A Word on Words; 2224; Terrence Deal, William Jenkins

in a word and words of program and delving into the world of books and their authors this week paris deal and william jenkins talk about managing the hidden organization your host for or downwards mr john sick intolerant chairman of the freedom forum's first amendment center at vanderbilt university and the london simple welcome once again your own words seeming to distinguish gas or oil and water that's the way they describe themselves an early end this book managing an organization welcome karen c dealing with imaging and sort of words here straight have heard two academics from vanderbilt university of places you know all my in my eye and my latvia's to have you hear on the program to talk about this book that's been published by warner managing vietnamization has what's called and i i find it a fascinating book and i think that that as we talk about it really is a fun of the same book to

first of all list although a war management the field for you the classroom for the other bill jenkins manages to debate in dog university of eleven thousand employees and and so you understand organization you understand the structure and yon stanton management top down the mustard here you have a child you're a un you're in the classroom i am a teacher was it that much difficulty to have come together or that that's where we'd last about two weeks and so we've disappointed or people that regard is where word of different personalities we get different functions and usually universities no cooperation all the ministers in people wear

fat remember so it was a special labor what would become good friends and i think what really brought us together was the column believe sincerely that every employee to make a substantial difference and very few people really have that belief when you come down to it and we met i guess was so about the first week we were here i ask and he just written the book corporate culture site and i was ready to start a new adventure under joe why and i was managing the hidden organization and we didn't call it that at that time we start sharing ideas and done seven years later we started writing this book well joe like the chancellor of the university of unknowns probable fact the numbers of published we talk about that but i am but i'm my guess is that that cause cervical you're talking about the hidden organization that is people who were behind scenes to make every older aged innovation the fall my guess

is that the that it's a work that not only wrist he can put to good use i would have to say i wish it had twenty years ago when hours publisher and editor of the newspaper and later as chairman i just i just wonder why it's taken this long for two fellows like you to lead is to the realization that that core hardworking dedicated dublin thousand dummies called bureaucrat corporate bureaucrats garlic on terra foundation bureaucrats invisible you will use the metaphor of the people at the top of the iceberg beneath the water level is whether really whether that's where the real foundation is ms fortier is it's pretty ordinary observation but how did you come to the

heart of the academic world finally come to conclusion that the just plain common sense make sense why they obviously comes as orderly as their rediscovery of the principles of good people always done they take the take the olympics for example or is the focus was on two people basically and i go there are fifteen hundred other athletes there who covered over the line live but behind all most people there were fifty thousand other people whose efforts had to be there to make that make that work on those are the people that use it i get lost in the lost and the dust is what we're trying to turn the spotlight to focus on those people who really do make a difference even though those differences aren't always obvious to the people who are the recipients of the services are problems well you have some three basic recommendations that i found fascinating again it's a commonsense just ordinary horses bought one thing that should've occur to corporate mergers long ago is that there needs to be someone

who's championing the saloon car so to speak and that's really sort of a primary suggestion of yours that there be somebody in there who really identifies with the rank and fall where we call the backstage champion a person that really shows it indicates that their interest in those people and they're able to convey second table and tell about there when things we failed was about seventy five percent of any organization is behind the saints and i think that is a significant point font because if you think about that in terms of bottled water and improving productivity that makes a huge kind of gift it's a new drawl and all the values that that's a metaphor to those who earn from a curtain and those are behind the curtain and a few stars were out front think about what they really couldn't be there and the money wouldn't come a cash box at the front door is there were not

whatever number it takes many times the number bouncing during this scott where that we read a lot fewer stoppages that we use the metaphor of a fear there's one called i remember this is the solo fears backstage and i think that's true of a lot of organizations for example american airlines theatre to hire employees for reflection you start to think about all those people whose work has to be done well for the flight or the star gets that was too odd to succeed and started going back i'm there at every position that at least the week we come to contact has a huge leisure people blacks asians were cast has to go on even though it may not be all it's reckon i suppose the thing that really gives you were the book literally his first really big case studies i mean you personally went to work and interviewed and look at corporate entities where the action was then

you head some a secondary level of cotton is wish you and more than a glance buck not the sole or primary researcher he relied on the work of others and publications to get you to the point where you felt confident really make these conclusions and i and i understand of course that you ran into some negative apple says well as the faster ones about talk a little bit about the background in the twain opera company that does the right thing in terms of reaching down and i'm getting recognition to the invisible empire and those people backstage and and the company that simply fails to realize the worth of that bellybutton they used to compress examples one that i remember was an aunt was a hospital the person behind the scene who was doing technical tests and what she was writing too odd to us about this how she stays

in the test when she said it because you think it throws the white collar criminals upstairs awful time so she's actively sabotage in the working people because no one cares how it cares a viral and then contrast or without schappert from mom from our plan who has won the backstage champions we walked in the interview her and she looked as very fiercely and promises i make my living under i think you know that like i give you an example of the strange and it will be in the trenches behind the scenes of the words that come out of people's mouths like i make my living from there are much lower than the words we could've created but there are there's a real difference in the backstage of the good companies will pay attention to the league in a fashion that showed commitment they're engaged where big companies it doesn't happen that control they basically check their brains at the door every

morning and do the work it's a job that's the difference you also recommend pretty obvious but how the most people know what does that mean when you get below walla la who are the best people believe think of managers as those who do focus on the cream risen to the top those great deal green that highsmith up as not the uptick in and indeed i guess some green perfectly satisfied with the roles as long as i make a combination of recognize but talk about hiring the best people and we'll wait on the harness were talking about every position by and let me give you one example one company they require hard work for every single employee that started reference checks they've interviewed to their values match and one manager agenda and the ceo that their scissors cut in a senate backed it said you'd been notably the process and so that is a

kind of commitment that we're there are the best person for every position rather than just filling the position end that if you don't view that the turnover rate is really costs there are different estimates that essentially for forty thousand dollars or the cost eighty thousand dollars when you lose than six months if for an hourly employee it's double the b a concert they're sour so hiring the best person may take more time but it works and how you how you know at that level how do you know who's got the best and not the best mean i'm having made some wonderful i was in my life and having the thing something that works disasters is if you intend to resign but if a few mistakes can be very damaging and they can take up to six months or year of your of your company his energy and an effort if you if your

contract with someone who's really not just bad but it's a struggle and the process that i think they are the people who are doing the job are often the people who know the best one and i think that the we is we look at who's involved in the hiring la times is the behind the scenes people themselves who are actively engaged in selecting for the fruit for the best people having people dress as la times have been crap detectors that the people in the top of the organization may not have a bit at that level and so those people now and if they're involved in the hiring it really increases your ability to for example disney they have peer review may have the backstage hiring back stage people they actually go through training learning how to interview these people so disney is saying it's that important to us how do you feel about the practice of some corporations to do a whole range of testing include psychological test does

it work was it not work it was not was and make sense for some college not for others i think testing is appropriate in some places but i think there's a lot of other things that you can do that maybe better than test reference checks what you find is a lot of these are low level employees don't do that the pier interviews we've we've heard talked about us another example another example is trying to see him die news of the employer prospective employee match that with the southern number a wise and as you say you can't always are the bench or not to be right a hundred percent a moderate view would be is if you take that extra hour extra hour heck to do the reference checks to get people involved that indeed your chances are in the best increase exponentially i sometimes the testing to be a substitute for judgment so that knowledge and a lot times what will happen to the gulag if these numbers rather than to rely upon that i die

of flesh to flesh out of contact i think it allows people in a jesuit but not just leave the skills of the person but also the values in and who they are whether other benefit of the company you know i've served on a few boards and you know you always recognize we're on board that your policies are learning to the execution there have been times when it bothered me that policy was set he was executed those executed management down and you'll talk about linking up the backstage with what goes on from a curtain so that there is there is policy understanding as well as politics fusion at every level i guess it has to come from the top down but it has to go down as though all way down it's about how you do that you get that

as a really good question and what we fail news companies have different ways to do it we called linking core mission of backstage which is what you call call policy i object strongly given the tax rates and whether that is counterstrike and so what happened was that the available fuel loosens code ang lee and so when things they make the wings to go on plans and so that the people who work there have barely they see the ways that they never see the plaza whistles windsor castle they brought in the b one that brought in the scene see one theory the rock plays i had a huge celebration at textron that reminded people that were making waves but those ways more unpleasant people flying an independent so on says they were people lose a victim of a mission statement but emissions that was often hangs on a wall and not in the hands of the hearts of the of the people and so it's just examples like that i think reminded people that the work that they do has as real value added that it connects out there to a customer or someone legally use the product or service and they have to be understanding one of the great

stories without was opulent population in seconds when often they wrote this mission statement they came back and they gave it to the sectors in one offer of congratulating her dinner for themselves and secretaries stolen the next day a they said you know this looks like it's written by both graduate students that most companies sell those that person cry would've been fired but opera way and they basically said well why don't you read it and so that the secretary's backstage employees got together wrote the mission statement and alex readable understandable kind of course what we're really talking about him almost every instance is your product or service and while youre admonitions to the corporate managers both command service to the customer and command

and so i slowed i have a commanding command customs and the big hype but but it's while mid thirties more likely saved and that the more nothing more yeah i think that it also so in that the people in the trenches the people behind the scenes and great ideas about how to work and you're the servers can improve one examples that we use is a famous of fifty seven thousand dollars american airlines nowhere that the flight tones realize that the bureau accused come back on the plane now because al assad unchained search ended at night or or that if you're going to a laboratory an american airlines right now there's a soap dispenser now as soap dispensers there because some of his career have laboratories suddenly realize you know people in these one bar soap a throwaway number people use in the lab times number flies time that were most times and every year there's a lot of money there so it's it's it's korea are involving people actually thinking about how to improve that service i think things would be yet the big hits you know you can't go somewhere down on the list of things

desk plates pagers name badges symbols of identity through a faceless core of workers and it's brought me into land and a couple examples of that sounds almost review the recommended on the other hand is only trivial if you're at the top of its rollout and you're recognized everywhere you write history of everyone to know your name of your skull but iraq remains a big difference to employers one company employee was given a beep and the first time the bp well the employee was so excited instead of going the phone and calling the rail a half mile to do the work and to get to

the points and that just is an indication the employee also then when you give them the name clive a name tag a deeper its a new report this organization we don't do that yes i was on a local radio show and again his interviewers saying oh my god this is kind of travail nice of what you're looking at the stats that age you know you're getting applause and feedback and you have a great car office you've got all the signs and so do they may sound of the bridge to the person doesn't have that they could take on romeo i think there are times where people can trivialize and that they can do without a lot of integrity or the heart behind it but i think they're trying to figure out what things matter to people in a trauma response has been solved the song that i remember i was talking to publisher colleague of mine some years back and he had been idea box and a lot of billing asking around and says we're study of the head i have nothing but complaints snide remarks during notes insults

like a friday once a while but when you talk about broadening the idea they say oh you said and here is the problem he reveals well you do how do you do that a lot for all that it is is another going with the eye get with patience and persistence and so you know that the iran meant that that if he's given quarter of his suggestions for how he can stuff into the dogs will then basically have a lot people who are turned off and so i think the idea there would be patience persistence of it if that person didn't find one that idea in that box of other things

and respond to it they maybe he may he may be able to fix it right there on the big yet because there's some muscle my god there's all that fall the film idea says this is absolutely a clean credible so there could be opportunities in that one that idea came along if the person is really kind of trying to make this happen to sell example one thing for her recently and have observed over the last decade is that as we've moved from all computerized side and those technologies change drank libyans have suffered on your members of the complications here in iowa but problem once that happens in a corporate mergers raise a wonderful and most of them the body if there is not a foundation of trust that's created is this an open invitation to have

on us is pressing out cards in your place so you talk about about the necessity for trust and for trust down and an unequal feedback to build trust how corny is that when trust is really critical i think ross is a two way street as warren does the manager trust the employee and that's the whole empowerment issue that we talked about throughout the book and then the other angle course is does the employee cross the manager and ed don't have that trust what happens an organization gets frozen and people are afraid to do anything and say you're going to have less productivity didn't have the kind of relationship that is going to be made between the manager and the voiceover i think trust is vital to any human relationship including the working relationship with you know how it is out there on the assembly line and is all sorts of

similar article and then as politics of the loan between i am alive and first manager and then they're people coming around the first mountain to get the second level it's a real mail and assembly lines are not be unfair to symbolize every workplace is the same on the office who was very much this i mean in latin major impediment to building trust why think that if they would sound for example without any of the assembly line but the way that that organization works is is far friendlier farm far fewer just fizzle people are committed to doing a good job a different outcome a different kind of car selling this albion the great example people who have the really work to make sure that that doesn't and saturn one of things that they'd use in their training is every employee goes through conflict resolution and it's interesting you said there's always appalled so

they're dealing with it at all you have something like a hundred profiles of companies as the pants that as an appendix to the book which i found fascinating really going through there and looked for natives in their fuel new theorem they are and i think that it's it's a crucial to understanding the work that you're about to appreciate just how many companies you profile we mentioned sat and i'm interested in that a new focused on the saturn project with special and let's talk a little bit about the well aaron davis to talk about the first time that we went to saturn we were dressed about like this i answer we are walking in and people realized hey how's the weather in detroit and i was i was sighs say that doesn't know what in the devil or what we realize that you have a suit on that nation from you're from detroit

and that's that's an example of a whole world soaked in the very beginning when you walk into that place you realize you're in you're a different kind of a different private company and you walk in they say in sweden who has the who has an officer with a prison being and so you begin to see the saturn just to get the us to run completely opposite the world of a lot of these dealings this and they are saying about saturn as we had planned originally to profile them is one more good comfort as you know we dedicate an entire chapter to it because what we've failed was almost every one of our principles they were doing or they might behead up and that is one the case even at the other big companies and so that's why we wrote a chapter about so that is the unique labor contract that existence saturn a positive or negative for sort of a mixed bag i think it's a positive because it is more flexibility to the workers and empowers it's i think their labor contracts like thirty seven pages gm

says three hundred and ninety eight and if you look at it it's got a very flexible phrases and based on trust so for example one of the one of the assembly line operations they thought if they move the parts closer they could really cut out two jobs and that decision was made by the group or was yes it was a group decision that we keep we keep cutting jobs then they made a decision about who would be cut and then that was a job that the upper management the fireplace so literally invisible cast of thousands that makes the decisions that affect the workplace lawyer says officers from the top down there was a store there an engineer who went and told someone to use these parcel they thought were affective and an episode feel frayed at and if you want to know that you can do that but i'm not i'm not going to do that when when stempel love is a plant there was a point on that was in a way a rally and people were protesting but they were protesting we want make sure we've

had higher quality than we did before last it uses hours and things like that people are focusing on with sarah's be able to do is to turn out so that's really if you think about in poland protest and you think about protesting salary increase and working conditions yet they are protesting wall as cj yellen sat with will give to put on ground only about forty miles away from nissan from a nissan plant which was a very progressive plan by american standards not very novel approach to work really my aunt relationship it was all the bases unable even playing field how even as a between them which are feeling about that we just i mean if you take a look at nissan nissan the wood wood wood example one of the practice also so i think that that if you take a look at the the yeah the way that they're dealing with a hidden cast theirs was some worries but when they have between the table and a duel but differently amen and i think that the quality of the caritas is reasonably

agrees with comparable will bolster our very enlightened managed those companies would use a morale is there with both i'm denise on wait wait but there when i was there they were they were very cruel terrence veal and william jenkins authors of managing the organization and then our guests on a word on where is your host is then john sigg involve chairman of the freedom forum's first amendment center at vanderbilt university this program was produced in the studios of wbez here in nashville