A Word on Words; 2717; Judge Constance Motley

building a new world and so you know once again welcome to world words and walk among the cars and baker motley it's great editor talk about the equal justice under law oh thank you for inviting me and i think that down your is judge motley your honor there has been a distinguished career and your life has been filled with love regime and so i know that looking back on it and reading about it vital part of so much of what has evolved under any of the fifties and sixties and seventies and eighties nineties you were chief judge of the second circuit you were only nine states district

court of the united states district court that's right and you were before that a lawyer who practice with up with great effectiveness and made cases that made initial impact on the fabric of our society and looking back on it it seems to me do that you get into it at a time when it was very very difficult to find a woman in a meaningful role in practice will then you came to it at a time when it was virtually unheard of have a black woman in a meaningful practice of war when and how did you really decide that this was what you wanted to do well as skills blacks who when i was in high school and where we helped nineteen thirty eight i was a junior

high school in new haven connecticut and at that time the supreme court rendered its first decision i guess in this century affecting the rights of black americans and that was one that rented a decision in a case involving the university of missouri law still those a young man who wanted to go to law school at the university of missouri and at that time all of the southern states have a policy of sending their black applicants to graduate and professional school outside the state and they would give them a scholarship which amounted to the difference between what it would have cost the student goes school at home and what it would cost them to go to school outside the state now the plight of their case as they were flowing again and he won the girl law school and

he was represented by charles houston get them at that time was a leading animal a sleepy lawyer and the trolls houston ideal of course that the state is violating the rights of law against bae requiring that he get his law degree outside the state of missouri he also argued that segregation was unconstitutional per se but the supreme court ignored that arguing on the second try and actually rolled let missouri add to afford gains in education within the board as the state now unfortunately at that time the games disappeared he never actually entered our butt when that decision was rendered and i was in high school it was like the brown case well all the major newspapers in the country sheriff carried the story

and early in my hometown of connecticut we had a leading black lawyer do it crawford and the community a lead is asked him to speak at a meeting of the black community at the pixel community house and explain the importance of this decision twelve cause crawford emphasize the limited nature of those decisions and that it really had very little impact on the whole policy of racial segregation now this was really a setback and science because in nineteen thirty six when thurgood marshall graduated from howard law school he and some of his friends brought a suit on behalf of dial mari who i think had gone to law to college with argo and lincoln university and thurgood was a native of baltimore maryland and he couldn't go to law school here sell one of the he graduated right

after he brought a suit with don omar is the plaintiff and he argued that amari was entitled to go the state's law school and much to his surprise the ticket the maryland court agreed with him and don omar he was admitted to a marshall had a breakthrough that early in his career an iran that is eroded not all that well that they got him are the position was selling houston had here as a chadian alleyway and values and decided to like to wash it back this fall of his father whom the lawyer and the third and became the chief council at the legal defense fund and he had many cases prior to brown there were a series of cases which he brought about nineteen eighty nine nineteen forty evolving legalization of like teacher salaries he only took a case in iowa state supreme court involving the texas white

primer he also have a case now let's see involving interstate transportation segregation that irene morgan case that was argued by william hastie who was the asset just a ritualistic circuit now of the third circuit he became the chief justice did it yes and in philadelphia he and marshall and target that took that case is brain court and the supreme court ruled that virginia's law requiring syria shown at and trout transportation now applied in terror uk stays transportation so let's use like an earlier rosa parks kind of the measure and now let's say one of the cases he had prior to the nineteen fifty four well of course the main one was the sweat case

in nineteen forty six the year i graduated from columbia law school we had double a cpa in its leadership decided that now at world war two was over with they would continue with the program the segregated education market they started before the war with the cases i mentioned a day in a war they set them aside and focused on discrimination the armed forces and we have a lot of cases involving black servicemen who had been court martialed but then when the war was over the decision was made by the leadership of e n double a sleepy to make a frontal assault on segregation per se prior to that they brought suit slight leak case in maryland and those sort of the legal theory that is the state had not set up a separate law school full of blocks and so blacks weren't tile technician

and they had brought along that path until as i said nineteen forty six and the decision was made that even in those cases where the state had not set up a separate facility they would argue segregation itself as a violation of the fourteenth and they argue that forest in a slight case involving numerous in texas that raises an input nineteen fifty was that the case in which they had this illegitimate about somebody who will the court's ruling as you can go but they must be a petition should know as they owned by warren to the supreme court just before the earth is in a slight cases triple fallen forty six would have to have four years where to get the supreme court as it was file a state court but in the meantime at the sweat was filed two cases were filed

in oklahoma one involving a black woman in a lawless city well wonder the law school university of oklahoma and then michael marr who wanted to build a graduate school of education well leia supreme court heard the arguments and the sexual case in nineteen forty eight i guess the last day or so and jen were the second semester was really begin like february second cell when today's they handed down a decision saying that oklahoma had to provide equal protection within its borders citing leone war against gays well they did admit her and so we went back to the supreme court and he was asked about iran i knew attacking segregation per se are you just trying to get equal protection for this apply to and we knew that he might be asked that and those worse was the staff

and war and buys in him in this case agree that he should answer now he was not attacking segregation her side and that was because the sweat case was coming up and in the sweat case we had the first opportunity it showed that the state's facility for blacks which it hastily set up a sweat in that case was in no way comparable to law school long established their reputation lost a layover sued texas and we did that with expert testimony i remember dr dean of harvard law school at the time for his wall down he was a witness yes al we head down with sherrill from the association of american law schools setting standards for law school and was a first case that was we were able to demonstrate at the separate school set up for blacks was unequal and would be in all situations with yourself you work for yet nineteen fifty four

rotors well what happened to that led the way was that the supreme court for the first time issued its all in order to texas to admit sweat and that was because of what happened in oklahoma only read the decision was seem to make it impossible for the state to do anything but made a political instability around the cell they issue their own water and that laid the groundwork for the brown decision i'll be there it was such a giant and knows that that the couple books of come out the last views about in the book is a brand he then new book out just now off the presses juan williams and williams is not a wonderful job with it you write about him and you know so well and

we're going to close to talk about the talk about thurgood marshall the man you write about in this book well i'll tell you know when i first met her before show i was a senior at columbia law school and one of those slots dunes there was herman hello i think he's originally from virginia or north carolina and he had been a columbia law school years ahead of me and he was graduating and forty five and wiley is a columbia law school in may the law review and contrary to the law school's policy he had a number of jobs because he is an older student you have a wife and three children and he had that support them and pay is jewish and so he had three jobs while gun laws go anywhere it's supposed to work if you have lost columbia law school but anyway one of three giles was as a clerk in the legal defense fund office headed by thurgood marshall

and he said to me a day don't you want this job that i have but the legal offense phone has a long career and i said oh sure so i went down to sixty nine fifth avenue and the animal a cpa legal affairs one were housed at that time a rickety old billy and i want to be interviewed by thurgood marshall and of course i had expected to say someone you know three buttons sewed them in the first term a stiff collar like the professors at columbia law school and when i got to this place there was this man in a room with his stereo no jacket his feet up on the desk and silly but i can save me come on and darrell issa and so that was the way he was he was the most in full person ever wanna meet except when he got

out before the united states supreme court or any court for that matter are you and there he was many times i went with him to the supreme court and he wore his cutaway coat evolves striped pants and appeared as a lawyer is in those days appeared before the united states supreme court but once the cooler well he was back to thurgood marshall and that was really informal miami that year that your career out you know or that they're good in italy then you have those jack <unk> and constance baker motley asked jack ray received the marshall isn't safe council i was an associate counsel a wonderful photographs in this book one when

you linda when you inject them i guess on the steps of the of the supreme court agreeing chorus and all the league entrances supreme court as you know other words equal justice and the law that's where mike and being on the front cover of that book there is of course a picture of you in jail for three years talk about that if you would done this was so this woman all live all the desegregation that had taken place before and nothing was quite like mississippi ever that's right and the senator great courage for him to do it as a lark a question at the courage as well looking back now i realize of course that is an the thing about the universe in mississippi case was that in

that case we brought down massive resistance led by the south to the supreme court's decision in the brown case now the south announced all the state legislatures in the south and acted laws say no they would not to enforce that decision and so forth and we knew that there would be resistance we weren't that nutty we knew there would be resistance but certainly we could not in nineteen fifty four fifty five foresee the resistance a law which would come it became first in florida where the supreme court of florida three times refused to follow the supreme court's decision came in alabama were the university board refused to take off three lucy and jerry activists a riot on the campus op ed came in arkansas governor faubus i

refuse to let nine black students attend the high school and though and then we came to the university of mississippi and once they supreme court and finely iowa roll on the last remaining issue in that case that is whether judge cameron remember that court from mississippi could set aside the ruling of the three members of that court that is meredith was entitled to admission once they got their last round we were ready for the admission james meredith the governor of mississippi announced that every state official should resist and he directed the a members of the board of trustees of the universe in the subpoena turn over to him they're polish admit james meredith and then have close to learn we need justice

department tried to get him admit it now with a few us marshals and jon dore who isn't member of my soul rise and yes they try to get in there and of course they couldn't so the government was brought in on contempt yes ross miner and down he was still actually held in contempt by the fifth circuit but he's given has a law required time to purge in self contempt or go to jail or the fine he was fined i think ten thousand barrels and sell he hasn't found shocking vote yes and the prospect of going to jail was still there even though that would've been a simple line content find that there was a criminal contempt a still waiting for him so he finally of course those stepped aside

and let's say jon dore and the united states marshals going after a cat president kennedy sent sixteen thousand federal troops from around the country outside the students that they still a secure isn't mission you know your career also includes some un political adventures which were successful you and served with distinction as a legislator and as president of that of the bar of manhattan borough manhattan lovely funny anecdote you tell about you and john rockefeller one eyed waiter came by new spoke to allow shocked he was a nose but you know wade keller says lobello rockefeller brothers i guess as john d rockefeller fair and he had invited me and

my husband to a concert at lincoln center and have dinner with him and his wife before hand and the waiter at the dinner will recognize new table ball girls he was a young man that i grew up with in new haven and we lived on the same street and he was surprised the same analysts i was surprised to see him and i introduced him to now mr rockefeller and his wife and so forth and used to rockefeller center oh how interesting you know somebody who is a way and alito then it isn't i don't believe there's any buyer at fox not that far removed from reality and then they came for your appointment to the court of president johnson you tell about visiting a lonely office and how recall robert kennedy of

the senate in new york who was not as friendly a lot of tension between them but then beyond the ones the president made in his mind there was early on with james eastland from this that it was the city who show intent is your committee he was drowned this is seventy one ceo of your life there was no i wasn't yeah maybe by this law allow i think the southeastern who at that time was chairman judiciary committee he was holding up and they bought a point in the sprinklers not just likes to act and the civil rights movement and not yet integrated the ads right well i had a friend james watson is followers won the first black judges in new york city he was appointed by johnson to the customs good at that time he was never involved actively in the house a lawyer the civil

rights will ease some help him up but he held me up because i guess he had heard about made i'm sure yet and so the story goes that he would let my name out of committee when i went to watch him to be interviewed to see a committee didn't even appear our by the woodland my name out and stereos that johnson sent word to him that he was in the lead out any other or send over a name other names for promos federal judges and really let my name out well of course he did that because the other senators from other states illinois they wanted their candidates confirmed for the federal courts and sell a cook the necessary pressure on the swan which finally got out the nomination after nine months he held up thurgood marshall so long that president kennedy had to give marshall his first appointment to the second

circuit oh what we call an interim point because congress in recess as easily win let him through and down when the congress reconvened they finally let him through and did nothing about it chino out when he went to be solicitor general united states i will remember when the hell out of but sen leahy i'll allow held it up again a fateful while winfrey was nominated to the supreme court but in any advance around he was one of those who this would let any black firm really become federal judges that at all you know they left us and only dj is you know using so much of history when you don't so much a part of history why did you wait so long to write your

autobiography while i've been a a federal judge is now for thirty three years and the southern district of new york we call the united states district court for the southern district of new york is the largest federal trial court in the country when i joined at our full complement was twenty four judges that smell twenty eight shortly after i joined it went from twenty four twenty seven and down we have let a tremendous caseload when i joined there were ten thousand civil cases pending and i guess about fifteen hundred criminal cases and on the day i joined that corporate i have a minute to do anything to support and down i became the chief judges in the nineteen eighty two and then even more work i carried a full load and carry the responsibilities of the chief judge

and down and they said i was just so tremendously busy i now have three thousand reported opinions now in writing my book i don't discuss those opinions because i follow the subject matter was so varied we do everything from adult in contracts to patton's criminal cases no tax evasion is a big yes there were they would have been another korean pages of this demand is just couldn't fit it and now my career and the civil rights will win as a monster