A Word on Words; 2402; Lawrence Otis Graham

for now and we're programmed delving into the world of books and their other news this week lawrence korb is ryan talks about the member of the bureau's four or downwards mr jon seaton fallen chairman of the freedom forum's first amendment center at vanderbilt university i want an unstable once again welcome to world words i guess large sodas graham welcome nice to have earphones invited talk about this book in which almost everybody who's come across you a real life is included in one way or another and sometimes they get burned off and they have burned arm but it does occur to me that it's a book so i have the right then before i go to foreign leaders tell viewers call a member of the club it says it's about really of essays

twelve separate an indelible real life experiences as you yourself confront sometimes subtle and sometimes overt racism in society at large and in individual institutions now the fascinating about the book before all a klan members turn off the television set a fascinating about the book is that in some ways it is as tough on african americans as it is long and there are secrets in this book i didn't know that have to do with the black culture but before we get to that let's get to the country club you underground princeton graduate harvard law school

and went underground why what happened was that i had been practicing corporate law for around two and half three years on wall street in new york city and i had noticed while looking around me that my co workers my black co workers and black friends who worked in my own law firm other firms investment banks and accounting firms none of us had clients than of his head business connections we had no contacts which were important to help us move ahead on our farms but then our white peers and white friends who'd gone to school with us are grown up with us did have these connections so we started ask your white friends and peers where you making all these contacts her you bring clients into these firms when you're only the same age just twenty nine thirty years old and they said all they're making another country clubs so we then asked them or how are you getting into the country clubs and they say well our bosses are bringing us the problem was was that their bosses were my bosses to so i discovered then that these bosses have a weekend relationship with these co workers that i assumed was just a

monday through friday nine to five relationship when in fact they were bringing people to clubs to do introduce them to do to make sure that they have relationships with clients and future potential clients so i decided to do was to leave my law firm for two months ago in the gaps as and create a fictional resume where i would go undercover at a country club an overheard conversations about different groups of people whether they were african americans women jews asians latinos to see what people's attitudes were in the nineteen nineties so i had done this was originally before was the first chapter in my book it was the cover story in a magazine and what happened was i remember going to the very first club this was in greenwich connecticut and for those people don't know a greenwich connecticut is our means i always say that make shit imagine a town filled with people like kathy lee gifford regis philbin again get into that narrow definition what we're talking about very affluent insulated people who are who consider themselves

to be open minded and progressive it's mostly a white anglo saxon protestant town although it has a growing jewish population and it's i think one percent black and was actually recently in the news unfortunately because of its high school yearbook and high school yearbook had published a sentence in the year book called essential all the neighbors were since june's had slept in his words but i'm it's a community that's very affluent only forty minutes north of new york city but they're at country clubs there so i interviewed five country clubs over the telephone that advertise that they were looking for a waiter positions waiter jobs so i what i did was i going to get everybody wanna go you don't talk like that ira i disguise a resume i said i had waited tables of three restaurants as that that i was twenty three when i was twenty nine and got called for two years and do it and that is realistic to stamp but the law school and a waiter in your country clubs or so but over the telephone has built a maitre d's and managers and each of them said to me at all five clubs said

to me over the phone you say like an ideal candidate won't you come right over it's just that for now they will shake your hand and you can get the job the first call i got to the receptionist said to me what you want and i said i'm lawrence commerce but your major da door on the fun half an hour ago and shes as well where we don't have any jobs that you're doing or and i said well i spoke to your major issues we'll have a major day i was wired for sound i take all of these conversations what was so surprising was that i thought that the difficulty was going to be once i got into the club and overhearing conversations they did not as i was later told they did not hire black waiters i was told at the country club eventually hired me which was the grand country club that i'm after a third callback interview that i could be a busboy but i couldn't be away to lightweight is today's betting busboys and you and the right and because they told me that palin food was can sehnert a white job so if you were a cop a bartender waiter you had to be white but you could be

a nonwhite if you're working as a busboy a dishwasher or a towel they really on the whole concept of invisible man turns up again again and again in that chapter the planet fenton my mind is which you are from a coffee cup right and there are these two women sitting there and one is saying to the other well in the growth of berlin the hispanics around at least they understand language at a time reporter katia thank you are right now is one in the invisible man i mean is she never knew it never even dawned on a day when one of them complimented me on my first day working there i said if you want to do when something for coffee and one of the numbers looked up and said my goodness what are you know you have the diction of an educator what i found my this was a compliment and is the type of bigotry that i'm talking about in this book and all the essays is what i call passive bigotry these are not hostile but it's these are not cross burnings swastika painting

brick throwing people these are people that consider themselves to be well educated they go to church every sunday us who that were produced in place a budget and absolutely believed it and believe it and i really believe now your shows perspective that that it happened at that that emerges once a club call a member of a club and many different clubs in this boat ride ride ride with one of the world's great college or where to my experience of princeton right down to the elementary school cafeteria were you see kids in supposedly integrated diverse schools separating themselves in the cafeteria i talk about the phenomenon of the all black lunch table and when you look around i grew up in a in a neighborhood outside of new york city and suburban affluent white predominantly jewish neighborhood where there were other black kids in school but i would go to school with my friends in the neighborhood who were a wealthy white kids and we got to the cafeteria i have this

problem trying to decide do i sit with the black kids who look like me but yet you at the same time i made fun of me because in their mind's eye with six years old i was already a sellout because i spoke a certain way because i live in a certain neighborhood and reward different clothes been them so it's really like living in a foot bomb with two different in two different worlds when you are something that's different from what people consider to be authentically black it seems to me that that's as true as it is in and who fit in and in the lower great at princeton it really came in really hammered itself how absurd it home on you because for a small town various for whatever reason inside many academic institutions there are black students perhaps because they feel a sense of alienation but they do form coalitions with

i guess relaxed by were gone caucuses and one who seeks to walk with a foot in each camp as you did finds himself not welcome and why we're an increasingly rejected by the project about a black talk about well the president's appearances radiation my parents pleading with me not to go because they knew the princeton with the last of the ideas to accept blacks accent just accept women and it was considered to be a very conservative or southern school in spite of the fact that was in new jersey it was a very popular school for amr boy is in that in the south to be sent to during the war certainly before the seventies before they and start admitting women or was interesting is that my parents knew the judge would go on to princeton who was the first black to have been admitted to princeton and judge bruce right i'm in new york and what happened is that they had accepted him but when he got to school the first day was wrenching for classes that it occurred

to them that he was black because i didn't know it and it still is lives in new york today and they tell the months were sorry the head of admissions rack of herman's hermits colin into his office and said oh i'm really sorry but we didn't realize that you were black and we accepted you and so that was a straw my parents always grew up with knowing and having known the judge that that was princeton's not too distant past so when i got to princeton like i was in an awkward position where i i have i knew some students both black and white were there but my black friends kept saying you know you can't have about ways you can be sitting at the black table sometimes hitting it with your white friends other times you know you have to choose which way are going ahead and that was the uncomfortable for me because i felt their you know this is this is princeton my thought it any place we would all be on the same level and be able to have friends of any background but it wasn't accepted and i remember to this day the and so when it happened it was junior senior year where assistance or trying to start a fraternity

on the grounds of the of the of the school we'll have eating clubs and unfortunately initiation for the fraternity for this white fraternity was that the guys had to urinate on the father worked on the thermal so that's where the black students in the agency and latinos didn't happen and you tell a story there were the other words that had already been induced because that's where black artist black students were saying come on no work or come on over a fellow real called of all right well i want to go over i did and i did you know but i am glad that i did because when my parents always recognize me were raising my brother i in a white neighborhood they had grown up in the end in memphis both of them and they realize the importance of us the horns are black identity and made sure that we we're not just members of the end of the lazy people were active and let the other kids are involved that we join jack and jonah and my mother's links chapter of the various organizations of the black middle class lower class belongs to in order to to come reinforce that called that heritage that we have but once i got to princeton i really wanted to do both things i found

myself a member at times going to two parties in one night dressed in two different outfits where one first i would go to what was considered white party's of eating clubs i dressed in a jacket and tie like this and then i would just sneak back to my to my room hopefully in not being seen by my roommate and then change my clothes and go off to one of the black parties was of the rural center we're still i felt awkward because people were looking at me and saying you know what you talked that way and because i would've thought that princeton and eighties would have been a diverse enough place where you could've been feeling back it was inevitable that urinating on durable center where blacks and ultimately with our very short that was really deep trouble for those people involved and that the shocking thing to me you would your reaction white professor who was told about it and said something stupid but it was more than a professor he was

the dean of students who was a princeton alumni told him how upset i was about this for china requiring these kids to do this on the front door of that of a third world center he said well or what he wanted to go scrub off the end i was amazed i was really shocked because up to that point i'd been very careful very cautious about not raising the race issue because adding raise why was i was told you know if you you know if you work hard and you go to the right schools and you keep your mouth shut then you will be rewarded and that is not the way to really live one's life though but weiss at this device and that he said that he would write a letter to the deliverance tone in and said we deplore this chair of activity but that's now he was unwilling to do anything so i ended up writing a letter jonathan stone which which drew far collection fire the only letters that were written after that was it they were saying well the only real racist here is laurence graham is one of the ironically enough was signed by my former roommate from sunday where the un and the young

there is a penchant and i've heard it before and i think everyone has been a journalism is heard before that has the newest book white society quite leading his leaders white me and maybe more than others identifying for themselves and black leaders are and you deal with that question over the black leader council is and you have some pretty tough things to say about the novel is that the american league discuss the movie shermer think it's a fascinating look i know a chapter i caught who's running this race is basically asking the question of is there one spokesperson for the black community and someone like yourself who's been a journalist and in government you know the day on the importance of different groups having spokespeople dispute for them what's happened over time is though is that the black community is often approached as the fatah monolith as if there's only one voice and but what's what's what's actually true but the black community is that there is a black urban

poor there's a black world port as a black middle class as a black professional class and we have different concerns different issues and there is no one person it's not just jesse jackson i can speak for all of us i think that i'm jesse jackson isn't as a powerful voice in an important one but the problem is is that you have groups like the end of a lacy pay for instance which is an extremely important organization which i wish more of my own people supported it because what's unfortunate is only has five hundred thousand members when thirty years ago it had a million members so even as the black population increases the membership has decreased because i think it will become too complacent typically the black middle class has felt well i've got mine so i'm not aware that anyone else but i what has happened is that in the holy city has tried to be too many things to too many different groups of people and try to salve to any problems so they become what i call them excel rights organization in that they try to solve such problems as voter registration and teen pregnancy than gangs than helping blacks get on boards of corporate america and you end up dividing up an organization that has

unlimited resources and they're suffering from a tremendous deficit right now i'm glad morally evers has taken over because of the national league would you see any an extremely hopeful because she like you price the new head of the urban league they both have a background in business and understand the importance of the economic strength of their own organization's it's not enough just to how a voice and to be able to get attention from the media or from the group that they're boycotting or contacting of trying to change the behavior of but it's important also managed the finances responsibly that this book deals i think primarily words sometimes so sometimes obvious white racism but also as i have pointed out that turns the call in an auto going to be here and the fabulous out cornell but it's both side is hugo that on the wire was the color but the but the chapter on what

happens to the aftermath and after going to the corporate world right they were there saying what i call a fear it lights out of that set was cool head nigger as far as your table in icu which is an old oh it's an old days of the bill's a minute did you make as an outsize been able to realize that term has been around for generations and what i'm talking about is what happens to those black professionals who and a corporate america and find themselves feeling as though that date will do anything it's necessary in order to get to make people around who forget that they're blocked because i feel that if i you know where the bow tie a tie with suspenders by dr bossart with the ski wax you know i can get my white coworkers to forget that i'm black and therefore i will be warrant for this and these h and i say is that i talk about are people that you would think once they got into these high level positions in corporate america had they would try to mentor other african americans after them in the same way that

i often look at the jewish population has been the success that they've had in this country and often i know it because i grew up in a jewish neighborhood and have any friends who've talked about the importance of helping those less fortunate than them and mentoring others is that some of the african american community becomes very complacent and these h and i sees find themselves doing such things as an it's telling their bosses i don't think we ought to have a martin luther king day here or i'm you know if anyone complains you can tell them that i said it's ok so the boss some bosses look for that had a black person and as i said well that's not a black person i was working in organizations some of them well rapid bow making body also unhappy a world that you know well and says that we as politically correct term for mind if we go take our holiday party at a discriminatory country club and that really undermines the credibility of any black person who's trying to advance and corporate america that i've certainly seen that we know working on wall street i find myself in the last book that i wrote before a member of the club was the best companies for minorities we spent two years serving companies and sitting in meeting various minority in women

and executives at these companies and saying what they were doing to contribute to help others after you really are deeply involved emotionally and professionally in this whole area of creating a work environment where diversity can drive how receptive his corporate america to that sort of and one interesting thing about i've enjoyed diversity consultant i teach a course at it for him a miracle minorities and women in corporate america and as i look at what's happening affirmative action today and i talk about the way you do really get to that night i see what corporate america is doing that there are many companies out there like a xerox is in some of the major in a federal express and avon major fortune five hundred fortune one thousand companies who really do want to have a diverse population they do one of our open up the opportunity so that they are equal because they recognize that there are programs in houses unofficial programs of houses that help well connected white males in particular i grew up in a neighborhood where the

kids for the summer they didn't go at a city hall like i didn't wait on line for the summer youth bureau to get injured for summer jobs they went home to their parents and they said what we know at the club has a contact and get me a job a texaco the summer we know thats of the club get me an internship live your job of being a lifeguard write anything and that the contacts are used to call my parents they have we don't know the body backs up again because for me i thought that that was what was normal and in one side you know back to princeton on of all places you'd be surprised that that's where we're at the rest of the world was not this affluent and that there were many people who simply had to wait on line to the things that i had been doing so i'm a well what's so i really do think the corporate america does make an effort some companies recognize the importance of having mentoring programs because and sitting in on some of these job hunting decisions i realize that the white net the typical white known corners as lee forty five fifty years old senior manager it's not that he is necessarily a big if it's that

comfort m plays an important factor in the hiring a person like me right exactly who was going to be full couple who reminds me of myself when i was a young person joined this company it is it's our that black woman artist injury or the gym that white guy who looks like me who i know i can tell the same joke so is talc weren't aware that the politically correct term senator i called an african american guy called black get it how were sort of those things and i think that this cuts against on people of color and women just because they are not what make most employers bosses feel comfortable not you take some shots at affirmative action and then you say there's a better way is a way to make affirmative action work when it right well i'll leave it at that when president johnson created affirmative action nineteen sixty five that it was extremely poorly salinas are i think that it should still be i believe it to be permanent like very upset when i when i when i hear a debate with conservatives who say that in an affirmative actions done its job or it hasn't done anything so therefore it's not a great

deal of good i would and be where i am today had it not been for affirmative action because even though i mean i was phi beta kappa and college it doesn't matter i still know that when employers looked at me when i walked in the door they forgot about the credentials they're like you know should we hire this black guy and there were certain government mandated that they have to hire certain number of minorities because i know that there are bias is going against these different groups and it doesn't allow hot chili atmosphere was inside the door for our show is very warm glow of affirmative mechanism only one you yet what exactly they want as an anti think you said there are ten ten percent of your freshman class we i was on a paper probably eighty nine percent of the freshman class was was african american at the princes and i still give difference i get money every year because i had a wonderful education academically speaking was it was apparent occasion like i don't regret that all raises the social experiment but the affirmative action program that policy that i suggest is one that michael buys neutralizing

i think that there are a lot of a lot of private buyers outside in the community and i advise lot of companies to my diversity consulting firm where i told them you know there's certain houses that you have going on that you don't even recognize how they cut against iran people of color for instance i was advising an accounting firm that kept saying to me that they're trying to they're unable to find enough black and latino recruits and isobel where recruiting visible here that these attend schools were creeping up and i saw how they pick these ten they said well it's mostly the people from our senior managers in our board members went to school and i looked at the schools and they were not like really top schools they were just happen to these schools were they had connections that i said well you know if you look at the schools most of these courts have less than two percent on the minority population in a literally was that small as it how would you ever find still visible one actually strike like at duke or are been in or cornell are vanderbilt or if i was making suggestions and they said well as a great skills as a guest are great schools which are to find a lot of a minority

students at these schools that there are a lot of companies that operate based on a sort of an old boy system that they don't even realize oh boy they say well we're looking for blacks dunes that were looking for for them you know had called in college outside of minneapolis you know they're not going to find them there and that there are other things that they can do that i think that are helpful minorities don't have a difficult time in their foot in the door at the sky at these companies they have a difficult time finding mentors once they get there and what helps people succeed in corporate america is having a mentor who can advise you can protect you and you can even tell you simple things like you know that in this company you have to wear white shirt when this company you have to make sure that you work through lunch hour we have to make sure that you stay at least till after six o'clock there's some rules that are not written in any employee guidebook that people have to to have to learn and they can only learned from mentors what's the year before we run out on the set our listeners sped by the way you

look at it and we were really really at a crossroads of sunscreen maybe every decade we been a new cross roads but the militancy has died and so rights movement there is some complacency there exists some places where there has been very passive in progressive change including in corporate america including in the academic world but there is still obvious racism that exists you know experienced you come to grips with the whip every side of this issue what's the future for this country as we look at an effort to do it really well i'm extremely hopeful i'm hopeful i hear some people i was just in in memphis before dinner and someone called into whether it shows i was doing and said i'm actually a developer of the few weeks of basic simple reason why i think as a race war coming and i don't agree with that theory at all because i think people are more willing now to discuss these issues i think that as unfortunate as it was about what happened in los angeles but the rodney king incident in riots i think it

forced people outside of the cities outside of the urban communities to talk about these issues because it used to be that that that race in and in bigotry was just a southern issue that some people minorities like the tar to insurance holders graham after a member of the clan has been our guest journalist and john's seton chairman of the freedom forum's first amendment center at vanderbilt university this program was produced in the studios of wbez in nashville