The Inquiring Mind; Coal: The Return of the Old Black Magic?

from the center for telecommunication services the university of texas at austin this series inquiring mind produced by public station kqed fm in association with the news and information service at ut austin these discussions examining ideas and activities of a major university community hsbc's over the energy picture for the united states today is extraordinary critical and complex is a dynamic phenomenon subject of pressures and the mainstream consumers environmentalists producers and politicians so begins a book entitled coal processing and pollution control the author of the book doctor tom egger is my guest dr edgar is a professor in the chemical engineering department at the university of texas at austin his book was released in nineteen eighty three by the gulf publishing company of houston dr eder why did you write this book i would assume that a

great deal has been published on call and why was there a need for another book well you're certainly correct call is a study it calls a very old subject to think back and many hundreds of years it's been used as a fuel for many centuries our course so there's been a great deal happening in coal technology during the last ten to fifteen years and so it seemed appropriate that we but someone tried to present up today to view where the technology is today and where it's going now might add that there are and have been written in the last several years of several books on call some of them are not really what i call beginning books for even a scientist or an engineer yeah you really have to know the business in other words well i think that that there's a lot of folklore so to speak buildup around use of coal and

unfortunately wanted to understand much of that before you began working with the technology who would you say is the audience for your book it's fairly technical well early technical although i would say it's more address to the technical lay person it someone that doesn't necessarily know much about coal and wants a book to begin his education there certainly are many actually almost encyclopedic type work so they're available today on some written as recently as nineteen eighty one but that is not where i tell someone the start if they want to be a learning you addressing the topic that sort of comprehensive youngest deal with like how to get the coal out the ground it's very broad media with many different areas i think it's important that people know you're dealing with coal understand that the whole range of issues involved with its use the way which you

mine coal so the number of impurities you bring up with a call when you mine it may have a large impact on processing the color on so it is very difficult to decouple the various steps of coal processing when you start with mining in through transportation and then it's all about the utilization why theirs are why should cold be so important in this country we use a lot of it i think that first of all there are several points to be made here one is it there is there's a lot of coal and the united states is our is our most plentiful fossil force false fossil fuel reserves and i think that the it's clear that the boiling guess as a role is short lifetime terms of the next hundred years there's certainly a bit during the nineteen eighties going to be adequate going guess so in the united states as well whenever

oil that we import an artist to consider the really is an energy crisis there's so of course so much more oil outside the united states the united states and under present policy were probably importing thirty to forty percent of our total usage we've actually a decrease in mount oil usage and consumption over the last five years mainly due to the us more on reels becoming popular in general awareness of the need for conservation our a list this only represent some marginal improvement in our reserve picture it's as hard to get a definitive it here's how much oil and gas is there others much argument over when we got to that ten year supply twenty fifty it's hard to say it was certainly not to hundreds or thousands call on the other hand if we continued using

color present to a rate or consumption while and that one considers all calls in the united states or there is a one thousand to three thousand years applied caldwell hearted really wrap your mind around we've heard so much about you know the the including finite use of oil to realize that we could go a long ways with a call that we have right but of course as we rank fuels interview they're perverts of use of oil and gas ranks of ahead of coal because so much easier to handle only polo player a pipeline system in this country for the usual investment and is not easy to give up the idea convenience and an economy that's available and in such a system and nuclear is another of fuel that the more energy source it's been received a lot of federal policy but also of

adverse publicity and it's gonna provide a larger share of our electrical generating capacity over the next twenty years but in the last five to ten years has been very difficult to get nuclear plants even approve much was constructed and icy nuclear because of the adverse effects that people perceive becoming less of a factor over the next twenty years now perhaps with a new type of nuclear technology this might change that at the present time at work were pretty much you know holding a service there's sturdy low on them not much is going to change would you say callous primarily used in an industrial setting it's not the sort of thing or encourage people to to use in our homes if ever to its armed and anna course another prawn comes up right here and that is that

call is not an informal explain the true or fuel to use compared or gas so there are many more problems posed by individual use of coal how you control the pollution that might there come about from every house on the block using coal so from that standpoint this one the sighs hughes co authored from anbar more control standpoint is much preferable to use it on a large scale or a small scale citizen power plants or we talk about the large plans for converting called a synthetic fuels these kinds of things ah think the visceral words attractive hughes called i think one of the figures i ran across one set of our coal resources in the order of trillions of terms can we get to our land and if we get to it can we use it i think the the three

korean towns is a number thats recorded for the toll resources there other numbers quoted by people such as the year the us geological survey which indicate that that call which is a recoverable given the current status of mining technology is much less and that there may be on the order of one trillion tons you know i'm still quite a lot the us and within cruz and technology you know maybe that number's going become larger are also of course questions of economics called witches three thousand feet below the surface of the earth is certainly much more difficult to recover when that coal which is only two hundred feet below the surface coal which isn't very thick coal seams the sale the order of fifty feet thousands which you find in india and western of mountain regions that calls are limits were cracked it to recover by mining such as using strip mining

then call sandwiches or two feet and fitness which the court records most of which were difficult recover an iconic fashion so there are questions of economics editor and enter enter into this so this is you know how much you willing to pay to get the core of the ground and then what you willing to pay to use the cold to make it again and informally acceptable to would you say the technology is advancing and we really been moving in the direction that we visited is insert a farsighted to meet it to say well we know that when i have to go call so let's start working that direction or has there been kind of overlooking well yeah i'll go back to the rituals just a mermaid earlier which was the call as an old technology and factor the energy crisis that of the world experience especially united states during the nineteen seventies was one that certainly

encourage people to look at coal technology and say how can we solve this important oil problem how to use domestic resources in order to provide the energy supplies there is certainly a great amount of research and all of that was carried out to mars lander government sponsorship of local there's quite a private sector involvement to to try to to come up with ways that will make coal more economic to use and to be a portable wider variety of situations that even about energy in years ago well it started i think that then the early seventies we recognize we have a problem and there is a great deal actually during the nineteen seventies our other we know that during the nineteen eighties that oil has actually gone down in price and that is use of color versus into these outside factors of divorce is competitive and price of natural gas is not expensive and people

tend to want to use those field because that's again the infrastructure that we have we're not used to coming in and radically changing well although there are certain cases if we take the ten state of texas for example of them that way complete changeover from using oil natural gas for power production the one that uses call arm if you go back in the early seventies about eighty percent of all natural gas that was burned for power production was burned in texas and california and now that number's been reduced auto burglaries been certainly some government and so those two the regulation to encourage the changeover from natural gas toward to call so we have susan plays the technology they're same thing is that right now however the technology

has reached a period of stagnation in a sense a win might say it's occurred reflection were able to sit down and sort out maybe some of the good ideas from the bad ideas and that sort of like a coal technology that are still some back to research program just it's a much more lower not asking the garment you out and build demonstration last approved this process or that process it's rare other more of a long term look at coal more research basic research orientation in terms of the activity you're listening to the acquiring mind my guest is dr tom egger professor of chemical engineering at austin were talking about coal use in the us let me ask you to do something that may be a little tricky i'm wondering if you can do a sort of a layman's vu of the coal processing situation what happens was it comes out of the ground what where does it go through in until it's used ok ailsa certain because of their so many ways to do that it says

it's difficult but i'll try to get you listen or autumn of course i was a call is says is mind we have to be concerned about transporting into words going to be used and does not necessarily a trivial operation you may want to carry out cleaning up the call itself for the removal of say some of the dirt that involved with the the mining process it may also decide that you want carry out some chemical steps were where you're going to clean up the call even further as example some call you mine love contains garden more sure anyway one draw the coal so you're actually transporting less weight and some calls when you're thirty percent more of your body and then transportation cost is significant or certainly and in fact their transportation cost can be and many times greater than the mining cost to protect them called its mind in the western united states and then transported rough place a

thirty nine or miles to other places the transportation cost might be thirty dollars a ton whereas the mining causes five or six dollars a ton so it can be a big factor after the call it reaches its destination then again most of the questions regarding coal usage have to do with dealing with them with three objectionable pollutants that though we encounter with coal use the first and foremost is probably saw for a second term somewhat similar type of oak wood would be nitrogen and a third one would be a particular matter which comes from the ashes contained in court which is basically entered the turtle so anyway which we use coal we have to address the hall the sulfur nitrogen and particulate matter are going to be controlled

so that the emissions from a coal plant are and are really accepting warmth and satisfy the current regulations as promulgated by a normal protection agency ratified by congress is so present over what to burn coal in this case the commercial technology is that of course you can you have a furnace in which it calls burned and the the turtles which are immense the furnace include things like sulfur oxides which is also called esso to nitrogen oxides and the particulate matter is carried along with the year for us the approach to handle soffer oxides so might include the most decorous curators which are basically across as world limestone is so henri together with the us a two to react and former punjab some like maternal and this is a basically a

solid waste which has to be disposed of cause another problem is as it does create new trails one pollution problem for another in the course of that one of the major objections to stack its rivers that's the prevailing technology you're saying stack guests grabbers right what is the square robert couch a reservist is again the name for the device allows you to mix of this limestone and water as the two together it's like if you want easy analogy to a person the carbonated beverage you know we could does all see into carbon dioxide and beverage and as a way of if you want favors removing carbon dioxide we do the same kind of thing or there certainly are cameras chemicals early bowley remove pollutants from gas streets nearby chemical reaction or buy physical absorption so this is the basic process is care about the expense of this very expensive for the command typical

large scale powerpoint in it something like twenty percent to the capital cost him apartments over talking about a billion dollar our plant them this correct cost her two hundred million dollars for the scream or system is not like a small island by any means we mentioned its nitrogen oxide some of the approach taken here is somewhat different of people found that that by operating controlling the operating conditions and the furnace of keeping the first enters a somewhat laurels reduces about nitrogen oxides that produced so most of the art technology used today as a duet controlling the margin oxides in the furnace rather than having a separate device to treat the flu this fall and the particulate matter that i mentioned it can be a can be very small articles on the order of microphones and

generally approach use their early two for one approach is to use of a device called a letter stoic percent of later which is a little device that if you if you pass a political currents through a gas train contain particles of particles are attracted two electrode an eclectic their announcer effective way of reducing particular missions another way is to just use a filter device which is a fabric were you pass a gas through the fabric of the courses traps the particles sand there and what we all watched on the ear of the fabric itself and in the cleaner gas passes for both commercial technologies and what other problems posed by these things what what would happen if we didn't control them or think there were were saying some evidence that the day with the acid rain problem of acid rain certainly there's much controversy still

bring about who is responsible and what are the years that she follows but to the latest report by the national academy of sciences as indicated that they believe that many of the older coal burning plants which look at least in the city reverse possible for esther apr watch the solar plants are operating under old regulations they were built before the vikings before nineteen seventy one say and they are subject to different regulations then then new coal plants and in the legislation they build force existing plants to go back and retrofit their air pollution control facilities in order to achieve the new standards so we have many many plans which are peripheral standards this is either burning in many cases high sulfur eastern call

and this you know it's a tremendous amount of sulfur dioxide and also there may be nitrogen oxides involved in the acid rain question to their meager a logical patterns and ball because they soffer oxides an auction oxide may be produced in missouri that you don't really see the acid rain problems up in new york as very difficult to pinpoint cause and effect on the situation in the us while they're still a major argument about what i'll be done actually epa has not yet decided are they going to force utilities using these old coal plants to retrofit as somewhat large costs lowered were talking about holy spinning a hundred million dollars to retrofit their plan so that they can reduce sulfur oxide emissions it would have to be worth at them and some kind of the recipe a cost benefit analysis are people concerned about as a grand i think they are two wanted to

pay higher electrical bills and utilities position is that that they believe that consumers are not going to get as much benefit out of them spending a lot of money on second street i use telling me that the day of going to saying quote cheap energy it has passed it done and it ain't cheap necessarily to know right now we're we're in a period where oil prices have stabilized but i think long term now we're going to see increases in energy prices and we already have a disparity between united states and in europe on gasoline prices a factor to the one i get that it's a question of how much people are willing to pay fort lee and barbara and it may turn out that if two years from now we determine that are willing to pay enough to make solar energy our chief oil producing electricity and again this one are people willing to pay for

an orator have a cover livestock and be able to turn on the heat and keep your house at seventy degrees or semi six degrees in when or whatever you happen to prefer and stole her life clayton garment one other heavily with this question of what you want to pay for keith you say if there is a single message in your book you'd want to convey to people when it attacked the messages that there is technology available for using coal formally accept the word we've tried to give people an idea what the trade offs are between using certain kinds of technology and what the cost might be incurred in using them and also tried to inform about to know that there are commercially viable means using colorado except when my guest is conductor can enter professor of chemical engineering at ut austin speaking on his book called processing and

pollution control i'm kathy glover ford inquiring mind you've been listening to the inquiry line a series of programs about the members of a major university community their ideas and their opinions expressed in this programme do not necessarily reflect the views of the university of texas at austin inquiring mind is produced by public station in association with the news and information service and distributed by the center for telecommunication services all at the university of texas at austin latin twist is the longhorn radio network