Traditions: Ohio Heritage Fellows; 301; Hasu Patel interview, part 1 of 2

Q:

HASU: My name is Hasu Patel. H-a-s-u P-a-t-e-l.

Q:

HASU: I am a composer, performer and educator for the music of India on sitar, tabla and voice.

Q:

HASU: I was born in a city called Borea, India. And it was an educational city where there is a music college and a good well known called... faculty arts science college, medical school was there. I grew up in a family, my father was a physician and my father had a dream or a vision that he wants... he wanted his children to learn music so they can be humble. And, that is whole... his reason put us today in the music world. And, he spent time, energy, money, you tell me to bring teachers at home or go to the colleges and spend hours and hours, years and years to make sure that we become a musician. And, I grew up in a big family also. Um, royalties... they always come to our home and, uh, my mother was a silent worker, helper, saw the gurus... gurus means the teachers. Guru means the, gu means the ignorance, ru means to dispel your ignorance. (INAUDIBLE) so, our gurus come to our home and she... she served everybody snack and chai and everything and that’s what I grew up and I spend six to eight hours practicing since the age of six. There was no mercy, twenty-four seven to learn sitar.

Q:

HASU: I... in India you don’t have choice, you don’t choose, your parents choose for you. So, he... my father chose sitar for me. And, this is a big story also, he chose... he decided my brother would learn dance. So, I was crying one day, he said, why do you... I’m a woman, I should learn dance and he should learn sitar. He says, no when the woman gets old nobody likes to see her dance. So, you are okay and play sitar and you can unwind in your room and you it can be more beneficial for you.

Q:

HASU: My...my father was a follower of Bharat Makati the person who gave us the freedom of India and he believed in some kind of revelation and he taught that girls should not learn more than boys because they have to self-sufficient in their life and that’s why sitar was not allowed because that’s a job of a low grade family, low class family like that. Sometimes (INAUDIBLE) is a prostitute, he said, no, no, no. This is a very divine act. So, my father insisted me to go in the art and learn. That’s the biggest thing.

Q:

HASU: Seeing the beginning, practicing every day is time consuming. You cannot go out and play with the friends, no socializing, nothing. But, slowly, slowly the voice coming... was coming out from me that I was born for it and it I had to do it. And, that voice still stays with me today.

Q:

HASU:

That means, I had to practice, I cannot give up one days practice. I had to keep playing even though I am sick or no sick, I had to play. I had to teach. I had to perform through things.

Q:

HASU:

I play for the... I am a spiritual person since young age and Indian music was born in temple since 5,000 years ago and it is, uh, it is to please the divine power. So, I’m not a ritual person that makes all the outside rituals. I’m an inner person, I’m more spiritual and I think that I’m playing for the divine power and I’m asking for their mercy in everything to make sure that I play correctly.

Q: HASU:

In the beginning, yes. Because your shoulders are hurting, your hands are not in the right position and to be, uh, my first (INAUDIBLE) at the age of six was a blind, he couldn’t see. I have the photograph and we can (INAUDIBLE). And, I... he told me, follow me blindly. So, whatever he played I had to follow. At six years old you do not know what’s going on. It was a challenge for me but my father’s discipline and my voice kept me in the mainstream.

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In the beginning, yes.

Q:

HASU: Indian classical music is like the western music. They have rules and regulations and that are, uh, modes and scales and everything. From the scales there are so many raga’s called melodies coming out and there... they all have their rules and regulations and you have to follow the rules and regulations. So, seven notes in ascending order and seven notes in descending order by (INAUDIBLE) and combinations it can create infinite raga’s called melodies, but we have rules and regulations. We cannot play the way you want to play. There’s a time distinction, there’s a notes distinction, there are ascending and descending order, there are so many things in the raga. So, only pure ragas are allowed to be played among our major tense scale. We have tense scale, no major, no minor, tense scale and within tense case we have only pure ragas allowed to be played. It’s very... very strict rules and regulations, that’s why I wrote the book, for every raga there’s rules and regulations.

Q:

HASU: Raga is a melody. It is a mood. It is a time. It is construction of, uh, many important notes called rade (SP?), second important called (INAUDIBLE), uh, Jhati (SP?) means how many notes you are taking, uh, aaroah, ascending order, aroroha means descending order. There’s a time of the play. Right time of the play. Our forefathers decided to help commission of the notes that can (INAUDIBLE) into that particular time which can affect your body, mind and soul. Sadi Raga is a morning raga if you play in the evening. No matter how good you are it will never hit you. It will never touch your soul. So, very serious musician, I’m not talking about (INAUDIBLE) person like me or my guru, our serious musician will play raga according to the time zone. So, this is a raga structure. It’s very difficult. And, to me... between two notes also there are 14 microtones and which raga uses that microtones, we had to learn oral tradition, there is no book. So, I learn oral tradition, everything. So, the moment you play something, some raga, exactly told you, is right or wrong on which one you are playing.

Q:

HASU: It’s a story, yes but you create the story, there is no story. You create the reason. You create the scenario and play around it. To me it’s more spiritual so I go around (INAUDIBLE) or divine mother and see some of the... plays... how they play around it and how you make combination and (INAUDIBLE) of the solas (SP?) called notes around... given structure of the raga and that’s how raga is created.

Q:

HASA: There are two great musicians Kansar and Paneeth Riv Shankar. Paneeth Riv Shankar came in ’69 and played (INAUDIBLE) and make the musical popular in the world and it’s a great credit for Indian music. We start with (INAUDIBLE) Kansar my guruji, he, he came in my life in the mid... in my midlife, he came in my life and, uh, his style is different than Paneeth Riv Shankar. His sitar is different, that’s what I explained in my book, that what are the differences... the strings... (INAUDIBLE) how many strings we are using, what we are doing, it’s different. One style, my style of my guruji is called in-kane-garana. That is a garana means specialty of school. There are names, everybody has a name there. So, my... I’m gonna talk about mine. Kane-garana where my guruji seven tradition of the music (INAUDIBLE). So, so many long unbroken strings and it is a vocal style. So, when I play the sound it looks like a human voice coming out from the instrument. It’s not a (INAUDIBLE) because our strings are thicker, our playing upside is different, position of the... the way we put the fingers, they are different also. (PAUSE) (INAUDIBLE) I’m not comparing, I’m just telling you. His strings are a little (INAUDIBLE) than us, so that’s why sometimes you see the metallic sound there or hear and you see. And, I request everybody, go to my new cities where I played with, uh, (INAUDIBLE) India, (INAUDIBLE) and see how I communicate with the tither and how I play in a vocal style. Two things.

Q:

HASU: My first guru was blind so he picked up his sitar and put it on his lap and taught me but he taught more by vocal. So, vocal was in my blood in the beginning so I pick up his sound that this raga is this (INAUDIBLE) flat or e-flat is this rage is e-flat. I grew... I grew up with nuances how I can pick a particular raga. In the middle age this maestro came into my life and was a proponent of this vocal style. He’s called giakee sitar. Giakee means vocal style sitar. And he picked up a (INAUDIBLE) one and that is more difficult because you want to replicate the human voice from your instrument from that there is 18 metallic string. There are 18 metallic strings and you had to bring that human voice from that, that is most difficult.

Q:

HASU: Kind of bumps. (COUGH) Yes, too much difficulty.

Q:

HASU: Yeah, (OVERTALKING) I was defying everything. Defying... RESTART

In the beginning when you play sitar so, people will come to my father and he said, do you know doctor, you are (INAUDIBLE) with the Muslim guru and Hindu guru for hours together, what are you doing? He said, don’t worry about it, I trust... I trust my daughter and she’s okay, she’s fine. When you get married in the same caste the, the caste is not open to accepting you as a musician. So, they won’t let you play, they won’t, no, appreciate or they acknowledge... it’s a humiliation... as a musician, okay, cause you are at the age of 20 I got married and I was accepted in (INAUDIBLE). The (INAUDIBLE) was the, the what do you say... the barometer to recognize you as a classical musician. So, it is not easy for a Patel, my last name is Patel and was more considered community. They would think about business more than the art. But, was born in a different era. So, after 20 I got selected but everything went (INAUDIBLE) I could not pursue my music for years to come and that is... but still I didn’t worry about it. I read my music, I sang my music in my mind so I won’t forget the... my sequences, my steps, my notes and nuances and all this everything, you know. And, then you come in America... uh, Pura, he came... my husband Gimpora (SP?) (INAUDIBLE) then I followed him and I thought I would be okay, I would be liberated. But I was in a small town, we were in Pennsylvania where that is a 1,000 people lived, 2,000 so, there was no personality. Still I pursued to go to Carnegie Mellon, I went there. They accepted me to teach there then it is to take the job in Ohio so that I again big blow to me, I couldn’t do it. Then I, what do we do? Live in a joined family, mother-in-law, father-in-law here in America, so what do you do? I study first because I had two master’s degrees from India and I still didn’t get a good job. Music and accounting. I was so defying everybody. (INAIDUBLE) in 80’s. I did my master’s in computer science and accounting (INAUDIBLE) masters and finished in two years. I wanted to defy everything because you see, I’m worthy, you know. Then, I got a job as a programmer analyst and worked for 30 years but still did not leave my music, raised the kids, raised the mother-in-law. I woke up at 3:30, 4 o’clock in the morning to play hour and a half, 5:30 I was out, 6:30 out the door and worked for life. And, in the evening once a week started a (INAUDIBLE) college and on the weekend, I taught at home. So, I kept myself 18 hours a day schedule.

Q:

HASU: My husband wanted to study for his engineering degree, his master’s degree. He got it in a Columbia city in South Carolina.

Q:

HASU: I... you are... your inner self is suffocating. You had to do something because this is where I’m born (INAUDIBLE) I’m born for it. I cannot give up. So, nobody’s in the house, I kept playing, practicing. I kept practicing so much and whenever people know she’s a sitar player, let’s call her. No money, nothing but I’ll go. I will go and play. So, that’s how it started slowly, slowly and that’s where the Carnegie Mellon and some people noticed me.

Q:

HASU: I like to play everywhere in the world and most in the music festivals where I can reach the big mass. It’s not the money, it’s not the fame but I want to instill the love for Indian music in everybody who listens and appreciating. So, I will... still I’m performing, after two weeks I’m gonna go to California to perform at some workshops. So, I keep... keep on going and, uh, only thing is against me is my age, I’m getting old and I just want to, to make sure that I have enough strength to play everything.

Q:

HASU: In my college... my father put me in the college when I was not married so I became... first thing, I was studying two-degree courses at one time. One in the arts and commerce like BA, BA-Comm or something and another that is a music degree. At that time, in the music college no woman sitar player was or student was there so I was the first one to graduate from my college. And, and I received a four-year scholarship and medal and everything.

Q:

HASU: I was in August 15th performing in, uh, IIIHS Conference in Montreal. Uh, organized and owned by Miss... Dr. Rosalind... no... Madeline Rosner. And, I had... they always call me for the conference, there are very strange subject like, uh, so many different things which you emphasize but I go there, give a PowerPoint presentation but night before they gave me a spot to play sitar concerts. So, around that day I was about to start the concert and then, uh, Dr. Rosner came... Madeline Rosner came, oh, we have something surprise for her that I thought (INAUDIBLE) closer to me some, some, uh, sudor or saint will come from (INAUDIBLE) giving me surprise cause I so close and then she presented this award that... Lifetime Award for my humanity cause I worked more on a humanity ground than my money making ground or (INAUDIBLE) ground. And, that is what my... and I am so grateful for that one. So, grateful. (BACKGROUND VOICE) And I hope this award will lead me to the... in the future to do more humanitarian work.

Q:

HASU: It means a lot to me. It’s, it’s a... I feel like it’s a... I’m so grateful for that. I left Indian 40 plus years ago, 20 years old and came here. My point is that, at that time there was no sitar player no the billboard and as of today also there is... I don’t hear any big billboard girl sitar player. And, here also in America, in United States I, I didn’t involve with Indian society much but I went to the International Alliance for Indian Music where there are thousands of women in the world are members and they are Grammy winners, they’re composers, they’re performers. I work with them, I became a member and a board member with them twice... two time and brought this Indian music in the limelight and I go to Taiwan or go to China or Canada, so they can know what is Indian music. And, they gave me a platform to perform. They gave me platform to perform and that’s where they recognized that I’m... I have some quality that I can... and that’s where you see the American composer (INAUDIBLE) they write about me so much. You won’t believe it, I don’t know who’s writing, when they are writing.

Q:

HASU: I don’t go hardly to India. I’m sure there are many, they are playing hard, but I do not know. I do know now.

Q:

HASU: Composing in Indian music... see what happens when you learn Indian music it’s oral tradition. There is no book, there is nothing. So, when your guruji compose something it goes in your head right away and you memorize. So, composing is like in your blood, it is in my at least... in me. And, then, uh, it become easy for me and then I learn an edition when I was 16, 17 years old. I... whatever my guruji taught me for 10 years because he was blind, he did not know what I’m doing. So, I was scribbling everything, his compositions and everything. So, I wrote down everything in that way and I told one day that can we publish a book from this? Can you talk to the college? He can do it... (INAUDIBLE) city not college. So they talked to the (INAUDIBLE) city. They published the composition book and around that time I was 16 years old, it’s still a textbook in my college. It’s an Indian edition not American but... still a text book. Then, this is last 10 years when Dr. Nan Washburn from Detroit or Libby LaBelle from Eastern Orchestra called me for playing with their orchestra. Unknowingly, knowingly I ended up composing for everybody. (INAUDIBLE) didn’t know what I am doing but it was a hard time and, uh, it is, uh, so much painful also because you had to depend on someone to translate my music into the western score. So, first tour with orchestra I had a very hard time. (INAUDIBLE) But, uh, I composed my whole orchestra from start to finish, it’s never happen in history of Indian music before, never. Not a man or... I didn’t see it. In the classical music they play India raga in the pure form. So, in (INAUDIBLE) for example, there is 17 different instruments, 59 players and I composed for each an everyone who plays what, not. And, then in the third concerto I had hard time also. People... because when you ask somebody to help you, this Indian woman doesn’t know... some people take the advantage also of you. I ended up learning (INAUDIBLE) as the musical software (INAUDIBLE) notation and wrote a whole orchestra, uh, concerto.

Q:

HASU: Inner voice, defy. RESTART

When the call comes, I never say no. Anybody calls me, tomorrow anybody calls me, I say, okay, I’ll do it. But, now I have, uh, so much confidence that I can put it in a (INAUDIBLE) notation. See, if I want to ask for any arranger, no big deal, I can do that.

Q:

HASU: It’s not easy to write for a western musician, time consuming, I do not get big budget. So, people... I spent money on my own but I want to make sure that I do it. It’s a dedication for the music and I had to do it.

Q:

HASU: Uh, superficially (INAUDIBLE) yes, it’s difficult. It’s difficult because they... they do not know the nuances of D-flat or E-flat between notes because, uh, see, what happens C and D for notes, uh, western notes, D-flat is equal distance to the western music. Our D-flat floats between three microtones in between. So, each melody... you do not know which D-flat is using that raga is which melody. We are (INAUDIBLE) so that’s what it is. So, I wrote the whole thing, I made some signs in the orchestra in the syllabus and then I went three or four times to the colleges and sat down with each and every musician what they are playing. Anyone believe it, my son notice also. When it reveals or when somebody was playing wrong note I do like this, he said, how did you know that I was... it was me? My ears tells me you (INAUDIBLE) a 100 people, I have to know who’s making what. My ears tell me who does... who does the mistake.

Q:

HASU: I’m still not happy but I’m, I’m grateful that God gave me this opportunity to do this unusual work and this is, I’m gonna leave... about the orchestra. And, my orchestra we studied in the future with so many people.

Q:

HASU: We could have done much better, more than that.

Q:

HASU: Oh, it is beautiful, you listen in the car both of you, all three of you. With orchestras they’re one (INAUDIBLE) and the third one is gonna give you DVD also, so no problem.

Q:

HASU: That’s a good question. Uh, 1989, I still remember very clearly. November. Drizzly, snowing, cold. I was miserable whole life anyway without music then my mother-in-law was there any my husband and I came in that room where they were both together. I say, I cannot stay without music, I have to play music out. And, they say, who gonna come and learn from you? I say, I don’t know. Oh, you do not know how to play. You do not know... I say, okay, everything is there but I’m playing. So, one of the friend, she... I... she... I, she met me the following week in the social function. He says, can you teach my daughters? I say, yes. So with three kids, I start two daughters and one son and you know what happened? She would bring the kids cause she can have confidence in me and she dropped the kids and go home. So, I had to teach one kid, one... other two sleeps. I had to wake up the other one and this is where I started, you know. Then, slowly, slowly my name came out and I don’t know how, I don’t remember but then one boy from a Oberlin College came and started learning sitar from me. He was very feisty, dominating, possessing boy that this is my guruji not anybody’s that’s what it is, in a good way, I’m talking about in a good way. He says, why don’t you teach in Oberlin? I say, I do not know anybody. I do not know anybody; how can I teach? He says, give me your resume, give me a city whatever... I didn’t have nothing around that time. I... he took it and they did not pay attention to me but then they gave me... so, okay, teach in this room, in the (INAUDIBLE) mudroom. I taught in a bedroom. But, I didn’t give up. Slowly, slowly everybody knew who am I and then Oberlin Conservatory I taught and every class had 8, 10 students, that’s a big class sometimes. And, overflow students will come to my home and learn. And, (INAUDIBLE) also will come to my home and, uh, take whole... it was magic time for 20 years.

Q:

HASU: I was, uh, that boy... then I slowly, slowly they allowed me and reserved my class in the conservatory. (COUGH)

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So, the... I started teaching in the mudroom like then slowly, slowly they allowed me to play... uh, teach in a conservatory... regular room. So, I will teach four classes or five. So many students come so you don’t know how you can adjust to everybody, different specialties so you can do that thing. And, uh, then they gave... told me to have two credit hours, uh, where they take my class they get two credits and the degree. Students were not only music, uh, specialty, they come from any... any space, physics major, science, any majors, you know. Some students are physicians now, some students are scientists, some are, uh, teaching in colleges, some students are musicians, they are playing orchestras. Although I taught in my music also not in sitar tablar voice but I taught Indian music, improvisional music on the, uh, violin, viola, double best cello and, uh, yeah, that is, I don’t remember the third one. But, that is how I taught them all the Indian music in their instrument. So, they played, uh, uh, that... uh, music in the orchestras. For example, one girl, Amy Wise, I still remember and you can (INAUDIBLE). She learned violin and she learned, uh, four years or for a student, came every day, every week and learned. And, she was graduating, she said, guruji can I apply in, uh, YO YO Ma’s (INAUDIBLE) project? I said, what? What is that? I didn’t know that the first thing. I said, okay, no problem. I say, you have to write something. I said no, you write and I will correct cause I didn’t want her idea or her thoughts about me, how she learned. We did it, YO YO Ma and then she called me night, well after the competition, there’s so many violins. Guruji (INAUDIBLE) can I drop out? I said, what? They are so good. I said, no. You keep going. She was selected (INAUDIBLE). This is what my learning ability and her caliber. So, many students, not one, so many. (INAUDIBLE) She’s accepted now in several symphonies, two or three different. So, this is...

Q:

HASU: (OVERTALKING) I place my sitar, I play and I tell them take it out (INAUDIBLE) not from your instrument and they replicate the sound, the replicate Do, Re, Mi, Fa, So, La, Te, they replicate (INAUDIBLE) and then they learn raga and I say, replicate D-flat, E-flat, F-sharp, how you can do it, they did it.

Q:

HASU: Yes, and that what’s I taught. That is my biggest, not a challenge but it’s what my vision to teach the kids. You can give me any... I have two kids that tomorrow they’re gonna come. One boy is 32 years old. (INAUDIBLE) play for six years but don’t count that once cause they take lots of vacations. But, that boy has a mental problem. So, when I taught whole... taught him how to hold the sitar he forget to hold. Then, he... teach him how to place Do the C, he forget... and teach Ra, D, he forget other notes so he cannot... he had no memory span, never at all. He’s playing right now today, he tunes his sitar, he plays in the rhythm, he plays everything. (PAUSE) And, one girl is coming tomorrow for, uh, voice. She’s the same but she was very hyper. So, it was difficult for me to teach. Jump on my or back and forth. So, how can you teach this but my patience with any kid. Today she remembers all the compositions and with no problem (INAUDIBLE). These are my satisfaction in my life.

Q:

HASU: It doesn’t hit my head. It doesn’t hit me at all. But, I think, I wish them well. And, um, but before I teach them music, I want to (INAUDIBLE) and possess rules and regulations when they come in my class. I have a sheet of paper, I’m gonna give you if you want it. Uh, there are rules and regulations that you say namaste, no shoes, no tank tops, no shorts in the class. You have covered lap with a shawl, piece of... piece of cloth and, uh, don’t cross the instrument... don’t cross (INAUDIBLE) instrument, don’t kick the instrument, don’t step on the book, don’t step on anything. Believe me, I must have taught more than thousand students in Oberlin College only and they all follow today or I don’t teach them. With the love, everything happen with the love.

Q:

HASU: To me it’s big reason in the Ohio there are so many students they are after school program. They cannot afford to come and learn. I want to go to (INAUDIBLE) I am requesting Ohio Arts Council that I want them to learn different music so they can see the beautiful music of any part of the world. And, these kids believe me they can see tons of, uh, letters come from them. How they write, what they observe from the class and they will learn the new music and when I lead the class they know the name of the Do, Re, Mi, Fa, So, La, Te, they know (INAUDIBLE) and the (INAUDIBLE) also. Everything they (INAUDIBLE). My mission is that when I go there what I teach they should know exactly before they leave the house. And, I like to go and more and more schools, you know.

Q:

HASU: Dignity, respect for the music and me upon my lineage and the priority of the mu... Indian music, class... in the classical form and they can spread or they can take that to the next level for their students.

Q:

HASU: Uh, change, yes. Change is, uh, mental status. I became more confident. I became more determined that I had to do it no matter what happens to you. My music did not change cause it’s authentic music from the traditions to come, so we like to keep that culture and that, uh, the specialty of my school called Karana (SP?) (INAUDIBLE) and I want to keep that so much, uh, in, uh, intact and I teach the students in the same way so they can pass it out together. That is the only way we keep our music alive.

Q:

HAUS: I drive my family crazy, involve everybody. My... both the kids are my rock, they’re rocks. They will do anything for my music to keep it alive. Time, money and energy will come to any father distance it will come to make sure mother is selected. And, uh, tell me...

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The passion is that... the passion is for... to keep the music alive in a pure form and what happens of a guru’s name shouldn’t be tainted, that’s the whole thing. To us, guru is like a creator. Guru is like a mentor and guru is like a destroyer. Destroyer of what your evil... evil stuff and that’s where we... I grew up and we all grew up but I follow... I like to follow that way. And, that is my passion. I practice, I compose, I slow down because of my, uh, health problem and the surgeries and everything but I’ll come back. I’ll be back strongly.

Q:

HASU: You are a student till your last breath. Yes, I’m still learning. In the morning I don’t play my music by myself. I have my guru just sitting, put it on my ear and make sure that I play exactly what he plays, I want to play exactly what he plays, I’m trying to do. At his speed, his clarity, his nuances, I want to put it in my hand and that’s my passion.

Q:

HASU: We didn’t talk about legacy’s. Uh, second, one thing that biography I talked about that (INAUDIBLE) Dr. Jennifer Kelly interviewed 25 women composers of the world but living in the United States, that is a condition. She interviewed many, many women composers. She came to my house, stayed three years or three days and then, uh, took the video, audio everything and then she selected 25 composers. There are so many Grammy winners like, (INAUDIBLE) and everybody is there and she selected me also in the autobiography. So, I want the people to read that how much trouble I went through as a woman, how much trouble I got the humiliation, you have no idea how much humiliation I got it, too much. Then, second thing, while with recovering with my knee surgeries I started writte... composing the India raga’s into my Indian notation system. It is a format to compose. I compose hundreds of raga’s, raga’s means a melodies. And, then I learned that those hundred raga’s translated in transpose it into the western score system called Syllabus and that is the most toughest one. I cried, tears came out, lost so much data but I learn and I put... I’m looking for a good publisher cause it is a... that book will be so easy for anybody in the world to learn Indian music in a pure form. There is a history of Indian music for 5,000 years and 30 pages of the bullet points. Sitar structure, the terminology, my college and everything is there. So, my point is that this book is, uh, some kind of living legacy traditions to come.