The American Scene; Rock and Roll Music

I don't know what to say, but I don't know what to say, but I don't know what to say, but I don't know what to say, but I don't know what to say, but I don't know what to say. Good morning. Rock and Roll music is a fairly recent development in the American scene, but in its relatively brief history, rock and roll has earned for itself a place of cultural significance and economic importance. The reason, of course, is that teenagers have widely accepted this type of music and are providing the major

support for it, often with the fanatic devotion. The sounds of rock and roll and the reaction to it are the areas we would like to investigate this morning. And to help us with this, we're very pleased to welcome Mike Rappchack, one of Chicago's prominent disc jockeys and Dave Hall, host of WNBQ Chicago Bandstand program. To begin with, let's investigate the sounds of rock and roll first. What is the most important aspect of the music itself? Well, I think most of the teenagers will agree that the most important element of a rock and roll tune has to be the beat. Gotta have a good beat, and that means a dance beat. It's different than the kind of beat that used to have with the big dance. It's a little more definite and a wilder sometimes. Isn't the melody important at all? Well, it is to a certain extent. You can, for instance, they've been reviving lately a lot of the old tunes that

were very popular and a lot of Mike, you might say, you know, the good tunes. And a lot of people say they've been spoiled by the beat. But nevertheless, they just take an old song, give it a different arrangement with a good beat, and it appeals to teenagers then. And this is what makes it a rock and roll. Well, partly, and also it's the instruments and the way they're used, you know, the tenor sax and heavy bass. Twanging guitar. Twanging guitar. And the triplet piano player. That's right. That's right. That's part of what goes up to make it. I think probably the most important thing and the thing that I've discovered that teenagers can spot so fast is when it's faked as a rule. What do you mean by that? I mean, for instance, if a record company gets the idea that they're going to follow a trend and produce some music

just because it happens to be the thing. Now, and if they get the wrong people to do this, and it turns out to be sort of false, the kids spot this. They're not stupid by any means. It's very hard to pull the wool over their eyes when it comes to that kind of thing. I play lots of music on the air that somebody's come up to me and said, this is a brand new release, it's going to be a big hit, and wouldn't you play it? So we play it, and the kids go right away, say, no. For some reason or rather, the spirit of the thing, either the musicians or something, just strikes a bell with them, and they won't buy it certainly. Mike, would you say that there's any attempt to come out with an original melody and rock and roll music? Have you found any? Well, the association I've had with rock and roll just by listening to some of the various record programs. In the beginning, it's basically

the 12 -bar blues originally. Rock and Roll rhythm and blues, which was originally categorized as race music for some reason or other, has become accepted by, as Dave says here, the teenagers. Why, I know that it seems to know, but in the beginning, it was primarily the blues, with the beat, which music has prevailed in the past quarter, century, perhaps 50 years, but in a relegated, small audience appeal. And as Dave says, there's another trend. I don't know when this was established, taking the old standard popular tunes that, when I was a teenager, were popular. And giving it, I just got a picture of a fellow with a claw playing in the piano, and an auto -tune guitar, and a fuzzy honking saxophone, and somebody with no singing lessons.

That's what it means to me. Why? I don't know why it appeals. I have my doubts about statistics. Personally, somebody may prove it, but I often wonder just how it is accepted. Well, so far, it doesn't seem to make any difference what the melody is. It's all dependent on who plays it and how they play it. Well, yeah, that's true. If it's played with a certain spirit, you know, that the kids will kind of take to. And that's something very interesting. Now, most adults don't like rock and roll. That's their claim. That's their stand. And yet, I know my own family, and people who work in the studio, when we're doing the show, will claim to, you know, dislike it. If you ask them, do you like rock and roll, they say no. Don't like it at all. And yet, while it's playing, tapping away, and humming, and particularly

some of the better performers who, I think, probably would be show business personalities, and, you know, have a basic talent regardless of what the trend of music would be. It's still the, you know, pretty fair performers, whatever would happen to be. Now, of course, that's not entirely the case in all the instances, but in a few, it's true. Some of the real top -notch rock and roll people. Dave, I read a story. I don't know if it's true or not. Somebody would sold his second one millionseller after six months of the recording scene was taking singing lessons, starting then. Could you tell me offhand some of the rock and roll star, do you think, would made it if, or not, it isn't so predominant? Well, I don't mean that they've taken lessons or have become, you know, expert musicians, but they have that personality quality, the same way that you don't have to be a great actor to be a success in Hollywood. And yet, you'll go on for many years. Some of the biggest people aren't really good actors. I think the same thing pertains to music. I would say I felt like Lloyd Price.

Now, a lot of adults, like that man's music, personality, I'm going to get married. Titles are wild, I know. But that's part of the charm of the thing. It's kind of, you know, it's different. We all, like, touch it, roll sin on the rill, roll, maras -y dots, things like that. Nonsense. That argument is back here, but those were the exceptions to the rule day. Going back to, I'll see that'll be the late 30s and early 40s. I don't recall, I'd offhand what were the top tunes then, but you'd find perhaps three different versions of, in 42, for instance. You'll never know. Frank Sinatra, Bing Crosby, Dick Haymes. Each had a version of You'll Never Know, which was a top seller. Perry James, you made me love you. Why that made it nobody knows. You mentioned Lloyd Price. I'm aware of rock and roll artists because you can never tell when somebody's got it.

And in that field, I've heard two young fellows, and I think a rock and roll as not primarily instrumental music, but somebody performing lyrics. Sometimes they're legible or unintelligible. But there are two fellows who I think would make it today, or would have made it in 1939. Bobby DARREN and James DARREN. I think so too. He has Bobby DARREN as got one tune that sort of, I suppose everybody would say, is the exception. But still, no, he has started as a rock and roll artist. And from what he has said, and the press and so forth, he doesn't want to go back to it. And yet, he can have a popular tune. He wasn't dead just because he gave up rock and roll when he had, you know, Mac the night. It's a tune from a Broadway show. And the kids accept that. This is an unusual thing. This is an

album. And it's a fine album by Bobby. And this is one of the tunes in the album. This has been a hit before. Who was it? Dick Hyman, right? Dick Hyman and Louis Armstrong had a hit of it a while back. Well, Dick had the big seller. Dick is a jazz musician. He's a fine pianist. And he came up with a simple melody, which for some reason, struck the nation's fancy. He made a lot of money with it. Now, Bobby, on this particular tune, I can't understand the lyrics, but he sure has got a beat. And it's a fine band behind him. And I was amazed and pleased to find that it has made the top tune lists like Young, for instance, which is an excellent selection for just anybody. And I was glad to see the kids like that. Well, that's very interesting about the lyrics. You said you couldn't understand the lyrics. And that tune, as of now, as far as I know, is

banned on many, many radio and television stations throughout the United States because of the lyrics. And yet, this is Kurt Wilde wrote that. And it was part of a three -penny album. And nobody thought anything about it until it became a big hit. And now there are objections to it. Well, this, to me, seems important. You mentioned earlier, Mike, that you didn't think of rock and roll as instrumental music, but as lyrics or someone performing lyrics. Well, are the meanings of the lyrics that important to make a rock and roll tune popular? Well, I've, you know, I blame the record companies that put that out. We get all kinds of records around that I really think have objectionable lyrics that I just wouldn't play. I have no objection to any of that, you know, kind of nice pleasant rock and roll or one's a good beat. One's you can't understand, you know, at least it has something there that the kids enjoy. But when they throw these lyrics that are, I

think objectionable and I know a lot of parents do too. And the kids are a little embarrassed themselves. We had a record hop a while back where this was not on the air. This was private. And a couple of the kids brought their parents. Parents had never seen a record happy for. And we played a couple of records that I wouldn't play on the air, but I got a lot of requests for them. So we decided, okay, we'll play them here in one time. And the kids were a little bit embarrassed because their folks were there, you know, and listening to this. And I don't, there's no reason for it. You know, you got all kinds of words. Why do you have to put out lyrics like that? Well, don't the lyrics have to fit in with the beat? In fact, if the lyrics fit the beat more important than what they say. Well, yeah, it isn't so much a matter of what they say. There's a record out now. The entire lyric content is woo -hoo. And it's pretty funny, really. But it has got a good beat and it'll probably be a big hit, you know. But that's just again the idea of the beat. But something you

mentioned before that I wanted to bring in when you're talking about lessons on their study. I had a fellow on the show one day who I was talking to and I said, well, you know, a lot of people think it's so easy to make recordings and become a millionaire, so to speak, via recordings overnight. And he said, well, that's not true. You have to study a long time or work hard, at least. I asked him how long he'd studied. He said, six months before he had his first hit. That must be kind of disturbing to the Juliaired people. I've heard comments from talented musicians who have come up through the ranks, so to speak. They say that when they recorded, people who are on records today wouldn't be allowed in a recording studio. Frank Sanatro, you understand, accepted by the group? Yes, yes, definitely. When Frank sang with Tommy Dorsey, Tommy had Frank and Joe Stafford

of the Pied Pipers, when they were sitting on the stand, when the band was doing an instrumental, have them blow through straws in a glass of water to train their breathing or something, to hold a phrase long. Or all little, little, infinitesimal things like that. Benny Goodman would record a tune 30 times with a lyric by Helen Forrest or anybody, Liza Marl. And these artists have told me that Benny would insist that that tune would be done 30 times. And I can't see some of these representative examples of popular music today being done maybe more than once. Well, they'll do it lots of times many times, so that's only because the artist is inadequate. And to get rid of breathing problems or something like that, they'll just take portions of recordings, put them all together, and it spells a hit. But I don't have any quarrel with the idea that the music was certainly more refined and took a lot more know -how years ago. And in a lot of music today, of course, good, competent people still

trying very hard to put out good music. But the thing is that right now the kids want something to identify with. I guess I've read that a lot of times, and I sort of think it's true that this is their kind of thing. And the more you object to it and the more you carry on about how bad it is and how absurd the more they're going to like it. But why did they pick this to identify with? That, I don't know. I don't have any idea. Whoever started this, I don't know. But it's here. And they've accepted it now. I can see that point. It's like asking permission from your parents to do something. If they go along with you, they're swell, but they say no. Or not your parents, but say a friend. If your friend agrees with your outlook, and he's more your friend. But if he disagrees with you, then you think twice about asking him again. And maybe you think less of him, I don't know. But I believe that it's kind of a revolutionary movement with the

youngsters who get a fad, whether it be dress, music, or anything to identify themselves as a group. However, why the whole music industry has to gear themselves to a taste of a teenager is kind of incomprehensible personally. Well, I think it's probably economic, really. You take, as Life Magazine mentioned, the teenage market consists of a $9 billion a year market. It's a lot of money. Sure. And nobody wants to pass that up. I think one good result will come of it, though. And you know a lot of jazz musicians and good, competent people who have worked hard and know their music. And a lot of these people, I find, are gradually because of the economics of the thing, working their way into rock and roll. Not because they wanted to, but because this is the way you go about making a living in music now. Oh, certainly. And I think a result of that is that the arrangements, and in some cases the lyrics,

and certainly the treatment of a song, regardless of the actual talented singer, is concerned, I think it's getting a little more refined, a little better. For instance, I had a guest yesterday on the show who had her arrangement and orchestration done by two very well -known Chicago arrangers, and performers, Cesar Jovenini and Wayne Robinson. Two of the fans. And they're excellent. And these people are doing more and more of this, which is bound to have its effect will be felt. Yeah, well, and I know many outstanding musicians, so perhaps you're not aware of them. The Barney Kessel, you know, he makes rock and roll records. I mean, he plays in the group because he has to eat because they won't buy his talent. I mean, the scope of the audience isn't that large to finance it. That contradicts, I don't know what you said, but what I just said a minute ago, it contradicts what I said in the beginning, that if you fake it, it won't be accepted. And I wonder whether these people,

like Barney Kessel and so forth, you know, they may in conversation knock the music, but when they're actually playing their portion of the tune, whether they really swing with it and take it seriously, or whether it's just a laugh, and this is going to pay off and check the end of the month. But they loosen the strings and ask, where's the bread? Well, we're talking about teenagers wanting to identify with something we're getting kind of a psychological approach to this whole thing. Couldn't there be a simpler explanation? One of the major forms of recreation for teenagers is dancing, and rock and roll provides a good dance beat for them. This is why they like it. Well, I could be, I suppose, I don't know. I was not too much about that arrow between the big swing bands and the dancing that was done to those bands, and then what happened, I guess it was right after the war, wasn't it, when that started to decline? What kind of music took its place that didn't

provide an outlet for dancing right after that? What was that kind of music? Well, that'd be around 1948, Dave. There were some pretty things there, Gordon Jenkins. Maybe you'll be there, and that King Cole Mona Lisa. Here's an example. That is one of the finest jazz pianists in the world. He set the pattern for piano trios. I guess he made enough money. It was a financial return to guarantee him a fairly comfortable life. Mona Lisa was a tune he did not want to record. He did it against his wishes, on order from the A &R man. And then later he said, I wish I could find another Mona Lisa. Now, in some instances, not as frowned on by his comrades, who remember him as a fine jazz, interpretive, had lib talent.

However, you can't argue with success. Well, that's true right now. You have three of the top jazz people over the past several years, who now have records, like on the top 50 or so, of the popular music. It's Dina Washington, Ella Fitzgerald, and Sarah Vaughan. Which of Ella's is it? But not for me. Oh, that is a lovely choice. I didn't realize that. It's beautiful. But they've all, all these people in recording these. Of course, new recordings. And they've put a touch of that beat or that triplet piano or something in the background to give it just enough flavor for the teenagers to accept. And they do. So there you have good music with just a touch of their own teen appeal to it. And they'll accept it. It's good. Well, is this music in any way related to folk music rock and roll? Or is it becoming folk music? Rhythm and blues is primarily, I guess it falls in that category of folk music, like spirituals, perhaps.

And then it's a branching out of, you know, I'd say that. Rhythm and blues are not rock and roll. To me, there are two separate distinct classes. Well, what is the distinction there? They're still based on a particular beat. It ought to be tough to define, I think I can differentiate in hearing. I'll give you two examples. Young fellow named Ray Charles. You play Ray Charles. Yes. Here is a fine, and Fats Domino is another good rhythm and blues artist. He is, and they both have been very popular in their circles the past 15, 20 years. Now they are national favorites. They have the feeling, and as opposed to what's the fellow with the first name, or one name only. Fabian. Personally, I've got

nothing against the young fellow. I don't know anything about him. I saw him perform on the television, and once he's enough for me. But I would listen to Ray Charles, and Fats Domino. Why? I don't know. Well, we're still getting back to the artist again, aren't we? We're saying that some artists play better type of music than others. Well, and also another point. That's true. And these people have been popular for many years, many of them, in their own area, and now become national favorites. That's probably what we're talking about before, why the thing changed. They're always looking for a new sound. Everybody's always looking for a new sound. The Glen Miller era. They were looking for a new sound, even then. And so this was a new sound. And I suppose somebody just took a fly around it, and did it nationally. And there you are. Dave, I often wonder. I once saw some figures on the migration of people from the southern part of the country, up to the industrial areas. And I wonder how much effect that has had

on making this music so dominant. Besides rock and roll, there's the Hillbilly flavored music, which has also made money for these artists. And I wonder if the displacement of those persons from their original homeland up here, up in Detroit, New York, and so forth. Whether they're requests when they're walk of life to the different musicians, and so forth, places of entertainment, had some effect originally on the trend. I often wonder that. I probably have. They constitute a market. And wherever you have a market, there's always somebody willing to satisfy it. And that's probably one of the big reasons. For instance, now there's a little bit of a trend toward country and western music in the pop music of today. For instance, remember the old favorite battle of New Orleans, and things like that. You know, that are popular now. And they're really country and western. The artists, for the most part, have been very popular for a long time in their own areas,

operating out of Nashville. But there seems to be a market for it now in the big metropolitan areas, so it's here. I often think, Dave, in 20 or 10 years from now, the youngs to the teenagers who were dancing on your show, somebody might get married. They've met at the show, and they get married, and 10 years from now say, let's play that song. The day we met, 40 miles of. What is the bad road? Bad road, or a cookie, cookie, and then your cone. That's another one in the neighborhood. Well, you know, it's it is fun. No, if that's real. No, I'm just kidding. This is funny. The titles are, in some cases, really ridiculous. But that's another thing. They have these kids recording these tunes. Well, Fabian, and Frankie Avalon, people like that, who admit themselves, they're not talented. They don't know how to sing.

Fabian's out in Hollywood about to make a movie in which he will sing, and he has to start taking some singing lessons, because they won't spend all the time to tick out the bad notes out of his recordings. So they know that, but you know, it must be kind of a kick for a young teenager, 14, say, to see another teenager, much older, like 16, a big success. You know, there's this fellow making lots of money. It isn't the money so much. It's just the adulation. You know, we admire, for years, movie stars, even adults too. I knew myself. And you say, wow, I wish I could live like that and do all those things. And these kids can see children their own age, teenagers their own age, making a name for themselves. It's good or bad, it's a name. They are very impressionable years, I agree to that. Well, this brings up a point. A lot has been said that rock and roll music has a bad effect on the teenagers, and it's a cause of lowering standards of delinquency of one form, sort or another. Do you agree with

this? You think it's that effective? You're looking at me. I think, oh, let me start from the beginning. I mean, first started doing this, I thought, no. That's just an adult reaction. It doesn't have any effect whatsoever on, or have any bad effect on the teenagers. I think now it does. Some, an equal effect. I think there's some instances where it can be bad, but it has to be a combination not only of the music, but the environment, the atmosphere, and everything else. I think it gets on occasion a little too wild, and it tends to incite a bad poor reaction. I don't know just exactly why. In some cases, frankly, it gets a little lured, and that is certainly not good, but by far the majority of the cases, it's fine. The reaction just as kids are having a lot of fun. It's good. Do you agree with that, Wayne? Well, they made two comments, one here and one earlier. Some of the

actions are lured. Some of the lyrics are blue or objectionable. So those two comments tend to make one believe that it is contributing to, perhaps. Do you have to remember these are in the minority, though? These cases. These are just isolated instances. Well, let me cite one here. The young fellow guarding our Western bastions in the Army in Germany, the fellow who started it all, who appeared on the television show, and so much comment was made by his gesticulations that his next appearance, or one of the subsequent appearances, they cut to, what are you saying, television? Close up, and would not photograph the entire performance. Excuse me, gentlemen, I'm afraid our time is up. Thank you very much. Thank you. Our discussion this morning seems to have indicated that rock and roll music, in most cases, is nothing more than a product provided by a big business for a specific market in our country. Basically, it seems to

allow the teenager to identify with something in the entertainment world, which is uniquely his, and not shared with others. In any event, this point has been suggested. Music, particularly pop music, is a reflection of a culture. And if there is concern over the type of popular music being produced, perhaps our attention should be directed to the society from which it grows and not to the music alone. Good morning for the American scene.