News Addition; 806; Special Episode

News edition is made possible in part by the members of Channel 13 and by the Peter W. Baldwin program fund it does appear to me that we are in the early beginning stages maybe of getting someone's attention and I truly believe that there may there may well be married in that and will continue to pursue that but also in order for us to spend the time that it's going to take in the next phase of this we need an expression from the community. If you're willing for the effort to continue and if you to the point that we'd ask the state legislature

and our city council to give us permission to vote on this issue I'm going to ask you to stand up. That was the scene last week at Cliff Temple Baptist Church as Oak Cliff residents voted to continue the process toward dis annexation from Dallas. Hello and welcome to this special one hour news edition on Oak Cliff Texas on Bob Ray Sanders. In just a few moments we'll talk with six Dallas leaders including those who are in the forefront of the dis annexation movement about the real possibility of Oak Cliff residents voting to officially create their own separate city but first some history of Oak Cliff and some background on how the dis annexation movement began and this special report produced by Mark Bernbaum. From the very beginning of what is now Oak Cliff there were those who understood there had to

be bridges across the untamed and often unruly Trinity River. People on both sides while feeling a pride and an independence for their own pioneer settlements felt a need to connect. Now there are many bridges spanning the levees which most times keep the Trinity under control but today the people to the south and the people to the west of the river the people of Oak Cliff feel disconnected they even feel abandoned by those especially in government who reside north of the river. We are not getting our finisher from Dallas we cannot be anywhere so far. On the east side of the Trinity and north the upper guide what democracy is about. We need to get Dallas attention there's an old farmer's story about getting the mural and they had with a two before and we get him about three times just to get his attention. Those feelings are so strong now that there is an aggressive movement by the people of Oak Cliff to formalize their separation from Dallas and take control of their own destiny. Oak Cliff has been treated

as a cash cow from Dallas. It would become the seventh largest city in Texas it would become the 27th largest city in the United States. It's like the imputation of a part of a body. I never laughed I never laughed but I couldn't believe that people could be serious about doing that. It was 100 years ago 1890 that the people of Oak Cliff first voted to create their own separate city. A legal suit however a challenge that Oak Cliff's 10 mile boundary was too big and a judge ruled to dissolve the new city of Oak Cliff five months later but another election would be held in June 1891 recreating the city of Oak Cliff this time encompassing only three and a half miles. This new city often referred to as the Brooklyn or Cambridge of the South had actually begun in 1840 as new settlers arrived from Tennessee. They built homes and tried to scrape out a living on the southwest side of the river while John Neely Bryan the father of Dallas tried his hand at commerce

north of the river while there was a co-dependence when the Trinity with Stainless Banks in a Loweit Oak Cliff and Dallas have always been separate. Dallas was clearly becoming a business center while Oak Cliff developed as a residential and farming town by nature the two competed to provide access across the river to provide quality living including larger states for the well to do to have the best schools initially it appeared that it was Oak Cliff was took the lead in those areas. Thomas Marcellus the man who named Oak Cliff brought major development to the area in the late 1880s but economic hard times forced Oak Cliff to unite with the city across the river. This is man John Zhang led the movement and in 1903 Oak Cliff voted to be annexed by Dallas the measure passed by only 18 votes though officially a part of Dallas Oak Cliff would maintain his own identity. Its residents would long recall a time when their community had better streets

than the city north of the river had bigger and fancier homes rail cars from New York, a women's college and opera house a grand hotel and even tastier water from his artesian wells. But the people in Dallas most often remember Oak Cliff as the home of the first 711 store. Dallas is only professional baseball stadium and the home of Lee Harvey Oswald, Jack Ruby and the Texas Theater where Oswald was captured and of course the final resting place for gangster Clyde Barrow. There is a movement of foot to have the part of Dallas known as Oak Cliff secede or d annex from Dallas proper. That movement has picked up steam in recent weeks. The thought of Oak Cliff becoming a separate city is the topic of much conversation as evidenced by this radio talk show. The secession issue that we're talking about now is really nothing

new I think a lot of people in Oak Cliff are surprised that it's gone this far but why is it happened now? Why is it in third year right now? Well I think first of all it's a moment in time you know why did different things happen in the Soviet Union? Why did things happen in Germany? And some people laugh but the fact of the matter is in life and history we know there's a segment of time and I think we were able to find a leadership base and a volunteer base to pursue it and quite honestly I think we found the moment in time where Dallas is remorse in this leadership and doesn't have the wherewithal to the stymie this effort. Gus Hudson came to Dallas 20 years ago and married a woman born and reared in Oak Cliff. He and his wife now own two of the most popular eating spots in town. I have customers call me every day on the phone and they say I live in Dallas. How do I get over there? As far as people in North Dallas are concerned Oak Cliff is a separate entity by itself. They don't believe that Oak Cliff is part of Dallas. I've talked to a lot of my

neighbors. The people that come in here they're all talking the same way they want to. I wonder if they've looked at the tax base and I question how we can pay the off the bond in dead in this. Judge B. Fight is a fifth generation resident of Southwest Dallas and he still has questions about the idea to disannex. What can we expect for water supply? Where we're going to dispose of our waste? Who's going to how much of the tax is going to be? What's going to be the composition of our political body? We're going to have city council government or we're going to have awards. How are you going to want Oak Cliff? But while he continues to ask questions, if the election were held today, see if it comes to a vote today as to whether or not Oak Cliff should disannex from Dallas, I would vote for it. I think that most people are really deadly serious about

hitting out. Out. That's what many people in Oak Cliff want. They want out of a city that returns only 20 cents to their area of every tax dollar collected. Out of a city that locates 80% of all public housing, south and west of the river. Out of a city that seems to ignore one-third of its population when it comes to parks, streets and other city services. But to separate from Dallas, Cliff writes needed answers to a lot of questions. Here we come into the biggest question of all. Is what's the best way to tackle property plant equipment? We should assume as each of those committees, like for example the quality of life committee are doing an inventory of all the libraries and safety committees doing an assessment of where all the fire stations are and the police stations are because we will take those over. I guess the question I've got in my mind is the way they keep the data down to the city of Dallas is it going to be easier for one person or one group

to go in there and gather it for everybody. As the disinexation fever spreads, more than 130 citizens served on 19 committees to seriously study the impact of becoming a separate city. For instance, the fact that 80% of all unlighted freeways happen to be on this side of the river. These are not coincidences. I mean nobody's really doing it on purpose but they have more political power over there. Oh yeah, this is not by accident. We're talking about a philosophy that has been going on in this city for some 40-50 years. So we have become as a city of second class citizens and this is not by accident. This is by design. If we weren't doing this unless somebody had asked for this the city would have never told it and if nobody had asked for where where are most of the unlighted freeways. If we had to ask for that we wouldn't know how bad. I mean I'm saying the more we ask for, every time we ask for a figure, it's it's it's a mind-boggling thing. The committees looked at everything from bonds, public works, and transportation to city

charter, city services, and city limits. The stickiest issue of all and the one that may cause Dallas at some point to come out fighting is the boundary lines for the proposed new city of Ocliff. If you're listening to the media they don't know where Ocliff is and if you're listening to the people who live here it probably follows more or less the Trinity all the way around. The Trinity River is thought to be the natural boundary for Ocliff and this is a look at the city of Dallas today and the river's natural course or is it really the unnatural course of the river. The Trinity has been channelized, re-rooted if you will. It's original and natural course coincides with what is now the Stimman's expressway and the organizers of the dis annexation movement place Ocliff's boundaries as everything south of the Stimman's corridor. If that is a case then a lot of businesses and a lot of tax dollars that no one really thought of would actually go

to the new city of Ocliff. If Stimman's and not the river is the boundary then the Lowe's Anatol Hotel would be in Ocliff as would Dallas's new courthouse. The Committee on Finance and Budget has concluded that Ocliff Texas would have a tax space of $8 billion generating about $146 million in annual tax revenue. There was a snicker heard around Dallas when it was first mentioned that some Ocliff fights were talking secession from the city but the laughter died down it became more apparent that the people south of the river were angry and they were very serious about dis annexation. More than 800 people showed up at the first community meeting held in a predominantly black Baptist church. This idea is captivating to me for the simple reason that all of the things

are wrong with the city. We had the opportunity to change right here in this room. This isn't the good old boys I'm looking at here. We can start fresh and I think with that we can really make a difference. We can put together a city that we can really be proud of and we don't need to worry about money so much because you know we only have a bug it's our bug not 40 cents and we get back. Can you imagine with all our different agendas that we have hidden agendas what have you we've come now to put all of the genders aside all of us and work for what is best for old clear and that is what is best for Dallas overall what we are doing here. Right will out water will seek its level. When people finally reach more to where their quality

life is so impact and then they cannot find a proper reverse within their residence system and if it doesn't work on it then they have a right to very often available to them. And the really only two decisions to be made if we answer these questions honestly and objectively from a distance then the answer becomes pretty obvious what we have to do. One will our decision whatever that decision is improve our quality of life and two can we financially support yourself. Bob McEllerney, president of the Oakcliffe Chamber of Commerce has spearheaded this movement. Also in the forefront is Dallas City Councilman Dr. Charles Tandy. The discommunity is worth taking care of, worth fighting for, worth doing the things that we can do to help make it a livable place. State representatives Steve Williams will sponsor the bill in the legislature which if passed would give Oakcliffe citizens the right to disannex.

We put together a bill that would permit Oakcliffe to disassociate itself from the city of Dallas as a legal entity but different than the way Korky is talking about where you go through a city ordinance that requires the vote of the entire city this would permit only the vote of those people that want to be deannexed. So the vote would be a majority of those people in this area. Now I think it is accurate that the city of Dallas would generally use its influence to have other members of the Dallas delegation oppose this bill but politically it would be very very difficult for Dallas to try to hold Oakcliffe hostage to sell food. This meeting was so successful that the leaders decided to take their show on the road. In April or May Dr. Tandy asked if there was a way stash it orally for Oakcliffe to deannex

or disannex we're not for sure what the right word is. The bill provides for certain things. Number one is that there would have to be a petition generated in the area that sought to be deannexed and that petition would have to be signed by 15% of the people living in that area. What is or what would be the real physical boundaries of Oakcliffe? The very germane issues that we have to tackle. It's up to the citizens of Oakcliffe to make that decision. Should they go forward 1991 then because our political year we call it but we would have to do what's required to make sure we would have the capability to deannex. Should we be successful in 1991 we would then pursue in 1992 the proper votes and we anticipate the capability of deannexing from Oakcliffe. Should that be the desire of the citizens of Oakcliffe somewhere out of 1992 or early 1993? Let's talk Oakcliffe Texas. Let's talk Oakcliffe as a part of Dallas Texas.

I know that you think that way. I know that's your initiative but when the people of Oakcliffe look across the river they say all of the mayors in this century have turned their backs to Oakcliffe and only looked northward. Well I don't know that to be a fact. I have never known that to be a fact. I only know the past maybe five or six mayors and I can say that certainly was not their feeling. I can speak for this mayor and tell you it is not my feeling whatsoever. Oakcliffe is a very vital part of this city and to just think of the things that we have there I mean the zoo. I mean that's one of the great attractions of Dallas and we've invested a lot of money in the zoo. What I want is what's best for this whole community. Jack Evans is the former chief executive officer and president of the Column Companies. He also served as mayor from 1981 to 1983. I do not want to see Oakcliffe to see because once that divorce takes place it's be very difficult to put it back together.

Oakcliffe is a battered wife and country that's all up there is Oakcliffe. The biting up and talking about succession is no way to accomplish anybody's goals. Each of his citizens of Oakcliffe deserves community and more important than that in a government that is responsible and representative and if we can't get it from the city of Dallas we deserve to take it for ourselves. It'd be very costly to the city of Dallas. If it's a Simmons card or that's involved in that there's a lot of that's mega books. The workforce in Dallas could be significantly reduced perhaps by as much as a third. Cliff Cahillie is assistant city manager for development for the city of Dallas. We would lose probably a third of the population of Dallas. We would lose maybe a third or thereabouts of the land area of Dallas both of which are

strongly negative things. Tax-based wise though we would only lose somewhere on the vicinity of about 10% of the tax base because it's mostly residential because it is principally residential and there is a lot of presently undeveloped land vacant land and so tax wise it probably would be more hurtful to Oakcliffe to separate from Dallas than it would be for Dallas but for the longer haul it's still as my judgment it would be bad for both. Could it Oakcliffe survive as any kind of vibrant with any vibrance? I think that Oakcliffe could exist as a suburb of Dallas just as many of our other cities do. It already has an identity. It doesn't have to

worry about establishing an identity but I think it would be a quiet community. Despite the fact that it's been neglected by Dallas that it takes years to get a washed out bridge repaired or a drained lake cleaned up that garbage can go uncollected for months and its older infrastructures get much less attention than that in newer north Dallas despite all that there are those who want to remain in the city of Dallas. Well Oakcliffe has always been separate and special even when it's a part of Dallas. I mean we don't have to leave Dallas to be separate and special. That special feeling has always been here. Lupe Beltran is a government worker and community leader in Oakcliffe. She doesn't trust the motives of leaders who want to disannex. My understanding of when this whole movement started was when the North Oakcliffe section realized that there was not going to be an Anglo dominant district. And you're suggesting that this whole deinexation movement grew out of racial concern? Yes I do. I really do. I sincerely believe that

when Dr. Tandy was running he came to me and said but for me I can address your concerns. I don't have to be of your culture or your heritage background. I can take care of you. You're an Oakcliffe resident. I know what you want. And yet when we have a redistricting plan that changes that and might put a person of color to represent his part of town then he feels that that person cannot represent his needs and his concerns. If it does happen and I've heard this among my neighbors and of course we discuss this it's a topic of conversation. My neighbors my neighbors of color say well we'll let them do the work and get and let us become another city but we're going to run it. We're going to be the mayor. We're going to be the chief of police. But how would you and your neighbors of color particularly vote if they came to an election? Against it. The majority of Oakcliffe has not is not responding to this. They're not involved. They haven't asked the majority of Oakcliffe. Other communities around the country are keeping a close

eye on the process in Oakcliffe. In the Roxbury community of Boston for example leaders there have tried for years unsuccessfully to descend next for some of the same reasons voiced by the people of Oakcliffe. There is no other area in the city of Boston. I swear that you find this stuff. This stuff is tolerated. Look at this. Some of this stuff has been here so long and archaeologists could come in here and take a look at it. Okay. Maybe it's the land or whoever the owner of this place. Maybe you can say it's his fault. All right. All right. All right. Let's go. If you turn around behind you. Okay. See this is a problem. You get the garbage on the street. You get the garbage on the street. As long as there are clear and distinct inequities then there's always going to be those who say there's a better way of doing this and a better way is rather than trying to beat down the door of City Hall and trying to get City Hall to change we need to create our own City Hall and in a lot of respects that is the kind of American pioneering spirit in a lot of respects. I think that in some instances

that has manifested and become reality more often than not it has not been the case. So Oakcliffe could be the first experience in some time that could prove beneficial in terms of looking at the issue of municipal incorporation in a brought away. It remains to be seen. I think it's going to be something that is going to be closely observed obviously in the Dallas community but I think also in throughout the United States and I think if people think there's a better way of bringing about a desired result of getting from point A to point B they may very well look at Oakcliffe as an example of they did it and if they did it and they were successful there's no reason why we can't. If Oakcliffe seceded it would have a profound

effect on this effort and on efforts around the country. I mean this idea is an idea that's being talked about in lots of places. It's being talked about in Milwaukee. There's the whole question of East Palo Alto which is another bit of serious problem. It's not something that people use as an example of what you want to have happen when you have when you have secession and then we have the Staten Island people and so on. But what would be fascinating about this is to have a community that is majority people of color. A community that is black and Hispanic and I assume Anglo also and saying that what is needed is control. That what is needed is that you can negotiate for influence just so long and eventually you get to a point where you say why bother with that when you can expend the same amount of energy running yourself.

It's been a long time since this many people in Oakcliffe were this excited about anything and the more the idea of disinexation is discussed the more people jump on the bandwagon. Dallas leaders have been very cautious on the subject but obviously a little nervous about what could happen. I know you don't think it's going to happen but just pretend with me for a while that four years from now Oakcliffe does vote to succeed from Dallas. What does that do to Dallas? It would be a sad day. It would be a sad day for this city of Dallas and I think a sad day for Oakcliffe because working together we can be as good as we want to be. Separately we're not either of us as good. Joining us now to talk about what all this means not only for Dallas but what it also means for the proposed new city of Oakcliffe are Jim Berger, a Dallas City

Councilman who is elected at large, Bob McEllerney, president of the Oakcliffe Chamber of Commerce, Dallas City Councilman Al Lipscomb who represents part of Oakcliffe, Alex Burton, a columnist and radio commentator who is a resident of Oakcliffe, John Crawford, Chairman of the Greater Dallas Chamber of Commerce, and Sylvia Camarillo, an Oakcliffe businesswoman who serves as chair of the Bond Committee for the Oakcliffe Disinexation Committee. Thank you all for joining us. Mr. McEllerney, let me quickly turn to you and judging from that meeting last week were about 2,000 people say let's proceed. I assume that means proceed with legislation, proceed with the charter amendment if necessary, and proceed with defining what kind of government Oakcliffe will have. That's exactly how we read that direction from the community and that's what we'll be pursuing through 1991. Now there are many people out there still thinking that you really don't want disinexation. What you really want to do is hold a gun to the city of Dallas's head and force them to do the right thing, so to speak. I think what we want or whoever we are is to

allow the citizens of Oakcliffe to make that decision, and that's where they were pursuing. Ultimately, if we're successful in what the community has given us direction on, each individual citizen of Oakcliffe will decide when he or she goes to the ballot box what they want to do. That's what we're going to pursue through 1991. And Mr. Berger, Mr. Lipscomb, and watching that first video from the first public meeting, I really couldn't tell which side the two of you were on. Can you clear that up for me first, Mr. Berger? Whatever one is that I'm for all of Dallas staying together, but I believe in being fair or free. We need to be fair at all of Dallas, or we need to let the Dallas sides have the freedom of choice to choose their own destiny. And we have not been fair to many sectors of Dallas, including Oakcliffe. So I'm for keeping Dallas together, if it's fair. Okay, now that last meeting last week was held in your church, right? Absolutely. Clip Temple Baptist Church, great church. Were you there that night? Absolutely. Did you stand up? Well, I actually, actually, my or tonight we're sitting down,

and we had to stand up because the crowd was so many people standing up, you didn't see how many people were standing. We're just intimidated. Oh, you stood up to support the crowd. Mr. Lipscomb, Walter will seek his level. I'm just not quite sure I understand that yet, but what were you on this? I became involved in this pertaining to the single member districts. I think that was the basic where we are today. The city of Dallas has come up with a 10-4-1 plan, then they came up with a 12-1 plan. It didn't do anything for Clif or Chicanos. We opt for a 14-1. My reasons are, my reasons are because it's to help Dr. Tandy, the area there. They had fragmented Dr. Tandy, so I joined on to help act as a part of that two before, to get the attention of the city of Dallas, to four dollars or push the dollars back to the 14-1 plan. That's why I became involved.

Marbury, being African-American and American, and especially in Dallas, I know what it is to be separate, second-class, everything else in this city. So I empathized with Dr. Tandy. Now, if an American white man, a city councilman is going to be relegated to a second-class position with that 10-4-1, a 12-1 plan, what do you think about African-Americans at this point? Now, there are quite a few hidden agendas, Barbara, in this whole scenario. I applaud Mr. Mackle Learning and everyone else what they're doing, but there are several hidden agendas. Let's face it, Oak Cliff still has several O'cliffs. You have Oak Cliff, South Oak Cliff, and Rest Oak Cliff. You have Oak Cliff with the all-white Oak Cliff Country Club still in it. So there are several

things that will have to be worked out. Mr. Ragsdale has a part of Oak Cliff. Mr. Ragsdale has yet to be looped into this whole thing. What about all the African-Americans that aren't there? Well, I want to get to that, but okay, now tell me, you said you're basically holding the gun to the Dallas's head. I mean, that's a bad expression. It sure is. And I'm holding the two bottles in my hands. You're holding the two before the Dallas's head. You don't want them to disconnect. You want them to get their property. I want them to do what's right with the 141 and the city services. Mr. Rags came out. The mayor came out with an audit branch. She said, okay, I'm here in the committee for 141, and we have been remiss in city services. She was booed at that meeting. She was booed, hissed, and cajole, which I think was very unfortunate to treat the mayor that way. Well, I think with the people of Oak Cliff, we're saying Alex, perhaps it is too late for the speeches. Well, it was an interesting statement that the mayor made. She said, as I recall, because I was hiding back in the crowd there.

She said, I know that you people here want to stay in city of Dallas. I think that was an unpolitic thing for a politician to say at a meeting that was called to discuss secession. And that's when she got booed. Okay, but let's listen to Mr. Rags on 141. Let's assume any of you that 141 does indeed pass before Oak Cliff goes to disannex. I like to respond to that because when this whole process started, I think the assumption was that this was truly just an effort to put some pressure on Dallas to go to the 141. I think it's obvious that we knew what the Dallas was pursuing when you had the meeting at Cliff Temple. And those 2,000 people had read the paper, listened to the TV, watched the TV, and they still said, pursue secession or pursue at least the opportunity for us to decide. So I think anyone who even remotely thought that this was a one-issue affair had to say, wait a minute, that that can't be because they're still going forward. And it's never been a one-issue effort. Well, that's why I mentioned, if I may say

this, you're right. That's why I mentioned about, that's why I went to Proverbs 6, 16 through 19th chapter, speaking about Folly versus Criter Cali. Oh, you're absolutely right that everybody has their own agenda. And the first thing that has come to my mind is that people in Oak Cliff suddenly say, wait a minute, we've got some power here. For the first time, those folks across the river are listening to us. And that's a heady, heady drink. Well, it's also Ms. Connor, you know, I think that we've got also what happens. There's a great political base formed out there now that even if you don't descend next, you may decide who the next is. You may decide which bond issue passes next. Is that part of a hidden agenda that? Well, I was in charge of the bond committee. And when I went to this meeting, the very first one, I didn't have any idea about what this meeting was going to be about at all. But when I found out and saw that so many people were so unhappy about what was happening in Oak Cliff, then I realized I said, my goodness, you know,

there is really a problem. And so, you know, they asked for volunteers to come up and be a part of the annexation and stuff. And so I did. And when as I went into more, getting more and more information and found out that there were no services provided in Oak Cliff, like one of the things that I really got upset about myself was that in one location of Oak Cliff, there is sewage backed up into people's backyard. Okay. The rain goes up real high and backs up the sewer pipes and it goes into people's backyard and into their houses. And with something like that, I just couldn't sit and do nothing. Okay, but you know what? It seems to me that Oak Cliff residents have been sitting for a long time. That here, here you are coming talking about this annexation when you should have been voting. You should have been deciding who the next question was. Let me speak to an agenda. It's not a hidden agenda by any stretch of the imagination. And that is that the agenda of the business community is that it's not too late to talk. And I think that

perhaps we were a little slow in all fairness. And I think that Dallas, the city of Dallas has recognized that Oak Cliff wants to be heard. They are going to be heard, but I don't think it's too late to be talking. It's the reason I'm glad we're here today. I think this is the right direction to be talking. I think there's a lot to be gained through communicating. I think we can work these problems out. I think we've all got our unfair share of problems concerning these unsolved opportunities we've got all over the community. Now you admit that it's not a hidden agenda. I mean, I'm sure when you see $8 billion in tax space and when you see Dallas decreasing inside, that's a little more difficult city to sell to the residents. Well, I think it is. But not withstanding that, I don't think we have to reach that point. And one of the things that I'm very concerned about at this early stage is this talk about this annexation being the objective. I think that's wrong. Well, that's a miscommunication. If anybody's attended any of the three meetings and looked at the media and not to Dr. Tandy and I are anything special, but we're perceived as sort of the leaders, there is no one time that we have ever been quoted as saying we support

the annexation. In fact, quite the contrary, Dr. Tandy and I make a special point. Every time we talk to say, we don't know the right position on that. What we are supportive of, because this is what we're hearing through, the process that we have in the middle, you don't talk to 300,000, but we're talking to a lot of folks is what they're saying is we want the right to decide is Dallas going to be truly responsive to our needs and not just pet us on the head with a three million dollars. What needs are you talking about the white needs, are you talking about the needs of all of all of all of that? All of all Cliffown, you know that. Well, I'm sure you, if you're saying that, we are still, and my knowledge is still the majority in the area you're talking about. Absolutely. But why is it that you're still Miss Rachel has not been looped in and I've yet to hold a town hall meeting for my area? Also, I hope you will. I will, but I'm sure you, but you ought to still run in, help us count on Mr. McLean in making decisions. Let me finish my thought on the disan accession that he responded to, and that is that I heard on the on the tape earlier that disan accession was being discussed back in April or May. And that was before any efforts were made on either side, necessarily, to sit down and discuss

these issues. And I'm concerned that that's been pushed to the forefront rather than considering all of the viable alternatives that we have available to us. Well, let me tell you what my true feeling is, Miss McLean, and going out to O'Clip over the last three months or so, talking to people, you may have thought you had a horse that was bridal, but it seems to me that the more people talked about it, the more interested they were in this movement, notwithstanding what the leaders would say at every meeting. I grew up in O'Clip, and I want O'Clip to be a part of Dallas, but I will tell you, but still the Lions Club, still go to church, Chamber of Commerce, et cetera, I'm involved in all of Dallas, and I still have my heart where I grew up, but I will tell you that from the time that you start in the first grade in O'Clip, you are almost as Mr. Lipscomb and say indicated a second-class citizenship in this city, and those feelings are deep. And the idea that thanks to some individual or any group of

individuals may have hidden agendas, the agenda is simple. Citizens won't be treated fairly and equitably and do not feel like they have been for a long period of time, the facts buried out. I think, let me say this, you're right. I think this is at this point, I see a certain amount of hypocrisy, and I think it's really an Anglo agenda, because let's face it, if this city of Dallas is what, over 50 to 50 percent minorities, and you only have two African Americans on the City Council, no Chicanos and all, I see a certain amount of hypocrisy here. We're talking about equity. If you're talking about a city of 300,000 people, just presuming that you've got, say, 10 City Council Districts, you're certainly going to have a lot more black representation, Mexican-American representation, maybe even Asia addict, maybe even American Indians, since there's a lot of those in Oakland too. So it winds up that you've got a government that is much closer to the people than it is, right? Ron, you're right, Ron Burden, that's in there, it's right. But that's why I was

talking about, probably, as one more time, the 6th chapter, verses 16 to 19, we must do a way with Folly and be practical about this. But the thing is not going to happen. It's moving now. It's moving now. And it's gotten away from this original course. The original thing was because of the single-number districts. Whatever the people want. But you see that you're opinion now, no? No, it's not even. You can learn it is. Then otherwise, then under the Guides, we're launching someone's political career, under the Guides. I'm the guy. Well, no, let me get to it, because you raised it. I mean, I talked to a high-city official. It was not Mr. Lipskin, who said, okay, this movement is all about two people. One of them wants to be city manager. I wasn't sure of Oakland for Dallas. One of them wants to be mayor. The city manager they were talking about is you, Mr. Mackalerny. The mayor, they were talking about, is not you, Mr. Burden. Even though I think you probably want to be mayor too sometime. But it was Mr. Dr. Tandy, right? And do you want to be city manager? No, I'm not. I'm on TV. I do not want to be city manager of Oakland.

Interesting, Bob, are you back the way now? I'm asking you a specific question. The whole thing, we got started on this thing. It's now got a momentum. It has a momentum of its own. It's beyond these two people. It is outrun. Oak Cliff has always been a place where people think for themselves. The people who move to Oak Cliff when they come to Dallas do so in spite of all the good advice they get from the people who live in North Dallas. And consequently, you've got independent thinkers who are not political followers, which is why there's been no political leadership. And that's what I heard, Mr. Camarillo say. She would open mind it. I didn't know anything about this. I didn't know anything about the 14 one. I don't follow political and all that kind of stuff. When I see someone having a problem with sewage and stuff in their backyard, I'm sure the people in North Dallas don't have that problem. In my neighborhood, we don't have that problem. Our streets are good. We have lights. We have garbage pickup. We have a very nice neighborhood. And I'm very proud of our neighborhood. But if a neighborhood over on the other side and is in my part of this side of the river, it's a problem. I also,

I don't understand how come when I worked with the bond issues and stuff. I don't understand how prioritizing of the bonds have been, you know, awarded or whatever. There's a lot of projects. Well, you know, but not only that, it's the prior, I mean, okay, we get 20%. Well, let me tell you what the mayor said. Let me tell you what the mayor said. The mayor said, we went to Oak Cliff in 1985. We went to the Oak Cliff Chamber of Commerce. We went to the city groups. And we said, what do you want? Everything you said you wanted, you got in the 1985 bond issue. But it hasn't been done. Yeah, I think there are two issues in that one. North has it been done throughout the city. It's got that particular bond election. So I don't think you can pick out one particular section of the city. Rather than getting we in there, because I think I agree with you, John, that I think I know. I think there's a lot of room for

discussion because the citizens of Oak Cliff will have some time before they can make the decision. I think what we have now, and that's why, and as Alex said, Oak Cliff folks are independent thinkers. One of the political things that we do achieve now in Oak Cliff, and Jim Berger's been pushing on this for a long time, is we have very informed people. We have somebody now who a year ago didn't know some of the depth, and we didn't teach you. She went and dug a wrong thing. We have a base of folks who no longer take- Do you think the blackmail answers? Wait, just a minute. Wait, before I let you ask that, go ahead. I just want to say that in Hitchhike on a point, it was made earlier that the past carries with it a lot of abuses. I mean, in many, many areas. We can't make up, you know, we can't go back to 1890, and if you go to other parts of the city, and look at some of the things that haven't been done based on the 85 bond election or city services, we've got a lot of problems throughout our city. And I think to just take one sector of our city, the southwestern part of our city, and single that out is wrong. The point I want to make here is divide and conquer will not get the job. And Mr. Lisbon's being quoting the

Bible, Proverbs, I like, let's quote Mr. Solomon. Do we divide this, maybe? Oh, no. Mr. Lisbon, let me say this. Bless your heart. If the black citizens of Dallas, in my district, or willing, or willing, since we have gotten the attention of the city of Dallas to bring Oak Liff into the loop, if they're willing to go back and do it like what the mayor said, okay, we've been remiss, let's come back together, then by God, I'm sure that there are other should be the same way. What are you going to do if the black citizens say nay? You're going to go and go with cockroach, or something like that? Is that one of the hidden agendas? I would think it would be everybody. Is that one of the hidden agendas? Because they have not, they have not even, including the African-American, no one has talked with me, other than Dr. Tandy. Dr. McLean? Dr. McLean has not anyone else. It's put me in the loop. It is not. I am an elected city councilman. If you do that to me as an elected black city councilman, what are you going to do to another black city district? So I see a certain amount of hit progress in here.

I'm willing to let bygones be bygones. Let's pull together for the overalls in your Dallas. Okay, but back to this thing about, you know, Dallas is ready to do that. Let me ask Mr. Berger this because it appears to me that Dallas may be ready now that the two before got the attention. But at the same time, Dallas is not in position to do anything now. I mean, where's the money going to come from? Where's the money going to come from? Well, Dallas can do some things. It can, it can prioritize. We just went and spent money for flower beds when we could have spent some money over here to take care of some needs and no cliff where we have code enforcement type situation. It's still a matter of priorities as to how we're spending right this moment. And even as we sit here right this minute, we're getting ready to make some major decisions that are going to affect, that are going to affect the city of Dallas and Oak Cliff for generations to come. And it's still not being considered fair and ugly. We can decide now. I never get my question. Do you think of 141 vote before Oak Cliff decides whatever will change that and change the makeup of the council so that Oak Cliff will get attention? Bob, Ray, it won't change it. It will not change that particular scenario, what you're talking about.

It cannot send, it cannot send the overpowering positive message, but it can certainly send an overpowering negative message. I'll tell you one thing, all of the 141 before you leave that. Okay. I think it's very important that the people in Southwest Dallas or Oak Cliff or in all parts of Dallas go out to support that 141 or else we will have some additional problems that lend itself to what we're talking about today, which relates to city services. That's very important. That's what I'm going to do. Okay. You talk about it. It isn't a pity. You talk about having the citizens of Oak Cliff doing something. Okay. We, an airport was proposed, was a preliminary report. Okay. It was given to the high officials of the city of Dallas. We were trying to work on something that's positive. Nothing has been done, nothing has said, nobody has said anything about it until recently. And about those flower beds, okay. I would sure like to see some of that money go to fix that sewage problem. Tomorrow,

I would like to see anything being done to the Oak Cliff area, whether it be lights, light cliff, you know, something, you know, the study has been done. Okay. The study has been done. The construction is ready, it's ready for construction and nobody has done anything about it. In diversity on the city council, like it should be diversity on the city council. Well, you know, the ethnicity that make up of the city, what about getting that on the city council? Does that assure a delivery of services? Does that assure a delivery of services? By then, all in the white, Ron, brother Burton, it hasn't happened. But does it assure a delivery of services? Yes, I think it will. Okay. Do that. You'll bring the government much closer to the people. And obviously, what you've done, Tom and Terry's Alex, you do disagree. Which, whichever direction you go, Bob, right? There are no guarantees whether there's a dis annexation. It all comes down to how well do people vote? How well do they get involved? For the first time in the 23 or 4 or 5 years that I've lived in Oak Cliff, the first time I've seen all of Oak Cliff

ignited. First time. I take issue with you there. Do you? Everyone knows me as a predominant really white. You see very few African Americans in there, Archie Connoes. Why do you think that is, Mr. Nuffin? Very few because it's an Anglo agenda. That's why. Look, look, look, look, look, look, we had our first meeting. This is not an Anglo here. I'm not. Thanks. Where do we have our first meeting, yeah? At Annie Hogg. Yes, sir. Yes. But, but, but, but, but it was, but it was predominant in the angles. I don't have any problems with that. Okay. Well, let me, let me, let me get up. But the point that Mr. Burden raises is, is a good one because, Mr. Let's go. I'm looking here at voting figures from the last city election. 120,000 qualified voters in district six and eight. I think 10,000 voted in the last city election. And two North Dallas districts had more votes and all the other districts combined. I'm not going to be the best. But overall, thing was about, I think, 13% overall city of Dallas. Yeah, right. But I mean, the, I think

his point is that people, if they use the power they already have in terms of voting, they could I could understand that too. But that's still does not get away from the racism that we have created here when it comes to, to configuration on the city council. Mr. Smith got a vote. Got a vote. Okay. Well, let me, let me, Mr. Crawford, let me give it to you. I'm African-American, which you kind of win at that law at CDN Dallas. Okay. I, anyway, I, when you've only got 13% of the people voting out, you can win. That's the basic issue here, what started this old. That's not my opinion. Otherwise, I don't mind being used and I've been abused and misused. Not by me because you said I didn't talk to you. Okay. Wait, wait. So, but, but Ron, Ron has said it's for all, all of the citizens of the whole cliff. Excuse me. Yes. And this is Alex. Alex, I'm not Ron. Ron Burns is with me. Alex, I'm sorry. Going back to your original state, you say that it's not too late to talk. Absolutely. Mr. McLearny, it seems to me that if that's really true, is it now time before you proceed with just old cliff heights in this thing that somebody from your side gets somebody

on this side. Well, let me respond to that because we've already taken that step. We're not waiting to formulate a committee. We've already asked. Well, listen, listen. I'm in it. But, Bob, I grant you we've been showing the process and we're ready to step through. It's to have back to. We have formulated. We formulated a committee. Jack Evans is going to to chair that committee along with Lucy Billingsley to sit down and talk with all interested parties to hopefully bring this together and talk. We got a lot of unsolved opportunities in this city and this is just one of them. And you've got to participate as well as everybody else and not we've got education. We've got crime. We've got minority relations. We've got economic development. These are all the things that we can be talking about at the same time. Not just one portion of the problem. And I'd like to talk to you on the 14 one plan. That's right. This is directed to you. Are you is North Dallas willing to take the back seat at this point since 80% of the projects

have been done on out North Dallas? Are you willing to take a flip flop? Well, I can't I can't speak for North Dallas just like I can't speak for a cliff. But I would suggest this to you that I based on the people that I've talked to in our community. I think that because of a lot of other things that are going on. I think everybody is willing to sit down on a more open-minded basis and discuss what has to be done for the good of the community overall. Not just North Dallas or not just Southwest Dallas, but the good of the community. We've got the next 10. We're not talking about day after tomorrow. We're looking at 10, 15, 20 years what we should be doing. And I think we had it done years ago. I mean, why did it take this action on the part of the people who live in a clip? Well, in order to get a good answer. I mean, you know, if you want to I don't want to debate the issue with you, Alex, because I don't think that solves anything. I mean, we can't we can we can start working our way back and get back to 1890. But I don't think that I think that's we're behind that. We don't need to talk about what's happened in the past. That's what's caused what's happening.

And I accept that perhaps that's what has been part of the problem. But that doesn't help with the solution to the problem. And the solution to the problem is everybody sitting down and talking. If that doesn't work, then we go to plan B. But is North Dallas willing to take to back off and say, OK, let's solve some of our problems. I don't think it's North Dallas or Tom. I think it's the city of Dallas or the city we're talking about here. That's fine. And I don't think anybody has to back away from anything at this point. I think we need to sit down. I think the mayor has expressed the wishes about most of all the council members with the island branch approach the old cliff. That is one more time that we have been remiss and we're going to do better. But I'll ask this why hasn't the old cliff leadership? Why they not done something about the old country club? That's still Lily White in 1990. What's that accurate? That's not white. Lily White. Yeah. Are there any blacks members of it? There's one. Well, as of yesterday, as of about two weeks ago. OK. OK. OK. Here we are. Mr. Berger, help me here. And Mr. McLean, let you know that. We're blessed. We heard it first.

Sorry. I think you're chance to call you. That's OK. Let's assume. Let's assume. I said earlier that regardless of what happens, there's an incredible political base developing an old cliff. We did. Mr. Berger, do you assume that old cliff will indeed determine the next mayor or will they sit back and let it come from North Dallas again? Well, I think that old cliff is going to vote. I think they're going to vote. I think all of Dallas is going to vote because if we have a 14 single member district, that's going to mean a whole new configuration council. And so you're going to have votes throughout. But I think you're going to see a higher involvement. I think that this process, as Mr. Burton indicates, is brought out more people that have more interest. And therefore, the greater the interest they have, the higher probability they will vote. So I think you're going to see a higher voting. And let me just say that we mentioned the stimulus card. The city of Dallas is now going to sit back and let old cliff define those boundaries as wide as they are. I mean, won't there be a legal suit ever? Can you see Tramwell Crow wearing a t-shirt that says, I'm a cliffy? Not sure I can see Tramwell Crow wearing any kind of t-shirt.

I mean, we could expect lawsuits. Can't we, I mean, if this, if this, unfortunately, we're into a litigious society. So without taking one side or the other, on any situation, you're almost subject to a lawsuit. But let me address the vote question for just a minute. And that is that if this, on the dis annexation issue, if there's going to be a vote, I'm not sure that the whole city of Dallas shouldn't vote, depending on where you draw the line. But if legislation goes, as Mr. Woolen says, there'll be only for those people's south or stemming. That's just one recommendation. I believe that it's very relevant. We do talk and we do get this out. And we've become very aggressive on it because, because the word I'm hearing is also let them go. There's a let them go type scenario that's going over in Dallas and other parts of Dallas that, that when they hear about the dis annexation of Oakwood, they say, let them go. And, and I think it's, I think it'd be very disastrous for us to let that begin to build whenever we can address these issues and we need to address them right now. I've got about

100 issues that I haven't even gotten to yet and we got two minutes left, including education. I mean, a school district, would you still remain in the Dallas independent school district? I would think that you'd want to get out of it. The answer is technically right now. Yes, however, I must be open. We get as many intense phone calls on a consideration of forming an Oakwood ISD as we do about the de annexation of the city. And I think in January, there'll be at least a sincere study on that issue too. That's the first question that I've heard asked that all the public meetings is, what, what's the school district? And, and that's a primary important for the people who live there. But if you think we have a bag of worms now at the city, just think of we superimpose the concept of a school system. And we still have to be fine, because for all we know it could be an at large election. It may not be districts and no clip at all. It could be a, that's right. That's what 91 is going to be a very interesting scenario. Can we work together? Thank you for this census figures, please. 55% African American, 16% Chicano's and 29% Anglos in the area that we're talking about. Morning news is in a much different numbers tomorrow. Okay. But it depends on who votes.

30% of the overall population in the 14% tax base. Well, it might not make up 50% of the city anyway, but when they come to voting, I mean, I'm not, I'm not, you know, that does not justify the racism that exists on the configuration of the City Council, Mr. Sanders. That does not justify it. I wasn't saying to justify it just to clarify. And Oakwood has remained silent on that. Now, Oakwood is trying to back out of their commitment to the 14 line apparently. Is that, I mean, I don't know where I go. I mean, I don't even know where you stand on 14. I haven't heard. I don't even know where I stand on 14. One, so I don't know the answer to that. Okay. I will, I will start with some town hall meetings also in Oakwood. I do know that Jim Berger and I attended a meeting on Saturday and we're willing to talk about the issues in the predominantly black church. And Mr. Crawford, that's right. The bottom line is that we have, as of this minute, we have an excellent opportunity to pull our community together to work towards the common goals and objectives that all of us want to have. I'm going to end on that note. We can continue thus all the time we have for this evening. This is the story of course that we will continue to follow.

Please join us next week when we will have the first of a two-party election special. Until then for all of us here at News Edition, please take care. News Edition is made possible in part by the members of Channel 13 and by the Peter W. Baldwin Program Fund.