A Word on Words; 4007; Ron Messier

liz from nashville studio way celebrating offers literature and ideas for more than three decades this is word on workers with jobs john sigg and all around once again welcome to our own words my guest today is ronald a messier professor of middle east history at middle tennessee state university is here to talk about his book jesus one man to face in his quest to find a channel discussion between muslims and christians has found jesus to be the channel of his birth his life is merkel's we discover not only similarities between the two phases but their differences are more compean complimentary then and contradictory thanks for being here welcome to world war ii shrunk delighted to be here there is not something more pressing in our state and our region and our country and in the world and then then the differences between

and christians and muslims nine eleven has created a whole new world and on and as i read the book i thought for the first time on that could be an answer to lives next decade the peace what did you want people well it actually started shortly after nine eleven we were all terribly traumatized by that event and i think that would be true to say that everyone felt that the almost personal attack or i felt that way certainly than it might have been even a little more traumatic for me because at that point my life i had been working with muslims for over thirty years and then i knew that this was going to get this was going to turn out badly my first reaction to the event was please god let this not be the work of

muslims quote was hard and then i knew that islam was going to suffer as much as we were going to suffer from this after working as a middle east historian a professor of islamic studies for over thirty years i felt that we had made a lot of progress but life so that in the process of coming undone i thought we were on the verge of really really appreciating what islamic culture had to offer and i saw that taking a turn downward so that was part of my thinking that we really have to work and there's another thing for it was that in the immediate aftermath of nine eleven and this was probably one of the few good things that came from that people became very hungry to learn something about islam book stores were selling books all kinds of books about islam a new body also so given that situation i was asked as albright college were being

asked colleagues mark fields were being asked to do talks at churches and civic organizations everywhere and i would say that in the first few years after nine eleven i gave at least one talk a week about over a hundred and two year's public service talks and the question of religion always came up are you know what muslims think about this in comparison to where we christians believe and i often didn't know the answer fortunately that happened i said the next time that question comes up on that have an answer so i started really really focusing on these comparisons it's on so that started shaping up this particular line of inquiry and then an emptiness in the book there were four conversations that really really important in taking this particular direction and got the first one really threw me for a loop it was with a man named whip barton and whip barton is the sound of one of my former colleagues herb

bachmann is a professor of islamic studies well i was visiting her blind date his home and his son which was also there where it was at i'm a phd candidate in islamic studies at harvard university and he was also a preacher in the united church of christ and one thing that he said he said you know run my study of islamic mysticism my reading of them is that given all of it has helped me as a christian understand the trinity how could that be possible and he went on to explain how he said it in a lot of the takes the names for god was limbs believe that there are ninety nine names for got andy parsons these names in interesting ways mostly in paris for example god the giver of life god the giver of death that's apparent complementary pair got the o merciful god the old just

a complementary pair got the perfect master got the perfect servant a complementary pepper and that especially resonated with him because he's got the perfect mustard that sounds a lot like what we christians describe god the father to give god the perfect servant that resonates as how we think about jesus christ and so he you know he he pursued that line of inquiry into her second conversation with or your former student the student part one i shouted and she soon for our understanding the lives of jews yeah and she knows he's in a strike and all flawed people those of the state just can't be so what possibly could almost long learn that were a lead him or to be more committed to face the founding of bungee what many many

muslims people muslims who know about the life of jesus and many of them do jesus is a root beer is a very important prophet and their culture jesus was a servant jesus stressed public service jesus stressed mercy for giving more forgiving of people who attended us jesus stressed loving one's neighbor is oneself and these are these are really universal values that muslims share as much as anyone and so they can look to jesus as a role model and pat was certainly dead and then she had something else very specific in mind actually and this is quite common that are on the day of judgment is jesus who will come back his second coming and he will come back to lead the righteousness to judgment on then and and she even said she feels really good about that and she is convinced and the deepest reaches of her so that it is jesus in the parliament who will play that role on the day of judgment very

close issue of alleviation mike shoemaker just an incredible guy he can only be a shoemaker i call him the shoemaker because well he works he worked for me for six years my archaeological excavation and marco and when he wasn't working for me he made shoes and so choose but anyway this was an enormous site and and when i would be at one end of the site and had to walk to the other and decide to check on another part of the excavation it was a twenty or twenty five minute walk in hollywood often say well i'm going to go with your medicare your grip and what he really wanted was an opportunity to talk so we talk about all kinds of things and he was a curious guy one day we talked about jihad and he was very quick to point out that jihad has many meanings the greatest meaning he said for most of us muslims is that it's an inner struggle it's a struggle within ourselves for righteousness it's a struggle against evil well

i knew that but then he asked me if there was anything like that in christianity and i was kind of stuck and then i for some reason remembered a passage in the book of occasions where the fictitious chapters six we were asked to put on the armor of god and in that armor consists of the helmet of righteousness in the shield of faith initiative that sounds a lot like jihad another day we talked about mary and her son jesus and we were not really close and our interpretation of that but that was ok he turned to me and he said professor why is it that we need to different religious and again he stopped and i thought about it a bit and i said ali i think i think history is responsible for that in a week when you get to a certain point in the road and an unheated different directions that in another group the

further down those two different rows there you go the greater the differences are gonna be life and i think that happened between christianity and islam probably during the middle ages but you mentioned the crusades to me earlier and that was one of those judges which is not going down different and a full conversation forth conversations on it was that that was the most recent was about a little over three years ago i was in istanbul and i was at this foundation for journalists in riders and our host was explaining the philosophy of this particular foundation it was the philosophy of getting to know people of a different culture and getting to know them for who they are and respecting them for who they are without trying to change that and he said if we can dialogue between cultures the world would be a better place well i was on an interface mission and so on and the question and answer period i said you know youre preaching to the choir here how do you convey this idea to people who are

less inclined to dock and his answer was very quick and very straightforward he said by example and with humility just like when jesus washed the feet of his disciples and this is a muslim communities the thing the thing that and that strikes me as i read the book and as i think of the world as exists as this book is written you're right there's not alone will went to bookstores still had some help in those days we always in the bookstores and to find out more about islam a lot of those those books presented with islam in a very negative light on and the result of that is that there are many many people who don't understand in this country of

ours how is longview was about jesus on how common deals with his life his death there are nuances in their differences and he was a prophet and i'm not a savior senate use to islam but talk a little bit about that and maybe more than a little bit about that whole acknowledgement of jesus christ to muslims you mean to what extent are muslims aware of their sales pitches to what extent are muslims and obviously it's their faith they are both also bob questions that are in your book i was talking to a friend and i was talking to him about how this one felt about jesus not to line your book that

infuriated you'll hear it didn't believe it for the book to me ma'am in a salinger buff but i but they you know it it's reality and anonymous change our perception of that whatever it was before but you but jesus has a very meaningful presents in muzzled by now while he's first of all he's mentioned extensively in the koran so positively and arrow only positive i have never ever ever met a muslim who would speak disparagingly of jesus on and they would be extremely offended if anyone spoke disparagingly of jesus and they believe on that he was first of all born of the virgin mary and a christmas story as it's described in the new testament jesus was born in the virgin birth they believe that wholeheartedly in fact they believe that probably more

quantitatively then christians there i know many christians who at least questioned how the virgin birth could take place i've never met a muslim who questions that because it's an ambiguous in the koran that jesus was born in the virgin birth when and how did that happen it's quite straightforward it was the will of god so jesus is present on earth according to most muslims who you know degrading the crime seriously they believe that he was here because of the world got well why did you want him to be here because he had a message to deliver so they believe in the gospels they believe that jesus is convince of the gospels was part of god's work for those of you just joining us and talking to rally last year about his book jesus one man to face and you just talked about the similarities in way that motion field and christians feel about the virgin birth they're invaded they

get there is the difference is i read in the book who at how i feel about how we feel about the resurrection christians valued the resurrection as the stories told about muslims are treated more as an ascension anyone up from across as a post from our grief and it's the parent says to his photos are not part of the abortion fight maybe a difference and so the distinction brought it to do it's it's there but leland evil and that difference is an acknowledgement in jesus' divinity well welcome we'll talk about the vanity and i brought an end that's mike and then i'm in the german and environment and misusing all of it here

but but but the miracles are they are absolutely and they believe in his miracles as we do absolutely yeah and in fact there's one miracle that appears in the koran that does not appear in the us and announced this miracle where jesus made birds out of clay years and he breathed lifeline is intel's birds and they feel like we're really struck me about that particular passage is that though the rhetoric of jesus doing that act is virtually identical to the rhetoric of god creating humans out of clay and breathing life into them so incensed jesus had that power to give life that power to go where god's power culture so there's to me a very very strong similarity that slight distinction perhaps but but i find the similarity more

compelling you know i guess given nine eleven other is in our society i am well it's it with many people are taken they have done this to us and and they're bad people and the idea of that jesus plays any role in their faith is an alien idea and one that they reject and a sense of your book then the side and save americans for example there isn't there is no willingness to acknowledge the knowledge that i've struggled with that issue when i read this book recently about toxins in our life

member of his death by suburbs and toxins at how life could be things like what flat screen tvs mercedes benz and there's no chance of the toxin is there should be an antidote ok so if in this sport difficulty on the part of some people to come to terms of islam of the toxin is ignorance or simply not knowing enough about islam then the antidote should be easy but the antidote for lack of knowledge is information or education and that's the business that i'm in so i thought well gosh i should be all to you know be part of the answer there well that doesn't work in every case and if that doesn't work it suggest that the toxin is more complicated than lack of information that's our fear fear that leads to hate hate is a very toxic talks and by golly i'm not sure what the antidote to that is i guess the antidote is love

the antidote to hate as love and that's that's a difficult one to administer you go no the model ahead to many a lot of wind is a collection of those authors devil sitting on the news deguerin was written in twenty two years according to muslims god's word to mohamed and god's word to them through mountain bump and that is that's a difference beyond a distinction and it creates a clear separation but it strikes me that and maybe less relevant to how we look at each other how muslims and christians look at each other or it also strikes me that nine eleven probably drive home that wage because it's one that's that's clearly stated

how you build a break over that well in terms of the formation of scripture the canonization of scripture i spend a lot of time talking about that you found from the muslim perspective on and they see the process of revelation as one very long process of revelation that began with the old testament and the muslims regard the old testament as revealed scripture there reason to regard the new testament at least the gospels as revealed scripture and the koran it continued that process now they do believe that the process ended with the death of muhammad butt was a very long continuous process and they also acknowledged that human beings played a role in that in fact therefore if there are disagreements between old testament new testament calling those differences are attributed to the roles the role that humans played in communicating that revelation on they see an advantage in the fact that the coal on the formation

of the koran was much more compressed than it was a much shorter period of time are and and in fact if one looked at a column today it would be identical to the core wants that existed in the seventh century you know i know i know and by and by to this fight and having gone through that process of buying books and read about it i have some honest the angel gabriel in a grant vaught vote in their areas yeah really exactly and he was instrumental he was the voice and in some cases not every case actually and this is something that a lot of people who study islam are not aware of the revelations did not come to mom it exactly in the same form muhammad himself said that sometimes the revelations in as noise or simply is no abuse or as the reverberations of the balance sometimes it was very clearly the voice of the

angel gabriel on it but then but then a revelation again in this this indicates that mama played some role here he had to sort out the meaning and the meaning is what ended up as the koran in muslim tradition it was finalized at the death of muhammad but not in written form and that within twenty years after that it was finalized in written form let's talk about the story hear that with your the split use quite clear and quite often of them would someone up wilson so interesting it's an absolutely gripping question love who was a minute long and how it came to be right exactly and so if you know if god revealed this story to jews and christians and one way in reveal that muslims in another way one would think that god knew

which side he required to be sacrificed for but here's the way i try to deal with that in the book i am so when we read a story in the bible it says that abraham are prepared to sacrifice his only son isaac muslim exit its muslim critics of the bible say that isaac was never abrahams only son by the time isaac was born he was the second son and ishmael real reason he was the oldest son and both of them were alive at a woman's death and so muslims would take come with dick ishmael well as those who would be sacrificial that's traditional that's not in the koran actually because the koran does not yet given a and now after all that discussion takes place in my mind i think that that discussion frankly misses the point of the story because if one reads on in the koran and this is the most important part of the

story in my judgment paper and then asks his song whoever it was you know god told me that i'm supposed to sacrifice you what you think about that and we don't read that in the bible and his son says if that's the will of god then i am prepared to go along with that they have a difficult time not so they move comes out of that as i read your book they have a difficult time believing that god would have subjected his son to sort of ignominious death only option that's right and that's a different calls this farm i'm not terribly surprised by that because they're christians tend to be shocked by the fact by the horror of that execution and if we read the story in the gospel peter had exactly that same reaction yet when peter when jesus told his disciples

or yemen peter norton and petersen never did not happen to you and i think that's quite similar to the kind of reaction that muslims have nots a little more complicated than that in islam i think i think the biggest problem that our muslims have with the crucifixion is the idea of vicarious atonement that is that someone anyone has to pay for our sins and then of course if they if they sort of push the crucifixion assad then that becomes a non issue if you know we have just a minute left and i must ask you you teach ethan lindsey state in murfreesboro and that community is locked into a dispute right now over lived in march than the same problem new york go where the site is a few blocks away from nine eleven the site of the towers falling the three way anyway any way

out of this conflict by bringing people together with an understanding of how muslims feel about jesus well first of all i think i think the opponents to the mosque in murfreesboro are relatively small a number of supporters a much larger number i'm afraid that most of the opponents are are suffering from the talks and other than education so i'm not sure that saying this can happen on i think maybe the best solution is as my host in istanbul said through example and humility perhaps you know if people got out and introduce themselves the muslims if they got to know muslims in an honest way now it's so their neighbors as their neighbors really or the knot is possibly a toxin we

really i hope that will be the answer but it is so much for coming and talking about a crucial subject and for writing a book that puts new light in my judgment very age old conflict and controversy and thank all of you for watching i'm john single other word on words you grew up