200 Years; Lobbying As A Force In Government

from communication center the university of texas at austin this is two hundred years in the year nineteen seventy six the american republic celebrates its two hundredth anniversary as a part of the us bicentennial program at the university of texas at austin two hundred years explores the past present and future dynamics of history's longest living democratic society this as rex we're for two hundred years this week we'll be talking about lobbying as a force in government with loesser lewis go to associate professor of history in the university of texas at austin white curtis director of publications and the university's lyndon b johnson school of public affairs and larry garber assistant professor of government at ut austin let's start the discussion by establishing the squad lobbying is respected the lobbying is an institution with the roots in the nation's history there's evidence of

lobbying in the first congress in seventeen it and sam or a king of the lobby in the eighteen fifties had headquarters in the rooms of the appropriations committee at the capitol and the delays are earlier like collis p huntington the southern pacific growth of his relations with congress have to pay the money to have the right thing done and has only just unfair to do it during the early twentieth century the old secret law be feted and the new professional organized lobby appears that the memory of the old lobbying gave modern lobbying attainder the legitimacy which continues to influence the way in which lobbyists and lobbying or perceived that you pursued a lobbyist right gathers has given us a historical perspective than we do have today i think a much more sophisticated lobbying on a variety of levels in the course there i think we should make clear at the outset was we generally think of lobbying in regard to the

congress that in fact lobbying and goes on at all levels of government and at the federal level and certainly not there constantin the congress but there's a video ranting that goes on in the executive branch and regulatory agencies and after that low you just come back from abroad love yourself on the palm of the new procedures well i think that both white and louis are correct in their interests of lobbying is an effort by special interest groups to provide information to members of congress have a lot of their credit agencies regarding policies of the lobbyist which be enacted or are ways to defeat but often portland lobbyist far off so they're not just provide information to provide a bit of incentive to undertake those kind of programs and really fair amount of pressuring it will go on and good natured often relational part lobbyist to work in

congress murtha agencies and while lewis does either that the the hidden lobbyist activity of the late nineteenth century hat he's appeared in integrated and i still believe that there is a good deal of a shadowy activity going on now illegal activity that connectivity them of the us are unaware of for example in my experience in the majority whip office in the health representatives one of the things i became very aware of was that quite unknowns to the average member of congress the party leadership deeply mr on albert mr o'neill and privileged mcfaul we're in very close working relationship with lobbyist and quite often when a lobby member we go into a member of congress his office to illicit information concerning how they're going to vote for a bill that lobbyist we go directly back to the leadership unknown to a member of congress and related information so there is sort of a hidden network of relationships between lobbyist and the party leadership in washington there were often

where i imagine one thing that i loathed most interesting that the lobbying that went on was legally if it and the us what are they legal limits of lobbying is it in an mri there isn't protected by the constitution do that in states where there's what is legal what is illegal and ariel levy well my feeling is that that competition basically don't protect lobbying by providing protection to petition for a regressive grievance and then that is essentially what lobbying is actually of an effort by a group to redress what they perceive as a grievance and so the most basic sense lobbying along those lines is protected competition the question of course is what won a wealth to one defined as a repressive prevents and a legitimate ever intending who petitioned for redress of regions through the petitioning for redress remains and actually buying records for you and i think even that line that we often only to fire

line then you look the legality emerges i would agree with lack of that unquestioned way and the rebel arrives that the ratification that does that it doesn't mention loving the bank robbing him in the pure sense it certainly fallen in that category that as lois now in the beginning we leave yonkers periods and our history when this can of protesting petitioning has taken that either an improper farms and we of course had a lot of questions in recent years about their exactly at what was being done an attempt to influence the legislation are our policy at the congress aren't exactly right lewis and natalie robot telling us a little bit and i'm a historical perspective about some of the events in lobbying which it gone too

far they knew there was an illustration of two where we put somebody in jail for their parents' influence the work well in the last several years is called a role in several administrations pick up the paper and all but there were really many as i recall successful prosecutions for lobbying the more notable examples is the nineteen thirteen when woodrow wilson announced that they were trying to pass a tariff bill and that i said that there is no people's lobbyist at the capitol may prove all the senators before a congressional committee to announce what their assets were were they being influenced by lobbyists to turn up that they were receiving information but there were no evidence of payments in their periodic lobbying investigations even was go through the congressional documents every ten years there are periodic eruptions of lobbying of one hundred other scandals and various states and it payment of money however is a

very delicate thing to handle naturally a group is together to support their own interest perhaps a group of college professors it together to support the interest of college professors and they will offer apps for union are whatever provide certain funds for supporting certain kind of candidates perhaps every voluntary basis but nevertheless through the structure the organization to read their interests were threatened and as a people don't normally contribute money to a candid in war and i can't vote against than continuing on all interest and so i think it is legitimate for people in a clear that part of supporting candidates through finances in tale of trying to get the candidates to agree with them on issues the question of the court not to go too far in making that i direct buying relationship but i do think that a lobbyist group has a perfect right to make it clear that there are certain policy position beyond which their continued

financial support for the candidates in future elections will not continue as a duet the statement that president truman made back in nineteen forty eight and some jeopardy well it was attacking some obvious is a column the cost than they were working against that his he's a reporter there what would you call these people if they're working for your program and you say well i wouldn't call them citizens working in the public and i as a gaffe in hours that things don't agree on what that one's perspective is it about that particular issue in question obviously a lot of them who we talked about their lobbyist representing special interests than the solomon indeed they are especially interested in us dollars or special assignment for eventually and all of health officially dry who are the most powerful lobbyists who are very very good

well i didn't have been cutting several years ago the texas legislature in the diaspora pfeiffer that question and i found that technologically jurors who were primarily from business areas and have different constituencies on labor lobby the most powerful lobbyist for those from labor areas and labour constituency found this powerful that could really aggressive hands on perspective however before coming here i looked up and some records to save one settler groups had the most lobbyist in washington and by far away business interest groups are the mode forever even in terms of having filed in congress as a lobbyist i would say however that it's healthy i know in the democratic party is certainly an extremely powerful lobby and is the most consistently important lobby in that party nominee of the republican party as opposed to more diverse this group would be the most important lobbyist there at the testing and now i just

wanna make one time out something and i said and that is the talking about the texas legislature it's on arresting the man and i don't fully understand the significance of that but in texas generally people in politics and state government don't refer to lobbyist so much as they refer to the lobby there were some chamomile and whereas in washington about every car having heard that term used in that white people speak of a lot of obvious in a much broader sense and of course there are so many inner workings for such diverse cause as an interim step that it would be impossible to think of him as a monolithic force that that as for a specific as a lobbyist no sewer for most powerful most effective and so on i think its that particular stand there have recently been in washington tax bill which had been up for consideration

and here in the ways and means committee in the house announced senate finance committee and in years gone by where an opportunity to observe some of this firsthand these days girls particularly relating to taxes they were big businesses are and talk and batting average for example this is what you want you my god what has been referred to in the world series or the super bowl for the obvious this is one that this is one the royal baby's come out this is not your individual or small citizens groups are coming in to say about that getting at a highway are extended are at a street closed or something like this but this is where you're talking about potentially hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars and you have the highest paid and some of the most talented and skillful people in washington showing up personally to attempt to influence legislation i think it's important to understand what white means your offer by influencing legislation

it's not simply the evenin breeze of a lobby are the lobbyist far providing information on one of the major perception that i had in washington and i was also serving waiting for a while was the way in which the lobbyist served as a web of communication and network of communication and network of pressure between the members of congress and for themselves so that a member of congress working with a key lobbyist for a key section of the bill we'll ask that lobbyist and perhaps other lobby members working to contact other members perhaps to use the lobbyist members back home in the district to contact that member and through the lobby of that pressure on his other college in the house or in the senate virginia votes from a lobbyist or just providing information that will be closely aligned with key members of congress and maybe individual through whom those members work

or with in the end were to pressure other members of congress in building coalitions behind legislation so awesome is oh you're suggesting and probably correctly that they play rather useful an internal role in the legislative process so that there is a much used by the legislators is using absolutely at that i observe the lobbyist closely at that subcommittee the committee level and also at the party leadership level for poor behavior and all three level they were actively and closely aligned with key groups in this case the democratic party that i was observing working with than building legislative coalitions and i in fact two of the perception that if you were to take the lobbyist out of the congress the whole network of congressional activity would collapse the government the congress would not have individual and a working building of coalitions the lobbyist ever run into conflicts of interest that is that they find that their loyalties to carl albert are conflicting with their perceived loyalties to their employers and in order to preserve india's women have to go with

albert brothers i think that that does have a lot in fact i believe there is almost at a record between the lobby of the democratic party lobbyist that if they felt you know and other natural democratic party lobbyist a corporate lobbyist and so forth and the party and the party leadership they add that the democratic lobbyist with the ethyl say i'll lobby for mass transit and lobby for dairy farm and we all have a real identity with the party in sort of realize that in the long run the best interest for you to lobby years to coalesce within the party and a coalition of lobbyist having both the form and the labor and how the legislation so the farm bill this past year as an example one of the major groups working for the farm bill but they have felt iowa and other non farm lobby because they felt and if they get the farm bill passed and they would inherit certain form votes for their later legislation later air and helping her in that we talked about these people or what what kinds of people are lobbyists does one become a lobbyist

for congress and if you win two or three elections and political part of it away yeah i think you know hang on it's important mentioned in that context is that the staff than any of the congressional staff we say in recent years a dramatic growth in a number staff members in the house and senate but that they're there they're two things i think that we should mention your first lawyer that leave their lobbyist frequently have their most extensive contact with staff members that his staff assistance to individual members of congress are staff members of committees and frequently the staff members set of service filters between a member of congress and a lobbyist now that isn't to say that they're in some cases that certain lobbyist don't have radio contact with members because they did and the other side of that is that many people receive their in their training you might say and everyone expands it or even as congress are on

as staff members and that then after having i learned the ropes of capitol hill with a yawn tonight's well paid job representing a trade association are some interest group or another in wars one no long that lives man named cole porter died was probably would be among the top five or ten leading a lobbyist last twenty five years mr oldham to abe fortas in their law firm and you're probably not one out of a thousand americans didn't apply to paul porter was but he was a man of great importance can i ask you a question about the role of the public interest law be assisting someone anomalous and what we've been discussing them and where they were almost lobbyists against lobbyists special interest lobbies and they see themselves call the public interest that's true to a degree certainly the

public interest lobbyist later the raiders and phone calls and so forth have been very responsible in lobbying for reforms that would open up the process and whole lobbyist himself too close or standard then and cut down the role of money and so forth and washington in that regard they are innocent a lobbyist in lobbying or i think they are growing up and the sign that i have have really encouraged by increasing willing to the lobby is critically nader himself and his group to re enter the legislative struggled to recognize it for what it is a contest between various interest in various people most of them with all of them have you know good motivations and to endure that struggle and to try to play a major role in drafting legislation and in helping to pass key legislation for example on the energy bill that here the consumer advocates began to play a major role not just in the role of upholding lobbying activity but in the dentist than

four key kinds of consumer legislation and energy legislation and so the role that i was describing earlier that lobbyists play in pressuring members of cost worries was a role that nader and his organization began to play very forcefully in energy legislation here finally the very is slowly transition coming and i think it's a very desirable transition which people who have long been underrepresented but as a consumer interest and so forth or becoming organized into key lobbyist groups and are entering the struggle and ultimately i feel since we have the official protection of lobbying really the best thing that a group concerned about the public welfare in this country can do is form a lobby i think it is encouraging to see that mr in as a consumer and environmental groups because i think they have a potentially a significant contribution to make and it is important to them to be our imagine and to get their viewpoint across the cows

dictators from informational stand on it is that they do have a significant contribution to make in and simply informing a member of congress and staff members or people in the executive branch where it might be about particular issues and rain hats things like that might otherwise not be now you jonah both been there what is the impact of constituent male upon college i think that varies tremendously according to the member of congress concerned about just a futile gesture to write your congressman i don't think it's a futile gesture i'm sure there are cases where members of congress play relatively little attention but i think is still it's a theory out the best method at least for a starting point and to the average citizen in the country that's one that really are the best that way that they can begin to communicate and i think that and

fat and thought about and i hear she unknowingly semi person's communication i think you really have to distinguish here that kind of letter that are being written off earth for a letter that specify the real problem in a letter indicates some knowledge of the problem and perhaps a specific case a problem that kind of water will be given a great deal attention and really matter a great deal and secondly a letter from someone who that addition to you know the nature of a broader problem of a broader policy problems be given some attention but form letters which the group sends out two and three thousand at a time and this is the bottle or imitation of letters that really will not be too impressed with the two men yeah i agree i think those enrollment limited impact people don't seem to realize that they really don't make that much of an impact let that is encouraging start layering

of that and realize that these campaigns brad and put what will be the role of the lobbyist the individual would be even more important well one thing we haven't mentioned that we have to mention in regard to that question of the fact that congress had become quite an open institution and so the lobbyist can meet in open sessions open more jobs and so forth and in that regard perhaps are becoming a bit more legitimate for bringing government out of the opening in so doing bringing interest groups out into the open as with haters graders also helped legitimize a role so i think that in the congressional renowned heart their inputs are going to continue to be a major climate where of them perhaps pointers for lifting clarify if what the future will be like at the bureaucratic level the culture of a great deal of pressure exerted by lobbyist there and that therefore it's not is open a profitably from my perspective i think that's probably true i think that may be the problem area and years to come because i think because is that congress has taken

to become more open and because of the public pressure that's going to be generated on lobbyist it to act more in the open that the attention may well focus on the kinds of things that are going on with executive mansion regulatory agency the only sure cure for the rules of lobbying more lobbying and weather prognostication is we're going to close this discussion of lobbying is of course and govern our panelists have included louis gloom associate professor of history at the university of texas at austin where perlis director of publications in the university's lyndon b johnson school of public affairs and larry garber assistant professor of government at ut austin says rex we're for two hundred years two hundred years as part of the united states bicentennial program at the university of texas austin is a continuing series of weekly conversations about the past present and future

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