To The Best Of Our Knowledge; Born Again Gospel

From PRI, Public Radio International, it's to the best of our knowledge, I'm Jim Fleming. Run, Mary, Run, Oh, Run, Mother, Run, Well, how Mary, Run, I say, You've got a right in your mind, Run, Mary, Hip -hop and rock and roll may rule billboards charts, but keep your eye on gospel music. Since the attacks of September 11th, gospel music sales have more than tripled, and gospel's popularity keeps rising. But gospel music's always been more than a pretty sound. Its purpose is to uplift the spirit of its listeners, to help them through their struggles. Gospel music is the soul of the black church. So sit back, relax, and join us for an hour on the soul of gospel music. First up, Reverend Cheryl Jooks. She says gospel music has many distinct elements, from the organ to the choir, but it's the female soloist who makes the music shine. Steve Paulson spoke with Reverend Jooks about women in gospel music. Why has gospel music been so important to African -American

women? Well, it's important to African -Americans in general, but African -American women make up the largest proportion of Christians in the African -American experience, and it's been important because their voices have really shaped the tradition. Even the male composers, composers like W. Herbert Brewster and Thomas Adorsi, who we do call the father of gospel music, both of those composers liked to have women present their songs. So Mahalia Jackson was a favorite soul list for Dorsey. And the word singers were some of the favorite singers for Brewster. The word singers made very famous. His song, Surely God is Abel. Why does that matter so much to you? The fact that women

are the ones who often sing these songs. Well, my interest was more to see how the music function for psychic survival. What do you mean by psychic survival? Really living with integrity in a society that is hostile to you in terms of you're being black and a white dominated society, you're being female and a male dominated society, you're being less than affluent in an affluent society. All of those things can combine to create some serious problems for people unless they have something else pushing them forward, encouraging them to hold their head up anyhow, to go on anyhow, to be strong. And a number of these songs really do encourage people build up their strength. One of my favorite songs by Shirley Caesar is a shout song that she does called O Peter, Don't Be Afraid. Walk out on the water, Don't Be Afraid. And get sort of a push from that and you get pushed to be

strong. You get reminded, Clara Ward has this wonderful song that says, hold back, hold back the tears. God knows how much you can bear, look to the heavens and hold back the tears. So those kinds of songs push you to hold your head up no matter how badly you feel. Oh, Peter, Peter, don't be afraid. Oh, Peter, don't be afraid. Oh, Peter, don't be afraid. Oh, Peter, don't be afraid. Walk out on the water, don't be afraid. Oh, Peter, my Lord, I heard Jesus said, Peter, you deny me. Yeah, don't be afraid.

What makes a piece of music second? The traditional gospel singers would say it is gospel music. It is good music, good music about Jesus. So it is explicitly Christian and the singers consider themselves to be good Christians. You occasionally had singers who have ended up with recording contracts where they're supposed to sing inspirational music. That doesn't specifically mention Jesus and doctrinal issues. And as soon as those contracts are over, they are out from under them and they are singing about Jesus again. So, and this is what makes the audiences for the music so sensitive to what these singers do. What happens when the singers become secular singers? For instance, somebody like Maheli Jackson refused absolutely to sing anything but gospel music. I'm going to need life passing by in my soul. I'm going to stand right

always showing the wrong. If I'm in a crown, if I'm alone on the streets or in my home, my goal is life passing by in my soul. Let me ask you about that division between blues and gospel. Because I know there's historically sort of been hostility in some gospel circles towards the blues. I mean, it's been called devil's music. I mean, if there's anything that's considered secular and you know, not of the church, it's the blues. Does that divide mean something to you? Well, it's very meaningful. Thomas A. Dorsey, for instance, started his career not as Thomas A. Dorsey gospel music composer, but as Georgia Tom blues pianist for my reigning. And if you see any pictures of my reigning in her group, that man on the piano

is Thomas Dorsey. He also composed quite a few blues pieces, full of the double entendres and the references to sexuality. That are just not, you don't do that in evangelical church music, okay? But he as others did went through a conversion experience and then started writing gospel. And he has a wonderful narrative. He composed a hymn that is just, it is everybody's hymn, precious Lord, take my hand, lead me on. Let me stand, I'm tired, I'm weak and I'm worn. And on an album of Dorsey's songs where he actually talks about composing the hymn, he talks about the tragedy in his life of losing his wife and his baby while he was away at a revival. And then he, after he had the funeral, he went over to the Poro College. These were schools that Madame Malone in her system of hair care had established in black communities throughout the country. And so they were available as community institutions. And he was over at a

music room in the Poro College there in Chicago with his Ranger Theodore Fry. And he said he was hurting and he said I almost wanted to go back to blues. But then he says the words like drops of water came and he wrote the song, precious Lord, take my hand. So here is somebody who had been in the world of blues who left that and saw that as a very clear, different space. Now precious Lord, take my hand. Leave me alone. Let me

stand. I am tired. I am weak. I am weak. Through the storm, through the light. For a lot of people, the music does it for them when they're not in the church house. People who have got separated from church life in a number of ways find gospel music a source for

themselves. They have issues with what they consider to be a too conservative position by the churches that generate the music. But the nice thing is you can go to the record store and get the music and on Sunday mornings, have croissant and turn on the music. Or on Saturday mornings, turn on the music and clean the house at the same time. When you're listening to gospel music, do you feel the presence of Jesus? Oh yes. Oh yes. It is sacred music for me. It's hard to describe verbally, but just say yes. Cheryl jokes is an ordained Baptist minister who also teaches religious studies at Colby College. Steve Paulson spoke with her. I'm Jim Fleming. It's to the best of our

knowledge from PRI Public Radio International. Because it's music to the soul. Because gospel is a good news and we love singing about the good news that Jesus Christ. Gospel music is birthed out of our faith. So, you know, we have a song based on what we believe. Why do I say gospel music?

Can I turn a question to you? Why did you love to do it? You want everything you're like good, right? You don't want nothing you're like. I'm saying gospel is good news for Jesus Christ. It's all good news, not bad. It's good news, it's good music, it's fun, it gives you something to hope for, it just gives you life. It makes you just know that God is real. The old man's dilemma with the new man's righteousness basically. So, it's a very liberating experience. And do you feel the spirit of the word? Do you feel the spirit of what it's worth to accomplish and say? You know, Hickenham Powell. That is. Of a blessing.

Days when I'm depressed, I can keep a song in my heart. I can remember a song that was here and I just start singing. And you just feel better. You just feel better. You can treat people better. You know, we forget about color, we forget about just things that goes on in your life. When you sing a song and it has something to do with the Lord, you just feel better. Amazing grace. How sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost, but now I found words

blind, but now I sing. Why do I sing gospel music? I sing gospel music because it's my way of praising the Lord. It's my way of telling the Lord. Thank you. gospel music leaves a great legacy to American culture. One of gospel's greatest influences was on the soul music of the 1970s. Ray Charles, a wreath of Franklin and Stevie Wonder all combined the secular with the sacred to create a mix we still love today. Craig Werner is the author of the book Higher Ground. He says all the different aspects of soul music have one thing in common, gospel. Soul music is what happens when singers were trained in the gospel church who grew up with it and feel the world and process the world that way. Start interacting with the secular music business. So they take the sound and they take the feeling. There's a process that

is been described called the gospel vision, the gospel impulse, which says you begin with your burdens. The cross as the Lord has given you to bear or whatever is hurting you. And then rather than locking it up inside, you testify, you bear witness, you sing it out. And what's really important about gospel is you do it in a community. You do it with other people around so that you're saying, I am feeling low. And then the people say, yeah, I hear you. I share that with you. And there's this amazing transformative process that turns that into a kind of vision of redemption, a sense that we're going to make it to a higher ground. But in the music business, you're in radio stations that for the most part don't want to deal with politics. They don't want to deal with religion. And so what the soul artist learned to do was to write songs and sing songs that sounded secular, that sounded like love songs. Rachel once said it once. She said gospel and rhythm and blues are the same thing. And one you're singing about the love of God and the one you're singing about the love of a

woman. So music is based in gospel. You say blues is based in gospel. Blues is based in the same traditions. It's a different part of the traditions. Blues and gospel are really different. Soul music combines both. Blues tends to be more, here's what's hurting me. I'm going to sing my song. I'm going to say it hadn't killed me. I'm still here. But the difference is that blues ultimately says just keep on keeping on. Get up again tomorrow morning. Go on. Gospel says if we hold together, we're going to make it to a better place. Move on up a little higher. May I hail you, Jackson? Saying, Stevie wonders, keep on pushing to make that reach that higher ground. So they're very closely related. It's the two sides of a coin, rather than separate world. I'm so glad that I'm going to try again. Cause my last time I went out, I never heard what I was saying. I'm so glad that I know that I knew

that I'm going to keep on trying. Still I reach my highest goal. If you're looking for an artist who defined a moment, Aritha Franklin, between about 1967 and 1971 or 1972, was there all the time? Dick Gregory, the comedian turned political activist, said Aritha was a more important political force than Martin Luther King. And he meant it absolutely seriously. He said, you'd hear Dr. King on the news once a night. You'd hear Aritha three, four times every hour. Poet Nikki Giovanni said, if Aritha Franklin had said do it, it would have been done. The funny thing about it, though, is you make clear in higher ground. Her roots are really strongly in gospel singing. That's where she got her beginning. Yeah. Her father, Reverend Seal Franklin, was one of the most important figures in Black America. In Detroit, he was the most visible African -American Baptist creature. He had a gospel review that he took on the road. And Aritha

grew up in a household where great jazz artists, Art Tatum, would visit them. The great gospel singers, Mahalia Jackson, came in literally raised Aritha Franklin up. Aritha breathed in gospel. She went to her father's church. She recorded amazing music when she was 14 years old. Made a gospel album, and you listen to it. And she sounds like she's 250. She sounds like she arrived on the first ship from West Africa, and had been singing ever since. Oh, Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Hey, my hand! And I need your child.

Why then the shift from gospel to soul for commercial success? Yeah, there was simply more money to be made in the second or world. The gospel singers could do well, but Sam Cook's biggest gospel hit with the solsters sold about 125 ,000 copies. That's a lot of records, but didn't sell any of them to speak of to white people. And when he made his crossover success with you send me, that's old millions. There's a big difference there. Interestingly enough, it was at a time when the strategy in the civil rights movement was sometimes called the best foot forward. You look back at the early pictures of the civil rights movement. Everybody is dressed up in suits. Everybody is very polite. Everybody speaks absolutely proper English. Martin Luther King controlled what went on camera. Motown wanted to sign a wreath of Franklin. Sam Cook wanted to sign her to his label. Seal Franklin said no. We're going to sign with Columbia because that's where Frank Sinatra is

making that kind of record. Curtis Mayfield, I think, is the great under recognized figure in American music grew up. Again, he was a minister's child, grandchild, actually. His grandmother was the minister of a very small storefront church about the size of the studio in West Chicago, the traveling soul spiritualist church. And Curtis grew up literally in this very, very intense musical environment of the church. Couldn't have been farther from Arithas. Aritha grew up in a Baptist temple. Curtis grew up in the scruffiest church in the scruffiest part of Chicago. But same style too, this call and response to find the emotion first and the words later. Yeah, and Curtis's style was a little bit different, it tended to be the voices blending in the harmony at the end, whereas Aritha was really a shatter and partially, that's just her voice. Aritha just has a better

voice and anybody. But definitely the Curtis. Curtis had a very, it's almost frail, it's a high tenor voice, lovely, lovely voice, but he knew he wasn't going to go out there and compete with James Brown. There ain't no room for the hopeless sinner, who would hurt all mankind. Just as safe as I'll believe me now, have pity on those whose chances grow thin up, but there's no hidden place against the kingdom's throne. So people can read it, there's a train of common, you don't need no baggage, you just get on board, all you need is faith to heal the diesel's common, I need no

ticket. You just think the law. We talk about finding the emotion first and the words later, but when he found his words they were often more political than what Aritha was saying. Yeah, more explicitly political. Aritha has her songs that were political, it's something like respect, but it was very open -ended politics. Different people could embrace that in different ways, it could be a black power song, it could be a woman's song. Curtis, though, was more willing to be more openly political earlier than almost any other artist, and part of that was that he's so beautiful. It's harmony group, it doesn't sound threatening, it's very welcoming, it's inclusive, he had such a positive spiritual energy that when he would sing a song, like keep on pushing, a song that he got directly from his grandmother's church. He talked about, said, when I needed lyrics, I thought about song, my grandmother, you sing this

song, said, God gave me strength and don't make no sense not to keep on pushing. He said, I knew that it weren't going to let me sing about God on the radio, so he said, I sing, I've got my strength and don't make no sense not to keep on pushing. But in the context of 1963 and 1964, that was a movement song. What happened, do you think, I mean, when people think about the 70s, they think about John Travolta and that white suit and Saturday night fever, they don't think so much about soul music. Well, I think because disco happened at a

time when America was running away from the commitments of the civil rights movement, the freedom movement, and people retired. Vietnam had happened, the assassinations had happened, people wanted a party, they wanted a good time, and they weren't listening. So where does it go now? One would hope that's what's happening in New Orleans, which is the soul of American music in many ways, will reinspire some kind of commitment to community. I'm in the process right now of making some CD mixes for some refugees who have been taken in by Northern Wisconsin church, and I'll tell you, you know, I'm thinking about I say, what do you offer in this situation? Because music is terribly important to those people, and their music mostly was taken away from them in the chaos, and, you know, what I come back to is I come back to gospel and the music that comes out of gospel, that it's what we need. Craig Werner is the author of Higher Ground,

Stevie Wonder, Aretha Franklin, Curtis Mayfield and the Rise and Fall of American Soul. I'm Jim Fleming, it's to the best of our knowledge from PRI Public Radio International. Many of those news have written recently to ask about one of the newest features of the best of our knowledge, the addition of the bi -weekly podcast. You can have excerpts from each of our programs delivered by subscription to your computer. Come to our website at ttbook .org and click on how to listen for more information. And keep writing to us through our website at www

.ttbook .org. We always like to hear from you. Yes, yes, the spirit dwells within us, so I think that singing helps to bring the spirit to the surface. It's just there, you know when it's happening, but you don't know what's happening. Just like how you see trees go like this. You can't see God, but you can see the reaction of God. See how you see the wind? Do you see wind? No, but you see the trees moving, you see the reaction. Every time I turn around, he's blessing me. He's over and over, over and over. He's blessing me. In the inside, I do feel the fire, I do feel the whole spirit moving down deep inside. He

is exalted, the king is exalted on high. It should be a bread of light sent out from glory. You really can't explain it. You have to experience it. But when you have the indwelling of the spirit, when you lift your hands, then you become overwhelmed on the outside. And you can't help but bear witness to the truth. Because he

firms love me. Do you feel the Holy Spirit every time you perform the same one of your songs? Yes. Every time. Yes, I feel it right now. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, praise God. Yes, I do. Jefferson County, Alabama, is recognized as the birthplace of acapella gospel. This style of singing emerged in the early 20th century. When a boom in the coal and steel industries led to a massive migration of African -American workers to Jefferson County, the workers were housed in segregated company towns. They worked for meager wages. With little chance for recreation, they formed gospel singing groups. Although Jefferson County, Alabama, is no longer the epicenter of gospel music today. Two of its oldest gospel quartets still remain. The Sterling Jubilies formed in 1929. And the four eagle gospel singers started in 1938.

Is Joe Watson, who's been the lead singer of the four eagles since 1946? Oh, how did he do it? How did he do it? How did he do it? How did he do it? How did he do it? How did he do it? How did he do it? How did he do it? How did he do it? How did he do it? How did he do it? How did he do it? How did he do it? How did he do it? How did he do it? How did he do it? How did he do it? How did he do it? How did he do it? Like most groups in daily, the Sterling Jubilies came out of Jefferson County Steel Meal. The group was formed back in 1929 at the company quarters of the Vesma Pike Plant. The group was very different in the Steel Meals and coal mines. Back when the Sterling was for his farm. During those early years, the pay was terrible. And the mines and mills were peripherally dangerous.

Well, I even, to heaven, but I been told, The blood flowed over in my heart, in my heart. But all that began to change when the unions arrived. First, the coal mines were organized in the 1930s. Then in the 1930s, the United Steelworks of America arrived in Jefferson County. The gospel groups did whatever they could to help the unions along. No group were closer to the unions than the Sterling Jubilies. During those early days, the Sterling would sing every Saturday night down at the union hall. John Alexander, the manager and lead singer of the Sterling, says that was a big help. If you're sounding good, somebody going, not going to know. Who is it? I don't know, but could I come in and listen? Yeah, come on in. You're going to pull a door up behind me, pull his hat off, walk in and take a seat. If I think you know you've got to have

all the people. I want to hear you sing. And then they went on to join the union. Because they were so close to the Steel Workers' Union. For many years, the Sterling Jubilies were known simply as the CIO singers. That stand for the Congress of Industrial Organization. We belong to the CIO. We belong to the CIO. In 1952, Philip Murray, who founded and prevalent on both the CIO and the United Steel Workers of America. Die. Workers of the Crossed Culture went into mourning. Tell us saying a Henry Hosen remember that the Sterling would move to write a song. The

Sterling went into the studio and recorded this song, it was their first record ever. The spirit of Philip Murray was released nationally and inspired workers from coast to coast. Men, women and churned, cried and heard the sad news, Mr. Murray had died. He was the Seattle lost, but he's heaven's gainer. In the dangerous erection we'll see him again now. Good God, I'm not a best friend, he's gone now. I want your boys to help me just to sing this song, let the spirit of Philip Murray. The news was just getting out. The lagoon cries the head, said go tell it on the mountain, that Jesus Christ was born. But the news had to get out. Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray,

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Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Peter Brantford, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip隸, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Murray, Philip Mark IV, Philip own four eagle

gospel singers. Good morning, fellas. Good morning, Rio Land. This is your own four eagle gospel singers, brother, love. At six o 'clock every Sunday morning, myself and the rest of the four eagle gospel singers arrive at the studio of WWE Indian in Birmingham for our weekly and live Rio program. We've been broadcasted now for 50 years. How come你们 know? Fort talks. Don't call the court or Father are always used to be full of live gospel music on Sunday morning, especially in Alabama. We are just about to last gospel group in the entire country that still has a regular live broadcast and

also we are like to send this program special out to our mom and George who've been trailing the folk you've got for saying for over 53 years she's only a year list this morning and our heart and our mind goes out to our mama George and also my home you the Auckland style do not hell The Poppa lead we it was for the D怪 in grew. Singer started to drift away from the style. One reason is that archipelago is just too difficult. Again, brother John Laugh. It's much easier. Singing with music because it covers up a whole lot. Yeah, what up? You got the everything got to be right at all times or you can tell.

Really, I love for people to hear the words of what I'm saying because every song carries a message and I like to get the message over to people. See, I wrote the same one song where people can really understand what I'm saying and to give up their whiteness and saying, teen and nobody know what you say. So you still haven't gotten through to them. You've been listening to the four Eagle Gospel singers. John is again next Sunday for the same time. Six until 634, our very own four Eagle Gospel singers. This is W -E -N -N Birmingham, Alabama. I'm Reverend Ron. Good morning, everybody. It's 630 in the city.

Later that day after the broadcast of our radio program, there's a few hundred people joining us at church in Brownfield, Alabama. How they do each year to commemorate all our years of singing together. Let it be hard, say it, man. Let's say it again. Let's say it again. One for the Father, one for the Son, and one for the Holy Spirit. All right, we're here. One purpose. That is to have celebrate the well -armed 53rd anniversary of the one and only, the famous four Eagles of Reverend Ann, Alabama. And now, ladies and gentlemen, the word has come to me that there was some concern about whether or not the honorees were going to sing tonight. Some of us came to honor them as well as to hear them sing. So guys, I'm afraid you're

not going to be able to get away with that cool you playing. You ain't your gospel singer. Let's give it to them. Let's say it, man. Let it all say it man again. Yo, friend, I'm just by one of the happiest voices in this world right now. I just make me feel so good to look at all my many good friends and the face you just out to me. Let us say it man again. Open to mine.

Before your gospel singers, we wish to say to you, on this year 50th anniversary, they got a blessing. Some will come and some will come. Some will still hear that beginning from the beginning was. And we are just grateful to God for you keeping the traditional life. Because one of these days, all of us going to sing and that's heaven, that's why. And we want you to continue until God calls us home. May God bless you and may he keep you happy. This piece was recorded by David Isay in Jefferson County, Alabama for sound portraits productions. It was narrated by Joe Watson, the lead singer of the four Eagle Gospel singers. When I get to him, we're going to sing and shout them. There'll be nobody there to turn me off. We're going to look up, give it in the heat of the day. To the mob, them to get

in the place. La, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la. They're must. They'll be you having a somewhere. Oh, yeah. You're listening to gospel legend Shirley Caesar in a duet with Tony. But this is also Tony. It's this mix of old school gospel with a new school that made Tony the number one selling gospel artist last year. It also made him a lightning rod in the black church. Tony took a break from the recording studio to chat with end strain champs. When did you get interested in combining traditional gospel with more popular music? I mean, like hip hop and rap. My

brothers would have like all the secular font, you know, stuff downstairs in the basement. Some of the youngest of six. So after I listened to the gospel stuff upstairs at night, I was sneaked down into the basement and I would listen to parliament, Bootsie Collins and Funkadelic and Ohio players and all that stuff. So I was like, well, why can't I take both of these? And I like what they're saying. I like the way that gospel makes me feel. But I like the way that this funk is driving. So what would happen if I cause these two planets to have a cataclysmic experience by merging together. There are more hip hop artists now who are starting to

play gospel music, for instance, Kanye West, you know, had the top song last year with his Jesus walks. What did you think of that song? I thought it was relevant. I thought it was needed. I think it was long overdue. It's a shame that somebody who not necessarily categorizes himself as a gospel artist would be the first to make such a groundbreaking record when there's so much innovation and talent within the genre itself. I guess it's just a matter of who wants to be ostracized and persecuted for being a trailblazer. Tonya is synonymous with that. I mean, I am the great controversy of gospel, the bad boy, the Dennis Rodman of gospel, I was with these two, because you have to be able to stand up for what you believe and take the hits initially, but it moves a whole genre. What he did was he spoke to a whole generation who would never probably step foot into a conventional church setting and what's so funny, he caught most of his flag from the gospel community because he was nominated for the best gospel hip hop album or song. And they were like,

no, you shouldn't be nominated and you know, you shouldn't be a part of this because he's not one of us and blah, blah, blah. And that's so like the synthesis of what Christ would have done in that situation. I believe Christ was so not that. I mean, he was so relevant to everyone and that's why I have so much respect for Kanye because I mean, that opened up a lot of doors for many of us with that message. And I wish that it had more embraced by those who say they know God. You know, Tony, I was thinking, you're in your 20s, you're the pastor of a church, you're the number one selling gospel artist in the country. That's got to be a lot of pressure. I guess I wonder are there times when you feel like you just would like a break from being Tony? You know, it's so hard being a gospel artist because you are constantly a Christian artist because you're

constantly trying to be what you think they want you to be. And then if you have success in it is even worse because then you have to continue to perpetuate a facade some days because you're just not that person who they think you are. Even what I'm saying to you is probably the most transparent I've been. And maybe it's just because of the space I'm in in life right now where I asked God before I got here to this interview. I was like, if it's your will for me to do this, at least let me be honest with these people. And hopefully through that honesty someone else can be set free. Is this why hip -hop, why rap are so important to you and have had such a draw for you because they come out of the streets and because there's that, you know, that whole emphasis on being real, being authentic? Absolutely, which is why they can see right through

you. I mean, they know. That's why most hip -hop kind of sores are not into the Christian version of hip -hop because it's not authentic. And there's very few that really have that type of credibility because you're just trying to be something for sale or you're trying to be something that you're not, or you haven't went through anything to have conviction in what you're saying. That's why I was drawn to that. I really didn't find out about my African American history until I listened to public enemy, until I listened to ex -planet, until I listened to sister soldier. It was the way I was educated. Without these people, I wouldn't have found out about who I was so that I could become who I was going to be. It's interesting because you've shared the stage both with some hardcore rappers,

some people like Jay -Z and 50 Cent, and you've also sung with some of gospel's greatest names, people like Shirley Seuser. And you think those two traditions, gospel and rap would be about as far apart as you could get, but that sounds like what you're saying is that for you there is some kind of ground between the two. Absolutely. I believe that I am not only a conduit for a message that can cause both of them to relate, but I also see as Tony the bridge that what I do creates between them. A lot of times when you say you're going to bridge something people often feel that you're trying to make one of the other turn into the opposite thing, and that's not it. It's just bringing a mutual respect for what each party has to offer and then revealing how much common ground there really is between the two parties so that they can begin to discuss and a civilized manner and reason together and find out what can we do for you all to not be so judgmental, for you all to take more responsibility over what you're writing your lyrics and then come to a common ground. It may not mean we'll ever go on a tour together, but at least we'll have respect for what

each other has to offer and hopefully empower each other to a greater place because music is a platform that requires a great deal of responsibility on either side of the spectrum. Tony's double CD called Out the Box was last year's best selling gospel album. Tony's also pastor at Truth Apostolic Community Church in Spring Valley, California and Strange Shem Spoke with him. It's to the best of our knowledge. I'm Jim Fleming. You can buy a copy of this program by calling the radio store at 1 -800 -747 -7444. Ask for Born Again Gospel, program number 918 -A. To the best of our knowledge, the recipient of the 2005 Peabody Award is produced at Wisconsin Public Radio by Steve Paulson, Veronica Rickert, Doug Gordon, and Strange Shemps, Mary Lou Finnegan, and Charles Monroe Kane. Our intern is John Peterson.

Our technical director is Carrillo. Amen. Amen. Amen. Hold together now. Amen. Sing a sweet now. Amen. One more time now. Amen. Amen. Amen. Sing a sweet now. Amen. Amen.

That's the way now. Amen. Amen. Amen.