History of the Negro People; 9; The Future and the Negro

I'm. Ossie Davis and we gathered this afternoon here at the Carnegie International Center in New York City. And this is the final program of a series concerning the history of the Negro people. We've been to Africa Latin America various parts of the United States looking for the evidence seeking out the questions and some of the answers to see if perhaps the past could help us understand the present and the future. And today we want to explore the future the future of the Negro. That's what this program is about that I have with me this afternoon some very distinguished panelists on my right is excellence the chief ESO Denbeaux ambassador from Nigeria to the United Nations.

Mr. Olinto Well sorry Mr. Antonio lento writer and critic from Brazil. Dr. John Hope Franklin University of Chicago historian Dr. John A. Davis president of the American society on African culture. Last but not least certainly Mr. Basil David some British African scholar and writer gentleman tell me that we do best to open our discussion on the future of the negro by asking. A hypothetical question. Does the negro have a future. Suppose we begin with a stranger to our shores. CHIEF. Well this is quite a question and it would take a very long time to

produce a complete answer. I would say that any member of the human of humanity has a future. The question is what kind of future the. Negro like location as a future one that future is going to be depends not only on himself but upon his. Fellow members of humanity in the United States. Here a great deal has been done to create an understanding of the position of the negro and acceptance in most places and that he is just another section of humanity like the Kokesh that he's

entitled to the normal dignity of man entitled to equal opportunities and so on. Mr. Ambassador I understand that the word Negro is not a word that's used in Africa. Is that so it is not a word that is commonly used in Africa. Because when you are oil Negroes you don't go about asking about Negroes I'm talking about Negroes. The question arises only if when you get into a place in which you form the racial minority. So we talk more and this cause more about the Kokesh the future of the Caucasian. The question of the future of the negro because over there we assume that the negro will take it for granted that the

Negro has a future. And then we ask in that context what is the future of the kopitiam will be here. We are the Negro is the racial minority the topic of the question is the future of the Negro. And I was the person working in the international sphere. I'm believe believing honestly and internationally. And I just ask myself what is the future of the human race. And I think that is where we're all going. I hope that within a reasonably short time we won't be asking one another what is the future of that particular race. But what is the future of the human race. And I submit that it is a question that is worth asking now. In view of world developments thank you. I guess you don't mind if I say you know I don't know. We're probably not. Mr. DAVIS. I'd like to say

something about the future negro in the United States. I think that they both said it correctly but one point of view is that they go for the first time I'm bearish on this subject. What do you mean by bearish. I think that the I mean Bush my bullish return but it went on we going to do much better. My experience in fighting raised questions goes back to 33 and I've been doing it all my life. Organizing by working group movements. Fresh out of college. Through the state convention I guess combination of Mr. Roosevelt's at the PC. And. Mr. Herrmann's SCAD and so on. But. At the present time I think we've come to a place in America where all the structures and legal structures at any rate in this society are all point in a positive fashion. I might give you a little of those. The first place our

constitutional law now is completely square on the subject. The court has cleared our law of any distinctions on the basis of race and clear or state laws with regard to this. Secondly we have in some 20 states about 10 of it really good on the subject. We have passed laws which provide for the administrative clearing up of discrimination. Now the reason the United States and most in at least 20 states you can go to and file a complaint with an administrative individual and then through the proper process of administrative adjudication against any employee or living person or housing in that matter process and eventually enforced the court in an equity proceeding. One of the great drawbacks to full status for the Negro in America was the role Roe power aspect in the south and that's gone from America. And I assume will not come

back so that the dynamics of our politics is such that this course that we're on will in all probability stay. And so I think the future looks pretty good for the first time. And I think it's even better because of the nature of the international situation. By that I mean that most of the nations of the world have some kind of ethnic or racial problem or religious problem and the whole world is going to have to face this question in various aspects and as it does. The future of the negro here and everywhere is going to be more and more issue. That's a very positive picture. I was just going to call on you Dr. Franklin to see if perhaps Dr. Davis really overlooked something or perhaps he didn't touch Square on a point that you felt was relevant to this whole situation. Do you think it looks quite as bright as all that. I can't help saying to him his story perhaps shouldn't be here to talk. But. He. Doesn't look. Like.

I don't believe I'm quite as bullish as John Davis and although I certainly would be the first to recognize all of the significant developments that he has so clearly outlined. I think that real and lasting. Tangible thing any improvement must have some other ingredients. I'm terribly excited. I'm terribly excited about all of the legislative and judicial developments that are of a positive nature. But I'm rather depressed about some other facets or aspects of our present position of the Negro of the United States. And it's. These aspects that cause me to be a

bit less bullish if not exactly bearish. You mentioned some of this status. Well I'm not unaware of that fact but the general overall economic position of the of the growth of the United States is not really improving. Despite the fact that there might be some significant improvement at certain levels. In certain areas. The fact remains that that with all of the remarkable economic progress that Americans are making today the disparity between Negroes and whites so far as the actual income that's one thing that's considered is getting wider greater instead of less. It's not merely the necessity for improving educational opportunities. It's not merely the intervention

of government that the state and federal level. It's indeed not merely the significant revision of the attitude let's say of management or of the to the technicians but it's something else and this is the other thing that causes me to be somewhat bearish if I may say so and it is that we still have in this country unfortunately. If they can test the residue of racism perhaps residue is not the right word because it is so large still that. The application that it's residue which suggests that it's something leftover conveys the wrong impression. It is indeed I think still a part of the very fabric of this country.

Let's take another tack. There is a country in Latin America South America that has suggested that it has the solution to the Negro Question. Would you care to tell us a little bit about that. Mr. Antonio Olinto Yes if your question was actually like my answer. Or does it. Actually. I mean it. Yes. And I say perhaps if you could belong so unique to the black people you mean by that that. Amalgamation you mixing it the blacks and how now we have this bitterness that on one occasion a sparkling habit and we have been trying for for centuries in Brazil to make this amalgamation. We are a mixed blood. Now we have four years now. Eighty five million people and all these 85 million people we have in Latin America movements and we have 30 million Latinos 11 million negro Yes 13 million.

Yes. If this is the composition of Africa. Now. To have this composition and the task force that see is a 15 or 30 March as we start receiving today from Africa. When is any Spaniard stopped making these threats. And we received more last 8 million babies between 18 and 30. The 15:30 in 1861 for 3st to the same 30 year 330 has received around 8 million steps in beginning of dependency. We had more than one third of the population was equal and now we are little by little mixing but making a much bigger mission in trying to make them a friend of mine from Nigeria. We can watch it here. I went to Brazil two years ago and I showed him to get way in the batting. And by at that time I carried him and there he taught me what do you like flying Africans

and he. I said yes and we are getting back to you. We are just like both sides of the ball. Do you think this is the solution to the problem here. Is one. Solution. And is the solution we have it first. It does see the United States you'll have me and your wife happy. OK. And then watch have this nation he will have this nation and even then become the enemy becomes my friend nothing more and more than anything. And they are professionals and so on and so. These do yet in the 100 years you have two nations I will have only one nation the class will have only one mission with which to waste it is difficult not to segregate and think of getting something but think that and I take it that it's all me thinking and I said I cannot

live. I don't like. And I don't like it at all. And then we have to get people not too happy. We have to be educated they had plenty litigate have to be taught that they could dance again against all odds. And if we don't educate these we don't do this all of the other megas are wonderful but they won't solve the problem. Mr. lento is amalgamation the avowed policy of the government of Brazil. Now the answer is. Almost almost everywhere. This was a natural solution. It was not planned. No one planned it happened. But this is perhaps the only aspect of the problem but it is an answer that cannot be imposed. What is it going to happen if you feel uneasy. May I.

May I hold this for just a moment so that our courtesy may be complete and universal. We'll get back to this in just a moment. Mr. Besant. Well. I found myself rather inclined to agree with John Hope Franklin because after all what we're talking about I think is not the long range eventual future of this or that section of the human race. What's going to happen in the next 10 years. And I was speaking as an Englishman I must say. I think we're now getting to the point of self fulfillment among the peoples of African descent where the problem really begins to get extremely difficult not necessarily for them but for the rest of us. And that is makes me rather bullish. That's bearish and that. Is. Why are you bearish bearish for this reason.

In my country we have now done the thing which we've never done before and which seems to be most deplorable and indeed cowardly retreat from good sense and that is we have applied immigration restrictions to those people of color. To immigrants of color. That is to say to people from the Commonwealth who come from India or Pakistan or the West Indies and it's above all bad for those in the West in since many of them still are after all a British colonial subject. And we've done this out of a sense of panic here. And I think shameful retreat in the face of it of the difference and I think represented unrepresentative minority. Now we still have got in England I think has strong reason to avoid any rate a residue of anti racialism I would put it that way around. And I hope that this is going to be strong enough to try to produce councils or groups since the fact remains that at the moment we in my country have applied restrictions on a racial basis for the

first time and this makes me think that the immediate future is going to be. Is going to be much more full of controversy. Conflict and struggle. And then in the last 10 or 15 years has been you see as far as England is concerned the English like to. Pat themselves on the back. Well after all we all like to that I suppose because they think that they have been a statesman like withdrawing without too much difficulty. I hope that the chief of Deva will be with this without too much difficulty drawing from a number of African countries which were previously colonies. And this did of course produce a sort of euphoria. And a strong residue of anti racialists began to feel that they in fact had a majority. And now comes along with this very great setback. And I think it should be realized that it is a great setback in which. The government and the Labor Government too

which should of known better retreats from good sense and applies the racial restrictions and at that very time frame we are actually short of Labor now this is the way to my way of thinking. Sign that my country is concerned that we have to think about the immediate future with a good deal of anxiety. Well that's as bad as that is. Yes it is not is a valid question is concerned it may or may not be a good thing and I'm certainly not going to say anything against it but I think that I don't entirely agree that it isn't a very short range solution. It's taken quite a long time for Brazil to reach the point where it is reached now and states like policy because that's the. Way it's going to take a much longer to complete it in as far as my country is concerned. We have got to verify it. I mean that there's

nothing to say that I was talking about which way we were going in the future I was trying to educate the forces that have been set in motion in the general direction. I don't mean there won't be trouble along the way. I can say that with riots in New York the lives of thousands of people. Are just one or two points that I like to take up from the points made by my colleagues on this panel. Now I myself don't feel that the future is going to be exceedingly rosy as I indicated before. I think it's going to depend on the. Pancuronium the these cookies you know these days. It's also going to depend upon what we make of opportunities what he's made of opportunities which American Negro leaders are

calling for the legal community. It's going to depend upon what special measures are made to tide over the transitional phase in which you have in backlog of under privileged position. And. I'm sure I'm very glad that Dr. Franklin pulled us back from a position of complacency because the future isn't going to be easy at all because when you have a problem such as these the more victories you win it is to get over the next fence naturally. And I don't often find myself in my thinking to the position of the American Negro. What about the negroes in South Africa where it is policy to discriminate against them. How are we going to get over that one. Now the same people the same white

people in America for instance who are prepared to do something about removing racism from the American scene. Have not shown the same anxiety to help remove racism from this of the scene and because we in Africa don't deceive ourselves into thinking that racism is a disease only in America. We know that this thing if you scratch far enough into any case and still defend it still in some cases you have to scratch a lot deeper than that. But the thing I think this is universally true. I think it is unique. I wouldn't say universally true because I have met that fine fellows of peace in France among Frenchmen among Americans Brazilians and others who seem to me to have got completely from this.

But I don't think you can go. In terms of country because in every country not only in Britain in every country where you have the whites and the black working together you get the same discrimination suffering that there is suffering. In some cases in some other cases but nevertheless it sometimes is there. Take the case of Brazil. You will take I mean it is. Because this is a very interesting case. And I think that have an experiment that is worth watching. I would say more than that. I don't think that music education. Because I don't think that music education movies before long so it is part of the answer. No doubt that you should give people freedom to live with the like.

You can't impose it. Once you give them complete freedom. No but it's not the full answer because as was pointed out by John Davies which is unfortunately the case that in certain parts of Brazil the negro and he still those easily identifiable from the whites members of the community or their status but their economic status. And they have I don't think they have to wait for this good nation to solve that one. You have to wait a long long time longer than we. Who is president in the receiving end prepared to when done to find out that also that is quite common. This is where you have it going on and subject to discrimination by color gradation. You know you go all the way from your wife to the. Is say one thing about it. Because. I concede

to the Brazilian that there are a lot of responses in the way that some of us know these connections but I'm still looking forward to the time when. One of the senior diplomats in the United Nations will be a person of my color. Mr. Olinto. You seem to be the focal point of some interesting speculations. One he said I'd like you to treat this one in particular and then go on to the other. You said that you know in scratching most any Caucasian if you scratch deep enough you would come across this residue remnant of racism would you say that is true in Brazil to a more or less extent and if true is amalgamation making that less true as a whole I thought that as is a decent answer but of course some of that nation is not for us. But it shows the spirit of the Spirit. And this is to

me as I said in a country where the community is so easy to marry I mean I'm always this is so easy. I mean this is it may make it easier to solve the racial problem. Not only am I going in now we have a racial paradise. Of course if we expect we find especially in the wealthy always stops in Copacabana Copacabana Beach in the central and south beach people are wealthy people. And for you see I don't know when I went in 1951 very early in that hotel in Sao Paulo. And she was denied and of course the man was arrested. We have a lot. Less of him in this law. Any citizen should go and to make the deal as we call and to make the accusation made me stop being stacked against him.

And then they found out it was a poor man who didn't know anything about it. So you don't know them all. Or is he going to deny that they've seen. I was not going to watch them one day. So the way we do it I'm not going to hear. Them. We have. Faith based on the wealthy people want to debate anything like that. And we are changing that. Yes. We. Acted in that. Now you see the importance of an independent Africa. Now we have 30 third book out anyway. They are the people that seem to like the nations they are seen as what they are. That is what in the world health organization suffering in terms of international policy things have changed

and they have changed all of that in Brazil. And so we have not way back that we have left now because it is now a very well past and even basic media and Ambassador. You. Can begin to change. Now. Know we had a discussion in a symposium and they called police in Brazil. And with every effort to get back to the east invite that they thought they would present something they are the symbol of death race that what better means Elaine in her view plus so many US and now not only they are trying to get themselves in debt to Brazil but that the descendants

of their ancestors come back to the US. And I want to get to a subject in a short while which will which comes from a statement you made a short while ago chief of the vote. But before I do that you raised another question which brings us two. Distinguished panelists from Britain. You raised the question of what's happening in South Africa and I think Mr. Davis and you have been to South Africa. You've written about it. I'd like to find out from you what is the racial situation in South Africa. I'd like also to find whether you think the Negro in particular in this country can do more to help negroes in South Africa and should they do more to help negroes in South Africa. Well the racial situation in South Africa is chronically bad. It's now 13 years 14 years since I was there. That's not

entirely my fault since since they were good enough to deport me to. 1951. And then needless to say the very fact they deported me evidence I have the racial situation was bad in South Africa since then I think we can say that is the it has got to go by worse. And the reason why it persists is simply that the minority have the sufficient force to impose their rule upon any large non-white majority to the point where it's difficult to see how those Africans will be able at least in the near future to liberate themselves. They have tried and they will continue to try. But every effort that they make is visited by the most savage barbaric sanctions and repression on the part of the minority which hold power. Now the reason why the minority

continues to hold power is not simply of course that they have. All the weapons all the arms all the other problems in the state it's also because they have been able to count upon completely loyal support from those great nations of the West. The United Nations the United States mentioned that. Nobody is being let off the hook. Remember when the United States in the first place. And my own country in the second. Now the power of the White minority in South Africa rests upon its capacity to wield to call upon the financial. Capital aid of the United States and Britain and indeed of some other countries notably in the last five years of Western Germany which is perhaps the third most important country in this respect and to some extent to a much lesser extent to France. So long as these two or four captures if you like you can add Belgium and a few

other countries. But as long as it's limited to the real culprits. That's my country and yours. So long as those two countries are in fact a lot of what they may say in public and no matter how they may vote in the United Nations so long as those two countries are solidly in the South African government in all its economic manifestations of its life. So long as that is so then we betray. We betray any hope that maybe of even a minimal improvement. I don't speak given of the large scale human liberation of the Africans in South Africa but even the minimal improvement remains impossible so long as that is the case. And if you ask me. Can the. Negroes of the United States or Afro Americans as I've been told I should call them. Can they do anything to help. Yes they can. But this is not a racial

question. This is a human question and the answer must be that everyone who realizes what the situation is and feels it is bad and it is hard to see how any honest person can realize what the situation is and not feel that no matter what in the famous formula their race creed or color may be then they must of course bring the maximum it upon their own people and this is very difficult because here we get into the basic difficult questions of our time. What is the Western economic system. The free enterprise system the capitalist system if you like rests upon the kind of operations which are keeping in. That very minority which is visiting on its majority such horrible such such such barbaric and indeed unspeakable sufferings therefore it's not easy to see how this change will come. But I am perfectly convinced that will come. And I think that the long

range answer to the big question which humans today is at the beginning what is the future of the Negro is really what is the future of the system in which we all of us live. Can the system adjust itself to the point where deliberation for instance of the Africans or South Africa or not you speak of those of African descent in the United States and elsewhere cannot adjust itself to the point where this becomes possible. That's the question I throw back at you. Well and this is a question for you Dr. Franklin but let me loaded a little further. Now the Afro-American negro as you might choose is in a position at this moment when he hopes to be included in the Great Society. And sometimes we will pay the price for that inclusion by keeping quiet about the nature of this particular system. We are so happy to become members of our society that we will blink our eyes at the kind of treatment that

society by its support of the oppressive government say of South Africa is handing out now not only will we do that sometimes but sometimes if we feel that our society does not like that we as open and as friendly to our African brothers as we might want to be it is possible we are tempted even then not to be. You can understand economic pressures social pressure and all of these things in operation. Now this brings up the question of the relationship between the Afro Americans and the Africans. Now obviously all of us Afro-Americans have suffered from the kind of historical picture and distortion of Africa that has been fed to us through the generations. We were taught deliberately to hate to deny to despise our African ancestry and those people who were still unfortunate enough we thought to be caught over there. Still we were taught that they would have been lucky had they come over when we did and left all the bananas and the monkeys

and the torrid climate. We are beginning to learn differently. But I like Dr. Franklin to talk to us a little bit about what the Afro-American or the negro now thinks about Africa. There is so much I want to say I know that you're right going to let me say that. I don't really know where to start. And the first thing I would say is that we have been able to build up still another myth with all the myths that we have constructed over the past years regarding the American Negroes relationship to Africa. I think we ought to remember and day countrymen of yours and a good read them help to remind us several years ago when he published this book called In the of Africa. Story of an uprising we ought to remember that the involvement of the American Negro in the future in the present the

future of Africa goes back to more than a century when Negroes in this country couldn't help themselves. They were involved and interested in the development and improvement of Africa and sometimes the cruelest and most refined and very undeveloped manner but still through Penneys through churches through. Communications of one kind or another through missionaries through educational activities and of American Negroes have for centuries been interested in the development of Africa and have been supporting its people. And I think this ought to be a part of our record now so far as the president is concerned and I think the. American Negroes obviously have recognized first of all the remark of. Thrust forward. The fact the emergence of these mini nations

that doesn't match and has met. I mean the significance of it is it is imaginable it's so tremendous not merely in terms of impressing the entire world. With the fact that Negroes are capable now. Of managing their own affairs as they were in the days of basil Davidson talks about in his last series of Africa his mother Africa and other books but also that perhaps in terms of the American Negroes role he will have a future somewhat of that that the people of South Africa are now having for themselves in other words they recognize the important impact that the new position of negroes in Africa can have in terms of themselves. And it's not altogether therefore unselfish that they wish for them the very best in every way.

I remember that the letter that marvelous. Cartoon of her blogs not many years ago which I hope would not be true now. But he either pick today. A dark moment and a man trying to get service in a restaurant in Washington and they were just about every thrown out when the manager rushed up to the waiter and said don't throw them out. They are American Negroes. Now I am sure that the solution of root for job was just talking about the other day when we were attending a conference in Denmark. And the solution of a number of American Negroes problems here comes from the impact of negroes of Africans on our own racial situation. American girls appreciate that and so far has the attitude of young American Negro students is concerned. I suppose that that there is

the usual normal coach holiday. Oh wait shall we say Mr. Ambassador a moderated moderated by. The normal competition and indeed tell us how that might arise from the presence of someone so exotic as to take take one American he goes girlfriend the way I was I might get something from jealousy but I don't think that there's any real. I started out the other point that one has to remember. Don't you. The other one has to remember is that they're married and they grow a young man a young woman from Africa Nigeria whatever country you want to try and get together. It's not just natural that they will love each other for they come from entirely different backgrounds different orientations different sets of values and everything else. They do have some it is but it has to be cultivated and developed. And and and it has to be worked out. If they merely assume that because they both like to love each

other then they are fighting on the wrong foot. But if they assume that they are two human beings from two wonderful backgrounds somewhat different that perhaps ought to get to know each other better then I think they might make it you to mine. Just briefly we have little I assure you to be very brief but I cannot allow this speech. I don't want you to go without my knowledge in the submission that he made and taking that to be is highly disturbing tribute to the contribution which American Negroes have made over the years to the development of the independence movement in Africa. I think that did me dirty Sterling contribution indeed and that conviction is still proceeding on the part of American leadership. I myself went into the conference in Washington last year which was called by American legal

leaders not to discuss civil rights in the United States but to discuss how they can help to persuade the government to take more interest in the economic development of the African continent. The only thing that I think we must allow We must work on both sides and year so that this interest that the American Negro does take in Africa and that African leaders take in the movement everywhere should go to the grassroots and the understanding of the community of interest that we share should go right down to the rank and file of the negroes in America. Of the African people. Thank you Chief. We pause briefly for station identification. This is National Educational Television. And now the last third of the program is devoted

to questions from the audience you may ask questions of any of us on the platform here. If you just rise state your name make it make your way to the microphone state your name and let us have the questions the microphones available all over the place and I'm sure you must have many unanswered questions about the future of the Negro in America and in the world. Things that we didn't touch on things think we touched on wrongly perhaps questions from the floor. This has been answered and I should like to ask a question of Dr. Franklin. Dr. Franklin do you feel that the youth of today is more disposed to this spirit of which Dr. Olinto spoke his spirit toward integration complete amalgamation in your marriage and so forth. And do you feel that this would be an equitable and significant step toward

the solution of those types of problems which we have not been able to legislate and cannot be legislated out of existence. I must say I'm not quite so hopeful about amalgamation it's all the way we've had in this country for quite some time. I suppose. But. There are mixed population in terms of numbers. We compare favorably with. Resue. Smile. One must remember that the situation was so bad or desperate or whatever you want to call it in a good state of Virginia in the 20th century that that state has redefined what a Negro was twice in order to all out and more and purified the White population in 1910. They redefined what the negro was. And in 1930 they all thought that this was

because we had so enormous program of. No program if you want to call it activity. And another point that I think is very important he said that alone won't do it. And you got to do something in terms of developing some kind of respect for the people for each other which doesn't necessarily come with amalgamation. You mentioned that you fear and that's what I want to get to. I think that. Young people today are much less inhibited much less restricted by these other restraining influences that our forebears imposed on us whether they were white or negro or what have you. I think the youth today are more independent and I am delighted that they

are. The very fact that they feel free in this area. Is indicative of their also being willing to look at problems independently in other areas in other ways. It's not that it's not that they are that I have it it's not that they simply are more willing to marry someone out of their race. That gives me hope it is that they regard this as irrelevant as I am as any dad or as long as we can even talk about race as such as long as we underscore negro or white or any of the other we're going to be we're going to be having problems unless we can really recognize the fact that that color is irrelevant and human relations or any marriage at all unless we can do that we haven't even got to go beyond the Nuremberg Laws. All of the other kinds of

things that have characterized some of our expression in this area so that our young people who simply say this silly I say bully for them. Not that I'm in oh my goodness knows. How could I be. But I am interested in the kind of spirit that this represents which I think is moving in the right direction. Another question. Yes sir. My name is Keith Baer. I am a teacher of foreign languages and so very much interest in words and their meanings. My own feeling aside on the matter of Mr. Davidson's introduction of the word Afro-American entered into the discussion. I think it is true that words represent ideas and that ideas move. Man I would like to know from any members of the panel who can enlighten us. Why sure all of them can. But I'd like to ask this

question To what do you attribute the inclination to use the word Afro-American and do you think that there is any augury of the increasing use of such a term instead of the word Negro. Well if I may address myself that. I think the increasing use of the word Afro-American represents two things. One it is the recognition by the negro or Afro-American population of the United States that that is a real that there is a real viable tie between himself and those Africans and the mother country it is the establishment of an umbilical connection that was deliberately cut off historically a long time ago. That is

also I think a personal or psychological reason for the use of the term Afro America afro american as against negro. Basically in this country we Negroes Negro males in particular are rather emasculated breed of people. We represent a kind of crippling imposed on us by the Southern culture to the extent that our manhood our capacity as men to defend our families or to have families that have found families. I was profoundly put in question by slavery and held in question even after slavery was over how women usually went out could go out and earn livelihoods where we couldn't. I think we need that the use of the word Afro-American is a psychological confession that the term Negro is no longer satisfactory to us. It describes what

we were and perhaps still are. But what we would like no longer to be we would like to be considered men and this is one way of describing ourselves as men. I think that I was struck by what you said and I would like to ask you a question if the word Negro has really little meaning in the United States. Where else does it have any meaning. Have you ever heard of any other country. I'm thinking of calling themselves negroes. I must say I've traveled in Africa a great deal and I heard this. I think that if you travel through Africa you will hear. Africans calling themselves negroes just as if you travel as I have done through great Britain you wouldn't hear the English man calling himself kopitiam because he's not thinking in terms in

such terms. And I think it was a red smear. Now no. Point I wish to make. Within the. United States Afro Afro-American can be substituted term for the Negro but the Negro is a term that covers more than the African American. I used the negro to cover my African-American brethren my Brazilian brethren my brethren in Ghana and everywhere else in the world we have people of color may be domiciled for the time being. And when I went to. A certain part of the United States just three months ago I wouldn't mention it because people here don't share that particular point of view and I. Suggested that as a means of

trying to remove the misunderstanding between the African at home and the people of color abroad we should have an afro negro society. Well I was told that no I said no not for a negro I said Negro society. That included everybody. All right. Seriously. Is that the term Negro was populist on that. Well they did not use that term in these parts. I said well was the term that I gladly accept for myself. But of course there are large sections of. The negro community who don't like it then it can only defeat my purpose if we use the term of case you must go and help me to find the time. Which would cover all of us and. I haven't had any further communication from that source on it maybe that

my great professional will be able to find me such a time because I have been looking for it from many countries very much. If you are thinking of Americans of African ancestry but if you are thinking of all of us a whole new group of nations of the world I'm in search of the world which will come out of this song just as I use the term co-location of the white people. So I think that both terms are very useful and I do not see how we can avoid some genetic gem which will cover all the color. Thank you. Can we get perhaps to the next question. My name is John Darrow. I got up on impounds but don't ask that question. I have three short questions to do Mr. Davies answered Davis and the last one do the s in Miss on the panel. The first one is if you'll find it if we find a new name. Don't we just extend the agony unnecessarily.

I think especially in America if we ask them first and you can answer them all at the same time. If we find a new name for Negro or whatever it may be. Isn't that just an extension of the agony. The second question is and again to you if you know what I know now I would have known that your birth what you know now about life about your life personally and how you would have the possibility of choosing your birth place. But with your choice B and then do the pessimists on the panel. Since there has been a great deal of progress in the last 20 years compared with the last two or three thousand years you'll think we can go back. You'd think that any form of segregation that has been eliminated can be brought back these other pushed. Well since you've directed just tell to me why you did it I'm thinking of your answers I in my. Eye.

I recognize two things one the necessity for some change and the concept of myself and my people in this country. Which leads us to search for a new designation. I also recognize the very stubborn nature of human nature. For instance. Sixth Avenue is still not the avenue of America though it's officially changed. I so I solved the problem for myself on a very personal level. I used the term Negro to designate those black people who came from Africa. Again they were all brought up by slavery. This is my definition and it works for me and the other part of that is I figure that there is always the possibility that we can take this opprobrious word this bone that has been thrown at us and thrown in our face and with our particular genius and energy and love of life make of it something so magnificent that they might want it back again and we won't give it to them it will be something about all men. Now as to if I could go back in time and decide at which place I would like to be born. Well let's see. I was born. In a

carbon tax and Cadell George and I imagine any other place would seem like heaven. The spot. Right. Now for the pessimist on the. Road. I practice pessimism although I'm not definitely a pessimist. I think that there is always a possibility of retrogression in human affairs. And I think that before Hitler came the Jews had achieved a tremendous degree of integration into German society and none of them possibly would have thought that the hero of those two camps would be visited upon them or that this kind of retrogression would happen. I do believe that men under pressure

of circumstances will revert to most barbaric cruelty and that those in the Mideast who are weak and defenseless will get it and I don't care how far up we get as a race until we can solve this problem and change these conditions. We talk about we are always vulnerable. Even now as they say on the streets we have integration at the top but we have outmigration at the bottom. As fast faster than we can be integrated into the society. We are being computed out of it. On the economic level so I appreciate the progress we've made in 20 years but I have my fingers crossed all along the line. Thank you. I don't count myself miss with. That I think it's it's conceivable that we might get into a situation where we would do. Rather rather negroes position is that this is not it's not secure in this country.

If we can do what we did to the Japanese in 1941 I think this country is capable of doing almost anything. And that was strictly on the basis of the people being identifiable as possible possible. Subversives despite the fact there was no real reason for it. Now. If. The color question becomes one of extreme polarity as some countries of the world are seeking to make it now and this is a great struggle arises. That might be interpreted as a racial struggle. International racial struggle. I don't know what that might do. I think both the United States. If it if it if it if it makes their position. Untenable or we will then of course that would it would certainly indicate. That. The position. That there had not been.

In a fundamental acceptance of the negro as a person who a citizen through all these many hundreds of years. But that's what happened to the Japanese and I can't forget that. I simply cannot get out of my mind. But let me ask Dr. Olinto an extension of that question do you think that's possible a role back even in Brazil. Well I believe that every situation is reversible. But if there is one situation that is irreversible and that it was going to end because we had gone too far we are not far left in society and not for letting go free and not forgetting civilization. We have our culture in the world. The more we change our side of the fork it is the radiation. But if the police want to have more control I think. I've heard mention of a word called neocolonialism by which I take it it means that instead of the European countries politically

dominating an African country they will merely economically own it meet its means of production and therefore control it. And this is not as fast as it sounds because there is quite a furor say for instance in a country like Canada because most of Canada is owned by American capital and the Canadians feel like they are getting to be a colony of America. Is there a real chance and as much as the African countries are underdeveloped. Usually they have one crop tied to the capitalist system of production and they're bound up in that. Is there a real chance that by economic manipulation. That a new form of colonialism can be imposed on the African societies which is fundamentally more crippling than that of the past or is it not. Oh I think that there is always a chance that you slide into a position in which your independence is a sham but whether you do that depends very much upon yourself.

If you have a government of Romish a government of corrupt people then no amount to play will save you from that sort of situation. But if you have a government of determined people who are prepared to welcome international economic cooperation but keeping their eyes open all the time as the last is caveat emptor. Watching their own guns all the time it seems to me that they can develop with assistance from abroad without sliding into the new position. So my answer is that it is possible it can happen and it will happen unless we have dedicated governments who are prepared to work for the advancement of the standard of living of their community. Thank you. Now let's get to the next question. My name is Harold Lazarus. You know I ask a question of Dr. Franklin or any of the

other gentlemen on the panel that want to respond to it. The question is a short one maybe not a terribly easy one to answer. What my people good intention people do in their own communities to attempt to assure a better future for the Negro in that community than was true in his past. Dr. Frank when I was teaching at Brooklyn College one of my colleagues who had spent. His holiday spring holiday in. Florida came rushing into my office. He was a member of another department and he said I've just come from the south. I'm so distressed I'm so upset. I'm

so I don't know what to do. And I've come to you for help. I want you to tell me what I can do to help improve the situation of the negro because I have now seen. I've seen it in its Royse words crudest form. And I must read something. And I took him to the window of my office and I pointed to the apartment building in Flatbush and I said you got your work cut out. Try to get a negro in that apartment building. What I'm trying to suggest is that we do have in every community that I know anything about in this country of vast array of problems that run the gamut from employment to housing to education and to just

plain human relations and that there's work for each and every person one has. First of all to. Have some commitment and I'm sure that you're asking me about people who do then one has second. Second I do ask myself what is it that he can do. I don't believe the answer. I don't believe anyone can answer that question for you. I we've been we've been having a great time this summer in. Chicago and some of us have been lying down in the streets and some awesome Some also been standing on the sidewalk and others have been marching and others have been. Ringing doorbells and others have been holding meetings and speaking and others have been working with little children and so forth. And we have all of us I think some talent. And. And we have to ask ourselves what is what is it we can do.

First we have to see the problem. And we will. As I think you do you see it in your own community and not. You know Ocala Florida somewhere see it right in your own community probably in your own life. And second to be certain that you have a commitment to try to do something a third last. What are your talents. They may be writing and they may be speaking they may be marching they may be lying down in the streets you know whatever they are to improve the lot of mankind that SEE ME WHERE WE'RE YOU ought to be. And that's that's about all I can say. I cannot be specific without knowing specifically what was tablets and temperament. Some people just cannot live on the streets. I happen to be one. But I can stand on the sidewalk and. Maybe. That's all. There Any other questions from our

audience which is quite a lively one I must say. And the other questions and the other unsolved problems we can dispose of. But but. Name. Is. Charles criminal. I would address my question to Mr. Davidson. I wonder if the major powers of the world realized the menace of racism as it's exemplified by apartheid in South Africa. Well if they don't realize it it must be extremely hard to hear it. And it's not for lack of telling. I would think that they do realize it. But my answer would be on slightly different lines and that is this. And it's been mentioned I think that you mentioned it at the beginning that the reason why I would be counted perhaps on this platform as a pessimist is not simply that complacency hasn't really got much place here

but also because the fact of the matter is that none of these really basic problems you know on what terms are present them with being so the fact is that that poor nations are getting poorer and most of them happen to be colored and the rich nations are getting richer and most of them happen to be Caucasian or whatever it may be. And until these kind of basic problems are solved it's extremely hard to see how the more limited ones are going to be. For instance in the case of Africa the Africans have liberated themselves with great vigor and courage and success in the last 10 or 15 years. Fact remains that their economic situation in the world has been gradually getting worse and worse during that very same period. These are the the rich nations if only because the terms of trade. The this is as between the price of exports and the price of that imports has been

has gone heavily against them. Think I'm writing this ever since about 1953 all fraud is. Subject to correction it seems to me very likely that all the. Sum of All the that has been given to all the so-called developed countries is much less in terms of gain for their lots which they have suffered through these terms of trade. That is one particular case it seems to me that the world is better to address itself to it without any loss of time. Because unless until that until that. Process of impoverishment or and enrichment is modified and indeed are reversed altered to overcome we shan't get very far. Ladies and gentleman and distinguished members of the panel it seems that our time is about up. I'd like to take these last few minutes to thank these gentlemen who took

time out to come and be with us this afternoon. DR. JOHN A. Davis American society in Africa. Dr. Antonio Olinto critiquing a writer from Brazil chief. So I dabble. Nigerian ambassador to the United Nations Dr. John Hope Franklin. Historian from the University of Chicago. Mr. Basil Davidson a British African who came all the way over to join in our discussion. Obviously we couldn't begin to cover all of this particular problem. On the other hand it is the problem of mankind that we deal with we will never cover it all. We merely try and throw enough light on the problem to intervene to enable those of us who do want to be of help to find a little more reason or a little more method by which they can achieve their objective. I think that man has a great future and if I am a pessimist it's a

short term pessimism. I am of the theater and one of the greatest art forms is the tragic art by which the protagonist dies. But in his dying he learns quite a lot. I'd like to meet you all. Good night. This is in the National Educational Television

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