Eyes on the Prize II; Interview with William Lucy

Camera roll, 4020, 7407, time code, 10, I mean, 1420, ready to roll, how did you first get involved with the strike? The strike came about essentially because of the, I guess, frustration of the men. I, at that time, was assigned to the City of Detroit doing some organization work. I got a call from the president who had got a call from a newspaper reporting effect telling him or raising the question as to what we knew about what was about to take place in the City of Memphis. I'm from Memphis and therefore the president thought I may be of some use down there and the asked if I'd go down and just be a part of trying to bring the thing together. I did met one or two of our other staff people

down there and it, to us, seemed like a fairly simple dispute that could have been settled relatively easy and this was early, well, by mid-February 1968 and in our opinion it was a simple issue if we had been working with a city or administration that had some understanding of the day-to-day problems of workers in these particular categories and had a willingness to sit down sort of address those problems. Were you surprised the men there in particular of struck? Yeah, I was quite surprised. The strike was an accumulation of grievances that had not been addressed. The men were not the typical militants that you would see in the militant union activity. These were 55, 60-year-old men who had spent a better part of their life, at least their work life, working for the City of Memphis and what essentially had to be the most unskilled profession that you could imagine. So they were not

eager to strike. They were not eager to make any statement. They simply was looking for a resolution to some of the outstanding grievances that they had for some time. Where are we trying to first check and make sure everything's going well? So how did you first become aware of the strike? Well, President Worth had received a phone call, at least an inquiry from a newspaper reporter, asking him if the union was in fact planning and organizing a strike in the City of Memphis. It came with quite a surprise to President Worth, because in February nobody has a strike in Memphis, Tennessee. He called me at that time. I was assigned to Detroit and asked if I could find time to go down and meet one of our other staff people and see if we could lend some support to bring in this to a conclusion. To us, it was a fairly simple matter when we arrived at St. Mike. It was a disagreement over grievances, and we thought any administration or city

government could settle these kind of differences rather quickly. And you were a union representative at that time? At that time, I was assistant director of the Department of Legislation and Community Affairs, an associate director, but assigned to Detroit on a particularly unique organizing effort. So in one sentence, you were working for what? I was working for President Worth. I was working for President Worth as associate director of the Department of Legislation and Community Affairs. What happened when Load first? What were your first impressions in their Load? I was struck by the mayor as a rather unique individual. At that time, Memphis had just come through a new election, an election that involved the restructuring of the city government and the election of a new city council, and the election of a strong mayor. Mayor Load was a rather large man, sort of a John Wayne type, John Wayne mentality, six foot, five

or six, and very impressed with not only himself, but his station in life, and a stubborn man, one who I think genuinely felt warm towards people, but in much more of a paternalistic sense, as opposed to a relationship of peers on the basis of just human being. What was it like when you first, you were there when you first met with the workers? I was there when we first came to just take a look at what the problem was. We had met with him prior to his meeting with the men, to try and point out the safety concerns that the men had. The problems of discrimination with regards to the assignment of work on the critical day that it rained and they were sent home. And his reaction was, as far as he was concerned, the union really didn't represent anybody, at least in his estimation. So we decided that we would go back and inform the men of his position and ask them, you

know, what we should do? And we went back to the rubber workers hall where there was a meeting in progress. And this decision was made to bring them in downtown to see the mayor. And so we marched from the Union Hall across the city of Memphis to City Hall. And we were intent on taking everybody into the mayor's office. This would have been about 1,200, 1,300 people. The decision was made to meet in the auditorium, which is a suggestion to City Hall. The mayor still thinking that this was a situation pretty traditional in the South where he would go in, express his views to the men. And the issue would be resolved right away. I can recall him saying at the outset of his presentation that you men have known me for a long time. And my door has always been open to you. And you know, I would always give you the shirt off my back. And this kind of traditional paternalism that exists in the South. And I think somebody from the back of the room

sort of raised up and said, we really don't want the shirt off your back. What we'd like to have is a decent wage and we'd buy our own shirt. And I mean, the discussion was at least framed at that point. Was it a mistake for the mayor to come and see them? I think it was useful for the men and I think it was useful for him. I think he completely misunderstood what was taking place. And I think the men needed to understand his view of them. He thought that as traditionally happens in the South, you bring the balls in and the balls would state the issue and frame the debate and provide the solution. And then everybody go back to work and they'll take care of it. The leaders of the union at that time, T.O. Jones and the rest of them were quite clear that they had reached a point where a discussion would not resolve the issue. And the mayor made the incredible mistake of stepping right into the middle of a very difficult situation that he couldn't resolve. Those of us from the union, if you know anything at all about workers and you

can read their minds, you know right away that an employer in the midst of an emerging strike is not going to settle with kind words. After the mayor spoke, there were some of us who had a opportunity to explain the situation in much more detail, both in an effort to make sure the workers clearly understood what was taking place. And they had a right to confront their employer in the way that they were. How did the mayor react to the booing and the reaction to them? He was quite taken back. I mean, there's nothing like this that had ever happened to him before. These were men who felt had a major level of respect for him. And you know, what's taken place here? And I think he got quite perturbed and sort of left. And I think for the men, the fact that they stood up to the mayor was a new experience. This was not a strike at the outset that involved money, didn't involve anything other than the recognition

of the men and their problem. And the recognition of the union as a spokesman for it. So early on in the strike, can you give me some examples of how the negotiations went and why they weren't working? Well, the mayor early in the strike took the position that the strike was an illegal strike. And you know, that Memphis, Tennessee was not in New York and the union would not impose a settlement on the city. And that in fact, so long as it was illegal, he would have no discussion with the men or representatives of the men. And this position sort of struck everybody. It's kind of strange because whether it was a strike or wasn't a strike, wasn't the issue. The issue was that there was a problem that needed addressing. And as we tried to explain to the mayor, you know, one of the key functions of the city and its administration is to provide services. And so if services are interrupted, whatever is necessary to do to restart those services is what is potentially not to be addressed to.

Well, the community, sort of at least, saw the view that if there are no discussions, there can be no settlement. So a wonderful, religiously-to-they-of-months-ing-your-leopard, you know, negotiated the strange meeting where we would in effect meet in the basement of his church, he would provide all the facilities. And we would speak to the mayor, and hopefully the mayor would speak to us. On the first of these attempts, it was a long rectangular table with the city and its administration on one side, the union in the men on the other side. And months in your leopard said, on the end, well, we would speak to the city, and they would not move. The months in your leopard would have to interpret what we said to the city. And then the city would speak back to months in your leopard and ask him to tell us what he'd say. Well, this is the strangest, in the silliest situation he ever saw. At the same time, a good deal of this was for public consumption. When the mayor would speak, the television lights would go on. He'd be recorded for prosperity. And then when months in your leopard would speak, the lights would go out. I mean, it was the strangest

environment. And there was his way in his own mind of not violating the law. He could forever say he has not spoke with the union of the men, and certainly has not negotiated with him. What about the council meeting when the 22nd, when Davis shared it? What did you guys do? Well, the council meeting that followed what we thought was really a very successful beginning of the resolution of the strike, followed a meeting of the Committee on Public Works, shared by Mr. Fred Davis. That committee had in effect adopted a resolution that would have ended the strike, had it been adopted by the full Committee and supported by the mayor. Well, at the conclusion of the subcommittee meeting tonight, prior to the full council meeting, we thought everything would be over the next day. We went to the city council meeting, the union... I'm sorry. That was a rollout of $4020, $4,021, $10,000, $14,21. Let's go back to the subcommittee. What did you all do for it? Yeah, we came to conclusion at the subcommittee, the Committee

on Public Works, really could play a role in bringing this thing to a head. The committee was chaired by a council member, Fred Davis. He and his committee granted us a meeting where we wanted to discuss their possibly passing a resolution which could be adopted by the full city council that would frame the issue and recommend a course of solution. I don't think the committee really realized how serious we were about finding a settlement. On the day that we met, they were hesitant and weren't clear about their responsibility. They felt they may be intruding on the mayor's jurisdiction. We had brought that day about 1,300 to 1,500 people to the city council chambers and we were prepared to stay forever until we got some action from them. They sort of overreacted to a degree and ordered us out of the place and we refused to leave. As a matter of fact, we sent out and got

bread and baloney and cold cuts and we just really decided to camp in for a good while. The committee really under some real pressure, you'll call the police who didn't quite know what to do at that point either. And finally, somewhere near the 11th hour, they passed the resolution that could have been passed at the beginning of the meeting and it provided a framework for the solution. And I guess the interesting thing is that this was a brand new city hall chambers. The city was so proud of it. It had bright red rugs and great tables. The men who also saw that as their city hall completely cleaned the place up. It was spotless when we left. And that led into the following day of the full meeting of the Memphis City Council, where we had been promised a hearing on the committee's recommendation. And since members of the committee were substantial leaders of the council, a pretty strong indication that it would be adopted by the council as a whole. And that would be sort of a sense

of the legislative body. And the mayor would buy this and we would move on forward and resolve this thing. While again, we came down both with the, we've been, the union came down with the workers and across the city. The word hadn't went out that the strike was going to come to a head. So we had a number of community leaders, religious leaders who came also to the council at one for the purpose of lending their support to this final solution. While when the council meeting opened, it opened in the traditional formal way. And at that point, the chairperson of the council turned to some other member. I forget who. And they just made this silly statement and moved to adjourn. And we, I mean, we were all caught in this strange situation. Well, what happened to the recommendation that was going to come from the committee on public works? And they simply adjourned and got up to leave. Well, I mean, there was absolute chaos at that point because the men felt that they had

been double crossed. The union felt that they had been certainly been given short shrift. And we were quite concerned as to where the, the whole thing was going to go from there. When we came out of the city council chambers, there was such confusion that we really thought that we had to provide some sort of a cooling off process to allow the frustrations of men to sort of, you know, tone themselves down. When we came out, we confronted a substantial portion of the Memphis police force that had obviously been called to the spot after we went into the city council chambers. So we came out to meet this, this horde of police standing out front and in effect, lining the, the plaza in front of City Hall. Our president president, Wurf, went to, appeared to be in charge of the police force. And while we were still frustrated about what had happened in the, in the council chambers, we wanted

at least the authority to march to some place where we could address them in. And this was, I guess the second major march of the, of the strike. We finally reached agreement that we could march down Main Street using the portion of the street so that, you know, we wouldn't interrupt and disrupt traffic. They agreed to this. We began the march. Some of us who had some other responsibilities took off to, to take care of those. But the police allowed the march to get, get stretched out along the street for two, maybe two and a half blocks. And then began to, to really crowd the march using police vehicles over towards the curve. And in the course of doing this was obviously making it smaller and smaller in terms of the width. And it depends on who you talk to as to what actually happened at what point in time. But at eight point in time, the police began to mace, began to, you know, really beat, began to, really brutalize the marchers. And everyone who was with them are, are people who were on the sidewalks, not even involved in the march itself.

Now, you were, you were laughing telling me that when I said, was this a turning point because of the, the ministers there and they were dressed in the reaction. Can you tell me, I mean, was this a turning point why was the minister? This was a clear turning point in the strike. The ministers who had came to the city council to lend their, their moral and personal support to the solution, thought that the men had got, you know, bad treatment before the city council. But they, they did not, I'm sure, think that, that it could not be repaired. When the violence broke off in the police force, the ministers were a part of the march. And they certainly didn't believe that in any stretch of the imagination that they would be treated. The same as ordinary blue collar workers in the city of Memphis, Tennessee. And the dividing line of the polarizing line that they, if you were black and on the street in Memphis, Tennessee, in that area, you would treat it the same no matter what your station in life was. And I think this was a turning point in the strike for at least one of the prominent, you know, religious leaders

Ralph Jackson. Jackson, who was a conservative leader in the religious community, but was maced right along with everyone else. Just completely had a revelation as to who he was and what he was in the city of Memphis. And I'm sure there were others who experienced the same instant realization that they may be economically better off. They may have a greater stature in life. But for the eyes of the political leadership of the city administration, they were still black. You were telling me specifically that you got all these ministers in their Sunday best suits. They were dressed to appear before the city council of Memphis, Tennessee. And this is a rather important event for them. And they came down in their finest. I guess the intellectual leadership and the religious leadership of most of them said this was a very formal group of people. And they react very formally. And as I say, they had their Sunday best. And the mason was the ultimate

outrage and insult to them. Tell me about inviting King and March, why, what it had to do with morale. And March, when the decision began, at least the issue began to be discussed about inviting Dr. King to come to Memphis. It grew out of the frustrations of the city. And I guess maybe the media really put an allied on what was taking place in Memphis. We were 47 days into the strike. And nobody knew it except us in the city of Memphis. Roy Wilkins had come to town by a restaurant had come to town to speak in support of the strike. But still, there was no understanding beyond the city as to what was taking place. The invitation to Dr. King to come was that we believe that he would not only lend his moral support to the strike, but he was in the midst of organizing the poor people's campaign.

We just really thought that that would be a good movement for him to identify with. That there would be national media with him. That would, in effect, take an interest in what was taking place. Was there a toll being taken on the older workers as well? We think so. We think that the... Did you start by saying by repeating, was there a toll being taken on the older workers? We think there was a toll being taken on the older workers. So you put it in the present tense, but not? So did you think there was a toll on the worker's event time? Yes, I was... Give me a hold. I'm sorry. There was a toll being taken on the workers because in their opinion the issues were so simple, yet the city would make them so difficult. And we envy, believe, that a moral shot in the arm would be useful, and that Dr. King was the one who had the kind of statue that could bring that moral support as well as inspiration to continue.

What was Britain Lawson's role? Britain Lawson was co-chair along with H. Ralph Jackson of the committee that was basically the community support committee. It was called a committee on the move for equality. And it was a structure for the religious community, the political leadership in the black community, all those who wanted to lend their support to the strike at that time. What about when King first came? What was the first... Are we right now? We have 40 feet. Describe Lawson for me. Jim Lawson is really one of the strong, bright, intelligent leaders of our time, not just that time. He's a very deep thinker, one who had a long-standing relationship with the Civil Rights Movement and a personal relationship with Dr. King, and was pastoring Centenary Methodist Church and Memphis at that time, but well respected across the community. Was he a powerful leader?

He was a powerful leader in the black community. He was a hated leader in the broad white community, simply because he was a different kind of religious leader than the white power structure he was accustomed to dealing with in Memphis. Why? What was different then? His vision of what was necessary to adjust the grievances of people now, while he was strong with regard to his religious and theologic responsibilities, he was also very militant in terms of what the community ought to be doing for people right now. I think what I remember from that night was the incredible ability that King had to understand and interpret the issues and what was taking place.

He had not been there before, and he had had the most minimal of briefing, but he clearly understood that the struggle was really about a new kind of people, people who worked 40 hours a week and still lived in poverty, and he was able to arrange his presentation to demonstrate to the crowd that he understood this, and to give them a sense that their struggle was a legitimate struggle that they had every right to carry out. How did he speak that night? What do you remember? How was the crowd reacting? Well, the crowd completely reacted as only a crowd could react to Dr. King. I mean, his oratory skills were incredible, but again, his ability to interpret this and to put it into words that were so basic and so simple that everybody could understand. And he brought the audience to just a fever pitch, I mean, and I think in the course of that speech, I recognize that this was a new movement in America, and a new movement among working people, a new movement among poor people, and one that had to be supported.

Do you remember him specifically talking about how he thought that Memphis was what Memphis was like as a community? Well, he thought that Memphis was an effect symbolic of the country as a whole, where the powers to be really had not come to deal with the issues that affect the ordinary people, and that the struggle of working people to earn a decent living was what the whole problem in America was about. Okay. I want you to think back for a second. I'm just sort of going to recess and remember the March that he leads. What do you remember about that March? You specifically? I remember from the March, the organization of the beginning of it, first of all, and how almost the entire city thought that this would be the catalyst that would bring a solution together, because you had all of the forces that was necessary, kings, prestige, his willingness to put himself in the middle of this activity, and I grew in sense across

the community that this thing had gone on just too long. As a March progress, we began to understand that there were some other things that play also, as we learned later on, the police department, as well as bureaus of the federal government, had really became involved in a rather destructive way. The violence that emerged from the March was not of the strikers doing, but rather, in our opinion, the activities of provocateurs that were really active among certain groups in the community. As you were marching, when did you first sense that something was wrong? What did you see with the year-old? While we were marching, I was about in the first one-third of the marches I could tell at that point. We began to hear windows breaking. We began to hear loud rustling and easiness among the marches, and there hadn't been no violence whatsoever in the march, and certainly none encouraged by the union.

We couldn't quite figure out what was taking place, and then we began to see individuals who were stepping out of the march and throwing things at wonders, and we began to really be very concerned about what all of this meant, and some of us who were staff people and some of the leadership among the strikers, those of illegal lay hands on where we were, began to grab a hold of these people and pull them back into the march to sort of bring this to a halt. After a while, the police themselves, apparently not necessarily on the cue, but certainly it on the command, began to wait into the crowd and began to beat people, they began to really trust people up a bit, and we were quite concerned because the march was filled with all kinds of people who had come to participate. You're being very diplomatic right now, if I was in the middle, but I might have been pretty scared. Well, I wasn't scared, I wasn't fearful at that point. What I was more concerned about is the implications that this had for the resolution of the strike,

the implications that it had, while I didn't think very deeply about it, for Dr. King. In the police, we had a police riot, not brought on by any confrontation between the marchers and the police, but brought on by the police instant reaction for the protection of property. What happened as you retreated back in the Beale Strait, were you doing anything particular that you remember? Well, the first thing we were concerned about as we brought the march to a halt was the safety of Dr. King, and at the front of the march, that was taken care of, and then some of the staff people that came concerned about some of the elderly people who were in the crowd, and how they needed to be looked after in the police. At this point, again, was indiscriminately beating people. We decided to move back to a Claiborne Temple so that we could really just sort of get ourselves together, and the staff people were just simply trying to take care of everybody

that we could to make sure nobody was seriously injured either by a stampede of the crowd. Or, by the police and their activities. Let's stop at that for a second. Very briefly, who were the invaders? The invaders were a group of, the invaders were a group of college students from Memphis State who had a very, very strong feeling about the need for a more militant approach, not just to the problems of the city of Memphis, but certainly to the problems of the strike, made up of student leaders, and I think very intelligent, very bright kids. They were later infiltrated by the Memphis Police Department, I suspect, by the Federal Bureau of Investigation also. You had a very different description of where Memphis got me on the film, I guess. Okay, we're driving to the airport and you're with King.

Tell me about driving with him and what he was saying and your thoughts about if he was going to come back and why? As we drove Dr. King to the airport, we discussed a number of things, first of all, his perception of the strike, and his classic description that this is the confrontation of the 60s and the 70s, the working poor in an effort to improve their own situation. I believe he was committed to coming back, because the question of whether or not he could have a nonviolent demonstration, again, was very critical to him. There was a more militant move moving across the country, and Dr. King's nonviolent leadership was being called into question, and the violence at this demonstration was being charged directly to him, and he felt that he had to set that record straight. What was his move as he got out of the car and left there? His move when he left us was up beat, but defensive, he could not understand why this

had taken place. In all of the situations, his moral authority was sufficient to have a peaceful demonstration and have a peaceful confrontation with the authorities. On the strike, there were lots of marches. What was happening, day to day? Day to day, on the course of the strike, we had to do two things. We had to keep the workers informed, and we had to have a role for them to play both and show in the city that they were determined to carry on the strike, and at the same time, demonstrate to the community that they were still alive and well. So on a daily basis, what were they doing? On a daily basis, we were marching downtown, we were marching to City Hall, we were disrupting the commercial activities and the business district of downtown Memphis. Do you remember people singing or what sorts of things they sang? We sang every day. We sang the traditional freedom songs.

We shall not be moved. We modified those songs to point out the villains of the community of Mary Lowe, other members of the council, who had taken a much more reactionary stand, and we thought they should have. Hey, Timmerroll, 2023, time code 1423, do you remember what people were chanting about that? Well, we were chanting and modifying old Civil Rights songs back then. I remember one distinctly that was aimed at Mary Lowe, and it paraphrased one of the old spirituals. You know, Lowe, as our leader, he shall be removed, the young kids who had just an incredible ability to develop songs or the spirit of most of the marches. Can we stop for one second? So what was happening, you know, day by day in the marches?

Every day in the march, every day doing this, of course, in the strike, we had a march, each downtown or march to City Hall, where we sang, we chatted, and some of the old songs that we remember distinctly was aimed at the mayor and aimed at the city administration. I remember one of the modifications that we used was Henry Lowe, as our leader, he shall be removed. And that was pretty prophetic, we thought, in terms of sending a message to the community as a whole. It's good. Mountain Top Speech. What do you remember? Most remember during that speech, what was going on that night? The Mountain Top Speech took place on an evening, I guess as you could say, was perfect for the kind of speech that it was. It was an inspiring speech. One that Dr. King had really given what appeared to be a good deal of thought to. He told about his personal experiences, both the high points and low points, it woven

to it a message that the strikers were entitled to continue their struggle, and certainly entitled to the broad basis of support that they had built across the city. He then went on to talk about the vision that he saw, both for them and for himself. And it was one of the most dramatic speeches I've ever heard, and it was not down, it was not negative, it was really very, very high. When it ended, I mean the entire church at Mason Temple, I just went while with excitement. I mean, he had touched a chord that was so deeply rooted in all of the people there. Went far beyond the strikers to community people, and he had shared with them his view of not only himself with his role in society. Okay, I want you to think back to that moment. He's finished the speech, he turns around and you see his face in a crowd reacts. What do you see?

What's the crowd doing? The crowd is leaping to their feet, they're yelling, they're excited about his interpretation of himself, his future role, both in the movement as well as in the black experience. Did the crowd go wild? The crowd went absolutely wild. And it's just really hard to describe the kind of enthusiasm that was there in the kind of emotion that he had pulled out of people. This striker is 50 days old, or 55 days old, and it has taken its toll on everyone and you're looking for that inspiration, and he certainly brought it. Was he sad at all? Not at all. Not at all. Dr. King was very upbeat, was very emotional. His comment about having been to the mountain top and looked over and seen the Promised Land was not a downer, it was not a negative thought. It was one that says that the struggle is continuing, and I am a part of it, and we will all

overcome. It was a high point, not a low point. How did you feel at that moment? I personally felt very good. I was always confident that we would win this strike. It was never a question of losing, and that reinforced it because it gave the men, it gave the union and sent a signal across the city that this moral struggle was going to continue into victory. When I want you to try to do in one statement, a few sentences, it's just, when I ask you, what did you see when you finished, combined just what you saw with the crowd vividly, and what you saw with King and how he felt and how it made you feel about the strike. The mountain top spade ends and it builds up to this fever of pitch. He turns around and you see him, you see the crowd, how did it, how did it all? Well, the look on his face and the emotion that was being displayed by the crowd said to me that victory is very near in the strike, that the people are united.

He has made a moral commitment to it, and it's simply a matter of persevering. Okay, you're at the temple and the crowd is expected and walks Dr. Abernathy, what happens? Well, we in the union and those who had gathered expected Dr. King that night, but Baron Mind that there was a dreadful night, I mean, it was just a terrible night in terms of the weather, and the expectations was that the crowd would not be very large. Dr. Abernathy came over to deliver the main address and that there was such enthusiasm that in effect, it almost demanded that Dr. King come over and speak, and Ralph then sent word back that the doc had to come over. What about that last day, you didn't see King, what were you doing during the day? The last day, the city had gone to court to get an injunction to prevent the march from taking place, and so we were dealing with all of the logistics that surround at the march,

attempting to present our case to the courts, trying to get people prepared to play different roles in the march, marshals, trying to make sure that the strikers and the signs and the station, everything we thought that had to be done logistically to support the march. Both we and the committee on the move for equality was deeply involved then. So what were you specifically doing during that day? My job was staff mobilization and staff support and the continued preparation of a leadership of the union, the rank and file leadership so that they understood their role. So you were gaining constant with people, right? Yes. There were people all over the city because we would mobilize at lunchtime, but the march was going to begin earlier than that, so we want to make sure that everybody was in place. It was a busy period for the staff of the union.

So next day, we were busily preparing for the march that was going to take place there, a number of, I guess, mechanical or logistical things that we had to get in place, and we were busy going about the business of dealing with the injunction and organizing for the march itself. Okay. Got it. The speech is over, it turns around. When Dr. King concluded the speech and simply turned at the pulpit, I mean, the crowd actually went wild, I mean, there was just such emotion being displayed, he was satisfied himself that he had delivered what was the speech necessary for that moment myself and I'm sure the rest of us who had responsibility for the strike really generally felt that

this was a critical point in the struggle, that he had brought the kind of message that was necessary to re-energize a whole movement. I had never had any doubts before, but certainly at that point that we would be victorious in the strike. How would you move on about the half a minute or something? Yes. That's a minute. Let's go back to Lawson, when you first met Lawson, I mean, how did Lawson strike you? What was he like? What was Reverend Lawson like? Reverend Jim Lawson was a very, you know, interesting individual. He was not quick to join the side of the Union, although he was very quick to join the side of the men. He was a very deep, intellectual, you know, person, one who had a great history in the civil rights movement, as a matter of fact, he had been an advisor to Dr. King many years before, but also had studied directly in Egypt, or rather in India, with Mr. Gandhi, I mean, he was a disciple of the nonviolent movement, but an extremely diligent, extremely intelligent

and extremely committed. Was it his personal invitation that brought King to Memphis? Yes. Jim personally invited Dr. King to join the struggle because he understood the relationship of the struggle of these workers with the overall mobilization of the poor people's campaign that Dr. King was involved in, and the merging of our need to have Dr. King's moral presence and what he thought would be Dr. King's understanding of the struggle was what motivated him to reach out. So we're rolling out, let's just roll it out. Thank you very much.