200 Years; Women in Leadership Positions

from communication center the university of texas at austin this is two hundred years in the year nineteen seventy six the american republic celebrates its two hundredth anniversary as a part of the us bicentennial program at the university of texas at austin two hundred years explores the past present and future dynamics of history's longest living democratic society this as rex we're for two hundred years this week we will be talking about women in positions of leadership with us martha williams professor of social work at the university of texas at austin dudley post an associate professor of sociology and research associate in the population research center at ut austin and elizabeth london professor and chairman of the university's department of management let's begin this discussion by identifying some of the barriers to women in attaining positions of leadership in america dr lamb there are a number of barriers that one

might lean as dr tried to select few a few of the more important ones for that might suggest a cultural conflict which specifies and arms form womanly or ladylike behavior and eu root shall we say our norms for business behavior and the two are not necessarily in agreement according to the cultural outlook about a barrier which i think it's one that we must be aware of is a lack of visibility that most women have in their organizations they are in jobs typically which are a fairly low level and if we can say of the out ok i've been watching her performance as we might say of a young man who had quite visible we're gonna ion hillman says panda gap i think also that the informal social into action that takes place is a part of the informal organizational structure serves as a barrier to women because they are not quite acceptable shall we say on the golf course and the foursome which may be where a decision is being made with respect

to some businessmen are or in the club room over a drink that they're not one of the boys yet and there's an exclusion from that sort of rapport if you will that holds them back i think that low bugaboo of all is resistance to change that that of course is something that is underlying perhaps all of these things that we just actually resist any major change of the sort that would bring about dr situation and finally i might suggest an islamist that down the criticism and is often directed toward women that if they try to assume some of the typical aspects of role of the leader of one are they are perhaps accused of being it is the bridge project a setback cooperate yes or no surprise nice mice and in order to free oneself op that sort of innate takes a great deal of doing and what your analysis not posed a dilemma to verify that number important items i think i'd like to stress the notion of

socialization boys and girls or as they as they grow up and as they learn the norms of the society learned everything is simply as a basis of section i says i'm quite sure that that weather changes and socialization patterns we may not see the the kinds of problems that you today but williams and pants and things and to live within your lives and i think one thing that seems to crop up in a lot of research is that sort of finding that women are assessed differently in terms of their competence for example women are definitely going to have to be particularly scale than in a particular test before they will be judged equal and that task too her male counterpart in other words he seems to be a necessity for the woman to prove herself much beyond what a

man has to prove himself fortune get a better job or a better assignment or whatever it happens to be i think another serious limitations for women is what might be called informal mentor system that a that is true in most organizations where and i you have to learn these levels for her skills and leadership at the higher levels of the administration that you do not never learn those to formal education in their known informally through social interaction with mentors and women its aims have much more difficult time being adopted if you will by a mentor who will teach her the informal rules the inside information kind of saying that you need you know to be a leader in an organization so i think those two years of keeping portland and then there's an interesting study which indicates that how women are judged to be administratively likely to fill a job if that job is defined as one not requiring initiative

challenge and being competitive man are are much more likely to be assigned tasks that one might spend for the season country for our that women do you know for some reason should not be asked to perform certain kinds of tasks like negotiate with the conflicting outside party or something like that it's sort of like we have to protect women from some of the more feeney says the organization plans that are required for leadership a census is a program dealing with our bicentennial year is less look backwards and see how much progress has been made and the role of women at the time of the revolution moon we did we find any when moneyball in positions of leadership in the united states i realize that not everyone is on that story on here but can you think of any of them outstanding figures in the revolutionary period leadership we might call

a woman there are certain then that one would bring back in history have had important fact quite often they were the wives of important figures one behind and isn't someone like that to me we might side joan of arc of course there are all ages and all of the wires to where the argument that name of course in our history that as far as one now being recognized leader as we think of men george washington for example and so on down the line i don't believe that really they're arguing in that category the nation of course look at another area and that is what are some of the mess that we have surrounding barriers that confront women i know you've listed the bus for a number of barriers that apparently aren't myths what are some of the signs that people generally believe

are true about women that are going mr ip well i think one can have met is that if you take on an important stressful role in an organization and then leadership position that somehow you will be a bad wife and mother and gets one can admit the research seems to indicate for example that working mothers have known detrimental effect on their children and in fact more educated professional urine mothers seem to be good mothers to happen they often are the ones who are working at interesting point because it's always been believed that the best children are those with a recent home by their mother's love is not working interestingly there's been very little research each on the whole question of which children are those children in terms of emotional stability televisions a psychological wellbeing morality and

center but she rather a reading this study published about three or four years ago it had to summarize all the literature on this question and indeed it's seems that that that there's no evidence one way or the other about the child abuse and in the day care center or the child raised at home isn't much better off and yet we've always believed in fact the research seems to indicate that it when the mother is doing what she wants to be an alliance which he staring at the best situation for the challenge so she likes work and he likes to write the profession then when the child is having an airway the child's palate picking up signals from them other whichever condition issued as alike achieve and i think the assumption that has been rather problem perhaps in the past anyway that all women want to be mothers and wives just simply doesn't hold a truly it is a man that many of the deeply unhappy if that were their primary role it may be a secondary role or what have you for them but then they like to

have a daughter after life in participation in life in just eight that some of you have seen recent version of the show mall in which she's fighting for a day to day she was to be a senator or state their complications but it's rather than treating it as she's reaching out after having been a wife and a mother or meters and in terms of organizations and leadership perhaps another myth is that many women are at least the meth has sort of been perpetuated that to be a woman who is also a leader you must be hard tough masculine and generally an appealing and i don't really think that there's a necessity i mean there's no research that i know of that says that those are absolute necessities for leadership you know his leadership has not contingent a bomb on masculinity and one of the rather interesting that the uses that women know do not

like to work for whitman and then do not want to work and are women and some recent research is proving that don't actually that may not be so that one feels that he must support that point of view i suppose because it's the popular myth to do so but that in reality studies it been made where over a period of time component control groups have been you know observe and in the time that some of the performance the your productivity at the your own lawyer had been measured and thirty womens groups in some cases to pass the man that true it's just a rather limited amount of research that that maybe i mean maybe exploded in time which i think will break down an important guy or perhaps somewhat related to an earlier mr watts introduces one that anyone really prefer to work parra on a part time basis and simply because they they want to work along with the important jobs said they haven't the household and they only will work on a full time basis of forced into that situation by the husband

making that unit in connecticut so i think his sleeves pressed into the concept that the women were going for him money and i think we all know economically that this is not so that studies show as the new figures from bureau of labor for example like what the women in the labor market are supporting at least some sounds totally a large percentage of them also were supporting themselves and others maybe aged parents or children and that tear they are not contain can just toward buying a better car are a lot better house but rather they are a very important aspect of economic position of the famine i think that perhaps that will be even more true as a result of our present economic situation it may have been although these figures have been with us a list proving that will at least for a couple decades or more money has to study in fact i think that there are probably six or seven million women heads of half over and courts typically women heads of households or in

economically more continuous situations perhaps want a quick years or poverty might be an equal pay for he called her well that brings up an interesting topic for expanded are often quite a bit but is anything being done to equalize the pay scale between men and women now we hear a lot about it believe for example are they doing anything to try to be certain that we get equal pay for equal work i might start this by saying that to our college of business administration at the university of texas here in austin made a survey of salaries paid men and women are offers or one's accepted in the last short while and that the average paid two women had exceeded the average paid to man graduating in the particular period of time studied and there is an interest and that is the first time in our history of records kept where this

has occurred so that perhaps we're moving in that direction more than we realize not to surpass but to bring back the clock and go in this case we did surpass great record and gluten instead it and if russia were graduates and fan that arm at that point of entry into the profession males and females were paid at the same the regional differences and sour and this was over twenty year period but the differences began to develop after a period of time and i think that this indicates parts play that promotion structure is where we may be seeing more differential pay them because of the differential pay may be and that women are simply not is quickly promoted are quite often women have to serve the organization many times longer to get promoted to position them a lie get after three years so i would think that the promotion structure something that most organizations will have to look at closely

i think an important item there that has been discussed by some as the fact that in the past at least partially to the nineteen sixties women frequently would begin work shortly after high school or college and our love with and marry and oftentimes women and withdraw themselves from the workforce for a number of years to have children that would re enter in and our experience of management at least this is what the congress that might have been important the spirits of management is that that the legal question of seniority as an equal comparison it said that in particular syria is referring to a candy that control for link working and so on and in that case what happened was that even given day and both were equal amount of time in yemen was not promoted using food the events of that of the nineteen sixties as it as a demographer and

i'm especially interested in the notion of a fertility control and the kinds of advanced mechanism sullivan introduced him along along with these advanced innovations in concept of technology of course goes along changes in the value structure than all the norms and whatever we enter family formation a number of children and at the same time are experiencing a fertility rate is currently below replacement levels i think all this so speaks well for for the future for all women not only in management and more unequal position telling reporters at getting particular i think that there were wailing you're trying to develop rights of minorities corporate of a lonely vigil all cause them to move into that for some late but nevertheless i think it is having some impact our business organizations are kept taking more seriously the need for aiken studies of jobs and filling them and paying equally according to zhao facts and i think that as more of that develops were going to have

greater equity within our organizations again resistance to change and all the barriers but it is coming it's slower than not perhaps we and our society would like but nevertheless it does take a while but i feel optimistic let's jump right quickly into this area of having children without about fertility control and so forth and what is the problem of pregnancy and work with a loan well course that's the point where many women did decide that they would like to stay home for world's leading and lemon dropping and over labor market although that's not true for many women who were unknown to stay and work particularly when you've gotten increasingly charlie if the organization has a good maternity passing those big difficult in many instances hand and that's one important way that organizations can help is to develop adequate maternity policies that settlement is not put in

jeopardy by that being pregnant i think it is the trend as we study of management houses all kinds of organizations we find increasingly that there is nothing really say another then and that isn't publicize perhaps he's the head of the office now can work almost real time to go in the hospital and her big bang for shortwave clinton it's desire and despair leave of absence for us and they played reg you're sick leave for it so i think that that is really the calm almost anywhere just a few years ago in the end the department officials wouldn't allow women and sheila nevins yes now require that they're at the end of the third month of say something along that line for was pushed and you know and i'm not necessarily just go on leave that resigned that i know of no organization that has such a positive maybe some

but i think that would be rather isolated instances but they're just in front of you but it's cruise was the requirement that the woman spent years leave of absent after the drivers and it's very up one year and think that that was a practice recently met i can imagine when being worried i of course another factor is it's a privacy is not so much the promise the challenger exploring is more roll conflict i think there has developed at that period and women are at least say they experienced the most role conflict to the point where their children are very young two years old and so i think it is a realistic that's right i wonder how much though that will continue to be important as we identify that it's probably not correct that the best children are those who are raised at home well i think there's there's two components of world conflict one of course is the metal pail to i

suppose but there's also just the physical test that have to be performed they have so many hours in the day and so many things to do and increases are handling the things that is important for us to recognize is as true none this growth of daycare centers all throughout the united states a certain state of texas were just overwhelmed with it you know and that jack in addition to we're gone part of government that assistant activity along that line that some business organization and grey it can be only the better off once again for this kind of program they are having internal daycare centers where working mothers can leave their children and be given care and go right on with the job not gonna hum renee there are about that is one of the benefits and some reason has provided and then i think it is also more acceptable culturally and socially and to have your child to daycare center then it would've been or you're a bad mother because you weren't don't stay home

with her i think that that is beginning to deliver a recent search was filmed in late may i would like to see a lot of organizations increase that train because there's certainly a lot of advantages to being able for think the transportation problems you know if you have to go one card pinned to the nursery school and then going to your business of the two could be in the same location that's a great help to them either you know i think also she can always check out her challenging know wants to certain problems developed he's right there so that we've dealt with for trial involving absence and the new music we have to be aware that can we identify any special characteristics of women who tend to see management rosa voters who advance in positions can we tell what kinds of families they come from to support that well for example women in politics typically come from families higher social plants

they typically have had in their families and role model could be a male role model who was in politics in fact many women and dance to political positions because of the death of their husbands so certainly being in the right kind of social alarm and you've certainly must have some effect alec think that would be true for women and that is very true and factor for a long time most of the women executives in the country where ones who had reached that figure positions results are being widows who moved in you see their husbands own majority stop daughters our founders who became our you know really owners of the newer direct since then under a corporate form structure and that death a court had them out of their family their father two brothers and present i was signed joan crawford who is an outstanding executive einstein and pepsico which he inherited her husband stuck in our position and so it was a natural lovely for her to go so yes i think that there is soul and into

having to lawyers for example women lawyers and might be used as a straight year and often that influenced you pursue that particular fashion missouri's auto loans and family doctors to women doctors are much more likely to have fathers who were doctors now so it suggests that yeah there may need to be a particularly supportive environment for women to move them i know how much out the differences in either eases the to a man being influenced my knees saying as a sailor again are two three years perhaps our panelists have included martha williams professor of social work at the university of texas at austin early post an associate professor of sociology and research associate in the population research center at ut austin and elizabeth london

professor and chairman of the university's department of management this as rex we're for two hundred years two hundred years as part of the united states bicentennial program at the university of texas austin is a continuing series of weekly conversations about the past present and future dynamics of history's longest living democratic society two hundred years is produced by katie by communication center in association with the news and information serve is this is a unique no