The Inquiring Mind; All In The Family: Children's Rights Clinic

from the center for telecommunication services the university of texas at austin this use inquiring mind produced by public station in association with a news and information service at ut austin these discussions examining ideas and activities of a major university community producer cathy cover what happens when a child abuse case goes to court who speaks with a child can you speak for himself what is the child want to do is you know what its options are with me as helen tackett at the ut new service and our guests are john samson the project director and cynthia bryant the supervising attorney for the children's rights clinic at the university of texas law school both gas are on the ut law school faculty mr sam sanders said children's rights clinic get started several years ago a federal district court made a decision and stating grab

him abuse neglect cases where the state was seeking to terminate prime writes the children had an independent right to have their own lawyer that case was ultimately moving down by the us supreme court and so is no longer effective case controlled texas legislature responded to that case determined that children should have a right to their own counsel and he turned the judge felt it was necessary and always when the state was seeking to terminate the parent's rights as a result of the estate called high i made a grant application to the un department of education seeking out some oil federal funding for a the clinic and called it the children's rights clinic under normal circumstances he would play a tune for a child's attorney obviously if a parent can afford his own attorney the child doesn't have that yes texas law states that if the parents can pay it's their

responsibility to pay for the attorney who was oh a point for child hour when the bill was first passed the statute stop their didn't say anything about who's to pay a of the year parents are indigent so from a nineteen seventy nine until this last june it was an open question as to who's to pay the result of that was that quite often the lure would be drafted and just appointed to represent a child it would be paid by milan and then varied from county to county in this state very dramatically some places there be a nominal amount paid other places the year there'll be nothing taken a lawyer would just serve pro bono which means for public service you there such a thing as a children's rights clinic in other states there are several organizations along the same model we're we're not unique in being the we are

one of a few law schools that have this kind of clinic but there are others and there are other states that have the same type of bomb mandated representation of children is a family on that other question since june of this year the year texas legislature made another change and they said that and attorney appointed to represent a child where mom when the state is on the other side is entitled to a reasonable fee how whatever that might mean and then there's another part of a law that tells you how to figure out that reasonable fee weiss wise a clinic like this in a million it says she's a law school why quo aileen leblanc from our perspective it says it gives this dune a very good opportunity to start into a laboratory setting as did review a business purpose last summer in

texas license to practice under the supervision of an eternity that's lasted fifteen years some are sick your students have to be at least halfway through your program in order to be eligible for them so the law students who are licensed to practice under massive provision can do just about anything that a lawyer can do as long as they're supervised so that they can now prepare legal playing songs i reviewed them and simon myself anger core ask questions as long as i'm with them and supervise work for the clay and you were in the courtroom when the case is being heard that scientists do nature today as to question general us to flourish well i'd like to give the students as much responsibility as they're willing and able to tax are like for the state it's a day most of the work in the korean asked the questions like the arguments to the court as the only requirement that takes the size of that super bass in the present while that's going on more responsibility that hand i

think the better their experience and the clinic in those dunes also have a course in children's right goals in the last two that's right and eighty year their work in the koran the children's rights clinic has its own classroom time there are other courses as well that they could take but they're not required to take children in the law for example as a cork as a separate course which we would encourage our students to take but they're not required to do so this does give the students a unique opportunity we think to him to to work as lawyers because first of all they get a wider range of cases and a wider range of individuals and then you can now ordinarily expect in cleveland clinic for example where almost all applied for all the clients are very poor and so you only see one segment of society with our cases are the children sometimes from very poor circumstances and sometimes from fairly well

to do circumstances so that dumb or not limited to a very narrow areas are either by air by subject matter or by class economic class which is helpful and perhaps so sort of semi and i don't mean to be cynical but the other thing that there is a very valuable in this setting is that their lawyers on both sides and so that is the lawyer for the child is a third lawyer introduced into the scene because there is an adversary system already set up that student can be we can give the still a lot more responsibility with the idea that even if they make an error the adversary system itself sensors and people coming from all different sides of the same case will correct any error that this dude makes you you're less likely to worry about the student causing great harm than to say we're in

a capital murder case us to defend somebody who is who is facing that kind of charity headed to attorneys in art would be in the state attorney then the parents attorney usually of giffords and abuse casey's dc what it did he take on well the downturn poses we do are representing children in cases involving their custody that's really a broad arrangements are only ten k suite is really broad range of cases probably around a quarter of our caseload are places in which it optional for the children to have an attorney and those are places where the parents are involved in some dispute private dispute not a dispute involving the static and it's optional for the children to have an attorney in those places are usually divorce cases or changes of custody after divorce and we do some cases involving joint custody between parents and other private cases where states now embarked

on the vast majority of our parasite are cases in which the state is involved usually that's our state department human resources the welfare department and they are attempting to our already have taken custody of children are all based on allegations of abuse or neglect by their parents so the vast majority of our cases are those cases and it's mandatory as you said earlier for children have separate attorneys from their parents and from the state in this case in the stake as is the other side's are the state and their attorneys an appearance and their attorneys in the children's attorney literally in the middle in some cases and then in the private cases when i mentioned first the other side to date each of the parents are perhaps a parent versus another relative in a product just because when you say abuse and neglect are they're upset legal definitions for what those terms mean sentience is the cars are general terms like abuse and

neglect are not used in texas' statutes bit more specific allegations have to be men concerning endangering the child are leaving a child with and situations which are endangering to get emotional or physical well being an abuser of a neglected and broad generic terms that are places include cases that amnesty would think of this abandonment of children cases where the parents simply just voluntarily give up their children as well as physical abuse and sexual abuse of children what age children to use condoms protection for all ages literally day ten we have had clients is older he's seventy a minute hand and zhang is i think we've had one about two weeks it

must have then most of our clients are around school age and probably most him and fall in elementary grades that we have had some very uncommon for the children run into court today they're sometimes they are and sometimes an hour law school student get to interact with the trial since he is actually functioning as his attorney that's right is it one rule we have even if the even if it's some merely for four we insist that the student i hate to say consult but at least see his climate the client is six months old obviously can consult at any great length much directions from a plan but we do want does this do to have actual personal contact with each with a huge client in court and some cases it's really critical to interviewed children who were able to talk to you and who are victims of some parents a dance critic really physical abuse or sexual abuse yet guaranteed to talk to the children about

the actual facts of the case are the events that happened do you find that's difficult for the last thing to the children of those that would be victim's i would think of physical abuse might find it hard to do to trust a stranger somebody else coming in and asking about money you know writer tanner lasted and is involved in the case place the legal processes rt begin to roll and their child's party saying at least welfare department social worker and perhaps other strangers and all too and the child's head being content with like medical personnel are caretakers at emergency homes things like that so often kingsley early on in the tax the last if it's just another stranger another authority figure that the child has to say said the relationship has to really build prices early on in the case we try not to talk about particularly

sensitive matters unless we absolutely hefty and let that relationship develop so that that conversation can't come out later on and we also rely on it other people to report as what the child is that we use we try to be sensitive to the chow situation as we possibly can that there are times when we have to talk about extremely sensitive matters with the tune long as no kate sheehy tate that's a really depend on the legal system men and that's going to vary for instance in texas has from county to county which usually i think urban areas court systems are more tied at the attacks on during our cases ways like for the cases to be overweight than one year after they began and that's we believe and i think michael arndt yeah that's actually pretty speedy for our legal system particularly if it's a contested carrots and particularly if there's a jury trial requested does because they're more time consuming just take longer time to

be re so there's one thing that the economy alone you roll lot of people at their hearings will know what and latin is a special foreign isn't it is as the court appointed turn an attorney and lime and light a means for the case your point for the case that's latin latin for four it would be a recently for the day but then it did they're developed and for the case to be contrasted with i'm an attorney for banker brown you have a continuing longstanding attorney client relationship with a banker brown in this particular case where a corner just for this particular case and that's your attorney relationship on the court the judges going back to its and he was talking about when that first became mcdonald's a fashionable one at least an idea that debt that had which

did come that the child should be independent he represented one of the reasons for that was just like the delay in prosecuting our processing cases and quite often that story the parents are not particularly interested in proceeding perhaps the state is busy or the bureaucracy gets tangled up or other cases push we're pushing with him away or something and so one of the things that the head of the attorney for the child should do is to make sure that these cases do come to resolution so we had for example and some of our earlier appointments run into casework person the child had been under temporary custody of the state for four years and that and that you know doesn't and there are other instances where that we didn't encounter where the kit complete will go from a fairly small child to a year an adult without ever

really going to court on the final hearing on the merits because temporary custody order just days more or less forever and that's one thing that the child attorney i have to make sure happens is that there is a decision sometime so that if the parents are going to be terminated there's a chance for an adoption and the parents aren't going to be terminated them all efforts should be directed to return the child or to at least put the child in some permits setting and as long as there's just is this never ending indecision which sometimes happens now is in limbo and so that's one of our functions as the cows lawyer is to make sure that we do get a settlement something there's the attorney and i get to make a recommendation to the court yes then no word that i have the kind of mercenaries who have something of a controversy on it yes the the attorney atlanta neither can or should

depending on your view of no one would deny that they attorney and let him can make a recommendation do the lawyers during the practice and do they take on some of these cases kristie had to do when we do now the vast majority of it has is for scanning but some other attorneys are appointed and in different counties do it different why scientists use an idea to three samples of a real patient if you heard that are you know not too unsettling to hear some are pretty unsettling sight tie a couple of me getting cancer places we've been we have our daimler slash year and place in which was a modification of custody a private place in which state was not involved and the child was elementary school aged child one child that neither had been given cassidy about five years ago and the father

i came to court in an sec leslie be changed to hannah father lived in another state and the murder in a child lived here in austin and so after a series of the usual pre trial matters we went to trial before the court without injury on the issue of changing cassidy and ultimately in the you guessed it was not changed in the course of that trial which was i think four days gone we heard evidence in from the parents obviously and from people like teachers and psychology is in psychiatrists different people who examine the child and had been in contact with the top so that's the sort of your run of the mill private care case where you have a dispute between parents and you need to be an investigating of preparing the case for trying it just being candid with people who know the top know the family can give you information about that that's that one side is alleging justifies changer testing and that is just a

background of the chao what's in her then you'll be revealing any help state secrets remain at one of the issues that the father was making that case was that the mother had lived as an unmarried cohabiting they think is the current term she had set live with another man without benefit of marriage for some extended period of time and then they had split up and sometime later she formed another relationship with and without second man again without their meringue and the census bureau reports that this is it is a common occurrence but the father taught by different view of it and that that was a big part of his case as to why christie should be change that would be a court appointed this case none of these suggestions a bit of either party that just on his own as that we become involved in it and about the court

never tell me our suspect it was because it was hotly contested and there were these parlor called immorality issues involved in her the musty cases we do as i said before our visit or abuse or neglect cases and a typical and i guess there's no such thing as a typical of these cats because they're all different and some of them involve oh serious physical abuse among them involve abuse that amounts to an extremely aggressive spanking and in some cases we've been a sexual abuse last year we had a law student who did try on before the court without injury for a week and then complicated case in which there's allegations of sexual abuse by the mother's boyfriend the mother's boyfriend was not the father of these children the parents had been divorced sometime before and that was the case it for the last in this

imagine a responsibility the case and did an excellent job and in that case had gone on there in the court system for about one year since the allegations came to the attention of the welfare department and during that time and preparing cancer trial week two depositions which are basically interviews of witnesses and where they testify as if they were in court that that's been pre trial and reporter text down their statement said that all parties can be prepared and what evidence can be trying to depositions had pre trial hearings on issues of support from one of the parents who if that was able to place a poor spend a lot of time talking to sex abuse therapists to the children had been involved in and i spend time talking to foster parent as well as the children in their cases it was a serious case in china could talk to us about the allegations to get to know the kids pretty well and in the

last inning connected mr the trial now question here lost interest on a disorder expire ain't nothing i would say over all of those distant who had have been not quite enthusiastic about their experience it has some drawbacks i suppose they the crucial drawbacks is that it at the crucial drawback is that exposes you were offered to us rather run run attractive element of the law coming into this the cases are calm sometimes very difficult to deal with especially since you have allegations of particularly gross come up by grownups directed against chechnyans children and a sometimes you can't i guess the war my i'm sure my job was a vote would be grossed out by

the particular facts in a particular case i mean it's it's an introduction to the practice of law medicine crapshoot its eighty year the seamy side of a day it really is we do the one advantage of course as we have to be the best of all possible clients and in this particular area maybe have the state is alright ideas but we haven't we have the one client that everyone says is that the main focus from world trying to decide quote the best interest of that of our clients so we do have that advantage otherwise the experience is very a very viable thing i guess had been john sampson and cynthia bryant of the ut austin law school speaking on the children's rights clinic i'm kathy clever putting quiring mind you've been listening to the inquiry line a series of programs about the

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