Traditions: Ohio Heritage Fellows; 101; Philip Paul interview

Q:

PHILIP: My name is Philip Paul. It’s spelled with one L. P-h-i-l-i-p, last name P-a-u-l.

Q:

PHILIP: My family was, uh, my mother was from Puerto Rico, my father was from St. Corey (SP?) Virgin Islands and, uh, they migrated to New York and, uh, that’s where I was born and, uh, I guess I should tell the year, 1925. And, uh, I had a family of all musicians really, I had an uncle who played drums and an uncle played, uh, alto saxophone and they had a band and they would rehearse either at my father’s house, my house or one of the other members of the band. When I got interested, the drummer his name was... he was an uncle of mine, John Christian and he played drums and I got... became fascinated by the way he did that and I started banging on the tables with spoons and forks and my father noticed...he was a trumpet player incidentally and, uh, he asked me if I, you know, if I was serious about wanting to play? So, I told him yes. So, he said, well, let’s try it and he, uh, it was a music store in Cincinnati and, uh, New York Whirlester (SP?) where you could buy a set of drums and get 10 lessons free. He said, let’s try that route and if you’re really serious about it, you know, you can go further. So, he bought me a set of drums and I got the 10 lessons and I really got into then. And, I would say that’s when my really serious interest in music began.

Q:

PHILIP: I was about 9.

Q:

PHILIP: Uh, quite a while... about 17, uh, like I said, my father used to play like house parties in New York, you know, you would start at 10 or 11 and work till 5 o’clock in the morning. So, he decided to take me on one of these jobs one night and, uh, he carried my drums for me and played this house party. Sometimes it was very dangerous because you were dealing with the public people just came in, they would fight and argue and get drunk. But, they would enjoy the music. That was my first gig as they called it.

Q:

PHILIP: Alright, uh, uh, many years later I started working all over New York, evidently people liked the way I played and, uh, I joined up with a trombonist that was a good friend of mine, Steve Pullum (SP?) he had a group called The Manhattan Six Set (SP?) and I played with him and he was... also played in the Buddy Johnson big band at... which was a popular band that...they had Arthur Pricesocks (SP?) singing and his sister sang and we were playing Sevoyer (SP?) Ballroom in New York and Tommy Bradshaw was the smaller group, we usually had two bands. And, during one of the breaks Tommy Bradshaw came over to me and said, I like the way you play, I’d like for you to join my band, my drummer is leaving in a couple months and I’d like for you to join. So, uh, you know, I said, yeah, yeah, but you know, you never expect those things to materialize but it did. Uh, several months later he called me and asked me would I come down to Cincinnati and join them at the famous Cotton Club in Cincinnati, so I did that. I got on the bus with my parents, they, they said, Cincinnati that’s a funny name; do they have running water down there? Do they have side walks down there? What’s going on? So, I didn’t know myself what to expect but I came down to Cincinnati and that’s when I joined Tommy Bradshaw.

Q:

PHILIP: Yeah, well Tommy Bradshaw was on the contract to King Records as one of their artists and, uh, I didn’t know it at the time but he was trying to effect a change in the sound of his band. He had a great band. He always had great musicians. They were just super musicians. He always had the best saxophone players, he had Sunny Stit, he had oh, just all the best players. Anyway, he said, uh, we decided to record a tune by the name of Soft and, uh, he asked...they asked me to play brushes on this, which is a far cry from the sticks and the loud sound and, uh, we recorded Soft amount other things but Soft was the big hit on that recording and just went all over the country. And, as a result of that, uh, we made about three or four albums with my playing the brushes, that’s how I developed a reputation for playing brushes.

Q:

PHILIP: Uh, Sid Nathan who was the president of King Records, very bombastic kind of man but he had... he asked me one day, he said, uh, you know, we’d like for you to become a session drummer. So, I said, what is that? He said, where you record for all of the artists on the contract to King. So, I said, fine, you know. He said, one thing I want you to do is, uh, I want you to go to the conserve... you see Conservative of Cincinnati and, uh, study some more. So, I did that and, uh, I had a teacher from the symphony in Cincinnati and, uh, he taught me...what I really wanted was to be able to sight to read music because, uh, I don’t think he had any experience in playing popular music or anything like that but I wanted the knowledge of how to use rudiments and apply them to different rhythms. And, he did, uh, supply me with the information. So, it was very valuable because at King Records I had to play all kinds of music, not only rhythm and blues, I had to play country, I had to play jazz and I just had to be ready in any event that they called me to perform.

Q:

PHILIP: The music I prefer to play? To be honest with you, I like to play jazz. It’s not very, uh, for some reason it’s not very popular now but, uh, jazz provides me with the ability to do other things. I feel as if, uh, most jazz musicians can adjust to other kinds of music, because they have the technical ability to do that. It’s not that its any better or any less in any other music but it gives you the knowledge of how to play different things.

Q:

PHILIP: Oh, uh, 350 and counting. In Cincinnati there was a gentleman by the name of Steve Phacey (SP?), he came to my house, uh, early in my, uh, recognition career when people started to talk about King Records and he wanted to write a book about this and, uh, in his research of the history of King he came up with a discography, it’s not complete but it had over 350 recordings that I had played on. I was very surprised because while we were doing these recordings we were having fun and, uh, trying to be explorative, you know, and find out how to play different... how to make the music exciting and I had no idea that I did that many recordings but we toiled every day. You know, I lived about four blocks from the studio and they would call me maybe 7, 8 o’clock in the morning to come and do a recording. I had no idea who it would be at the time so we just had to adjust exactly what that artist wanted or compliment his ideas.

Q:

PHILIP: Uh, well Sid Nathan like I said, he was very, uh, loud... he knew what he wanted but he had a hard way of trying to convey it to the musicians and we had very good musicians at King Records... just like they chose me for the drummer and percussionist, we had guitarist, we had a bass player and we had a piano player and, uh, they all were accomplished, they all knew what they were doing but sometimes we had artists that really didn’t have a complete idea of what they wanted to do and they needed our help and sometimes Sid would get very tired of hearing the same thing over and he would come down into the studio and try to tell us what to play. I remember one time he came down...when we were doing the Twist, he came down to the studio and he didn’t like what I was playing so, uh, I heard that he was some kind of a drummer but anyway, he grabbed the sticks out of my hand and that’s a cardinal sin with me, please don’t touch my instrument, don’t touch anything, anyway, he said I want you to play something like this, he said, rap, rap, rap, (NOISE) some kind of... so, I said, okay, I grabbed my drum sticks out of his hand and he went back up to the studio and we said, alright, let’s now cut it. And, you know what I did, I played the same beat that I was playing before he came down the studio and that made that record a hit, the Twist because it’s the beat that really propelled that tune. But, I mean, he knew what he wanted. I guess he knew what the audience would accept, you know, the public would accept. But, that’s the kind of man he was. He might say anything to you, it wasn’t a personal thing it was just a professional thoughts that he had at the time.

Q:

PHILIP: Yeah, well, uh, uh, I remember he called me on day and he said, uh, we got a... we want you to record with a country artist. I know you never done that before but we just want you to play whatever you feel. I think it was Cowboy Copos (SP?) or something like that. You know, when you’re young you do a lot of things that ordinarily you might bulk at but, uh, being young, I said, fine it’s alright with me, what time do you want me to be there? Uh, he came in and, and this country group, the guy held a cowboy hat and everything, I said, oh, great. So, uh, he said, uh, I said, what we gonna do? He said, anything you want. So, they played and they started playing and I just picked up a brush with the right and a stick in the left hand and I started playing a beat. He said, that’s great, that’s great let’s cut it. And it worked. And, uh, as a result of that I played on many of the country recordings. Moon Mulligan, uh, uh, they had some people from the Mid...Midwestern Hayride and they came to Cincinnati to record and they called me to do all those things. Even, uh, country and western, uh, recordings that they did previous to my doing at King, they would call me in and have me like over-dub, I don’t know if you know what that... but I would update the drums or if they didn’t have any drums, I’d add drums to it. In the early days, they didn’t use drums on country and western music. So, Sid Nathan had a whole library of country music and for a lot... a long period of time I added the drums to them and brought them up to date then they re-released them and they had a new record.

Q:

PHILIP: Oh, uh, a lot of people... uh, you talk to a lot of people not only in Cincinnati but all over the country, he was loud and he was obnoxious. He usually had a cigar in his mouth and the cigar was dripping all down the front of his shirt but he was a very kind man. I got to know him very well because, uh, I’d go into his office and talk to him and he was very kind but a lot of people have different ideas about him but I knew him personally. So, I say he was a great friend of mine.

Q:

PHILIP: Oh, yeah, all during my 10 year at King Records I was always, uh, working in clubs. I’m fortunate, uh, I guess because of my ability to play different types of music, I’ve always been employed playing somewhere, uh, after I came off the road with Tommy Bradshaw... oh, yeah, I gotta mention my wife, how can I forget her? Uh, after I came, uh, to Cincinnati, uh, I met my wife one night at the Cotton Club in Cincinnati. She’s a beautiful woman and she, uh, was previously a dancer. The Cotton Club used to have chorus line with dancers like you see the Radio City Music Hall, beautiful, brown skin, black girls and, uh, I met her and, uh, we didn’t start dating right away cause some of the other guys in Tommy Bradshaw Band was trying to date her also. But, for some reason or other she picked me and, uh, I asked her out one night and, uh, that was the end of it. I guess I took care of my business, you know. And, uh, that’s one of the basic reasons why I stayed in Cincinnati too and it turned out to be a good idea because as a result I wound up with King Records and I know have a legacy, you know. But, uh, getting back to the question you asked me, uh, all during that time I was working in clubs around Cincinnati. I played about every club in Cincinnati. I played the opening of the Playboy Club in Cincinnati. I was, uh, I’d been a forerunner of being the first black drummer to work in some of the white clubs there. I worked with a lot of white groups at that time didn’t... wouldn’t think of having a black drummer but they hired me and as a result I have a wide reputation around not only Cincinnati, all over the state of Ohio. I worked up here in Dayton at Gilley’s the Great Gordy Meriwether, you know, in fact I worked with him for about several years we did... I recorded several albums with him on Columbia Records. And, uh, worked Wright State University, I just worked allover as a jazz drummer.

Q:

PHILIP: Oh, yeah, uh, as a result of this publicity Larry Nager who is my... acts as my manager, uh, one of my best friends he was, uh, at the time, uh, writing for the Enquirer Magazine, uh, newspaper, it might be a magazine soon but anyway, uh, he, uh, called me up one day and he said, uh, it was around Christmas time, he said, what would you... what would you wish for? What would you like? So, I told him, I’d like to have my own CD. You know, it just came off the top of my head. So, uh, several days later a doctor from... in Alexander, Kentucky, he called me, he said, uh, we heard you’d like to record your own CD. He said, we’d like to be part of that. I said, well, uh, what’s it gonna cost? He said, it’s not gonna cost anything. I said, do I have the freedom to record whatever I want? He said, yes. To this day, I don’t know where this money came from but, uh, I was able to pick my own musicians, all the music that I... the tunes that I wanted to record and the style I wanted to play, no problem. So, I picked some of the, uh, I had some of the best musicians in Cincinnati, I had, Steve Schmidt on piano, I had Sam Jackson on piano, I had Ed Connelly, a good friend of mine, a bass player on base. I had Kenny Pool, uh, deceased guitarist, he played with me. And, I think we, uh, we produced a very good album. It’s called, uh, It’s About Time, Philip Paul. That’s very synonymous with the way I feel. It’s about time that I had my own recording and let people see another side of me other than a session drummer.

Q:

PHILIP: Favella, it’s a tune written by a Brazilian composer. Uh, Shiny Stockings, uh, that one was written by Frank Foster and was written for my wife, by the way, cause my wife has beautiful lets and she used to wear these shiny stockings and Frank Foster is from Cincinnati. He, uh, everyone knows him as the conductor of the Count Basey Band. But, he was originally from Cincinnati. Uh, great, great musician and he wrote this song with my Juanita in mind. So, we did that and, uh, oh, several other tunes. Uh, Now It’s Love... something... it’s just great. I would advise people to acquire this CD. There’s a lot in the liner notes about my life story and, uh, I’m just very honest about everything. That’s one of my problems; I’m very honest about everything.

Q:

PHILIP: I couldn’t believe it when I was approached about this. I recently, uh, I was invited... my wife and I we were invited up to the Cleveland Hall of Fame, uh, in fact, we were in Cincinnati at the, uh, dedication of a plaque at King Records, the King Records site and Terry Stuart and some of his, uh, people came down and he approached my wife, he said, we’d like to have Philip come up to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, do you think he’d want to do it? And, uh, said fine. And, then they asked me the same question. So, they invited us up, they flew us up there, they put us in a hotel. And, we did a lecture and, uh, interview at Cleveland Hall of Fame. I was shocked at that. So, I’m hoping one day to go into the Hall of Fame but now this has happened. I’m shocked, I really am. Humbled and, uh, I’m ecstatic. It’s just one of the greatest things that’s ever happened to me in my life. I don’t know, I really don’t know the extent of it but I know it’s important because, uh, a lot of people before me have received it and it’s just a fabulous, fabulous thought. And, I’m looking forward to it. I have to find the words to say when I’m presented with this reward... really excited.

Q:

PHILIP: Had no idea, cause, uh, see, uh, during... in between recording at King Records, you know, we go out on the road and play and we would run into some of these people, same people. And, uh, when they would come into the studio, we knew them. It was like another guy, you know. And, at King Records it’s unlike the way things happen today. I mean, an artist would come in the studio with just a vague idea of what he wanted to do, no music, just maybe some lyrics and he’d sing the lyrics and our piano player would put maybe a melody to it or if they had a melody we would put the rhythm to it and decide what beat to put it... so, we were all part of the process. So, it really wasn’t something to be in awe about. Like, when the recording was completed we felt like we were part of the whole thing. I wasn’t just this artist; it was me, the piano player, the bass player. We created this. So, but we had no idea, of course, we had no idea that it would become a hit and this music would be historic.

Q:

PHILIP: I’m still in awe. You know, I don’t know about other people but I don’t know how I got here. I really don’t. You know, uh, something my wife tells me all the time, don’t get a big head now, you know, but I don’t realize that the, uh, what’s happening, you know, just something I did on the road here. I hope I can remain that way, I want to be humble and, uh, be appreciative of, uh, whatever success that comes my way.

Q:

PHILIP: It’s, you got the swing. A drummer... I think a drummers responsibility is to make the music, uh, exciting and moving and, uh, I have a philosophy about when I play, I look at the audience and if I don’t see somebody patting their foot or, uh, drumming their fingertips on something, it’s not happening. And, I try to reach that point every night. Every night that I play... I’m playing now, I play every weekend in Cincinnati and, uh, I watch the audience. If I’m not accomplishing that... I think it’s the drummer’s responsibility. If I’m not doing that, I’m not playing very well that night.

Q:

PHILIP: Well, sometimes, yeah, I... Freddie Jordan who is very important to that group of musicians, he’s a guitarist now. He never traveled on the road. He never played clubs, anything. He...he just recorded. And, then we had Sunny Thompson, the great piano player who, uh, work with Lou Reid... like he had his own band. And, then we had a bass player, Bill Willis worked around locally like I did. And, we saxophone players that, uh, some saxophone players played with Bill Doggett who made Honky Tonk. So, we had different group of musicians but the rhythm section was set. It was me, Freddie Jordan, Bill Willis sometimes, Ed Connelly and Sunny Thompson. We were basically... they would make sure that we, uh, our appointments were free to record certain artists.

Q:

PHILIP: Well, that was very unusual because, uh, you know, we’re talking about ’51 through ’64, civil rights act hadn’t been signed and things weren’t too cool and, uh, I remember when I first came to Cincinnati and I was working in the club with a white saxophone player, a friend of mine, Jimmy Mcgarry and we would play a set and come out on the street and go across the street to the coffee shop, they wouldn’t serve me, they’d serve him but it was different at King Records. Sid Nathan didn’t care what color you are, he wanted the best musicians and it didn’t make any difference to him and that also included his staff of people like engineers, uh, people that worked in the shipping department, all integrated. And, we all got along. Maybe after we came out of the studio we went our separate ways but we all got along in the studios. He wanted that, he didn’t... it made him totally angry if a question of racism or prejudice came up. And, I think that’s one of the reasons for his success.

Q:

PHILIP: Yeah, Little Willie John, he was, uh, he was a little guy something like me only smaller and he was loud, he was loud. He’d, uh,...the only thing that really saved him, he was an excellent singer. Like... a lot of the artists you have to remember didn’t have too much experience, some of them did but some of them didn’t. And maybe the artist and repertoire man went in the club and heard them sing one night or something or maybe at church and knew they had a good voice, now but when it comes time to make a recording, that’s a different thing. So, uh, they... it was kind of difficult working with a lot of them but no Little Willie John he was a talented artist. And, Wynonie Harris, very loud, street kind of individual, made a lot of noise, uh, talked about the ladies that he had all the time but he had a good voice too, not as polished as Little Willie John. And, uh, one of the last things we did was like Freddie King with Hideaway, guitarist. He was a wonderful guitar player. He was road savvy, like, he’d come in and, uh, we didn’t have to worry about doing 3, 4, 5, sometimes 20 takes, he would say, I’m gonna record this. I want you guys to listen to this and he’d start playing and, uh, we’d start joining in, he said, that sounds good, let’s cut it and we’d cut it. We did Hideaway in about 3 or 4 takes. The first one was perfect but, uh, knowing Sid Nathan always wanted 4 or 5, 6...he always thought maybe you could do it better. So, but... those are some of the great... great artists. And, the ____ we had more problems with singing groups like Do Wop groups where maybe 4 or 5 individuals involved and, uh, they had problems sometimes with the lyrics or they didn’t sing their part right so we’d have to do maybe 20 takes. But, as a rule it was fun, all of it was fun, yeah.

Q:

PHILIP: Yeah, uh, I have quite a few people to, uh, to thank for, uh, to recent success I’ve had. Uh, my mother and father would have been very, uh, happy about this. I remember when I first made my first recording at King Records, I sent my mother a little 45 and I called her up one day, I said, what do you think? She said, it’s good but it’s so loud, you know. So, uh, I know what she meant because, you know, she being from Puerto Rico and my father being from...they like calypso music. They like a more polished sound, you know. And, at that time at King Records we were making loud, back beat music, you know, but, uh, it got better and, uh, but she would be very proud. I definitely know my father would be proud because he wanted me to be a musician, you know. And, I have uh, a brother who is a doctor and he lives in Atlanta now. He was... lived in New York but he moved to Atlanta and he’s like a trumpet player or something. He followed in my father’s foot... footsteps. He doesn’t play professionally but he loves music and, uh, he’s very... he’s been very supportive of me and I want to thank him for so much for helping me and my wife and, uh, Larry Nager is a dear, dear friend of mine. He’s been, uh, a supporter of mine for many years and he still continues to be and he’s also a good bass player, I love him. He’s a good guy.

Q:

PHILIP: Well, uh, I don’t know if you remember, uh, Milt Buckner he was like a roly poly guy about 5 feet tall and he played with Lionel Hampton and he did Flying Home and all those things, you know, so, uh, some how, I don’t know how this happened but Sid Nathan signed him to a contract so he came to Cincinnati and he wanted to do a recording, so, they called me of course and a couple of the other guys and we did some recordings and it was great, it was just great. That’s one of my favorite sessions, you know. It was part jazz, part pop, you know. We did things like, uh, Left Heart in San Francisco. He put his own style on it. It just turned out great, you know. He enjoys some success. But, he and Freddie King, I think, uh, the most enjoyable... some of the most enjoyable sessions I’ve had.

END