Smith & Muse

[Harry Smith - Host 1] "House of Flowers." [Reynelda Muse - Host 2] "Hurry Sundown." [Smith] "Porgy and Bess." [Muse] "Julia." [Smith] "Claudine." [Muse] A song stylist extraordinaire and consummate performer. [Smith] Tonight's Smith & Muse special guest is more than a sultry star or one of the world's ten most beautiful women. [Muse] She is a person to be accepted and respected for facing the joys and pains of her life with honest conviction and [Smith] no strings. [Muse] Miss Diahann Carroll. [Smith] This is really neat because I'm personally just very happy to meet you

and get a chance to talk to you. I think Rey and I are both really excited about it. We have lots of stuff to talk about in this half hour, and I thought a good place to start might be with something that I think everybody can relate to easily, and that was you as "Julia," which I love that show so much. And I'm not, you know, this isn't patronizing, I watched it religiously. And there just seemed to be an awful lot of love in that show. [Carroll, Diahann] Yes, and also I'm very proud of "Julia." I'd like to say that because I was attacked a great deal about my participation in "Julia." I'm very proud of it for many reasons. One, I believe that "Julia" really was a forerunner for what it is that we are, be it bad or good, that we are looking at today. The primary contribution, I feel, is that "Julia" presented for the first time in the history of television, a television show that

starred a black actor, and I had to fight for that, and I was very proud that I got it. Also it represented the first time that a black family went into the homes of Americans on a weekly basis and found a kind of comfortable acceptance, no matter on what level, and we could probably examine that for a week and a half. But it did establish that premise, and I was very pleased about that. [Muse] A lot of the critics, though, said that, of course, that it portrayed... perpetuated the matriarchal myths. [Carroll] Yes. [Muse] Here you were, a mother with a son, no husband. [Carroll] And they were absolutely correct. The interesting thing is that every television show that was on the air at that time, and for many years prior to that, depicted exactly the same set of circumstances. The problem I find is that whenever a person of darkish hue is involved in a television show or a motion picture,

it all of a sudden becomes a documentary. "Julia" was not a documentary; it was a half-hour sitcom. That's all it was. It wasn't meant to be anything else. And the popular...the platform that seemed to be the most acceptable at that time was single woman, struggling alone, finding her way in the new area of the working world. And Marlo Thomas, even the redhead, um... that had been forever, Lucille Ball, had come back with a show without a man; there were two women working. And I could go on and on and on, but the only show that I really recall being attacked in that manner was "Julia." [Muse] You said you fought hard for that show. Did you have much input into the script; were you able to make script changes if there was something that you felt did not ring true; this is not the black experience; this is not a black woman?

[Carroll] Let me answer that in two parts. First of all, "Julia" was brought to me. I had nothing to do with the creation of "Julia." I only fought for the starring billing because I felt it was very important. I felt we were going to go on forever saying, "Such and Such" show with, rather than, Diahann Carroll starring in. And that was something that it seemed the studio did not want to give me, and it seemed to me, the more they felt they should not, that it was something that I should insist upon. So we broke that, clearly. The other part of it is, as far as the black experience is concerned in "Julia," there is a segment of the black community that is very like "Julia," whether we identify with it ourselves, whether it's a part of our lives or not. I found that the most vocal objections came from the segment of the community that is not like "Julia." I suppose that's to be expected, too. Yes, it was valid. There were many things that were television-valid, not

necessarily valid to what life is really all about. But in terms of what the television families of that period were doing, that's what we were doing. [Smith] Can we go way, way, way, way, way back? [Carroll] Wait a minute now. [Smith] What? [laughter] [Carroll] Let's not, let's take one of those "way backs," let's take that back. [Smith] How about, it just seems like such a short while ago. [Carroll] Okay. [Smith] I was doing my homework. If I got this right, you were 19 years old when you had your first starring role on Broadway. [Carroll] Let me count now, that was... [Smith] 1954, "House of Flowers." Well, how old would that make me today? Well, I well... [laughter] [Carroll] I can't decide if I'm going to answer that honestly until you tell me how old I'd be. I was very young. [Smith] Just a kid. [Carroll] Yes. [Smith] The thing that I guess really impressed me was at that point - you're 19 years old, you're just a girl from the Bronx, well more than just a girl, obviously, because of your talent. But Richard Rodgers, at that point, wants to write a musical

for you. How was that for you to relate as, really, as a kid? [Carroll] Now, are we talking about "No Strings"? [Smith] Well, I was just doing my homework, and it said, "House of Flowers" in '54, and it said at that point that Richard Rodgers saw you and he said, "I want to write a musical for this person." [Carroll] Well, yeah, I suppose that's true. "House of Flowers." I graduated from high school in '53. I would imagine I was on Broadway the end of '54, '55. So, yes, I was very young. When I went into "House of Flowers," I had the kind of background, I had annoyed my parents all of my life with the fact that I really was going to be in show business, promised them of course that I would finish college first, never did. I went through my first year at NYU, and all of my professors were very kind because they said, "We feel sorry for you. You fall asleep in class." I was modeling and I was also studying voice. I was studying

drama, dance, piano. I was serious, that's what it is. Most of the kids that write to me and they ask me what can they do. And my response is always the same, you do everything, you do everything you think you can do. Don't leave any stone unturned. So they were kind enough to give me all incompletes. I was a psych major and I loved it. It's interesting because my daughter was a psych major, until a few weeks ago; she's not quite sure now. But when I went into the show, it was a Truman Capote Show. The music was by Harold Arlen, and it was directed by Peter Brook, choreographed by George Balanchine, assisted by Herbert Ross. I'm telling you all this to tell you that it was the most incredible experience, the kind of education I would wish for any young person to have as their initial experience in this business. But Richard Rodgers did decide, at that time, that I should do a show. It was

many years later that it became a reality. But it is a flattering thing to think about because, you're right, I was a baby. [Smith] That's the real question was your reaction at that this point. I'm picking up that you always wanted to be in the theater or on stage or in show business. [Carroll] Mm-hmm. [Smith] Yet at the same time, to be that young and to have someone of that stature within the show business climate who said I want to do a show for you. [Carroll] Well, it was said, it was really said, I didn't know about it until several years later. He was impressed with the show, and I began to do something called "The Tonight Show," very often. A man whose name is Jack Paar. I told Johnny Carson the other night, he said, "God, you've been with us a long time!" I said, "Johnny, I've been here longer than you. I've done "The Tonight Show" since Jack Paar. And when I was doing that show, I did it quite regularly with two other youngsters, Steve Lawrence and Eydie Gorme. And the following

day, after I'd done a piece of work that I had worked on for a long time, I received a phone call... It was very early, and I had done the show and rehearsed until late. And I was told that Richard Rodgers was on the phone and he wanted to speak to me. And I knew it was a buddy of mine pulling a gag, so I said, "Listen, you just tell Richard Rogers that Helen Twelvetrees is asleep. And later, I realized that it was Richard Rodgers. I returned the call, and that's when he explained to me that he wanted to see me because he felt that I should star in a Broadway show. And that was [pause] there is no way to explain to you how I felt hearing those words and hearing them from that particular incredible legend. [Muse] Was that a turning point in your career, "No Strings"? [Carroll] Yes, it was. It really was. And again... [Muse] In what sense? Were you credible now? I mean... [Carroll] Yes. [Muse] Credibility. [Carroll] That was very important, and with this kind of company, with Richard Rodgers, there could be no one who demanded more

respect, who had a greater track record. And as I say, for a legend to approach you and say that I want to do something for you. I think, yes, that gave me the kind of credibility that not only did I enjoy, but I didn't realize it was going to propel me on to so many other things as well. The initial meeting with Mr. Rodgers was also something that, I say once again to young people who are watching, you must do everything, because I had involved myself in modeling and... [Muse] As I read it, I read an account of that meeting, he asked you what you wanted to do with role, did he not? [Carroll] He did. I arrived dressed from head to toe in Givenchy. I was terribly chic that day. I said,"Listen, let's go the entire route." And when I walked in, he said, "This is what I want to see on stage." And I couldn't have been more thrilled because I said to him, "If I read another script about a

little native girl, I'm going to kill myself because I don't have that innate relating to the little native girl. I was born and raised in New York City. I am a cosmopolitan human being. [Muse] Were you playing yourself in "No Strings"? [Carroll] Very much so. I was and I think that's one of the reasons I loved it so much is because he did, "Yes, what would you like to do?" And I said, "First of all, I want to have a kind of elegance. I would like to have a kind of dignity. I don't want to be someone that runs around with no shoes on in a sarong with everyone going, "Oh, isn't she darling?" No, I would like to approach the audience from this point of view, rather than constantly having a black actress approach the audience from this point of view. I want to be the one that is in control. I'd like to be the one that has the situation in control at the outset. When it begins, I'd like to have that as my entrée to the audience and see how it works. And you may [cut off, as is the video, for 10 seconds] ...apologize for that, I would have to apologize for my entire life. I would have to apologize for my

mother and father. I'd have to apologize for my entire existence. My mother's whole entire thrust, all my life was, "You are the best. You will operate as the best. You will do the best. You will go to the best schools. You will have the best. You are the best. Don't let anyone ever let you think anything else." My mother told me when I was about 6 or 8 years old. "If you want to be the President of the United States, that's what your father and I here for. You let us know, and you do it." So my middle-class experience is true. It's not something that, I mean, what am I going to do with this kind of training? That's what she gave me. [Muse] Are you still vulnerable to the criticism that you get from people who say this is not valid, or can you say, "I am," with conviction now and it doesn't matter? Does it still hurt? [Carroll] No. [Muse] To be criticized. [Carroll] I would love to tell you that it does, but there are too many me's. You're a me. I see me's everywhere I go. I think the thing that I respond to is

I'm annoyed that the desire to hold on to the old stereotype, because it is easier for the white community and it makes them more, quote, comfortable, unquote, to have a role that they feel you are supposed to play, that you are supposed to be. I become annoyed when I see that they're having difficulty adjusting. I have to adjust to different personalities constantly. Don't look up, see me coming into the room and because you see the color of my skin, think you know who and what I am. You don't. You have to take the time, just like I have a had to learn to take the time to feel that all blonds are not the same, with blue eyes, a girl with big [makes referencial noise] [laughter] She may be a very bright girl. [laughter] And I think we can't have those stereotypes, and I no, they don't bother me. As a matter of fact, I think I would worry if the criticism stopped at this moment, and I'm in the process of creating another me. [Muse] Who is that? [Carroll] My daughter. And I see all sorts of me's when I visit her at school or when she comes home and

she brings... So I don't believe that there is anything that unusual about me. I won't allow anyone to tell me that that is not true. [Smith] But you, what one of the big magazines just said within the last couple months, one of the 10 most beautiful women in the world. [Carroll] Oh! I... [Smith] Right? [Carroll] Uh-huh. [Smith] Has that created problems for you? I mean, do you realize how striking you are? Are you aware of your own beauty and the impact that must have on just people as they perceive you? [Carroll] Once again, I find that being attractive is nice. It's no more than that. If I'm dealing with someone and that's their primary concern, then my judgment about that person is, "Okay, if that's all there is, that's all they can see." And maybe this is not the place for me to be. I'm not knocking it. I like the fact that I have nice teeth and I put a pair of eyelashes on, and my eyes are interesting. But

no, it's not my primary concern? [Muse] But is it is it a burden? Can you go out and just put on your blue jeans and your grungies, go to the store and not feel the burden of having to look, at all times, like one of the 10 most beautiful women in the world? [Carroll] Absolutely. [Muse] Is it possible just to be Diahann? [Carroll] Absolutely. that is completely up to me. I just had a three-week vacation, and I hate to tell you what I looked like for three weeks, and I enjoyed every moment of it. Very seldom did someone look under that big straw hat with those funny-looking glasses, with no make up and say, "You look ... are you?" [Muse] But you're incognito essentially. [Carroll] Oh, that's true. [Muse] That's different. [Carroll] That is true. Now, from that point of view, I have had to make an adjustment, yes. But my jeans and my marching up and down the streets of San Francisco, without being bothered, yeah, I can accomplish that. [Muse] I'd like to get back to your daughter for a moment. You had your daughter when you were still very young in show business. You have always had to deal with being the working mother and combining

career. How did you do that? Did your daughter travel with you? Did you have a trusted nurse? Did you have someone in the family who took care of your daughter while you were on the road and met the demands of your career? How did you accomplish that? You're very close. [Carroll] Yes, we are. And actually it's all of the above. You have to have a family that cares, and in order to have the kind of individual that I'm very pleased to say that I have. She's very secure, very happy girl, young woman, excuse me. And in the beginning, it was easy because when they're babies, you have a nurse, you have a tutor, you get on the road and they're adorable and oh! it's fun. Also, most of the areas that I worked were resort areas, which is great for kids. It's swimming lessons and all kinds of advantages. Then the decision comes. It's not fair to constantly tear this child away from her friends and her family.

[Muse] Did you encounter much guilt? So many working mothers today talk about the guilt they feel. I work in Atlanta three days a week, and I say I'm immune to it. But every once in a while, the little four-year-old can grab me by the knees and say, "Don't go to Atlanta." And I feel it. Did you feel it? [Carroll] Yes, I did. I felt it very often. I thought we were doing... I kind of lied to myself for a while, that it was really smooth sailing. That's not true. I came home ... no, I was leaving and Suzanne came in one day from school. At that time, the thing that was adorable about her was that she was not only bilingual, but she lisped. So everything was French and English with this lisp in it. And it was, and she looked at me and she said, "Bonjour, maman," and I said, "Bonjour." And she looked at the luggage and she just threw all her books. And she said, "I HATE luggage! I HATE luggage!" And she had never really expressed how she felt about this coming and

going. And I didn't know what to do. I had a commitment and I had to leave. And she was so little and she was so vulnerable. And I'd covered all the bases that I possibly could. She had a wonderful nurse, and her grandmother and her grandfather were marvelous. But I was the thing she wanted, and I wanted her. And I left. I left, I went to my job, but as I was pulling away, and I saw this little thing in her nurse's arms, waving goodbye, everyone was crying, I thought, "This can't continue." That had a great deal to do with my accepting "Julia" because I wanted to be in one place. [Muse] You were more in control of your career. [Carroll] Right. And when I came home, and she became accustomed to me in a very short period of time. She'd run in the house, "Hi," wanted no part of me. She was

very involved with her friends. But we did have a long period there of a more, let's say, normal... you know, I'm not sure what normal is, but a more normal lifestyle. I was there for her. In show business, though, you really can't win because I went to work before she went to school in the morning. So I would have to wake her up very early, so that we could have our breakfast together, and she didn't like that at all. That didn't please her at all. [Muse] What about control in your life? Do you really have control of your career? People say, not about you, but about anyone in the entertainment business, that there's always an entourage of people whose jobs depend on you and you're working. Do you, can you turn down engagements? How much control do you have in terms of... [Carroll] Well, I have much more now than I had a few years ago, and I suppose that's one of the pluses of longevity. I've been around for a long time, picking and

choosing is one of the pluses that comes with having been around. The fact that there are lots of people who depend on you for their livelihood is sometimes not very comforting. I wouldn't say, "Oh, I'd really love to go to Majorca and just sit there on the beach for a year, and find out who I am and why did I spend my life this way. Why am I not married with four or five kids living in the suburbs?" You can't do that. You just can't do that. I can take a period of time, three weeks is the longest period I've taken in several years. [Smith] You were talking about your daughter and the problems of being as big a star as you are. One of the other things that comes with that territory is we all get out a People Magazine, and whatever other things you pick up on the way out of the grocery store. Your love life has been lived in public to greater or lesser degrees over the years, with Sidney Poitier, and David

Frost, and you alluded a couple of minutes ago to having the four or five kids and the picket fence. Is there a point right now, can you say "Gee I wish I would have just lived in the suburbs and done that." instead of had all this life in the fast lane thing that you've gone through? [Carroll] Actually, it really isn't a life in the fast lane. I think one of the reasons it has that flavor is because when you are in show business, there are very few things that you do that people don't want to write about. But my dentist and my gynecologist and my gardener have lived -- their lives are just as interesting as mine. They've been married, I think my dentist has been married more often than I. [laughter] But you didn't read about it in People Magazine, so it gets this very racy quality and ... [Smith] Did you have a problem with that? I mean, over the years, did you constantly see yourself or have your private life seen in public like that?

[Carroll] Yes. Yes, I'm a private person. I didn't know it. I didn't realize it until a few years ago. And then there was a period when I was younger and I enjoyed it for a moment, until you found out that you can't control it. It controls you. Then when I realized I didn't want that anymore, I stopped. There are things you can do. All the premieres I used to attend, I was, oh! very well dressed, coiffed and so and so. I don't do that anymore. If you want to stay at home, if you want to keep yourself out of People Magazine... if you want to, then stay at home. I have a much larger at-home social life now. My friends with small dinner parties more. And I socialize practically not at all in Hollywood or in New York. So, there is no knowledge of, for example, who I'm dating at the moment. And I

like it that way. [Smith] You don't want to tell us. [Carroll] Nah, I'll tell ya'. His name is John Doe. [laughter] But I enjoyed it. Listen, it was interesting. It just depends on if you want to spend your life doing that. No, I didn't want to spend my life doing that. I like this. I like this part of my life. I do. I'm clearer about what I want, where I want to spend my time, who are the people I enjoy, Who are the people I can trust. My time is not manipulated the way it used to be by studios and networks. [Smith] The undercurrent is, though, that it wasn't necessarily an easy road for you to get to where you are in terms of knowing yourself as well as you do. [Carroll] Absolutely not. I'm very open about the fact that I spend years on the sofa, and recommend it highly if you have any confusions about yourself. And

I don't believe in the point of view that one should be embarrassed or ashamed. I think you should be embarrassed or ashamed if you feel that you need help and you don't seek it. And I think you're just a dodo. But... [Muse] Diahann, you said after your husband's death that you were going to spend a lot of time getting to know this Carol Johnson who became Diahann Carroll. What have you discovered in the past three years? [Carroll] Well, pretty much what I was telling you, that I was living a life that I hadn't really... I hadn't allowed the life to evolve. I had allowed the life to be inflicted. And my lifestyle of traveling, working as hard and as often as I do is something that I enjoy. And I don't apologize for it any more. The need, the enormous need, and I saw a television show that the two of you did recently. And I was very impressed with the young woman who asked young women today to please give more time and

thought to what it is you need in a partner. You did a show about the battered woman. And I think the pressure of: You must be married. You must be married or there's something wrong with you. You must be married or you're not whole. You must be married or what is it that you're all about? This terrible undercurrent of there's something wrong with a woman who doesn't want to be married or who maybe is not really marriage material. I'm a fabulous parent. And I would have absolutely no objections to having a child again, particularly if I were lucky enough to select a wonderful father, the way I had that good fortune the first time. I don't necessarily feel that I have to be married to that man. But I do believe it would be my choice. And I am responsible for that choice as to whether we have something in common, and whether we satisfy each other's needs, making each other comfortable. See, I was always denying the fact that it's not

easy to live comfortably with a woman who lives my life. [Muse] That being alone does not mean being lonely. You're not lonely. I don't get the sense that you're lonely. [Carroll] I'm not lonely. I was lonely, and I think that's why I was constantly trying to be married. I'm not lonely. There's too much out there to be lonely. I don't look forward constantly to going into that house and just having the housekeeper and saying, "Good evening" and crawling into bed and reading or what. No, no I believe that people should be with people. [Muse] But you're happy with your life now? [Carroll] I'm happy with my life, and I'm also happy with the fact that I've finally come to the conclusion that I don't have to make any apologies to anybody about anything. [Smith] Terrific. [Muse] Terrific and a beautiful way to end it. [Smith] We have to scoot. I'm sorry. [Carroll] Thank you for having me; I have enjoyed it. [Smith] We need two more hours. [Carroll] Yes. But we'll do that. [Muse] Thank you for coming. Time is everything and you were very generous with you time. [Carroll] It was my pleasure. Thank you. Good luck to both of you. [Smith] Thank you. [Muse] Thank you. Join us next week for Smith & Muse.