the government to have that. And I think it would discipline not only the Congress, which needs it, but also the executive branch. I'd like to have what 43 governors have, the line item veto. So if the Congress can't cut, and we've got a reckless spending Congress, let the president have a shot at it by wiping out things that are pork barrel or something of that nature. I'd like, I've proposed another one. Some sophisticated think it may be a little gimmicky. I think it's good. It's a check-off. It says to you as a taxpayer, so you're going to pay a tax of $1,000 or something. You can check 10% of that if you want to, and in one box, and that 10%, $100, or if you pay in 10,000, whatever it is, $1,000, check it off and make the government.

Make it lower the deficit by that amount. And if the Congress won't do it, if they can't get together and negotiate how to do that, then you'd have a sequester across the board. You'd exempt social security. I don't want a tax or touch social security. I'm the president that said, hey, don't mess with social security, and we haven't. So I believe we need to control the growth of mandatory spending back to this gentleman's question. That's the main growing thing in the economy in the budget. The whole, the program that the president, two-thirds of the budget, I as president, never get to look at, never get to touch. We've got to control that growth to inflation and population increase. But not raise taxes on the American people now. I just don't believe that would stimulate any kind of growth at all. How about you, Mr. Perot? Well, with $4 trillion in debt, we're going into debt, an additional $1 billion, a little more than $1 billion every working day of the year.

Now, the thing I love about, I'm just a businessman, I was down in Texas, taking care of business, 10 into my family. This situation got some bad, and I decided I'd better get into it. American people asked me to get into it. But I just find it fascinating that while we sit here tonight, we were going to debt an additional $50 billion in an hour and a half. Now, it's not the Republicans fault, of course, it's not the Democrats fault, and what I'm looking for is who did it. Now, they're the two folks involved, so it makes you put them together, they did it. Now, the facts are, we have to fix it. We're leaving. I'm here tonight for these young people up here in the balcony from this college. When I was a young man, when I got out of the Navy, I had multiple job offers. Young people with high grades can't get a job. People, the 18 to 24-year-old high school graduates, 10 years ago, were making more than they are now, though we were down to 18% of them were making, 18 to 24-year-olds were making less than 12,000.

Now, that's up to 40%. And what's happened in the meantime, the dollar's gone through the floor. And who's fault is that? Not the Democrats, not the Republicans, somewhere out there, there's an extra terrestrial that's doing this to us, I guess. And everybody says they take responsibility, somebody somewhere has to take responsibility for this. Put it to your bluntly, American people. If you want me to be your president, we're going to face up problems, we'll deal with the problems, we'll solve our problems, we'll pay down our debt, we'll pass on the American dream to our children, and I will not leave our children a situation that they have today. When I was a boy, it took two generations to double the standard living, today it will take 12 generations. Okay. Our children will not see the American dream because of this debt that somebody somewhere dropped off. You're all wonderful speakers, and I know you have lots more to add, but I've talked to this audience, and they have lots of questions on other topics. Can we move to another topic, please? We have one up here, I think. Yes, I'd like to address all the candidates with this question. The amount of time the candidates have spent in this campaign, crashing their opponents character, and their programs is depressingly large.

Why can't your discussions and proposals reflect the genuine complexity and the difficulty of the issues to try to build a consensus around the best aspects of all proposals? Who wants to take that one? Mr. Perot, you have an answer for everything, Dush. Go right ahead, sir. No, I don't have an answer for everything. As you all know, I've been buying 30-minute segments to talk about issues. And tomorrow night on NBC from 1030 to 11 Eastern, we're going to talk about how you pay the debt down. So we're going to come right down to that one. See, we'll be on again Saturday night, eight to nine o'clock on ABC, so. Okay, okay. This is time for a family. Okay, finally. I couldn't agree with you more. Couldn't agree with you more. And I have said again and again and again, let's get off of my dressing. Let's get off personalities and let's talk about jobs, healthcare, crime, the things that concern the American people. I'm spending my money, not pack money, not foreign money, my money to take this message to the people.

Thank you, Mr. Perot, so that seems directed. He would say it's you gentlemen that have been doing that. Mr. Clinton, Governor Clinton, how do you owe President Bush? How would you like to respond? Well, first place, I believe that character is a part of being president. I think you have to look at it. I think that has to be a part of candidate for president or being president. In terms of programs, I've submitted what four different budgets to the United States Congress in great detail. Or so heavy, they give you a, you know, broken back and everything in there says what I am for. Now I've come out with a new agenda for America's renewal, a plan that I believe really will help stimulate the growth of this economy. My record on world affairs is pretty well known because I've been president for four years, so I feel I've been talking issues. You know, nobody likes who shot John, but I think the first negative campaign running this election with my Governor Clinton. And I'm not going to sit there and be a punching bag.

I'm going to stand up and say, hey, listen, here's my side of it. But character is an important part of the equation. The other night, Governor Clinton raised my, I don't know if you saw the debate the other night that suffered through that. Well, he raised a question of my father. It was a good line, well rehearsed and well delivered. But he raised a question of my father and said, well, your father, Prescott Bush, was against McCarthy. You should be ashamed of yourself, McCarthyism. I remember something my dad told me. I was 18-year-old going to Penn station to go on into the Navy. He said, write your mother, which I faithfully did. He said, serve your country. My father was an honor duty in country, man. And he said, tell the truth. And I've tried to do that in public life, all through it. And that has says something about character. My argument with Governor Clinton, you can call it mud wrestling, but I think it's fair to put it in focus is, I am deeply troubled by someone who demonstrates

an organizer's demonstration in a foreign land when his country is at war. Probably a lot of kids here disagree with me, but that's what I feel. That's what I feel passionately about. I'm thinking of Ross Perot's running mate sitting in the jail. How would he feel about it? But maybe that's generational, I don't know. But the big argument I have with the governor on this is this taking different positions on different issues. Trying to be one thing to one person here that's opposing the NAFTA agreement, and then for it what we call waffling. And I do think that you can't turn the White House into the waffle house. You got to say what you're for. And you've got to, and I, President, I'm getting time queues and with all the respect that I don't want. Governor Clinton, I get wound up to it, if you want to. Yes, you do. Let me say, first of all, to you that I believe so strongly in the question you asked that I suggested this format tonight.

I started doing these formats a year ago in New Hampshire. And I found that we had huge crowds because all I did was let people ask questions and I try to give very specific answers. I also had a program starting last year. I've been disturbed by the tone in the tenor of this campaign. I thank goodness the networks have a fact check so I don't have to just go blue in the face anymore. Mr. Bruce said once again tonight I was going to have a $150 billion tax increase when Mr. Quail said that, all the networks said that's not true. He's got over $100 billion of tax cuts and incentives. So I'm not going to take up your time tonight. But let me just say this. We'll have a debate in four days and we can talk about this character thing again. The Washington Post ran along at a turtle the day saying they couldn't believe Mr. Bruce was making character an issue. And they said he was the greatest quote political chameleon for changing his positions of all time. Now I don't want to get into that. What do you want me to do? Let's don't you don't have to believe that. Here's my point. I'm not interested in his character.

I want to change the character of the presidency. And I'm interested in what we can trust him to do and what you can trust me to do and what you can trust Mr. Perot to do for the next four years. So I think you're right and I hope the rest of the night belongs to you. May I talk to this audience before you gentlemen came and I ask them about how they felt about the tenor of the campaign. Would you like to let them know what you thought about that? When I said are you pleased without the campaign's been going? Who wants to say why you don't like the way the campaign is going? We have a gentleman back here. And forgive the notes here but I'm showing camera. The focus of my work is domestic media or is meeting the needs of the children that I work with by way of their parents and not the wants of their parents. And I asked the three of you how can we as symbolically the children of the future president expect the two of you the three of you to meet our needs.

The needs in housing and crime and you name it as opposed to the wants of your political spin doctors and your political parties. So your question is can we focus on the issues and not the personalities and the mud? I think there is a need if we can take a poll here with the folks from Gallup perhaps. I think there is a real need here to focus at this point on the needs. How do you respond? How do you gentlemen respond to? I agree with him. Let's do it. Let's do it. Let's talk about programs for children. Could we cross our hearts and sound silly here because we make a commitment. You know we're not under oath at this point but could you make a commitment to the to the citizens of the United States to meet our needs and we have many and and not yours again. I you know I repeat that that it's a real need I think that we all have. I think it depends how you define it I mean I I think in general let's talk about these let's talk about these issues let's talk about the programs but in the presidency a lot it goes

into it caring is goes into it that's not particularly specific strength goes into it that's not specific standing up against aggression that's not specific in terms of a program this is what a president has to do so I in principle well I'll I'll take your point and think we ought to discuss child care or whatever else it is and you two go ahead close we're all excited to hand up just no hedge is no way of saying it but I'll take the pledge because I know the American people want to talk about issues and not tabloid journalism so I'll take the pledge and we'll stay on the issues now just for the record I don't have any spend doctors I don't have any speech writers probably shows I make those charts you see on television that show now but you don't have to wonder if it's me talking take what you see is what you get if you don't like it you got two other choices right oh wait a minute I want to say just one thing now Ross and fairness the idea is

I express or mine I've worked on these things for 12 years and I'm the only person up here who hasn't been part of Washington in any way for the last 20 years so I don't want the implication to be that somehow everything we say just cooked up and put in our head by somebody else I work 12 years very hard as a governor on the real problems of real people I'm just as sick as you are by having to wake up and figure out how to defend myself every day I never thought I'd ever be involved in anything like this very briefly yes very pretty and I don't have any foreign money in my campaign I don't have any foreign lobbyists on leaving my campaign I don't have any pack money in my campaign I got five and a half million hardworking people who put me on the ballot and I belong to them okay and they want or interested in what you're interested in I take the pledge I've already taken the pledge on cutting the deficit in half I never got to say that there's a great young leader leave college students young people who don't want us to spend their money I took the pledge we cut it out thank you we have a question here yes I would like to get a response from all three

gentlemen and the question is what are your plans to improve the physical infrastructure of this nation which includes the water system the sewer system my transportation systems etc thank you the cities who's going to fix the cities and how we glad to take a shot at it please I'm not I'm not sure that um can I could understand if you haven't seen this because there's been a lot of human cry we passed this year the most farthest looking uh transportation bill in the history of this country since Eisenhower started the interstate highways 150 billion dollars from proving the infrastructure that happened when I was president and so I am very proud of the way that came about and I think it's a very very good beginning uh like mr pro I am concerned about the deficits and 150 billion is a lot of money but it's awful hard to say we're going to go out and spend more money when we're

trying to get the deficit down but I I would cite that as a major accomplishment we hear all the negatives when you're president you expect this everybody's running against the incumbent they can do better everyone knows that but here's something that we can take great pride in because it really does get to what you're talking about our home initiative our home ownership initiative hope that past the congress is a good start for having people own their own homes instead of living in these deadly tenements our enterprise zones that we hear a lot of lip service about in congress would bring jobs into the inner city there's a good program and I need the help of everybody across this country to get it passed in substantial way by the congress when we went out to south central in Los Angeles some of you may remember the rites there I went out there I went to a boys club and everyone up the boys club leaders the ministers all of them are saying past enterprise zones we go back to Washington and very difficult to get it through the congress but there's going to be a

new congress no one likes gridlock there's going to be new congress because the old one I don't want to get this man mad at me but there was a post office scandal and a bank scandal you can have a lot of new members of congress and then you can sit down and say help me do what we should for the cities help me pass these programs Mr. President our truth threatening to veto the the bill the urban aid bill that included enterprise zones sure but the problem is you get so many things included in a great big bill that you have to look at the overall good that's the problem with our system if you had a line item veto you could knock out the pork you could knock out the tax increases and you could do what the people want and that is create enterprise zone governor Clinton you're chomping at the bit that bill pays for these urban enterprise zones by asking the wealthiest Americans to pay a little more and that's why he wants to veto it just like you vetoed an earlier bill this year this is not mud sling this is fact sling a bill early this year this is facts that that would have given investment tax credits and other incentives to

reinvest in our cities in our country but it asked the wealthiest Americans to pay a little more Mr. Perot wants to do the same thing I agree with him I mean we agree with that let me tell you specifically what my plan does my plan would dedicate 20 billion dollars a year in each of the next four years for investments and new transportation communications environmental cleanups and new technologies for the 21st century and we would target it especially in areas that have been either depressed or which have lost a lot of defense related jobs there are 200,000 people in California for example who've lost their defense related jobs they ought to be engaged in making high speed rail they ought to be engaged in breaking ground and other technologies doing waste recycling clean water technology and things of that kind we can create millions of jobs in these new technologies more than we're going to lose in defense if we target it but we're investing a much smaller percentage of our income and the things you just ask about then all of our major competitors and our wealth growth is going down as a result of it's making the country

poorer which is why I answered the gentleman the way I did before we have to both bring down the deficit and get our economy going through these kinds of investments in order to get the kind of wealth and jobs and incomes we need in America Mr. Perot what about your plans for the cities you want to tackle the economy and the deficit first first you've got to have money to pay for these things so you've got to create jobs they're all kinds of waste to create jobs in inner city now I'm not a politician but I think I could go to Washington in a week and get everybody holding hands and get this bill signed because I talked to the Democratic leaders and they wanted I talked through public and leaders and they wanted but since they are bred from childhood to fight with one another they're rather than get results you know I would be glad to drop out and spend a little time and see if we couldn't build some bridges now results is what counts the president can't order at Congress around Congress can't order the president around that's not bad for a guy that's never been there right but you have to work together now I have talked to the chairman of the committees that warp this they're Democrats the president wants it but we can't get it

because we sit here in gridlock because it's a campaign here we didn't fund a lot of other things this year like the savings and loan mass that's another story we're going to pay a big price for right after the election the facts are though the facts are the American people are hurting these people are hurting in the inner cities we're shipping the low paying job quote low paying jobs overseas what are low paying jobs textile shoes things like that do we say are yesterday's industries they're tomorrow's industries in the inner city let me say in my case if I'm out of work I'll cut grass tomorrow to take care of my family I'll be happy to make shoes I'll be happy to make clothing I'll make sausage you just give me a job put those jobs in the inner cities instead of doing diplomatic deals and shipping them to China where prison labor does the work Mr. Perot everybody thought you won the first debate because you were plain speaking and you made it sound oh so simple we'll just do it what makes you think that you're going to be able to get the Democrats and Republicans together any better than these guys if you ask me if I could fly a fly to plane or launcher being astronaut I can't I spent my life creating jobs at something I know how

to date and very simply in the inner city they're starved see small businesses the way to jump start the inner city not are you answering my question you want jobs the inner city you want jobs the inner city as I know I want you to tell me how you're going to be able to get the Republicans and Democrats in Congress work together better than well two gentlemen I've listened to both sides and if they would talk to one another instead of throwing rocks I think we could get a lot done and among other things I would say okay over here in this Senate committee to the chairman who is anxious to get this bill passed the president who's anxious I'd say rather than just yelling at one another why don't we find out where we apart try to get together get the bill passed and give the people the benefits and not play party politics right now and I think the press would follow that so closely that probably they would get it done that's the way I would do it I doubt if they'll give me the chance but I will drop everything and go work on it okay I have a question here my question was originally for governor Clinton but I think I would welcome a response from all

three candidates as you are aware crime is rampant in our cities and in the Richmond area and I'm sure it's happened elsewhere 12 year olds are carrying guns to school and I'm sure when our founding fathers erode the constitution they did not mean for the right to bear arms to apply to 12 year olds so I'm asking where do you stand on gun control and what do you plan to do about it governor Clinton I support the right to keep in bear arms I live in a state where over half the adults have hunting and fishing licenses or both but I believe we have to have some way of checking handguns before they're sold to check the criminal history the mental health history the age of people who are behind them therefore I support the Brady bill which would impose a national waiting period unless and until a state did what only Virginia has done now which is to automate its

records that once you automate your records then you don't have to have a waiting period but at least you can check I also think we should have frankly restrictions on assault weapons whose only purpose is to kill we need to give the police a fighting chance in our urban areas where the gangs are building up the third thing I would say it doesn't bear directly on gun control but it's very important we need more police on the street there is a crime bill which would put more police on the street which was killed for this session by a filibuster in the senate mostly by republican senators and I think it's a shame it didn't pass I think it should be made the law but it had the Brady bill in it the waiting period I also believe that we should offer college scholarships to people who will agree to work them off as police officers and I think as we reduce our military forces we should let people earn military retirement by coming out and working as police officers there 30 years ago there were three police officers on the street for every crime today there are three crimes for every police officer in the communities which have had real success putting police

officers near schools where kids carry weapons to get the weapons out of the schools are on the same blocks you've seen crime go down in Houston there's been a 15% drop in the crime rate in the last year because of the work the mayor did there in increasing the police force so I know it can work I've seen it happen thank you president Bush I think you put your finger on a major problem I talk about strengthening the American family and it's very hard to strengthen the family if people are scared to walk down to the corner store and you know send their kid down to get a loaf of bread it's very hard I have been fighting for very strong and I crime legislation habeas corpus reform so you don't have these endless appeals so when something somebody gets sentenced hey this is for real I've been fighting for changes in the exclusionary rules so if an honest cop stop somebody it makes a technical mistake the criminal doesn't doesn't go away I'll probably get into a fight in this room with some but I happen to think that we need stronger death penalties for those that

kill police officers for genius on the lead in this as governor Clinton properly said on this identification system for firearms I am not for national registration of firearms some of the states that have the toughest anti gun laws have the highest levels of crime I am for the right as the governor says I'm sportsman and I don't think you ought to eliminate all kinds of weapons but my I I was not for the bill that he was talking about because it was not tough enough on the criminal I'm very pleased that the fraternal order of police and little rock arc and so endorsed me because I think they see I'm trying to strengthen the anti crime legislation we've got more money going out for local police than than any previous administration so we've got to get it under control and there's one last thing point I'd make drugs we have got to win our national strategy against drugs the fight against drugs we're making some progress doing a little better on the interdiction we're not doing as well amongst the amongst the the people that get to be habitual

drug users the good news is and I think it's true enrichment a teenage use is down of cocaine substantially 60% in the last couple of years so we're making progress but until we get that one done we're not going to solve the neighborhood crime problem Mr. Perot there are young black males in America dying it unprecedented grace yes I'm that homicide is the leading cause of death among young black males 15 to 24 years of old what are you going to do to get the guns off the street on any program and this includes crime you'll find we have all kinds of great plans lying around that never get enacted into law and implemented if I don't care what it is with competitiveness health care crime you name it Brady Bill I agree with that it's a timid step in the right direction but it won't fix it so why pay us a law that won't fix it now what it really boils down to is can you live we have become so preoccupied with the rights of

the criminal that we've forgotten the rights of the innocent and in our country we have evolved to a point where we've put millions of innocent people in jail because you go to the poor neighborhoods and they put bars on their windows and bars on their doors and put themselves in jail to protect the things that they acquire legitimately now that's where we are we have got to become more concerned about people who play by the rules and get the balance we require this is going to take first building a consensus at grassroots America right from the bottom up the American people have got to say they want it and at that point we can pick from a variety of plans and develop new plans and the way you get things done is bury yourselves in the room with one another put together the best program take it to American people use electronic town hall the kind of thing you're doing here tonight build the consensus and then do it and then go on to the next one but don't just sit here slow dancing for four years doing nothing thank you thank you mr. Perot we have a question up here please state your position on term limits and if you you are in favor of them how

will you get them enacted any order I'd be glad to respond thank you I strongly support term limits for members of the United States Congress I believe it would return the government closer to the people the way that Ross Perot is talking about the president's terms are limited to two eight total of eight years what's wrong with lermit limiting the terms of members of congress to twelve congress has gotten kind of institutionalized for 38 years one party has controlled the house of representatives in the result sorry little post office that can't you know can't do anything right in a bank that has more overdrafts than all the chase banking city bank put together we've got to do something about it and I think you get a certain arrogance bureaucratic arrogance if people stay there too long and so I am favor strongly favor term limits and you how to get them

passed send us some people little that'll pass the idea and I think you will I think the American people want it now every place I go I talk about it and I think they want it done actually you'd have to have some amendments to the constitution because the way the constitution read thank you governor Clinton I know they're popular but I'm against them I'll tell you why I believe number one it would pose a real problem for a lot of smaller states in the congress would have enough trouble now making sure their interests are heard number two I think it would increase the influence of unelected staff members in the congress who have too much influence already I want to cut the size of the congressional staffs but I think you're going to have too much influence there with people who were never elected who have lots of expertise number three if the people really have a mind to change they can you're going to have 120 to 150 new members of congress now let me tell you what I favor instead I favor strict controls on how much you can

spend running for congress strict limits on political action committees requirements that people running for congress appear in open public debates like we're doing now if you did that you could take away the it comments advantage because challengers like me would have a chance to run against and comments like him for for house races and senate races and then the voters could make up their own mind without being subject to an unfair fight so that's how I feel about it and I think we had the right kind of campaign reform we'd get the changes you want mr. perro would you like to address term limitation yes let me do it on first on a personal level if the american people sending up to do this job behind tend to be there one term I did not intend to spend one minute of one day thinking about re-election and as a matter of principle in my situation is unique and I understand it I would take absolutely no compensation I go is there servant now I have set as strong an example as I can then at that point when we sit down over Capitol Hill tomorrow night I'm going to be talking about government reform it's a long subject you would let me finish tonight

if you want to hear it you get it tomorrow night but the party is sorry just a little silly and if you're here tomorrow night but we have got to reform government if you put term limits in and don't reform government you won't get the benefit you thought it takes both so we need to do the reforms and the term limits and after we reform it it won't be a lifetime career opportunity good people will go serve and then go back to their homes and not become far and obvious and cash in at 30 thousand bucks a month and then take time off to run some president's campaign this they're all nice people they're just in a bad system I don't think they're any villains but boys the system rotten thank you very much we have a question over here I'd like to ask governor Clinton do you tribute the rising cost of health care to the medical profession itself or do you think the problem lies elsewhere and what specific proposals do you have to tackle this problem I've had more people talk to me about their health care problems I guess in anything else all across America you know people who glossed their jobs lost their businesses

had to give up their jobs because of sick children and so let me try to answer you in this way let's start with a premise we spend 30 percent more of our income than any nation on earth on health care and yet we ensure fewer people we have 35 million people that any insurance at all and I see them all the time 100 thousand Americans a month have lost their health insurance just in the last four years so if you analyze where we're out of line with other countries you come up with the following conclusions number one we spend at least $60 billion a year on insurance administrative cost bureaucracy and government regulation that wouldn't be spent in any other nation so we have to to have in my judgment a drastic simplification of the basic health insurance policies of this country be very comprehensive for everybody employers would cover their employees government would cover the unemployed number two I think you have to take on specifically the insurance companies and require them to

make some significant change in the way they rate people in the big community pools I think you have to tell the pharmaceutical companies they can't keep raising drug prices at three times of rate of inflation I think you have to take on medical fraud I think you have to help doctors stop practicing defensive medicine I've recommended that our doctors be given a set of national practice guidelines and that if they follow those guidelines that raises the presumption that they didn't do anything wrong I think you have to have a system of primary preventive clinics in our inner cities in our rural areas so people can have access to health care the key is to control the cost and maintain the quality to do that you need a system of managed competition where all of us are covered in big groups and we can choose our doctors in our hospitals lost a ride range but there is an incentive to control costs and I think there has to be I think Mr. Pearl and I agree on this there has to be a national commission of health care providers and health care consumers that set ceilings to keep health costs in line with inflation plus population growth now let me say some people say we can't do this but Hawaii does it they cover 98 percent

of their people and their insurance premiums are much cheaper than the rest of America and sodas Rochester New York they now have a plan to cover everybody and their premiums are two thirds of the rest of the country this is very important it's a big human problem and a devastating economic problem for America and I'm going to send a plan to do this within the first 100 days of my presidency it's terribly important thank you sorry to cut your short but president bush health care reform can I just have to say so I don't want to stampede Ross was very articulate across the country I don't want anybody to stampede to cut the president's salary off all together Barbara sitting over here and I but what I have proposed 10 percent cut downsize the government and we can get that done she asked the question I think is whether the health care profession was it was to blame no one thing to blame is these malpractice lawsuits they are breaking the system it costs 20 to 25 billion dollars a year and I want to see those

outrageous claims capped doctors don't dare to deliver babies sometimes because they're afraid that somebody's going to sue them people don't dare medical practitioners to help somebody along the highway but they're hurt because they're afraid that some lawyers going to come along and get a big lawsuit so you can't blame the practitioners or the health profit and my program is this keep the government as far out of it as possible make insurance available to the poorest of the poor poor through vouchers next range in the income bracket through through tax credits and get on about the business of pooling insurance a great big company can buy Ross got a good size company been very successful he can buy insurance cheaper than mom and pop store on the corner but if those mom and pop stores all get together and pool they too can bring the cost of insurance down so I want to keep the quality of health care that means keep government out of it I want to do bad I don't like this idea of these boards it all sounds to me like you're going to

have some government setting price I want competition and I want to pool the insurance and take care of it that way and have oh here's the other point I think medical care should go with the person if you leave a business I think your insurance should go with you to some other business you shouldn't be worrying if you get a new job as to whether that's going to and part of our plan is to make it what they call portable big word but that means if you're working for the Jones company go to the Smith company your insurance goes with you I think it's a good program I'm really excited about getting it done too Mr. Perron we have the most expensive health care system in the world 12 percent of our gross national product goes to health care our industrial competitors who are beating us in competition spend less and have better health care Japan spends a little over six percent of its gross national product Germany spends eight percent it's fascinating you brought a front row box seat and you're not happy with your health care and you're saying night we've got bad health care but very expensive health care it's folks here's why go home and look in the mirror you own this country but you have no voice in it the way it's organized now and if you

want to have a high-risk experience comparable to bungee jumping go into Congress sometime when they're working on this kind of legislation when the lobbyists are running down up and down the halls where your safety toes shoes when you go and as a private citizen believe me you are looked on as a major nuisance the facts are you now have a government that comes at you you're supposed to have a government that comes from you now they're all kinds of good ideas brilliant ideas terrific ideas on health care none of them ever get implemented because let me give you an example senator runs every six years he's got to raise 20 thousand bucks a week to have enough money to run who's he got to listen to us or the folks running up and down the aisles with money the lobbyists the pack money he listens to them who do they represent health care industry not us now you've got to have a government that comes from you again you've got to reassert your ownership in this country and you've got to completely reform our government and at that point there just be like apples falling

out of a tree the programs will be good because the elected officials will be listening to I said dear the night I was all ears and I would listen to any good idea I think we ought to do plastic surgery on a lot of these guys so that they're all ears too and listen to you then you get what you want and shouldn't you you pay for it why shouldn't you get what you want as opposed to what some lobbyists cuts a deal rights the little piece of the law he goes through that's the way the games play about did you change it you're going to be unhappy thank you governor Clinton you wanted one brief point we have elections so people can make decisions about this the point I want to make to you is bipartisan commission reviewed my plan and the bush plan and conclude there were many Republicans as democratic health care experts on it they concluded that my plan would cover everybody and his would leave two twenty seven million behind by the year 2000 and that my plan in the next twelve years would save two point two trillion dollars in public and private money to reinvest in this economy and the average family would save twelve hundred dollars a year

under the plan that I offered without any erosion in the quality of health care so I ask you to look at that and and you have to vote for somebody with the plan that's what you have elections for if people say well he got elected to do this then the congress says okay I'm going to do it that's what the election was about brief governor Clinton thank you we have a question right here yes how has a national debt personally affected each of your lives and if it hasn't how can you honestly find a cure for the economic problems of the common people if you have no experience in what's ailing them may ask may I answer well mr. who do you want to start with of course it calls me to disrupt my private life and my business to get involved in this activity that's how much I care about it and believe me if you knew my family and if you knew the private life I have you would agree in a minute that that's a whole lot more fun than getting involved in politics but I have lived the American dream I came from very modest background nobody's been

lucky than I've been all the way across the spectrum and the greatest riches of all of my life and children just to it's true of any family but I want all the children I want these young people up here to be able to start with nothing but an idea like I did and build a business but they've got to have a strong basic economy and if you're in debt you're it's like having a ball in chain around you I'm I just figure as lucky as I've been I went to them and I went to the future generations on a very personal basis I went to my children and grandchildren well I think the national data affects everybody uh obviously it has has a lot to do with interest trades it hasn't she saying you personally personal basis how has it affected you has it affected you personally well I'm sure it has I love my grandchildren I want to think that I want to think think that they're going to be able to afford an education I think that that's an important part of being a parent if the question if you're maybe I won't get it wrong are you suggesting that if

somebody has means that the national debt doesn't affect them oh what I'm saying I'm not sure I get it help me with the question and I'll find answer I've had friends that have been laid off in the jobs I know people who cannot afford to pay them mortgage on their homes their car payment I have personal problems with the national debt but how has it affected you and if you have no experience in it how can you help us if you don't know what we're feeling she means more the recession the economic problems today the country faces rather than you ought to you ought to be in the White House for a day and hear what I hear and see what I see and read the mail I read and touch the people that I touched from time to time I was in the low max AME church it's a black church just outside of Washington DC and I read in the in the bulletin about teenage pregnancies about the difficulty that families are having to medians make ends meet I talk to parents I mean you got to care everybody cares if people aren't doing well but I don't

think it I don't think it's fair to say you have an head cancer therefore you don't know what it's like I don't think it's fair to say you know whatever it is if you haven't been hit by it personally but everybody's affected by the debt because of the tremendous interest that goes into paying on that debt everything's more expensive everything comes out of your pocket in my pocket so it's it's that but I think in terms of the recession of course you feel it when you're president of the United States and that's why I'm trying to do something about it by stimulating the export vesting or better education systems thank you I'm glad to clarify tell me how it's affected you again you know people who lost their jobs lost their homes well I've been governor of a small state for 12 years I'll tell you how it's affected me every year Congress and the president sign laws it makes it makes us do more things it gives us less money to do it with I see people in my state middle-class people their taxes have gone up and Washington and their

services have gone down while the wealthy have gotten tax cuts I I have seen what's happened in this last four years when in my state when people lose their jobs there's a good chance I'll know them by their names when the factory closes I know the people who ran it when the businesses go bankrupt I know them and I've been out here for 13 months meeting in meetings just like this ever since October with people like you all over America people that have lost their jobs lost their livelihood lost their health insurance what I want you to understand is the national debt is not the only cause of that it is because of America has not invested in its people it is because we have not grown it is because we've had 12 years of trickle-down economics we've gone from first to 12th in the world in wages we've had four years where we produce no private sector jobs most people are working harder for less money than they were making 10 years ago it is because we're in the grip of a failed economic theory and this decision you're about to make better be about what kind of economic theory you want not just people saying I want to go fix it but what are we

going to do I think we have to do is invest in American jobs American education control American health care costs and bringing American people together again thank you governor Clinton we are a little more than halfway through this program and I'm glad that we're getting the diversity of questions that we are and I don't want to forget these folks on the wings over here so let's go over here to have a question my name is Ben Smith I work in the financial field counseling retirees and I'm personally concerned about three major areas one is the Social Security Administration where trust fund is projected to be insolvened by the year 2036 and we funded the trust fund with owl use in the former treasury bonds the pension guarantee fund which backs up our private retirement plans for retirees is projected to be bankrupt by the year 2026 not to mention the cutbacks by private companies and Medicare is projected to be bankrupt maybe as soon as 1997 and I would like from each of you a specific response as to what you intend to do for

retirees relative to these issues not generalities but specifics because I think they're very disturbing issues president Bush may we start with you well the Social Security you're an expert and I could I'm sure learn from you the details of the pension guarantee fund and the Social Security Social Security system was fixed about five years and I think it's projected out to be sound beyond that so at least we have time to work with it but on all of these things a sound economy is the only way to get it going growth in the economy is going to add to these add to the overall prosperity and wealth I can't give you a specific answer on pension guarantee fund all I know is that we have firm government credit to guarantee the pensions and that is very important but it's it's the full faith and credit of the United States in space in spite of our difficulties is still pretty good it's still in the most respected credit so I would simply say as these

dates get closer going to have to reorganize and reflex as we did with the Social Security Fund and I think that's the only answer but the most more immediate answer is to do with this lady was suggesting we do and that is to get this deficit down and get on without adding to the woes and then restructure one thing I've called for that has been stymied and I'll keep on working for it is a whole financial reform legislation it is absolutely essential in terms of bringing our banking system and credit system into the new age instead of having it living back in the dark ages and it's a big fight and I don't want to give my friend Ross another shot at me here but I am fighting with the Congress to get this through and you can't just go up and say I'm going to fix it you got some pretty strong well guys up there that argue with you but that's what the elections about I agree with the government that's what the election is about and sound fiscal policy is the best answer I think to the all the three problems you mentioned thank you Mr. Perot just on the broad issue here when you're trying to solve a problem you get the best plans you have

a raging debate about those plans then out of that debate with leadership comes consensus then and if the plans are huge and complex like health care I would urge you to implement pallet programs like the old Carbors says measure twice cut once you let's make sure this things as good as we all think it is at the end of the meeting then finally our government passes laws and freezes the plan in concrete anybody that's ever built a successful business will tell you you optimize optimize optimize after you put something into effect the reason Medicare and Medicaid or a mess is we foes them everybody knows how to fix them they're people all over the federal government if they could just touch it with a screwdriver could fix it now back over here say we've got a four trillion dollar debt and only in America would you have two point eight trillion of it or seventy percent of it financed five years or less now that's another thing for you to think about when you go home tonight you don't finance long term debt with short

term money why did our government do it to get the interest rates down a one percent increase in interest rates and that two point eight trillion dollars is twenty eight billion dollars a year now when you look at what Germany pays for money and what we don't pay for money you realize there's quite a spread right and you realize this is a temporary thing and there's going to be another sucking sound that runs our deficit through the roof you know when everybody's ducking it so I'm going to say it that we are not letting that surplus stay in the bank we are not investing that surplus like a pension fund we are spending that surplus to make the deficit look smaller to you then it really is now that's put you in jail in corporate America if you kept books that way but in what government it's just kind of the way things are that's because it comes at you not fun you now there that money needs to be they don't even pay interest on it they just write a note for the interest mr. Perot can you so now that that's important see do you want to fix the polymer sound like it I understand the importance of time but see here's how we get to this mess we're in this is just one of a thousand now then to nail it there's one way out a growing expanding

job base a growing expanding job base to generate the funds and the tax revenues to pay off the mess and rebuild America we got a double hit for if we're for that trillion dollars down we should have everything perfect but we don't we got to pay it off and build money to renew it build spend money to renew it and that's going to take a growing expanding job base that is priority one in this country for everybody that's breathing to work and I'd love to be out of workers and have to import them like some of our industrial this guy so I'm sorry I'm sorry and I don't want to sound bite you but we are trying to be fair to absolutely I apologize all right governor Clinton I think I remember the question and let me say first of all I want to answer your specific question but first of all we all agree that there should be a growing economy what you have to decide is who's got the best economic plan and we all have ideas out there and mr. Bush has a record so I don't want you to read my lips and I sure don't want you to read his I just I do hope you will

read our plans now specifically specifically one on Medicare it is not true that everyone knows how to fix it there are different ideas the Bush plan the pro plan the Clinton that we have different ideas I am convinced having studied health care for a year hard and talking to hundreds and hundreds of people all across America that you cannot control the cost of Medicare until you control the cost of private health care and public health care with managed competition sealing on cost and radical reorganization of the insurance markets you've got to do that we got to get those costs down number two with regard to social security that program a lot of you may not know this it produces a $70 billion surplus a year so security is in surplus $70 billion six increases in the payroll tax that means people with incomes of fifty one thousand dollars a year less pay a dish proportionally high share of the federal tax burden which is why I want some middle class

tax relief what do we have to do by the time the century turns we have got to have our deficit under control we have to work out of so that surplus is building up so when the baby boomers like me retire were okay number three on the pension funds I don't know as much about it but I will say that's what I would do is to bring in the pension experts of the country take a look at it and strengthen the pension requirements further because it's not just enough to have the guarantee we had a guarantee on the SNL's right we had a guarantee on what happened you picked up a $500 billion bill because of the dumb way the federal government deregulated so I think we are going to have to change and strengthen the pension requirements on private retirement plans thank you I think we have a question here on international affairs hopefully we've come to a position where we're in a new world order and I'd like to know what the candidates feel our position is in this new world order and what our responsibilities are as a superpower Mr. President

well we have come to that position since I became president 40 43 44 countries have gone democratic no longer totalitarian no longer living under dictatorship or communist rule this is exciting this is new world order to me means freedom and democracy I think we will have a continuing responsibility is the only remaining superpower to stay involved if we pull back in some isolation and say we don't have to do our share or more than our share anymore I believe you're just ask for conflagration that we'll get involved in in the future NATO for example has kept the peace for many many years and I want to see us keep fully staffed in NATO so we'll continue to guarantee the peace in Europe but the exciting thing is the fear of nuclear war is down and you hear all the bad stuff that's happened on my watch I hope people will recognize that this is something pretty good for mankind I hope they'll think it's good that democracy and freedom is on the move and

we're going to stay engaged as long as I'm president working to improve things you know it's so easy now to say hey cut out foreign aid we got a problem at home I think the United States has to still be have the Statue of Liberty as a symbol of caring for others we're right this very minute we're sending supplies in to help these little starving kids in Somalia we're trying to get work it's the United States that's taking the lead and in humanitarian aid into Bosnia we're doing this all around the world and yes we got problems at home and I think I got a good plan to help fix those problems at home but because of our leadership because we didn't listen to the freeze the nuclear freeze group do you remember freeze it back in about nineteen the late seventies freeze don't touch it we're going to lock it in now or else we'll have war president Reagan said no peace through strength it worked the Soviet Union is no more and now we're working to help them become totally democratic through the Freedom Support Act that I led on a great democratic ambassador

Bob Strauss over there Jim Baker all of us got this thing passed through cooperation Ross it worked with cooperation and you're for that I'm sure helping Russia become democratic so the new world order to meet means freedom and democracy keep engaged do not pull back into isolation and we are the United States and we have a responsibility to lead and to guarantee the security if it hadn't been for us Saddam Hussein would be sitting on top of freefests of the oil supply of the world and he'd have nuclear weapons in the only the United States could do that's give me care thank you mr. Perot well it's cost effective to help Russia succeed in its revolution it's pennies on the dollar compared to going back to cold war Russia's still very unstable they could go back to square one and worse they're still all the nuclear weapons are not dismantled I'm particularly concerned about the intercontinental weapons the ones he can hit us we've got agreements but they're still there with all his instability and breaking

into republics and all the middle eastern countries going over there and shopping for weapons we've got our work cut out for us so we need to stay right on top of that and constructively help them move toward democracy and capitalism we have to have money to do that we have to have our people at work see for 45 years we were preoccupied with a red army I suggest now that our number one preoccupation is red ink in our country and we've got to put our people back to work so that we can afford to do these things we want to do in Russia we cannot be the policeman for the world any longer we spend 300 billion a year defending the world Germany and Japan spend around 30 billion dollars a piece it's neat if I can get you to defend me and I can spend all my money building industry that's a home run for me coming out of war war to it made sense now the other superpowers need to do their part I close on this point you can't be a superpower unless you're an economic superpower if we're not an economic superpower where it used to be and we will no

longer be a force for good throughout the world and if nothing else gets you excited about rebuilding our industrial base maybe that will because it's job one is to put our people back to work governor Clinton the president mentions Saddam Hussein your vice president and you have had some words about the president and Saddam Hussein would you care to comment I'd rather answer a question first than I'll be glad to because the question you ask is important the end of the cold war brings an incredible opportunity for change wins the freedom blowing around the world Russia demilitarizing and it also requires us to maintain some continuity some bipartisan American commitment to certain principles and I would just say there are three things that I would like to say number one we do have to maintain the world's strongest defense we may differ about what the elements of that are I think the defense needs to be with fewer people in permanent armed services but with greater mobility on the land in the air and on the sea with

a real dedication and continuing development of high technology weaponry and well trained people I think we're going to have to work to stop the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction got to keep going until all those nuclear weapons in Russia are gone in the other republics number two if you don't rebuild the economic strength of this country at home we won't be a super power we can't have anymore instances like what happened when mr. Bush went to Japan and the Japanese prime minister said he felt sympathy for our country we have to be the strongest economic power in the world that's what got me into this race so we could rebuild the American economy and number three we need to be a force for freedom and democracy and we need to use our unique position to support freedom whether it's in Haiti or in China or in any other place wherever the seeds of freedom are sprouting we can't impose it but we need to nourish it and that's the kind of thing that I would do as president follow those three commitments into the future okay we have a question up there yes we've talked a lot tonight about creating jobs but we have an awful lot of

high school graduates who don't know how to read a ruler who cannot fill out an application for a job how can we create high paying jobs with the education system we have and what would you do to change it who would like to begin the education president go ahead yeah i'd be delighted to because you can't do it the old way you can't do it with the school bureaucracy controlling everything and that's why we have a new program that i hope people have heard about it's being worked now in 1700 communities bypass congress on this one Ross 1700 communities across the country it's called america 2000 and it literally says to the communities reinvent the schools not just not just the bricks and mortar but the curriculum and everything else think a new we have a concept called the new american school corporation where we're doing exactly that and so i don't i believe

that we got to get the power in the hands of the teachers not the teachers union what's happening up there okay and and and and so our america 2000 program also says this it says let's give parents the choice of a public private or public school public private or religious school and it works it works in Milwaukee democratic woman up there taking the lead in this the mayor up there on the program and the schools that are not chosen are improved competition does that so we've got to innovate through school choice we've got to innovate through this america 2000 program but she is absolutely right the the programs that we've been trying where you control everything and mandate it from washington don't work the governors and i i believe governor clinton was in on this but maybe i don't want to invoke him here but uh they come to me and they say please get the congress to stop passing so many mandates telling us how to control things we know better how to do it

in california or texas or wherever it is so this is what our program is all about and i believe it you're right on to something that if we don't change the education we're not going to be able to compete federal funding for education is up substantially pale grants are up but it isn't going to get the job done if we don't change k through 12 governor clinton first of all let me say that i spent more of my time and life on this in the last 12 years and any other issue 70 percent of my state's money goes to public schools and i was really honored when time magazine said that our schools had shown more improvement than any other state in the country except one other they named two states showing real strides forward in the 80s so i care a lot about this and i spent countless hours in schools but let me start with what you said i agree with some of what mr. bush said but it's nowhere near enough if we live in a world where what you earn depends on what you can learn where the average 18 year old will change jobs eight

times in a lifetime and where none of us can promise any of you that what you now do for a living is absolutely safe from now on nobody running can promise that there's too much change in the world so what should we do let me reel some things off real quick because you said you wanted specifics number one under my program we would provide matching funds to states to teach everybody with a job to read in the next five years and give everybody with a job the chance to get a high school diploma in big places on the job number two we would provide two year apprenticeship programs to high school graduates who don't go to college and community colleges are on the job number three we'd open the doors to college education the high school graduates without regard to income they could borrow the money and pay it back as a percentage of their income over the couple of years of service to our nation here at home number four we would fully fund the head start program to get little kids off to a good start in five i would have an aggressive program of school reform more choices in the i-favor public schools or these new charter schools we can talk about that if you

want i don't think we should spend tax money on private schools but i-favor public school choice and i-favor radical decentralization and giving more power to better trained principals and teachers with parent councils to control their schools those things would revolutionize american education and take us to the top economically thank you governor clinton what the question is what is it going to cost what is it going to cost in six years the i-budget all this in my budget and six years the college program would cost eight billion dollars over and above what the president student loan program cost four you pay three billion dollars for busted loans because we don't have an automatic recovery system and a billion dollars in bank fees so the net cost of the eight billion six years from now in a trillion plus budget not very much the other stuff all the other stuff i mentioned cost much less than that the head start program full funding would cost about five billion more and it's all covered in my budget from the the plans that i've laid out from raising taxes on families that then comes about two hundred thousand dollars and asking

foreign corporations to pay the same tax that american corporations do on the same income from a hundred forty billion dollars in budget cuts including what i think are very prudent cuts in the defense budget thank you mr. parole you on education please yes i've got scars to show for being around education reform and the first word you need to say in every city in state and just draw a line into saying that public schools exist for the benefit of the children you got to see a lot of people fall over because anytime you're spending a hundred ninety nine billion dollars a year somebody's getting it and the children get lost in the process so that's step one keep in mind in nineteen sixty when our schools were the envy of the world we were spending sixteen billion dollars on them now we spent more than any other nation in the world hundred ninety nine billion a year and ranked the bottom of the industrial as well in terms of education achievement one more time you bought a front row box seat and got a third rate performance it's the government that's not serving you by and large it should be local the more local the better interesting phenomena small towns have good schools big cities have terrible schools the best

people in a small town will serve on a school board you get into big cities is political patronage stepping stones you get the job give your relatives the janitors jobs at fifty seven thousand dollars a year more than the teachers make and with luck they clean the cafeteria once a week now you're paying for that those schools belong to you and we put up with that as long as you put up with that that's what you're going to get and these folks are just dividing up a hundred ninety nine billion bucks and children get lost if I could wish for one thing for great public schools it'd be a strong family unit in every home nothing will ever replace that you say what you're gonna do about that well the White House is a bully pulpit and I think we ought to be pounding on the table every day there's nothing the most efficient unit of government to all will ever know there's a strong loving family unit next thing you need small schools not big schools a little school everybody somebody individualism is very important these big factories everybody told me they were cost effective I did a study on it they're cost ineffective five thousand students why is a high school that big one reason sooner or later you get 11 more

boys it can run like the devil it weighs two hundred and fifty pounds and they might win district now that has nothing to do with learning secondly across taxes typically half the school day was non-academic pursuits in one place was thirty five percent in Texas you could have unlimited absences to go to livestock shows found a boy excuse me but you got this gives the flavor boy in Houston kept chicken in the bathtub in downtown Houston missed 65 days going to livestock shows finally had to come back in school the chicken lost his feathers that's the only way we got him back now that's your tax money being wasted now neighborhood schools it is terrible to bust a tiny little children across town and it is particularly terrible to take poor tiny little children and wait until the first grade and bust them across town to Mars where the children know their numbers know their letters have had every advantage in the first day that little child wants out I'll close on this you got to have wall class teachers wall class books if you ever got close to how textbooks were selected you wouldn't want to go back the second day I don't have time to tell you the stories no you don't if we don't fix this you're right we can't have the

industries of tomorrow unless we have the best educated workforce and here you've got for the disadvantaged children you've got to have early childhood development cheapest money will ever spend first contact should be with the mother when she's pregnant that little child needs to be loved and hugged and nurtured and made to feel special like your children were they learned to think well of poorly themselves in the first 18 months thank you thank you and within the first few years they learn how to learn or don't learn how to learn and if they don't they wind up in prison thank you for working in prison and it does to send them to Harvard I'll rest my case thank you president wish you wanted to I just had a word of clarification because of something governor Clinton said my school choice program GI Bill for kids does not take public money and give it a private schools it does what the GI Bill itself did when I came out of World War II takes public money and gives it to families or individuals to choose the school they want and where it's been done those schools like in Rochester those schools that weren't chosen find that they then compete and

do better so I I think it's worth a shot we've got a pilot program it ought to be tried school choice public private or religious not to the schools but to you know 46% of the teachers in Chicago public school teachers send their kids to private school now I think we ought to try to help families and see if it will do what I think make all schools better I just want to mention if I could just very briefly very briefly involving the parents in the preschool education their kids even if they're poor and uneducated can make a huge difference we have a big program in my state it teaches mothers our fathers to teach their kids to get ready for school it's the most successful thing we've ever done just a fact clarification real quickly we do not spend a higher percentage of our income on public education than every other country there are nine countries that spend more than we do on public education we spend more on education because we spend so much much more on colleges but if you look at public education alone and you take it into account the

fact that we have more racial diversity and more poverty it makes a big difference there are great public schools where there's public school choice accountability and brilliant principles I'll just mention one the Beasley Academic Center in Chicago I commend it to anybody it's as good as any private school in the country we have very little time left and it occurs to me that we have talked all this time and there has not been one question about some of the racial tensions and ethnic tensions in America is there anyone in this audience that would like to pose a question to the candidates on this yes what I'd like to know and this is to any of the three of you is aside from the recent accomplishments of your party aside from those accomplishments in racial representation and without citing any of your current appointments are successful elections when do you estimate your party will both nominate and elect an Afro-American and female

ticket to the presidency of the United States Governor Clinton why don't you answer that first well I don't have any idea but I hope it will happen sometime in my lifetime I believe that this country is electing more and more African Americans Latinos and Asian Americans who are representing districts that are themselves not necessarily of a majority of their race the American people are beginning to vote across racial lines and I hope it will happen more and more more and more women are being elected look at all these women senate candidates we have here and you know coordinate my mother my wife and my daughter this world to be a lot better place if women were running it most of the time I do think there are special experiences and judgments and backgrounds and understandings that women bring to this process by the way this this lady said here how have you been affected by the economy I mean women know what it's like to be paid an unequal amount for equal worth they know what it's like not to have flexible

working hours they know what it's like not to have family leave a child care so I think it would be a good thing for America that happened and I think it will happen in my lifetime okay I'm sorry we have just a little bit time left let's try to get responses from each of them President Bush or Mr. Bush we're running this year she'd be elected but both seasons too late you don't want us to mention appointees but when you see the quality of people in our administration see how Colin Powell performed I say administration he's in him you weren't impressed with the fact that he excuse me I'm extremely impressed but wouldn't that convince suggest to the American people then here's a quality person if he decided that he could automatically get the nomination of either part here huh I'm totally impressed with that I just want to know as when's your guess oh I see you mean time yeah I don't know starting after four years I think you'll see more I think you'll see more minority candidates and women candidates coming forward this is supposed to be the women's year of the women in the Senate let's see how they do I don't want to cut you off anymore but we

only have a minute left I have a fearless forecast unless he just won't do it Colin Powell will be on somebody's take it four years from now right right hey you you wanted to that said four years how about a woman now if he won't be a general waller would be a concern you say why do you keep picking picking military people these these are people that I just happen to know and have a high regard for I'm sure there are hundreds of others and that Dr. Lewis element absolutely yeah good man what about a woman oh okay I can I can think of many many absolute when all right just have about 100 day okay example Dr. Bernadine healy good National Institute of Health I've died I'll yield the floor name some more thank you thank you I I want to apologize to our audience because there were 209 people here and there were 209 questions we only got to a fraction of them and I'm sorry to those of you that didn't get to ask your questions but we must move to the

conclusion of the program it is time now for the two-minute closing statements and by prior agreement president Bush will go first I asked for an exception because I think we owe Carol Simpson a anybody can stand in between these three characters here and get the job done we owe her round of applause so don't take it out of my time I feel I feel strongly about it I don't want to come out of my time no but let me just say to the American people and in two and a half weeks we're going to choose who should sit in this oval office who to lead the economic recovery who to be the leader of the free world who to get the deficit down three ways to do that one is to raise taxes one is to reduce spending controlling that mandatory spending another one is to invest and save and stimulate growth I do not want to raise taxes I differ with the two here on that I just not going to do that I do believe that we need to control mandatory spending I think we need to invest and save more I believe that we need to educate better and retrain better I believe

that we need to export more so I'll keep working for export agreements where we can sell more abroad and I believe that we must strengthen the family we've got to strengthen the family now let me pose this question to America if in the next five minutes a television announcer came on and said there is a major international crisis there is a major threat to the world or in this country a major threat my question is who if you were appointed to name one of the three of us who would you choose who has the perseverance the character the integrity the maturity to get the job done I hope I'm that person thank you very very much thank you mr. president and now a closing statement from mr. Perot if the American people want to do it and not talk about it then they'll you know I'm one person all to consider if they just want to keep slow dancing and talk about it

and not do it I'm not your man I am was also oriented I am action oriented I've built my businesses getting things done in three months at my competitors took 18 months today everybody says you can't do that with Congress sure you can do that with Congress Congress is they're all good people they're all patriots but you got to link arms and work with them sure you'll have arguments sure you'll have fights we have them all day every day but we get the job done now I have to come back in my clothes to one thing because I am passionate about education I was talking about early childhood education for disadvantaged little children and let me tell you one specific pilot program where children who don't have a chance go to this program one year three now we're going back to when the mother's pregnant they'll start right after they're born but going starting one year three and going to this school until they're nine and then going into the public school in the fourth grade 90 percent are on the honor roll now that will change America those children will all go to college they will live the American dream and I beg the American people anytime they think about

reforming education to take this piece of society that doesn't have a chance and take these little pieces of clay that can be shaped and molded and give them the same love and nurture and affection and support you give your children and teach them that they're unique and that they're precious and there's only one person in the world like them and you will see this nation bloom and we will have so many people who are qualified for the top job that it will be terrific now finally if you can't pay the bills you're dead in the water and we have got to put our nation back to work now if you don't want to really do that I'm not your man I'd go crazy sitting up there so dancing that one in other words that's where you're going to do it then fix somebody who wants to talk about it now just remember when you think about me I didn't create this mess I've been paying taxes just like you and Lord knows I paid my share over a billion dollars in taxes and for a guy that started out with everything he owns the trucker is called I'm saying that once again it's in your

hands I wish you well I'll see you tomorrow night on NBC 1030 11 East and finally last but not least Governor Clinton thank you Carol and thank you ladies and gentlemen since I suggested this format I hope it's been good for all of you I really tried to be faithful to your request that we answer the questions specifically and pointedly I thought I owed that to you and I respect you for being here and for the impact you've had on making this a more positive experience these problems are not easy and I'm going to be solved overnight but I want you to think about just two or three things first of all the people of my state have let me be their governor for 12 years because I made commitments to two things more jobs and better schools our schools are now better our children get off to a better start from preschool problems and smaller classes in the early grades and we have one of the most aggressive adult education programs in the country we talked

about that this year my state ranks first in the country in job growth fourth in manufacturing job growth fourth in income growth fourth in the decline of poverty I'm proud of that it happened because I could work with people Republicans and Democrats that's why we've had 24 retired generals and admirals hundreds of business people many of them Republican support this campaign you have to decide whether you want to change or not we do not need four more years of an economic theory that doesn't work we've had 12 years of trickle down economics it's time to put the American people first to invest and grow this economy I'm the only person here who's ever balanced the government budget and I've presented 12 of them and cut spending repeatedly but you cannot just get there by balancing the budget we've got to grow the economy by putting people first real people like you I got into this race because I did not want my child to grow up to be part of the first generation of Americans to do worse than her parents we're better than that we can do better than that I want to make America as great as it can be and I ask for your help in doing

thank you very much thank you governor Clinton ladies and gentlemen this concludes the debate sponsored by the bipartisan commission on presidential debates I'd like to thank our audience of 209 uncommitted voters who may leave this evening may be being committed and hopefully they'll go to the polls like everyone else on November 3rd and vote we invite you to join us on the third and final presidential debate next Monday October 19th from the campus of Michigan State University in East Lansing Michigan I'm Carol Simpson good night and I'm Linda Withheimer thank you very much for for joining us this evening we're going to just talk for just a little bit with Jeffrey Bernbaum who is a reporter for the Wall Street Journal covers Congress and politics most years and has been traveling with the Clinton campaign Jeffrey I think first of all let's say that these these citizen questioners did a very good job and they dealt with very tough subjects and I we didn't get any any question that I would consider a crazy question off the

wall question or a trivial question we were they were asking about trade about the deficit about jobs they were critical of the conduct of the campaign talked about infrastructure and crime very serious and and very much from the heart it seemed a lot of the questions were very personal in nature one woman in particular asking the candidates how they personally were affected by some of the troubles in the economy in particular I think that was one of the most interesting parts of the of the of the whole debate when when the woman said what has what has the how is the national debt affected you I think Carol Simpson reinterpreted her question to me and how does the recession affect your life and and there and there was this little moment of electricity as the as the candidates kind of tried to reach out to this woman who was reaching out to them he was a moment probably that President Bush wishes he could take back I think because he he had to ask

that woman to rephrase the question because he didn't quite understand it which is could almost be a Clinton commercial in a certain way at at the same time of course President Bush did like in fact all three candidates I think co-imported themselves very well in this in this debate I think the spin doctors are out now trying to say that each of them won but I bet it would be hard for a lot of people to decide the it's early on in the debate we had President Bush discuss character he was asked why why do you spend so much time talking about each other why not talk about the issues why not try to reach consensus and President Bush defended the fact that he is campaigning on Clinton's character he said character is part of it and he basically said nobody likes who shot John the president said and then suggested that Governor Clinton had started the

negative campaigning right and Clinton responded that he didn't want to be negative and that he hated waking up in the morning having to defend himself each day and I think Clinton though he tried mightily to stay off the negative attacks did not succeed tonight I think he used the term read my lips in a derisive sort of way and it was clear though that the audience there was a moment when Carol Simpson the moderator asked the audience what they thought of the conduct of the campaign and you could see here in the stadium that we're sitting in that the virtually the entire audience said that they didn't like the negative campaigning it was clear though that neither Bush nor Clinton could really stay away from it the very last thing that that Ross Perot said in his closing statement was if the American people want to do it and not talk about it I'm your

man I'm the man who wants to pay the bills not go from me because I'll pay the bills this is not slow dancing right but but apart from a from an answer about education programs which is something he dealt with in great detail in the state of Texas in reforming education there there really was not I mean so far we're still getting from Ross Perot there are lots of plans you can solve the problems you can deal with it you just have to talk but he doesn't ever tell us what he doesn't ever get specific he did attempt in a few instances to get specific but there were three specific questions where he declined to give any specifics when he was asked about health care when he was asked about gun control and when he was asked about reforming the Social Security Trust Fund system his answer each time was there were a lot of very good solutions and all we have to do is sit down and think about it and we'll come up with the right answer and then he launched into

a very entertaining litany of his condemnation of lobbyists and special interests groups and pack money things were now all familiar are familiar aphorisms of Mr. Perot but it is and in fact both President Bush and Governor Clinton at least implicitly criticized Perot for not having his own plan on some of these subjects it is Clinton who's running for example as the man with the plan and he tried to contrast that both Bush and Perot but but once again Mr. Perot Mr. Perot did did tell us all that he was going to be talking about about what he wants to do at on television and that he's bought time on television as he said several times on NBC so that so that perhaps on his own paid television time he might he might tell us a few more details about what he actually plans to do he probably will talk a lot about the deficit and he has he

does have some ideas about cutting the deficit but maybe not these other subjects which he obviously considers ancillary not too much I don't think we really learned anything from the candidates that we didn't know we didn't hear any new any news games any new ideas as far as I can tell but I think it is interesting how Governor Clinton who's who did say several times that this was the format that he favored this was his idea Governor Clinton certainly does seem to be comfortable in this format he did a program very much like this on MTV he has done the television talk shows he even had his own his own private version of it which he paid for during the course of the campaign which would televised essentially television talk shows and and he did strive to be relatively specific now I wonder how that's going to how that will work how people will respond to that that will be the question over the next few days whether the very clever answers of Ross

Perot whether the calls for maturity the appeals to maturity and character made by President Bush or whether the staccato sort of point by point plans suggested by Clinton during this hour and a half will be what appeals most to the American voters but we did see three different characters of debate going on here it is fair to say though I think that Clinton was most practiced at this method and seemed to use the format more than the others walking around much more stepping closer to the camera it was sort of a ballet that we saw being played out here sort of everyone taking their own position trying to get the best angle it was a kind of a three-dimensional chest that we saw dancing in front of us we did see one and one particular occasion Mr. Clinton did sort of strike out at the president on the question of enterprise zones this was an answer to a question on

infrastructure president talks about passing bills talks about his program for enterprise zones talked about going to South Central Los Angeles and Carol Simpson who was the moderator said pointed out to him that such a bill had passed and that he had decided to veto it and and Clinton immediately came back with yes and decided to veto it because it taxed rich people more than the president wanted which is an oversimplification in itself but a probably a better than fair debating point in his favor I think we did see a pretty good exposition of from President Bush and Governor Clinton of their different views of government where we had Clinton talking about a more activist government investment is how he described it and acknowledging the tax increases were necessary but he was very careful to say only on wealthy people and foreign corporations

President Bush took a very different view of government saying that he wanted less government almost all subjects health care in particular and he was emphatic about his opposition to taxes while at the same time admitting that he had made a mistake in 1990 by breaking his no-new taxes pledge and signing what was then the second largest tax increase in history it was the tone of this debate though despite a couple of a couple of little back and forth the president on character Clinton on making his making a crack about read my lips and so on the tone could hardly be more different from the tone of the vice presidential debate and Jeffrey Bernrand we had we had given some thought to the possibility that the president might follow his vice president and really try to get very tough and very aggressive he didn't know he did not get aggressive but I think the

point that he made about character I mean he really put it on the line he didn't do it in a nasty way but he did put it as baldly and boldly as we've heard it at any time here whether he essentially asked people to decide whether