A Word on Words; 3717; Marshall Goldman

the liz from nashville studio way celebrating offers literature and ideas for more than three decades this is word on workers with jobs don johnson and welcome once again to award own words my guest today is an internationally recognized authority on russian history politics and economics he's met with mikhail gorbachev and vladimir putin he has advised former president george h w bush and president george bush when russia was a warm welcome to work and

words for you to talk about it back on word on words to talk about their state power in the us for the story i read the book and my eyes were opened to a new threat to international stability how did it ever happen that you got his hands on the natural gas resource not only for russia and those for most urban states in eastern europe but for western europe that actually goes back number of a reagan was very much concerned about the fact that the soviet era the soviets want to build a pipeline to germany to the way to western europe and reagan did everything he could to frustrated and a german said look are we were free ourselves more dependence on the middle east so this is a way of balancing them off so what happens is their age he ended up in

effect with another a problem trying to solve was probably up with another problem there that pipeline is or you know my guess is that when i say that not two people across that camera lens on any idea that vladimir putin can turn off the home heating for forty percent of the german people well there's a little more awareness now because of what's been happening the last couple days with between the fight between ukraine and russia the gas comes from russia into ukraine most of it comes in ukraine so but there's another pipeline to the north that has to be part of the soviet union so it really wasn't ukraine russia it was a soviet union and from there the pipeline goes into germany to adapt well to eastern europe to western europe all the way down actually difference and politically there's even some now going off into great britain underneath the north sea so that they're there and the pipeline is there that

energy is there and they become accustomed to it you know i watch hillary clinton's a television appearance before a senate committee for confirmation miller three times be issued russian access to a pipeline control that pipeline full most of the three times she was asked about a three time she responded and acknowledged that it's a problem it's an international problem for unicef well it is because what happens if you know if there's only borrowers we've had experts a problem with oil prices go up but they're usually a variety of alternative sources but filled with the gas is it in this case is just that one pipeline you don't understand why part one because i'm closer to five billion dollars just to have it sitting there i really can't afford it so during your time that pipeline a pipeline has cut off there's nothing there and so what you see is the germans been neutralized to some extent <unk> pretty tough when it comes to russia

nonetheless has begun to pull her punches when we saved talked about ukraine joining nato or georgia joining nato or the european union fish the russians say we don't like it everywhere with the worst what it's not worth provoking the russians are really does not want to london and i don't know the un or normal prey and he can punish the ukraine he can punish georgia and has to end you can't punish western that's what they're worried about and read two years ago or two thousand january two thousand six i guess or three years ago they cut off the pipe and they didn't actually in january two thousand seven and the wonder if you'd let the pipeline cross because then they really have you have would say over a barrel but over a part of a pipeline you know and you point out pretty early on in the book that we think of saudi the saudis because they have more reserves of crude oil and any other places being

the country really key room when you point out first of all that the twenty seven percent of the natural gas reserves in russia and the war of the worlds of world reserves and russian twenties and the service another fifteen percent and another forty percent and qatar talk about looking for friends in rural and natural gas got to the road say when he was well i learned so much from this book and really open up and i'm albino you thought the national committee on foreign relations allow joint pain and gets you don't really focus on some of the wonderful anecdotes are locked into between is covered but give again put his album over and they are all of a james bond and and you got booed and in

the role of ian fleming villain and the talk about their relationship i think it's important to the story of the relationship between food and then george w bush that's it's bizarre really that's probably the best word for it because you can think of two people who appear in other respects would be so differently you brought up so differently in a natural enemies it turns out their incredible friends i have a bond between them but that if you had told me was that without having watched all this to take place if you to lose its was going to happen you're looking at it just will that will be both of them are kind of macho towards both alarm or national latino supporters of their own countries who is of the russian nationals border which were certainly as a nationalist for the united states and yet they have this bond how have come about well it's a fascinating story during the campaign penn campaigned in the year two thousand when george bush was running against al gore one of the things

that come to lisa rice and george w bush stressed was that we are the united states and no longer going to let ourselves grieve and the tools of of the russians because george and al gore had been chairman and co chairman of the russian the us commissioner board journal reardon commission and the bush attitude was a war was giving everything away so we're not going to have any of these bilateral meetings that will have multilateral maze but no bilateral meetings so that was what that was taught that was a very hard stand but about april the two thousand won after the election after he'd won remember there was a crash between an american plane and a chinese plant and that set off a lot of tension between the united states joe donnelly china but not russia and so at that point they change their mind and so we'll go back and we'll have this by law it will have bilateral reason so they scheduled meeting in slovenian and in preparation for that being founder lisa rice gave george bush has little book to read called first

person it's in it's in english it's a translation of a russian book and then it was about quote would just come into power and we don't know much about who the time so this was an attempt to buy the russian lot of publishers to try to get some information to the public at large of a series of interviews with his mother and others in it george bush read that the pope had been secretly baptized in the soviet period by his mother but that was not what we did but generally i forgot his client later the kgb in his grandmother had worked for the kgb so george bush read this and then when they had the reading and slovenia comedian george bush's top well i should say that that meant that that first he was going to baptize but there are additional he went to israel about nineteen ninety three and before that that trip his mother gave him a cross and said would you go to jerusalem have a blessed by the russian orthodox priest ever assure that archers is a

very strong pro so we didn't he came back and it turned out that there was a fire and he was wearing the cross before then but he would do if there was a fire in a sauna that he had built it just brand new in atlanta duchess of summer oh indeed so easily lost across and firemen found it he describes you thought this cross and survived the fire that support so george bush reasons and so it's at this meeting george bush comes in the media and he says to go to tell me about the cross you know what what about if they hit a soda so it's a potent ultimately and understood towboat and it was a that after that meeting when george bush walked out of the room and he said i looked into his eyes and i got a sense of his soul i was unaware of that his background before heard those words and i said you got a sense of too solis former kgb agent is crazy but but that's and that's where it comes from you know that that that the heat had the bed

baptize see that for a born again christian leaders of abortion says was very important well you know you look at them into history as you cited and you take us through the rich off and i i knew that that financial downturn hurt the russian economy barely nodded know it took all of our jobs savings really don't we let down that other for the first time a huge legacy yeltsin i didn't know him and that he was on his daughters or thieves and ripped off those countries ended though those companies that have been privatized there was a wonderful anecdote about a fellow parks his car and the cop says you don't worry man drives into the kremlin parks his car gets on an abolition of the police

who runs out of the departure brother jeb porter crow it's you that this is right under your son's office there's a story i lucked up with some other russian you know if you were as that's their salvation all the way through the soviet period yes and we forget those four prime ministers the year before you finally come to talk about that you know he was looking for somebody who would be tough but more important given his background his shady bad things that were going on one of the things that that yeltsin was worried about was being prosecuted you know russians traditionally there were the traditional going after the last leader and so you didn't really awesome was worried about that sort of things he wanted from his successor it was a commitment to that that he would not be prosecuted and some of the others

people that he'd had nearly won seats on the other promises he was trying out what else was present says turnout was going to be his successor and one of the they all said no we were not given that guaranteed full guarantee that he would not go out after yeltsin and of persecuting for prosecuting for for the misdeeds of place on his watch it's interesting how could an approach our you call together what you call what they call the oligarchs these people move one privatization comes lay make a fortune they take basically what were state assets and rich of the remake and and it's a real rubles and it comes down in britain called mall and others have given no the politics and you recite it and then you talk about yourself for five times that you say our politics and i'll leave you alone at me pretty much live up to that pledge to law all i

think they're down twenty we really can't see a penny candy and so intimate what what he's worried about it that that's enough to make these people back off up to me now because he'd be they've learned that certainly with who wanted it that the richest man in russia one of the oligarchs of revenue for costly who basically took some other or less that's what we're privatization it took these ss there was no value added they didn't do anything to develop new products or do that do things they just grab these assets which represents a view you had a friend just to everyone so he was worth maybe ten fifteen billion dollars and record speed up with what i've told them figure that wealthy that sometimes ago syria and so he decided to do anything you want it done and the quality got in the city was one of the great someone in opposition to provide support to appear he's now siberian isn't so you just you need and then i'm talking with marshall

goldman about his book a better state power and the new russia and ivan it's so much fun when things i should tell you did learns where worker didn't want that partnership for people would look at things was prostate so offended by it but it understanding it again if i go beyond the camera lens to audience and asked them to tell me what gazprom was they would not know if the third largest corporation in the world well that's interesting it got to the point a few months ago where it was the second oh well not not one liners was exxon mobil yes that was a joint general electric drive the stock down unfortunately well no no actually since the book was written number one though no it was because the stock market and russia as collateral in a meeting gets down thirty three year forty year something like yeah and

this has caused a lot of internal tension emotional because not everybody's many people invested in the stock market but these companies know that are having problems because their assets and they've depleted the forest is a force except of course our energy prices a former death so so again my dear wife says the book is obsolete because oil prices are down but the pipeline is still there and let me play is not obsolete i mean when you have dick cheney two years ago flying too russ concerts now it goes over and talks about we must have an alternate pipeline and the caspian sea we must not leave the russians with this much if you're a foreigner in their in their bombs you know that books obsolete that that all that need for an alternative route is

expensive it is it is very expensive and the russians see that and understand that and understand that if there is an alternative pipeline that spilled that will take away their monopoly power over their political cause so they do everything they can to frustrate that effort one way they go out to the potential suppliers kazakhstan say don't want to sign up with this new pipeline stick with us because we have a better country with either personally or the customers and i say you don't want to sign up with is or western don't know if it's called the local pipeline will give you a better contract and the countries in europe instead of the united states golf and try to make separate deals to protect themselves and in the process the russians can play one off against another and if you don't have the suppliers you know that customers are going to be able to raise the three to five billion dollars ready to build these apartments and so so far it's it's stupid it's not dead in the water but it's not moving very first i had no idea of the chaotic are you here with your wife says roughly

i had no idea of the chaos that privatization created an infomercial would be eliminated the country was already four thousand i remember of course that when everybody got them down werewolves to be redeemed buy stock in a company they in a mindset against capitalist seventy years as these were a precocious and indian work except for those who became monarchs who could sue you could say it so manpower coming from government others will make an online market there a couple of stories in the longfellow starts out some of the military service in the construction business meeting small needs in the next thing you know invest well you know anybody who had money at that

time but he did have to services you have a report card workers was on something there were no services unit and horatio alger well you can't ignore that that's exactly what it was and so when he had money and an opportunity came to buy the stock he was able to do it and he did become an oligarch ultimately of course today he set up a chain of newspapers or media the comedian will also speak and he began to attack to do that like very dangerous and now he's in exile both in the united states and well in western your question say by the way that at one point it was tim visitors christen ski accused him of working having kgb people work for doing an ethical things and he threatened to sue me for libel so i have mixed emotions about it but ultimately he did break with food he did stand up into the right thing he was arrested for a while but that's what you do if you would stand up and criticize putin's soul whatever whatever fats proteins fold

from across energy for out there from italy always remembered soul ever happened the only game of the kgb still knew how to be kgb tough stuff that he was and is on anybody the challenges and you mentioned that the new revenue the new man his successor just briefly what you make of their relationship funny but prime minister you say a key will be if he moves out a palatial dallas with his family the big an indication he really making the president but what you make of their relationship is like a father and son relationship it was like when your son and i want my son to go and what this is you know sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't mean there's a twelve years age difference two really top of eleven made him his protege and recently there've been signs of tension you begin doing things wrong dad if you were the modern

mann you would know you know better so i did i do see some signs that it's going to take a little while but ultimately i think the advent of them saying oh here get away that the difficulty for medvedev at this point is that everybody all the ceo of some structure the staffing the food is putting his own people he's rewarded his former colleagues from the kgb they are now in very lucrative positions and they have hiv negative tries to challenge she doesn't have supporting our people to fall and the idea behind them and so it's going to be a little tricky for him to do that i don't think many people are gonna turn her back on food at least for the time being you know so it's really tough naturalization period our theme song and how tough is a day before us well you do with the iraq obama succeed no joint anti bush mean what you what you make of all or something like a lot more than if you're you're awfully both but the filming i think

and commands a loyalty he's making the decision as prime minister really hasn't he hasn't voted to retire eventually stepped aside as president i should give up to it and credit right away because he has stepped aside or term limits and he stepped aside has resonated disappear so he's still very much around and he's you know he's kind of wrestling with the advent of four for some of these decisions but by outside it a former obama i'd certainly open up to try to serve that i would not turn my back down to tell you a story and so i was very lucky to have been in moscow when the nineteen ninety one revolution to police who then gore which over with putting an exiled they brought him back and he's spoken and to the russian supreme soviet not the soviet supreme soviet but the russians originally were yeltsin's office will it appeal sims office and over them both yeltsin that's when yeltsin tourist gorbachev meet and

confer they came they both came out and i was with ted koppel and who was trying to interview these people and couple wanted to get a hold of gorbachev and one of the staff people say gorbachevs gone yeltsin is that what you want to talk to you are sheltered here to take over well you're caught in this situation to go talk to poor video but i think they have to maintain links and obama's going to retain links with both be going back to that time to transition a very funny story about how tough privatization was when you tell about what's on rush and self effacing joke fell about a car loan take five years well this is again the review we forget how bad things were first for the individual consumer not the story for the state in all things change so a guy goes into the

earth so that woodwork carved out of money or park our egos and continues to sales manager says well that's very nice but it's going to take you five years and we can promise you delivery until june first the five years you know that would be a safer they would be ode to the morning at your ten o'clock or three o'clock this war what difference it makes is five years from a reasonable plumbers coming in well the book and loaded with anecdotes there is historically develop crossways with the russian mafia and find the ball courts and surreal that's a real story and not just oregon and he's offered he suffered a forgery just art but he ended up hers are really he was at one point a deputy minister deputy prime minister and it became a partner with an american of the bank and he told me all these stories cause he challenged

some of the people in the russian officials bureaucrats who are really stealing the state he challenged the leadership love of gospel and they don't like that and they launched of a publicity campaign attacking him he went around afterwards and got the price list of what you could would prevent it isn't as a journalist that was tremendously interesting terry is surely the less you shoot and that did the newspapers attack him it takes at and finally goes around after time and says why did you do it with me and there's a checkbook journalism has that has it because we will pay six thousand dollars to attack you sound so and because of that when he was able to do that when his antagonists the guy who was the chairman of the last group was brought about it that that's one of the things he was trying to do it once he was going to the payments stop that he could go to the newspapers so you say these things about me so it was it was very interesting to see this ad he opened up he showed me the list in only angeles

following maryland anybody in this country what can be the future of our relationship during the next four years i figured if there's a good chance it'll be rocky will be rocky because the answer frankly to the price of oil cuomo's backup a given that the russians feel very assertive and when we got the wherewithal we could do the cities if oil prices are down they don't have the money to get to do this and it's the second largest holdings of hard currency in the world you know so that's what that's what made potent this very strong right now so that he was going to steal stretching is sold as again an almost trying to regain some of the proceeds of the stature they had if oil prices are down that's going to limit what they can do is go to limit their buildup of military but the russians say we're back to that says we're back we would be strong and we don't want to be humiliated when oil and sand kicked in our face and you've got to be respectful and saw that that could be that could

be moving back to iraq each time you run out of time but could be thanked marshall says they're cutting back on it again and johnson bought thanks for watching and they are there is a moon as a teacher