200 Years; The American Bureaucracy

from communication center the university of texas at austin this is two hundred years in the year nineteen seventy six the american republic celebrates its two hundredth anniversary as a part of the us bicentennial program at the university of texas at austin two hundred years explores the past present and future dynamics of history's longest living democratic society this is tracks where for two hundred years this week we'll be talking about the american bureaucracy with us or larry dodd assistant professor of government at the university of texas at austin richard shot assistant professor and the university's lyndon b johnson school of public affairs and dagmar hamilton also an assistant professor in the lbj school of public affairs and a former democratic government designed to provide checks and balances between the three branches where does the bureaucracy fit it must start with that market that begins imagining government bureaucracy and then i

suppose the bureaucracy as they public perceives it is neither accepted nor a legislative minded and how it the sponsor to the executive in that they executive appoints many the people confronted you understand it supposedly responds to congress in that congress sets the guidelines they didn't want to go back to me constitutional period will find that there was very little realization of the scope of the day's modern day bureaucracy and those days a function of robberies small the constitution takes only several almost passing references to the possibility of bureaucracy it speaks for example of the necessity of the heads of the department's to inform the president oh the right of congress to impeach civil officials and so forth but it really was not foreseen as institutional force at least in the eyes of the founding fathers you think they imagine a department

in general and how you have to do well if they were saying we mentioned only three and at the very outset it began to look as if the bureaucracy especially in the hands of hamilton who's editor the treasury could become a farm through which we might have ministers are serving authentic prime minister in hamiltons the case of the bureaucracy might have an independence are from the president in which they would be represented in congress by their heads and player for a role in congress however after health of them eyes as secretary of treasury congress rapidly i insisted that that form of organization sees and gained independence immediately since that time we had the real problem knowing precisely what to do with the bureaucracy far as saying it's not really a part of the executive per se is not part of the congress i have the part of the history presented a problem is

that because the founding fathers did not really for paris for a bureaucracy provided many checks and balances between the three institutions that they specify the constitution but they provided no mechanism whereby you need institutions might related to the bureaucracy check the bureaucracy guy the bureaucracy and we've had to search for these mechanisms of whereby to relate to each of you has given some a quick viewpoint in definition of bureaucracy before you go any farther does what would we include in the bureaucracy and i would hear things like of the bungling bureaucrats now a little more of a what is it well when most people think of bureaucracy at least those people who are somewhat familiar with the scope of government are talking about the executive director of the sea which to day numbers something like to half a million a full time civil servants nearly all been covered under the protections of a merit system which means that you have to pass some kind of narratives animation in most cases to be

admitted to the civil service it's not your list of one home well it can be in the foreign service for example which is then they use them in the professional court term missions but verizon says is an exceptionally kind of cells resistant unknown tests were close to voters well there are a number of people who would suggest that will amuse with his family but they're it's not an elite club but it certainly is a probably a little bit harder than those classic aptitude test that you take in terms of high school activities but nonetheless it almost always people i know i was i've been through several kinds of civil service exams are easy and hardened are somewhat harmless but at the top of this bureaucracy they're supposed to control it at least from the president's perspective is a very small group a contrary of political officials numbering probably not more than one or two thousand who manned the top levels

of the executive departments and agencies the secretary's the under secretaries assistant secretaries who are by large presidential appointees and directly under them are with them are a sort of a second layer all political officials that we call skittle see appointees were also selected for policymaking jobs and it's their job to get on top of this bureaucracy and a guide but as mayor john kennedy and some others atop the broccoli have suggested leaving as the present is the ultimate boss the bureaucracy often acts like at a bowl of jello i think it was a common mistake or quarter of those of us who would suggest that the president may not be the old vault at least not the singular cross events share that responsibility with congress and congress has has really been in a difficult situation here congress can of course not force the president to appoint opportunities acceptable to congress altman late he has a party nomination here and congress cannot force him to remove people with a congress may have disagreements in the bureaucracy

in addition congress has a very serious problem because they are his appointees he can work with them directly and one does have to normally have a very serious obvious reason to refused to accept his nominees that require a congressional approval i normally the president gets his late in nominees to head the various agencies does he have a role a compatibility with these people assumed at least he doesn't appointing congress does not share that automatic compatibility initiation of their membership in the drugs again from the president not from congress so congress is not able to work too easily through the political head of the bureaucracy as a means of trying to constrain died are going to share it with the president the responsibility for controlling bureaucracy to move to many other kinds of our activities and this is were the shadow areas the twilight series american politics probably wish that more

can go into the night but in the last three to four years for example there has been the creation of a congressional veto provision or by congressional committees right into legislation provision that if a bureaucracy agency decides on a certain kind of standard to be held up in certain areas surveyed decided take certain action they will have to have the approval or at least the subject or disapproval of committees in congress it's a very i think that we are ratcheting up with a deal with it the god it's not clear even to date with is really a constitutional provision of legislation it's also not clear at what the ultimate impact of that is in terms of really constraining guiding the bureaucracy at the somerton man and it just like a book theoretically can whistle can control the agency's to some extent that amount of money would say it's appropriate for that particular agency abolishing <unk> we form of controlled ago that you know

if you're their program conducted all us effort to be conducted the way you want it conducted you obviously don't deny funds that nader had suggested at one point that and you know consumer agency is created which was with that where the bureaucracy that they can exist probably ten years and i remember just to start with saying in one of his books that what that any regulatory agency created by congress to deal with a particular problem whether it's created deal with transportation problems with problems whatever native made the suggestion that if the new consumer agency which he advocates is established that it should continue running for ten years and then be subject to new legislation which would extend its life and it was decided not to extend its life it were me to find justice and

whistles are made that suggestion one of his books that transcends all regulatory agencies after a while attending the end cap his faith groups that they regulate the day that notion have a lot of longer than ten years it's a further extension of the devices use already by congress the city the bureaucracy the notion of authorization where and in some cases an aging maybe authorized to conduct its programs forever what we call open opposition in some cases there are three and four year authorizations after which the ages to come back to its legislative committee and get further on have heard further hearings and essentially have the right to further function and we've seen recently a trend towards what we call an organization that would bring back to the hill every year now for renewal this program fourteen season me that what may be the boss and others have suggested is not only do we do we go two authorization of programs with the reauthorization of the entire agency through some time reviewing organic

act that i think we're probably not sit well with many of my favorite bureaucrats but it might have some merit nsa doesn't sit well as a serling of those concerned with congress because congress already is it's a chaotic institution overworked and underpaid and with very little time for the average member of congress today fully do the job adequately to think that on top of the current problem that they have the lack of staff and so forth they're going to have to face every year or every two years on agents is coming back for a new authorization of that agency for another year or two years it will simply overwhelmed congress they really cannot do this it would mean a very little innovative effort with a collector in congress in terms of solving problems and there'll be will it all be able to keep up with past agencies in reviewing and i don't personally think that any authorization either very good solutions that this point some years well you know i hope that you're five years don't fault every five years together because then you're

going to have a very serious problem that i think it does point where the problems in dealing with the bureaucracy looking russian perspective as well the president's perspective that is it so many of the techniques are mechanisms that we create that we devise to deal with the bureaucracy and constrain the bureaucracy ends up straddling us all into a situation that potentially is worse than the one that we're trying to deal with an interpretation but in this case country's overwhelmed with with trying to carry out an hour by offering patients that it would have a little opportunity to set the broad direction for a lot about the controls and checks on the bureaucracy of the prongs of presidential congressional or judicial control which can raise another issue to me and that is we seem to be always concerned about checking bureaucracy of their opposition to have a kind of a negative flavor in the public mind and factory to speech or the governor or the state legislature congressman a woman now you'll find that the bureaucracy is often a whipping boy a stalking horse there's nothing more evil universally open bureaucracy and yet

bureaucracy exists universally in all forms of both political systems aren't familiar with why is it that there are big has a negative connotation or flavor to the general public has complained that it and i think when you said bureaucracy has a negative connotation you have i think i'm one and the people who are being regulated by the bureaucracy whether it's the truckers who are the companies want to get new drug some reason although the small business people complaining and saying they can't do anything red tape red tape red tape on the other hand you have members of the public would say who are abducted by the high prices they may pay as a result of certain tracking regulations or who are concerned about the safety and efficacy of the drugs which they are taking on prescription from their daughters and they're saying in effect not why is they too much red tape but they are saying why did you make sure that your red tape is more effective so the complaints about the bureaucracy and i think you at the very least have to

separate the types of complaints and can probably another complaint which i think is very real is that the bureaucracy or leased many agencies and bureaucracy really do have a great deal of information about private individuals and a great deal of direct influence our life through taxation and through a variety of other kind of information that they have about us and influence that they have on us and so within with a giant agency like that that we do not directly elect her control in a purple sands there is a desire to make sure that it is at least responsive to the institution that the congress and president that we can attempt to influence by our vote so there is that kind of promise second problem is that the congress and the president together in their legislative role give to the bureaucracy a great deal of discretionary power in carrying out many programs and this power really in many cases gets a bureaucracy virtually an

open check in terms of what the corrupt bureaucrats can do with a very broad boundaries so there is a real desire to check up on the bureaucracy and to make sure that it's trying to meet the spirit of that law given the fact that the authority in iraq pursued very broad and very own specific don't have to be wrong in specific in some cases of wary because of the just the specificity a task is really not even known the congressman who are actually passing a piece of legislation to see the specifics in huge issue congress passes legislation like pure food and i get to nineteen thirty eight i could keep them you know struggle in nineteen sixty to basically looking towards safer and more effective controls on the specific day which is entrusted to the food and drug administration of making sure that the new drugs coming on the market are not going to cause terrible side effects and they can't really define the specifics of those tracks in a himalayan

the last downturn sign that the drugs have to be safe with a minimum son who decides what's safe and then when you actually look at the bureaucracy of the food and drug administration new state and perhaps two or three things you see that unless the president appoints a commissioner of food and drugs who is really committed carrying out the spirit of the law which was enacted it may not work to effectively secondly unless he's committed to backing up his personnel against say the regulatory groups that could counter pressure on him he's taking a very successful in carrying out the congressional policy and unless he has the mind then they resources to do independent testing and make money to increase its staff in his personnel is not going to be able to do the painted jet that kindness and trusted him and reliable talking about this is the involvement of bureaucracy an essential policymaking at a lower level we michael wilson legislation in some respects in we generally thought at least in the

popular mind that the legislature passes laws and bureaucracy of ministers judges not the case at all because both because of his discretion of iraq this is involve itself in the making the policy in its very execution not only that but they even have back channels that you might say that to the legislature during the process of no consideration in terms of formulating policy doesn't seem ironic that at the very time that that image in a mall and there's a and a resentment of what is regarded as the bureaucracy way perhaps need even more people were more responsibility to you is engineering problems but the number of personnel in the federal bureaucracy decreasing trade roll group of the population that it seems ironic to me that a time when we need it were really not getting what we would have some power to the evolution of we might say the bureaucratic thrust from the federal government to state and local

government over the last period fifteen years or so i asked a local government administrative agencies have grown much more rapidly than the federal agencies have asked a local pointed now is probably three or four times that of the federal bureaucracy are also giving to private corporation to private industry responsibility to carry out the laws and abroad bureaucratic guidance instead of creating a new we're not engaging it does work well i guess i have a bias that leave the motive of the private sector is profit and the public service and to the extent that a private contractor to make a profit off of operation he or she will continue to do so but i think that the notion of public service is not nearly so firmly ingrained in the activities of the private sector and after all if the government's anything yet so it's kind of an

entity that least defined to try to describe public service are public interest is now stopped right now you know one might assume that one right that americans are the citizens have generally is the right to correspond to another that rod that right should not be are limited only to those who can afford to correspond to another yet and we see are stamps are increasing the point thirteen cents today and twenty five cents a year from now or two years from now or that what we have often thought of basic right well not exist because we are giving out to a semi private corporation the responsibility to carry out the postal service and it wants to make a profit ms theresa nguyen i any that's a classic example of an agency that has had to be on because of lack of staffing on the very groups that regulates to make their own decisions that as much of the testing of new drugs is not done by the food and drug administration it's done body pharmaceutical companies you also have an interest in having any drugs to be safe i never put on the market and i think we're suffering the consequences of that just the

hero of a recent newspaper article song estrogen only and dust of the strong which the mothers took twenty years ago which the drug companies themselves had persuaded the fda has no there is no sir he recalled the inspectors who were grading of rain in some southern ports or not federal officials they were hired by the grain companies to make these kinds of sorts decision was made not to have actually public inspector their private inspectors in cheese as in real problem is really more a general pattern in talking about the bureaucracy actually when you talk about the bureaucracy and congress and so forth you're really talking about a specific bureaucratic agency a specific set of interest groups that are quite interested in that area because they have financial investors and so forth and on the nih committee are subcommittee of congress and what often happens is it that committee or a subcommittee is composed of people from the area the country interest of interest

groups have the basic financial interest and of interest groups of course have a relationship to the agency involved with what's called an iron triangle they're all waiting together in an interest in so that nobody in that triangle whether it be the congressional committee are subcommittee the interest group or the agency are really approaching the question objective way they all want to make that particular policy area there was a survey of their own bizarre to make the decision to the benefit of that such a comment at the press and i think made an omelet briefly mentioned the role of the press in surveillance over of the bureaucracy very done some work in this area where a part of the freedom of information act although what was interesting to me to talk to people in the press they generally have not used things like the freedom of information act as often as they might have to get information and the press in i think in getting it to be a check on the bureaucracy and sometimes i

have the horrible feeling sometimes that some of their best things have been almost accidental like watergate or again going back to drugs when the thalidomide scandals broke and was publicized by the press which i think they did an excellent job of publicizing that provided the impetus them for the passage of the a law that we now have controlling drug testing and had it not been for the press we might have had that law passed nevertheless again it was almost accidental that the story broke when it did and that one particular reporter was so the situation tracking down an x are you mean you didn't hit him i don't mean that i don't appreciate it i didn't understand true that we can in as much as operators are getting very difficult to find all of the possibilities of they're controlling the bureaucracies we may see in fact in my short period of time it's hard to delineate the areas of the bureaucracy that need control and obviously the price does need to keep a watch

on the bureaucracy and as one of the controls along with the congress as you stated along with lee administration misused in also along with public knowledge pretty obvious in that we've been discussing on to honor jesus weekly american bureaucracy our panelists included larry died assistant professor of government at the university of texas at austin richard shop assistant professor in the unrest as lyndon b johnson school of public affairs and dagmar hamilton also an assistant professor and lbj school of public affairs this as rex we're for two hundred years two hundred years as part of the united states bicentennial program at the university of texas austin is a continuing series of weekly conversations about the past present and future dynamics of history's longest living democratic society two hundred years this is