A Word on Words; 4221; Stephen Mansfield

us the from nashville public television's stood in the way of celebrating authors literature and ideas for more than three decades this is worrisome and it is built on john c hall welcome once again jordan lorence recognize my guest today has been in the meantime stephen mansfield a respected writer speaker commentator the intersection religion politics and culture has written several bestsellers the fatal brought obama favored

george w bush lincoln's battle with gaudy back today with his latest book killing jesus stephen lawrence wright is an introduction about the gritty realism within these pages the execution of jesus writes the crime or the streets the barracks the enclaves the privileged smoke filled back rooms of religious and political power brokers what a story welcome to get your own words thank you so much it is a story and it's a story that most of the snow i'm sitting in church listening to the gospel is read from aboard the army and you'd been through the gospels but you have land also gone through research to jewish customs and derision all roman custom home and more let's begin talking about how difficult that search warrants to find out about

the conspiracy to kill you know i was recent years like a lot of us and out and i heard the story primarily from the pulpit and as i got older and it's advanced degrees in history i began to be interested in what can we confirm outside of scripture and i think the gospels are historical sources but what can we confirm outside of that would totally suspect the gospels what else do we have and we have quite a bit and it actually moves the story or the story and as i say an intro more gritty more bloody more horrifying also unity i think so and yet you know i coming on the heels of years later mel gibson being so criticized for being bloody i actually come to the conclusion not on the book but in my mind that he was as bloody as the story actually was so my point is not to be greedy my point is to find what would happen on the street on the sea how would have felt as best possible and so that's what i want to do well and you say in there that let that you feel that

way about mel gibson's fill on the the point i would make is that sitting there in church loosening the chapter and syria over a period time and then all three years you get a sense of the story an autonomous at the brutality of it i never felt the brutality of a deeply and it's personally until i really read about it and you you know you don't get the sense that the book provides thirty louis conspiracy story with these three magi who come to an end and warn the original heroine and

from that day until i'm in the next thirty years it's so it's a conspiracy to get a yes a kilo that's king is out there somewhere and we know he was born and in his parents on the senate when they've taken away and then they hired him away and and it's not until he begins to insist on coming out on coming out and end and pursuing this mission not until that is you really get a really get a sense that and he's in the danger and invest and you know i think that that the lack of clarity on the subject in many minds as a result of that sounds like i'm criticizing scripture when i say this but we have a verse but this section of the time we're reading scriptures with a riveting two liturgies insurer to our daily devotions of the site so rarely do we get the big picture and scripture you're four gospels you read a chopped up it's hard to get the whole thing now infamous and when you do

you begin to realize he was haunted every day of his life he was very late into the killing when he was two he starts preaching i'm skipping over something he starts preaching he goes to his own home town and again because the scriptures are written a certain way we hear it as the media liturgies and religious tolerance we don't take a moment similar to the hometown crowd the guys you played with on the streets of the parents at his dinner table you with his buddies to come to the edge of a cliff and trying to throw him off to kill him because he said something nice about the gentiles and i can say that i met people he was watching read the bible i guess it's true but it's simply the way we read it in the sort of chop that way we don't allow the on the street kind of three d drama enter into our minds but his own hometown tried to kill him and this was in the first weeks of his public ministry that's very dramatic and that that kind of thing continues all way too course filled with respect to fizzle and they're there moments there moments when when you're

able to give us insights that we simply don't get the truth for all reason to just mention at all the reasons that anybody reads killing jesus will will understand and i just take that scene with mary madden is famous or infamous rumors about his healing elaine the blunt about lazarus' poem buffalo things are circulating and they know he's out there somewhere and but they never really make the effort to crow laws in the air and until until words begin to spread that that that is blasphemous and now it was blasphemy in the first instance in the temple with it in some

minds or her to a waste that nored had on his feet doesn't make girl and you know you can read the scripture again again i have now isn't drinkable going back and there's no absolutely beautiful it as a prison and that as to what is the gospel to prison but i never got the sense of outrage that just don't hit that town after they heard about this wasteful demonstration by this obviously beautiful woman this and it you know it we don't really expect people who attend church or people in their early christian life or religious life to read about the customs of the time and so that comes and bible schools and theology schools but i dont know how you read the bible without it for example you know the big shop the initial shock of that story referring to is that she took down her hair and that's a big thing in our generation my wife takes anywhere from about all the time in public about that time though in

front of the other men that her husband with a public with a crowd in the home take down her hair sacrilege sacrilege then the touch a rabbi huge we don't think about that that would shake out of our ministers or she cuts are about and she touched him with her hair all that's an offense before we even get to the expense of the larger how it could have been used for the poor of course the thing that sends you listen to it isn't so there are so many different offenses based on the customs of the time and i wanted to tell the story and that light is then you get a sense this woman can be as she committed multiple infractions we just don't know and half of them are because we don't know the customs and he takes her out i mean word spreads its allow a blasphemous act yeah well any tower it permitted to encourage the us that's been done you know was there ever a point when you came in conflict with the friction there are there was a point where i came in contact with the chronology of the scriptures does not only thing that i can find

in the roman historians in josephus and so on are the conflicts with the scriptures but you do have cost chronological problems because the gospels are written with an eye towards that and settlements were clearly the earth thematic we organized in this come coming from different lighting different riders riding a different periods some of whom were there are hearing it secondhand now you know we are christians believe it's it's inspired scripture but i so i think that's even more interesting you have these distinctions in these variations of these personalities coming to the story and yet it's still considered to be inspired some are problem had nothing do with the actual facts but whenever you tried it weave together the chronology with those facts you into some trouble because you're just not good enough says us a new enough enough with this out woven together chronologically so you know for sure you know it's interesting to me that suddenly i think of your local bookstore and i turn to go out and that's a book called zealot

for jesus the new york times book review section find bill o'reilly is after the same story year after lunch i'm sure before his own rock slightly ledger book you may find echoes in unknown and all riley his book on killing jews that originated in europe while i must say it i do think there've been all flawed people now gravity story and i think it's very i think and enriches our understanding of who jesus was just really appreciate the fact that parents start says he's frightened that by what these wiseman tell my goal it passes on to son and sunglasses on the son he's out there somewhere be where again and then

they're you know then the new deal is this dramatic scene midway has made with his reputation is growing he has a following there are those who consider it blasphemous and who despise him and that's a death sentence leslie and in those days says so now he is coming into town from one direction and a proper interview you get is going to follow is coming in such an ascendant and endo your descriptions of power for the first time give mayoral sense and he just don't want any trouble and the jews

what's to come in there and he took it back and will see what's common them until he should know how and when he got this trouble coming into laos on accounts right ann let's talk for a moment about this business of running into downward dog you know it's hard for people who have heard the stories that fly and yes yes yes this day they are we often don't approach and just the stories of the games the old testament symbolism them into a well and then sometimes hard time believing that maybe jesus scripted something because romans were coming in the other side but jesus comes down i'm out of olives figs on the same day it not at the same time the punches pilot is leaving for potentially thousands of troops and the other side of the city something that happened every year on the first day of the feast and it was matt ceremonial it on air in the face that was going on of the jews but it was also meant to say we know they're under twenty five thousand of you in the city don't the roman don't write calm down because

we're in strength well but it's also a declaration of a greater god the roman emperor was considered be a goddess was a religious state archives greater than yours or jesus takes that day that moment to come down the hill on a donkey these knees mimicking or our mining people of solomon having written to his coronation on a donkey comes down the hill on a donkey he prophesied sweeps over the city people hail him he comes into the city the ghost of the temple well this is obviously a scripted counter demonstration he's making a statement on one side of the city the greatest military in the world and the god who ruled most of the world humanly speaking is being civilized and roman troops there comes jesus and his big or little donkey down the city on this rock caf and he's saying another kingdom is present but it's not a kingdom like king injuries to its not military it's not naturally powerful as an invisible kingdom and halfway down by the way rather than saying i'm going to take over jerusalem and be powerful because i rule from here he prophesied the destruction of jerusalem so it's the complete opposite of what the romans are doing on the other side of the city and i think that's why we have the palm sunday event that we'd

do well to remember that scene of the counter demonstration against the second of our growth as are you look around and i think on the three truth is it seems to me that a defining moment may be the defining moment let loose in the garden and it seems to me the defining moment is when he just raises a hill but the most challenging and what we tend to think is that he's mad because they're not praying or they're not being religious in some way the fact is that a perfectly acceptable trade are actually commanded of the old testament that the people can come from a distance and trade into the temple coin or by the doves that i had to carry you hated dolls from a distance all that apple app around the temple but in a kind of a

racist way the other jewish leaders have allowed this trade to move into the court of the gentiles which was the only place the gentiles had to cry so when jesus saw this and by the way he did this at the beginning of his ministry and at the end he went in there and he began to run them out of the courts and he was saying we always got my father's how shall be a house of prayer but that's not the quote the quote is my father's house where house of prayer for all nations so that's what he's mad about is that the gentiles are forced to pray in the streets while the money changers are doing business and that's legitimate but it's been put in a callous way right there in the court of the gentile then when it goes it poses a very real threat yes to the priest who are using this these money changers to their own power and their own enrichment i like to say there's a sopranos kind of family a freshly family running the template that moment this is certainly not to say that all jews at the time were corrupt were the mass of people weren't faithful the whole anti semitic things coming out of the crustacean jesus's been of course used to great

horror throughout history as alive but there was a corrupt family leader temple trade for its own profit and they have been for quite some time jesus was aware of it of course is that allowed priests yes who has how awful yes and the other they are doubly powerful and five of his sons will be pried praise their area and they are going to get through this and they feel before it yes yes jesus have the following clearly there's adulation form on your land he now has made and it is a family real rabble rouser and they rouse the rabble and they use of the fact the romans watching i might be offended by this popular rubble so you get two things he might be the crowd uprising and bring the wrath of rome down that is also costing us money and that's the something that's going on is very well portrayed in josephus assad other historians so early ganges the dodgers

loses temper in the simple chords he striking at a specific criminal stronghold at the heart of the faith that was just as jonathan falcon receive men feel about but his book killing jesus it's a it's a great drama it's a great drama how much how much research beyond the scriptures i mean it was they are but we don't understand that the story is told outside the script for those were never exposed to that and i think we're poor for not knowing that it also sets us up to believe what some folks will arise sang the new ideas for example that the total storage uses a metal they didn't have the new testament we'd still have the words of josephus we'd still have the words of tacit us we'd still have the words of the sand heater in themselves and others that confirming these are all running in a pretty close to the time of jesus there was a leader of the jews whose name was squeezed us in on the roman word for him and he did leave another leading uprising and he did

he was fielding crucified under about is a real figure you all the way all this is that we would know it already and that's you know my book is not written to be evangelist is not meant primarily to today but it is meant to say even to non christians nonbelievers at least take the story seriously as a historical event it is well substantiated it is it is it will confirm even by the enemies of the faith at the time and it's a story we ought to know it takes there's another thing you miss i said i miss him removed her truth is this theme all of long conspiracy to kill yassin that exists from the birth yes yes and n n n occurs and writers and readers and as you say in the book he knows he's on the threat

rizzo line feels he's on the basis of his teaching it into your standup your teacher will say so if all this is true why are you trying to kill me and they say we're crazy where we're not trying to kill you but he says a two or three times so in between between the events that actually happened for example a hometown crowd trying to throw him off a cliff the factory's customers saying that there is a conspiracy the fact that we have a record of the gospels that the center of the wood you know the first season set is use would meet together to see how they might kill and that theme is repeated so many times before we even get to the final week of his life but it's obvious that there were conspiracies that we were two years there the day literally says they're waiting for the opportune mo meant to kill him that's a conspiracy to people waiting to kill somebody that's a conspiracy to make that answer was no question he was under conspiracy almost every day of his life and so finally they may live with this charge of conspiracy i'm interested in your portrayal of olive

oil he got on a touch he really doesnt longing for that and i understood that restrictions but i think i understand him better now you know he was open the subtle and forth to vacation and he really doesn't want to do what they wanted to do and it's interesting to me is as you know we can reduce all those most punishment and the buffalo first time it's not like going to the citizens of the calls you get the feeling that that blessing cut to the bone and really was able to use the word recount your ear here you get a real sense of just what they were to sell tissues because it's it's it's not blaming anyone any passed a servant not telling the story in its grip on an easter sunday morning it's not the kind of thing you could describe fully but i can here just for a moment the romans didn't just lash you like the

british david as we see him you don't the bounty for example they had multiple chords with rocks and sheep bone soul into them and the idea was not to last or eat the skin it was to reflection away so so josephus describes to us a man who actually survived this because it was meant to be a punishment of its own not connected to crucifixion initially and jessica says the man's organs and rich could be seen in it for the rest of his life he lived for many years but he is skin have been pulled away so they kept patches on it but when it's pulled away his organs were explosive had the scorching had rich great amounts of fletcher why it's this is described in the old testament of weekly think that is being prophetic i can count all my bones things like that so the scorching was absolutely horrible and candidate says he was horrible to look upon people wept just for the sisters' message and the reason was it hits its though i don't mean to be overly graphic you had taken a garden tool and just ripped away flesh that's what it was meant to do so people can see already as they can see rims vacancy strings of flushing and this is not just a whipping this is a scorching

and that's how the crustacean process starts and pollack thinks so socially anybody they're just all stirred up by punish this man and grotesque ways a dull believe a loan and of course they're being stirred up by those who are really wants to dismantle it that's an increase of introspection is a whole other level of all poor people think that obviously because they see the man hanging on the cross that just being exposed and having the males in the wrists and the feet is enough about that wasn't really the story of disaffection within the romans were very hard to affect us over the centuries and they had learned that when you hung from the race and then the males in your wrists and you your body rested on those holes your forensic cavity paralyze you couldn't breathe you could breathe in which could break out much in the panic about so now you must push down and they'll hold the nail on your feet and push up and get enough air to do to survive and then you get to that rely on because you we continue saying so one of the things that makes this very dramatic as when you think of all the statements jesus made from the

cross and there's a famous seven of them he made just at the top oh what kind of a strain to get it will air and say about the way i'm saying it now and then he would sit down and they would think he was going to die and it would come back up you know and speak to john about mary and then he would say so that when you understand the suffocating although six hours and everything on everything he says is too strained brett as barely able to breathe or bank takes on another whole nother level of torture and horror of their mind what is back already looked like before he was nailed to cross because of the scorching so it's a horrible terrible thing that happened it wasn't just a man being whipped and then being exposed for six hours until they died in the writing of it and johnson and before you've again the ball and you understand just how punishing just how brutal a confusion for violence the word you know they have a level of impact on the isolated academically i had read a lot about it but as i say at the beginning of the book i usually write in an

office that's you know leather furniture letter has some color green walls typical bright colors liberal unworkable over and so you win an industry i i could not tell the story and comfort and i ended up writing it on the streets of jerusalem and streets of new york and i lived half my year in dc sorrow at union station where people are rushing around it i had to be out of the crowd because it felt like a kind of story so what that says to me as i sat down to write the usual sort of retelling of the story in my usual way it began impacting the day in a way that just drove me out into the street so i wrote almost every word in public out the open with thyme or one time i was riding in central park in new york and a homeless man is not a live not quite there we watch all that i was writing something he began to protect me from the swirls and so i'm writing the story jesus while amanda's monthly office protecting me from the squirrels don't distract and i just thought it's a sweep this is what jesus encounter history is there's a lot of places to do jealous about it on i have to say that

lesson you hear is we talk about lincoln and lincoln's transition moment not true the two second and all regions of prayer and now to the juices run a time you got another book and works all reading i'm always writing more pleasant roz should i'm writing a book right now on the kurds on fast they with their history and faster with who they were and his davinci history and their struggle now and not a lot of them although with them both in the middle east an international so i'm trying to make that understandable to americans particularly in told a moving story they're afraid they buy we consider themselves the ancient mead's so they fit this theme of your biblical themes and so on so far working well i when a bigger worrier than i expected them to be and i think if you come in today and i think all of you for watching and dancing in the lone

forward on words you must keep reading cary fowler yes