Public Broadcast Laboratory; 110

mm i think i would agree with on the court here that the in your view how or not progress of technology will mean that we will never solve this particular an awareness that this surge must be continued problem in terms of what we feel that it will present new problems for us so i don't look for professor strides i think a company like picture with no problems to be solved in this air that a great change is likely to congress and the public discussion of killing in i would agree with his general and i would hope the theater still a change in physicians attitudes of hmm constant continues process of making patients are aware that they are dying or facing is should the patient knows you know it it's been nice reviewing of phishing problems that the fact that we have gone through them does indicate that once told dr debakey but it's been combining elements of information education for the next hour like casper out this morning the race is a new legal and moral questions about organ

transplants which are the same in the lead with us and what about a patient like a heart specialist dr michael debakey sociologist themselves the loya jirga in san francisco houston reports color television set x rays along with a more important time for the final forty minutes of our podcast conversation with president abbas says that will live from washington with questions of all american policies not only in the wild we're off

base this was the same this afternoon when dr norman shumway spoke from stanford medical center in palo alto california on the death of heart transplant patient like kasparov lawyers and i think that the important factor here is that we don't have enough information at this time to decide precisely whether there has been any element of success is that and they venture out on the point of you know the recipient mr kasparov obviously there was no success because only when a patient leaves the hospital recall petition process of making observations of tremendous importance to other possible

recipients into the medical community is wow mr caspar actors you know as a terminal patient who had only fifteen days of life after heart transplantation but what should be emphasizing that during this time he survived and complications we sang before in other kinds of art cardiac patients but never and such confusion we think that because of his normal cardiac action he was able to survive first of all renal failure and no particular liver failure and then falling as three major operations all of which were done of course during the time that the circulation well and this in fact encouraging know i don't

wear them they face history we feel at any one of these imagine would've been legal i was trying to discuss a moment of those whether there was any problem in this particular case between a small size of recall a donor card and a larger bed and the voice of the donor heart was tortured and we would save from studies of cardiac output and father of functional demonstrations by the transplant verrilli well as the heart and in fact there was no government whatever to the circulation by this disparity in size which is approximately a horatio one victory i think we do answer in anticipation that is

whether a another clinical trial will be attempted by the stanford group in clinical cardiac transplantation and i think the answer in this case is a provisional yes depending entirely still the findings of post mortem examination we think politically that there was no evidence of rejection all those are now in the findings microscopic findings as well as a broad study of the perry a transplant verizon but in fact there was no a rejection then we feel that we have every basis upon which to plan another clinical attacked we should say finally that we have used very small amounts of immune suppression chemicals in the station and it will be a big screen in paris to the medical community of course primarily weather

this was to prevent rejection good evening i'm jon alterman sin science editor of pto to show more just indicated the heart by casper could receive two weeks ago they did strongly in his chest up to the last stabbing the transplant operation a success of the patient died this leaves only one of five for transplant patients alive says the first of these operations with performed two months ago the recent spate of public discussions of the morality and ethics of heart transplantation follows a growing number of professional meetings in the past few years among doctors lawyers and theologians concerned with the increasing strain that rapid advances in medical technology are putting on our human values systems to report on the new challenges pto producer i'll let them was a sign the

seven months ago to assemble a film mistaken on the problem tonight we'll show you this film and follow it with a live in a connected examination but experts on the questions it raises what is tonight in houston texas dr michael debakey pioneering heart surgeon from the methodist hospital in san francisco dr ansell and strauss professor of sociology at the university of california medical center in portland maine dr peter gorman superintendent of the pond than hospital and training center for the mentally retarded in chicago for the richard mccormick professor of moral theology at the bottom and school of theology north korea one on and that the charleston that joint professor of pastoral theology and psychiatry at the university of chicago's divinity school and here in new york called wire a lawyer an authority on various legal aspects of these new problems this law ivan a connection will be moderated in new

york but the deal correspondent tom petty a television station casey et now the film this is lori was trance dear lived for eighteen days with a transplanted heart the dramatic surgery and dr christiaan barnard created no medical dilemma is compounded by dr adriane kantrowitz who tried to say one infant by implanting are part of another what we want to do is essentially to make one whole individual out of two individuals who cannot survive food shows is the life to be safe who decides when there is no hope for the donor by the time dr norman shumway performed his heart transplant surgery on my casper racket was obvious that the questions of life and therefore not simple or know these same questions were raised a few years ago when successful transplantation of kidneys began

thats nineteen year old girl is waiting for a new kidney three years ago her mother donated a kidney but just recently it was rejected by the girl's body stelzer is kept alive three times a week she comes into the hospital and is put on a good name is shane but every year eight thousand americans died because there are not enough available kidneys or kidney machines this eight year old girl was one of the lucky ones she is linked by tubing to a good name is shane of that of chemicals and membranes which aren't officially claimed her blood and gave her life eventually she will receive a kidney from her aunt the medical problems of transplants are complicated by legal confusion and varying state laws covering organ donation he's been at

the point of time shortly after that this woman was lucky enough to get a kidney three months ago from her brother and she's doing very well i had a slight fever one day and since then it's been listening to yesterday's a locking zip codes he's doing fine

but when you don't have a relative to turn to what do you do people are not able to find donors it easily and the specter of a black market in vital organs is a real one because the demand is far greater than the legitimate supplies hospitals have elaborate procedures to determine who will be helped but there are no guarantees that the poor will be held as often as the rich clearly the gift of life is not simple to dispense mr ryan st vincent's hospital and the doctors and nurses are answering a code ninety nine an emergency call for a heart attack victim who has just that they have only four minutes before star trek to life and we pump blood to the brain otherwise oxygen starvation were destroyed so if it sells only a few american hospitals are equipped to give intensive coronary care like

this but even here the questions are difficulties who decides when not to try them when to give up the medical profession is looking for answers dr william reilly of women's medical college in philadelphia and which may have a routine standard on all patients who were admitted to the hospital it will stay if there's cardiac arrest whether there is to be an alert or not and what the interns in the house positions are instructed to write when they write the admission orders for the routine chest x ray and carney random blood tests near analysis and so on they will put down cardiac alert if this patient is to be resuscitate any of this sudden cardiac arrest or they'll put down know cardiac arrest alert and so this is it this is a step that we have already taken this

is this is sometimes frowned upon by those who know about it but i think it is a step in the right direction but here again you see this is making that doctors don't like to have the right there is a decision and a an eighty year old person comes into the hospital with a terminal cancer and develops a sudden cardiac arrest are you going to resuscitate them or not in other words they have special coda goes over the loudspeaker which alerts all the hospital staff to come running to such and such a room if there's a cardiac arrest well in a case like this that this means that they're not to put out the alert for this particular patient nurses to choose among persians very often the decision comes foreigners to make a choice between the terminator terminally ill patients and the other patients on the ward i think around very often you have to make the choice of the other

patients who have a greater chance of survival have to be the ones that are taken care of first in determining a terminally ill patient in a comfortable and left to die in london the superintendent in the east in the hospital recently posted a notice do not revive anybody over sixty five already terminally ill patient whose heart fails the charts of certain patients were marked and tb are not to be resuscitated but in the face of public reaction the ministry of health finally stepped in and said there could be no blanket rule only individual decisions lord plant former head of the royal college of physicians spoke with the beales robert macneil about keeping the elderly alive in londonderry or people i think you must make an individual a message there are also people who are you know still it's a religious duty in mind a healthy body but in general some poor old saying who is only a

month to trim the greatest mistake and you see are is a commissioner's stall but there isn't much chance that you will get a good result in a no questions where you might have a personal fortune fifty he was outraged about her susan's a to make a blanket rule that nobody over sixty five for instance president is apparently the news been nervous should be resuscitated word confirm some people who did have some life expectancy us i think they'd probably very fruitful but i think that for that i think it's a pity to make so gentlemen death but i'm sure it was done in the interest of that really was you're an old person with a painful disease and they're near shore tied to native and in giving them more free in any way that you can

find it quite easily and it was in your conscience to give them a lot more than is so to speak to go before the most was that life expectancy is concern what would your attitude be into those supporters of euthanasia who advocate the mercy killing a very badly enough on babies well wu says the recession which doctors they're all doing that made and relatively and i think that a good many babies like that are not enough to survive and again i think it but they are all repeat it isn't all had to end to the tragedy led down the exact conditions under which has quadrupled quintupled there is another medical view of that physician's was never take life dr david kornacki of new york a

noted cancer specialist as physicians or obligation sustain life preserver long as possible and suddenly remember oh a young man and princes tunisian and there we're taught to do everything possible and the care of our patients will flee arbitrarily decide the patient lived long enough or it wasn't for the media and for the patient when they ultimately make serious mistakes and the scourge newsman from china in the best possible way in nineteen thirty nine the actors sigmund freud was dying of cancer of the jaw when the pain became unbearable by pre arrangement with a physician friendly was given a massive fatal shot of morphine dr fried believed he had a right to determine the time of his own death ernest hemingway is said to have taken his life or naked

mole understand repeated hospitalizations and the thought of what age and illness had done to his mind and body proceed regimen of physicist and philosopher at harvard committed suicide and left this note it isn't decent for society to make a man do this thing to himself the dilemma facing modern medicine is do some patients have a right to die mrs l's the garment is a great grandmother in denver and she is in good health for a woman in her eighties but mrs garmin wants to choose her own time to die with a mercy pill i want the appeal from my doctor i should sign for an appeal everyone of any responsibility so i'm too busy

doing things that i had to do when the time comes and i do not want to do these things when i am utterly tired and it seems to me that since mann plays guardian so many ways he might just as well go one step farther where body out as one criterion for letting the body go out his brain that's b a lecture on several grounds for the g tells when the brain is or is not functioning this teenage boy was knocked out of football games there was fear he had suffered brain damage to find out for sure a sensitive leaves were attached to have to pick up traces of activity in various parts of the brain the composite record tells the condition of the brains that the robert schwab and oakley eg laboratory at massachusetts general hospital their version of

it in the past the laboratories in boston a new definition of death is being read from sophisticated electronic equipment developed by dr john bartlett has come the concept of the brain that i'm ashamed now can tell doctors when to give up on a patient in a coma traditionally doctors have waited until a hard stop and breathing and the no definition of brain death raises new questions of medical ethics concerning organ transplants and mike discussed at a reasonable involves one patient has been noted that many of the moment and a patient with nine mccain says the us still functioning and it has been another patient that it was that building it is a very critical point and it's it has increasing

importance of time goes on it's already been a problem this hospital and i surely must mention because if one allows a person who's raised it to be maintained by it show means for oh say a week or two weeks until your organs like the kenyans will be damaged by this and then are not suitable for transplant in a person's life to be saved and therefore so did you and the chairman at the brain is irreversibly gone then you can declare the patient dead animal out the healthy kidney or even no never the transplanted and so another person's life i don't believe in this kind of a miracle that the brain will go back again once it's that any more than i would believe that your leg was amputated it would go into spontaneous the back of the moon for the evidence

of brain death is simple a flat eg no electrical activity in the brain this is the record of a forty five year old man whose skull was fractured in a car accident again dr schwab this is a record that actually three in a grand way and it indicates the bahrainis that the electrocardiogram or we did our views on the lunch and the three others show this brainwave showing no electrical activity at all and he is therefore in our concept debt and the physician charge that since this is the second recording twenty four hours after the first and then withdraw the respirator and pronounce the page we're going live now the houston to ask a question of dr debakey died there were you able to see the

film are years as a heart surgeon would you now feel free to take the heart of the man and the failed for use in a heart transplant operation all other things being equal you mean the electorate's the program and showed no evidence of brain function yes now i would nod at this point i cannot on the basis of our own experience as well as experience of others completely agree with dr forward to that this is a satisfactory definition of bell i think it may be under some circumstances uncertain in time that we have seen patients who have the same kind of a lectern south of rome the show but nonetheless no way to have such

an anomalous i think there is still this is the mile still has this been the essential our definition of death than the heart transplant operations up till now well or so i can only a comment about this and directly because we have no experience with human cardiac transplantation and one other cases where one of von fires are about russian bernard this so this was not used as a definition of doses say wait until those evidence of heart is in ft as a concern you and dr debakey that their might be some danger than the prospect of donors would be allowed to die prematurely or be declared dead prematurely merely to get there organs for transplant operations

well i think the general was recognized that there are some ethical moral questions raised by the issue i would say that and most medical science news so this fall more is early early study in terms of the city individuals involved in team will that joe is thinking of this decision will be made to the satisfaction of skilled personnel but just an ad i'd like to ask you this as a psychiatry is stand there as a professor of theology whether you think it is ethically possible to justify experimenting on human beings impresses me about this decision is that it's a decision which is an effort to

describe what is happening and i think neither an area of psychiatry and sense of judgment island ferry of theology do we interfere with this kind of description so long as it is a description and not simply a value which is being imposed the whole question of bethel has a greater dimension to it than simply some kind of physical description of this devastation of life what do you object to heart transplants as a form of experimentation i do not know as a matter of fact it seems to me it's another illustration mobile are progressing technology where we're able to have to increase it enhanced the meaning of life but it seems to me that the deeper question and brought here is the whole question of why we do it and too rock band and purpose to extend the life that is so nothing in some kind of grandiose goals at this point but simply the fact that as i observed this film i saw the doctors and the patients and as we heard

in the case of the stanford third man that there was a great cooperation between the family and this man and it seems to me that this is a kind of a pattern but we need to follow a sense of the participation in the part of the patient and his family in every case and making a decision because to be alive which is the opposite of course is to be free to decide to shoot there's some sense of intentionality and face simple description of death which one can describe as something outside of you is different from the death of a person whom wand labs and within one has deepened intended relationships and want to make this kind of distinction it seemed to me a father mccormick professor streisand seven sisko and you've studied many terminal patients what is your opinion of whether the extraordinary

measures used to keep my casper i fell i would have been used on it just an ordinary person only the kind of measures that we use to understand the patient are fairly typical not a mental hospital and even medical center practice lot of what goes on when you have the patients who has hardly has any chance whatsoever of surviving and then that is used as a research patient he's always used at the point at which the positions almost totally given a pension system as life of the patient self knowledge and the physicians of course was thinking that you will of the savior or take drugs and i think what was seeing cases where patients at this forum for patients who really are as dr shen wei said channel

patients already faded lowest from fishermen that feeling is justified beside those perils of the fact patients not expected to have any health official response for office making the syrian and i if you're given very little chance of living in his office the research results certainly don't justify what is unfortunate in close is the kind of the world series happens they would just surround of the reporting of this not because of physician citizen of publicity because the horrors of their special thing rio one thing about allen carpenter crocker a career of years now the squires transplantation is concerned there is anyone lose rather radical transplantation plantations on i find no fundamental moral difficulty ethical difficulty

but i had been disturbed by the use of the phrase your experimentation because i do feel that at that point this type of procedure gets to be an experiment now we can always qualify what we mean by that but he gets to be an experiment i think that we are we tend to be dealing with a thing rather than a person and it seemed to me that in order for transplantation already any transplant be hard for any transplantation to two weeks justified marley and humanly is that they are pursuing a greater human good for the individual person involved not supporting actress into the race to the medical profession whatever it might be afraid of awards presentation of it because with politicians and portland you work with a severely retarded children some of whom have been defined as vegetables as cruel as that may sound

do you think it is wrong to keep them alive is that an experimentation tom i have recently and for repeatedly raised this question myself because we use here live with profound retardation with the most severe degree that leaves no hopeful fascination of a new phenomenon and i think the complexity of the whole problem has been reworked he had so far as paul ryan i think this is going to be good to establish a frame of reference we took her short film here to say and demonstrate what we have in mind and we don't have an arm here for example of what is a local mentally retarded churn were trained in particular they enjoy a healthy life much like you're in my chair and build and after some specialized training of

speech therapy and occupational they will return to the community to a show the online show that she was august thirteen fourteen york city he's had succumbed to hire six inches and he must be restrained and takes two people can change and more than once that is difficult to feed extremely self abusive or loses his usual position during waking hours and he has a twenty eight year old man

not epilepsy the aipac convention bitter ridges on says he may know for another fifty forty fifty years it is suggesting that those electability nod nod and raising the question as to what form of treatment these patient should receive when they become seriously ill or whether they should be permitted to peacefully die i think the whole issue of death and life should be re examined among philosophers theologians the medical profession and other people i think we pretended that death is something that must be avoided at all costs or we readily admitted not a religious denominations that death is not something that is inadvertent and something that has to follow however it seems to me that we all inadvertently and more

conscious of the issues than others or pretender that that is something that has to be avoided is amounting to and simulation and i think there can be as dignified as beautiful as my mother but do you think that sometimes that should be intentional on the part of the doctor i certainly thinks and a lot of judgment that i would hold that contrary to some statements that were made that not to be left to the individual judgment of just one doctor somewhere out in the sticks i think there should be a corporate of judgment and the family are involved in the spill father mccormack in chicago from roman catholic point of view is there any situation in which a physician can intentionally and the human life that say of an ambiguous phrase i'm afraid it seemed to me that to heart and to play an uncertain since june can that person will build it is is quite and conformity with the basic judeo

christian tradition times after all a physical human life is not an absolute not an end in itself however that phrase can also mean i intend that someone die and i take the step to see that he does that here we have a completely different thing differs between it seems to me of committing a person to death killing him and following him to die what's the difference for different basically is taking a positive action which will actually put a person out of human existence part one and we know what that means when we have a lot of examples of that but one interaction though it also would imagine will have the same effect that we dont know here are our human actions in terms of what happens because we omit certain things at all is it pratt says drug market and likeness on the lot would either of those be a martyr mr dwyer not only that the murderer but i am afraid that i can't really see the fine distinction between action and

inaction so far as i was concerned that thing that puzzled me at the moment as the first definition of death as this could lead to all kinds of legal complications i'm sure the doctors giving is best definition of that but i can conceive a situation where the brain is not functioning for days on end even months and even years and this has happened in the hot continue to function and the person is by all the standards the legal standards that we know the present time was alive now we simply look at a hospital chartered that certificate up to this point and we find that patients stop breathing or certified by the doctor that life is and that's the end of it but insofar as this definition is concerned i can see that they all the policies and every insurance company would have to be readjusted to meet this contingency i can see the possibility of the wilson

which show writer survivor would be an affected seriously biden a number of other things what we're talking about right now is the right of a position to handle patients alive oh i would say that they're this certainly should require some adjustment and all week we have a provision asus of our law a man isn't i live life liberty and pursuit of happiness and life is the first of those and no doctor from the stakes and no group of doctors should be permitted to do that under our legal concept was in a doctor from this day so this is one of eight terms it was used by think back to bomb and he said that he didn't believe that this should be done by a doctor from the sticks and firing that of a group of eminent scientists got around they could make that determination believe me i don't believe that they can make that determination by law and certainly ought to be some some legality do anything like that if all of theologians and all the men of medicine and all

ominous signs get together they must take into account the legal implications of what they intend to do well i think that for the last thirty years when i referred to the man of the stakes come and the land so there's no light was no consultation available independent and himself and his own judgment sometimes has to be done and it's being done all the time but i think in a circumstance where conditions experienced clinicians could be confronted before a decision has been made but i do like to raise a question why mather can veto them and the robot aggressively terminating life than to fade away a case in point as we experience a friend of mine who he was riding in a jeep and in front of him to know that she was into and then one of the men that she had both his legs to an off and has no option in the intestines were losing out in this

mostly and she's killing the economy and his best buddy and while the doctor is in is a spinning i'm getting all that concerned about this whole notion of the experts making the decision that seems to carry out this notion that chronicles concerned about two of experimentation seems to me a very significant group of people are being left out the cabal mentioned in consultation with her family it seems to me that what is needed in this whole new development of medical check knowledge is a growing sense of dement consensus on the discussion are large group of people not simply an expert of all kinds of people don't make these decisions because the decision is so lovely end result of a long process the decision making context that decision i'm not sure i understand what i think so i mean i feel that if

it's going to be a genuine decision of freedom that you know the patient himself or his family are people close to him asked me in cabinet so that is something which he participates in wow this is the very meaning of freedom and it seems to me that we do very easily move into the attitude of having its exports make these decisions so i don't think the theologians five as anybody else can make it and they can compare the way that i like to say that either party included as much as possible we have the concept of informed consent and research well actually just a moment professors strauss as an observation right at this point and one of the problems i think of the word touching and today the word medical technology use over and over again and the problem was on stages the twenty thirty forty years ago we were dealing mainly with acute disease which people died of disease thing from his accidents the kinds of cases that we totaled

chronic diseases were still some chronic disability that's not return they should and would not even begun to talk about the movie touch than thirteen thousand people who were sent our own comatose years in the state hospitals and if we can really look at what physicians and hospitals and witnesses state hospitals in addition to actually seeing the patients are other less uncertain times are you proposing mass you know what i'm saying is that i would read not just in that what is needed is a public discussion very very important role the nurses and doctors and patients and these people have to make decisions no republican make the decision for them sometimes

in a family's around sometimes position of trust the decision on the family ranch near minute he was never this time when the family physicians nurses faced the media gave the problems i suspect that what we need is a public discussion of the role of technology was the fact that people are dying out and hospitals almost a rather small of chronic diseases the time came he had been one of the parties involved and this is what the film and also raised the issue of the fish himself as the new york yankees and many others use this in patients shouldn't overdo the line isn't on as the patient not as the movie itself without some needed an

old dr debakey of the woman from denver who said that she wanted a mercy paul once you've felt she wanted to die came to you and asked for that bill would you give it to a normal or were i think at this point and i would be very reluctant to use them at this is that in the right time original new uses for it was a doctor and be helpful and recommendations and i do not believe that a lot of this in the decision by live

except in situations of evidence clearly indicates that the patient cannot possibly live longer then you would tell me oh i think there are lot of all the scientific world the fire and the beach boys and more how would you ever the bill that she has stated that i've seen as a catalyst that's conventions one day and change their mind and i'm sure was shared this extreme are alive and there's enough evidence now from a camera conclusion namely that we do need a ban on the general public professions the theologians german

in some way as to what is the main and the restaurants mentioned the fact that the patient cannot make sure that the whole model of patience when people are making choices with chores have been made for them or that when they were to a choice and the choice that was made or conveniently favor of excitement like oh father look like in chicago how doctor delivered the law of relieving pain that is celebrated most prescribed a fatal dose of morphine to really bow out how to save face that dilemma of accomplishing both things is sworn to what i suppose we have to ask the doctor just how he's going to achieve those results indeed if he can achieve real world a cabin sure you know now will i suppose he sets out to relieve pain by rendering the

person insensitive to an unconscious long as this is what he is doing medical judgments terry in terms of aggressively terminating life you know that might happen as a result however i think in the end the discussion we have been having i wish to agree with that in the baking wholeheartedly on this that are unique in taking the matter of the profound problems of human suffering for the public and discussing how we as a society should remember that we never want to put ourselves in the position of those were competent to judge what lives are worth quoting what not what are doctors already decide that father mccormick well i think give us that that you would you know what's as dr debakey beyond doctors already decide who should live in shall die under some circumstances well i think

the question isn't whether the doctor do not decide until the riverside in their in their judgment based upon the situation the famous faces at patients for patients and to belong to fly but they don't make the decision you know about the mixed message and the station along the mayor wants the nation to mandate not a moment on some patients decide that for themselves when i shall die and seek some assistance from a doctor on occasion grant such assistance patience patience more than one occasion a lot of changes that

same personality and degenerative disease of the plane and i was intending to a gentleman in his late seventies to contract pneumonia on both sides can become comatose i pumped in a given election night and up to three days you can live in a nice army and long live the youth and the us and i wanted to die and so i don't know that and from then on the question of what it does matter what the us don't leave a thing that i haven't practiced medicine a functional sixteen seventeen years in the bonds perjury in a ministry of psychiatry at that and when you put the question the question of whether your car and then the men can breathe the core of the lab

is among juvenile a new assembly district he had interviewed june four card and they can prevent a progression of circumstances that compound the professor's strauss first and got a backup with the puppies telling people to think that i am singular simple ways to get long term than in state hospitals you get cancer or five years the first place and like the hard facts and so on and if you go to hospitals and see what doctors urged the drilling rigs in season conditions in which they work that out monster hit any kind of real bump and they stop such as occasion as represented by problems like this then

you'd say something whether doctors do not make this is the issue of whether their daughter enters spain is the second aspect of it like this haven't been silent version of life decision making decisions as to whether to use incomes johnson would a keep the patient that living longer use when decide within a patient in pain is with the truth is when they didn't want the patient who's family resisted reading the question are unsure whether an idea has a bar of life and that well i think there's no question we're never have that the doctor is in the regime that you can make decisions as to whether an extreme in places that really allowed thugs to take away equipment whether to delegate responsibility to people is thinking the nurses asked to give more or less jobs so when you say that the vetting issue i'm saying that

if you look at the thought that they are faced with these kinds of decisions are and they continue this they can supply think we should also faced the issue as a public that there needs to be public discussion well wait wait dr debakey thought i brought an amplification of about half of our political situation for conditions so does noam well known by now the positions taken here the nation so you see the patient no longer possible to do anything for that patient can under the circumstances i'm going to take a vote to allow the commission to take its natural

called leaving records patient we've been talking a great deal about the conditions under which the doctor lets the patient via makes that decision it seems to me that we ought to talk about the patient's right to make this decision to and i think he does have this right it's fundamentally his right to make this decision and where it is possible it seems to me the daughter of a popular with him and with his family and some sense and have some guidelines before this kind of condition rise as a possible but on the other hand it seems to me the one thing that we might more years the significance of the doctor patient relationship as a context of such decision making and the broad aspects of this that does that when we try to make a moral decision we're making a decision within the context of the moment and the things that are pressing upon us but also an ally the wealth of the changing dynamic consensus of opinion about the latter such as our fans are extension of life here

and this is the thing it's a symphony without walls by the contributing to this kind of growing consensus about such items i do i think very definitely that the doctors and the technical people should not be left alone in making this decision it is not their responsibility authority it is our eyes of the people and we need to find ways and means of reckoning this instance one is that they knew you brought the heart transplant question back into the ethical context let me ask you about the usual hypothetical problem that is posed of the very rich man whose family goes out and buys him a heart when he needs it or of the hopeless cancer victim who sells his heart so a lot of the family can get the money or what would you do if you had to decide between giving a hard to an ordinary patient or two the president of the united states like all the more reason why we need to put this in the realm of social discussion and social action the big question which us also implies something

about the kind of money for that have been put into this kind of research and it's not within the research in and the kind of alleviation of distress in other areas of society seasoning going to make certain decisions we set up certain narrative which need to be thought about in relationship to justify the question how i don't think that we can obviously from a cop in the other person as the most money get smart phones why this is a matter which needs to be talked about in terms of broad enough to develop a consensus and which we can talk about but also raises questions about the technology itself what we ought to be putting little more emphasis on the artificial means risk and they are produced in larger numbers mean it simply raises questions about the direction and priorities that we have but my plea here is simply that we broaden the bases of those not simply to get done what logic answer shall we shall we not it seems to me you have to produce an

atmosphere in which the discussions and they carried on to find guidelines rules ways of developing a consensus decision professors droughts i would agree that we need much more public discussion family for it in patients themselves but we have also got through medical schools pay much more attention to what happens to patients as they lie dying that expresses their families as they're going through grieving even before the day is when you make your disease and people could have no question in that sense they did not get much schooling and what to do when you took the relatives of the family has been made announcements that then i think it will all of us who have watched knowing that us physicians and nurses have to get advance the school than this we also noticed is there's not that much of a discussion of this that families don't really know that the

musicians that this has openness on both sides recently i've been talking to some chaplains who have discovered that because they have become she's an expert on the subject of terminal care and pensions has been tremendous minimal services learned a couple of chaplains the chairs up evenly a christian ministers that i can give special sauce or not to continue to talk about physical and slash or dimensions kind of father mccormack matter of fact it i want to return now little earlier to the question you put to dr debakey as to whether or not the factors are actually making decisions which show ayer life and death decisions and the sense of their understanding now

if you want a formula which can be helpful mort sahl all situations i think it's important for distinguish between actually preserving a human life when there is some reasonable good to be home front in staving off a lot of their following that radiate out and the vast majority of physicians of my acquaintance i are familiar with this and they don't feel that they have to take all these extraordinary mechanical means to people for a simple life in the sense of simply stating officer on compton's break and the great majority of situations that position in terms of the question whether or not the decision made a decision to prolong why save a lot longer to put them out of the

positions have to exercise this is the national park that the professional training the question is more specific situations in which a decision has been the whole life is when they have turned some consciousness and food one of the things that occurred to me from a listen to the discussion here was it would seem that the first gentleman the english gentleman spoke about the fact that doctors do come across this situation from time to time and you do use their own decision now the fact of the matter is that i'm not quarreling with their work with they're doing it and quietly with they're doing it without some prescribe rules of law now take for instance in fact a bomb and state a few years ago a

doctor did it and placed it on the record and they prosecuted him and convicted him and my thought is is that they are doing in there should be some guidelines laid down an odd course nothing can be done like that without a public discussion the public discussion tending towards doing things illegally so that when it is done it's done the civilized fashion at least then the theologian will have a say the scientists will have a say in all respects we would do and according to law another thing the same to me as that of course this tendency we have we have i given laurels to the medical profession for having extended life from an old period of twenty years in the last forty fifty years now course now that we have extended and we wandered devise some means of taking it away and that presents its own problem in a society that spends billions annually for the carrot pets maybe we could afford

perhaps to even keep some of our elderly or live for a little while longer unless they themselves express some wish unless something is done in an orderly ends and legal fashion what he's suggesting some form of statutory medical murder and suicide now i am i'm suggesting that precisely is practiced and that has outlined that we have dialogue and the city and the situation and weed and instead of a doctor doing it now is apparently he does do it on his own decision and obviously violating existing law by doing it as he is that there are some rules of law be proclaimed perspective that we do get together and openly discusses they're doing it surreptitiously and so that we will have some form of a border out of it up into possibly formulae rule for committing murder in a hospital hallway then we built weird and not quite successfully for a number of years for the electric chair we've done a demo through the gas chamber we have that we have done it in situations that have

established us as primitive than our approach certainly weaken the by a discussion with a man of science teachers are here today and others certainly develop at least we know what we're talking about we would not leave it to the conscience of a doctor and the faulty hospital record to make that decision based on old juarez the discussion about extending life and are trying to find ways of india or justifying its end of the slope question of meditative survival seems to me to raise the question anew not only of the the meaning of death and bind us don't think twice but it feeds back into the whole question of what is like what is it the live oh that is it is it simply survival is it in some sense on to participate in meaning to have some grail of life that makes sense to us i think this is a good a good occasion to open up this

whole question because we have heard from death we run away from it we thought obviously we had long discussions about the meaning of does our fear of that in our culture is is the occasion saved me to talk about that and the feedback and the whole question of a meaningful life and the kind of decisions that have been made to give meaning and significance to my mom one of the great the theologians and philosophers of the nineteenth century is the concept of our canadian point by that he meant some of that person's life which gave him a chance to stand up and look at himself and perspective that seems to me that that is certainly of a fantasy version of the author of one of these are comedian points significant on contemporary mind the chance to stand up and look at itself in the lead of its own no gentleman i'm sorry that our time is so nearly run out but i would like to phrase one question for each of you the same question and a quick answer from each

of you i would ask you to look ahead ten years the nineteen seventy eight and ask us by them and ten years whether we will resolve the moral and legal problems of deciding when do and life and when to extend life on a mccormick i think the problem always be with us i think we probably can solve it in terms of the basic attitude or principal toward life itself but technology the sophistication of medicine will always present us with new applications of our basic attitudes well

mr o'boyle well i doubt if we won't make any material change in the end ten years particularly since i know the laws usually fifty years behind the times and fifty years at least on behind science we usually try and catch up long after the public have accepted the ideas which it had become common and i don't expect in this period of time without having to really change thank you mr dwyer and our thanks to each of our distinguished panelist tonight for this discussion of a gift of life and the right to die thank you it is

the hazards of x rays in television

nineteen sixty seven was a year when us surgeon general william stewart advised americans to keep a six to ten feet viewing distance from their color tv sets to avoid possibly excessive radiation exposure it was also the year when the long hushed up subject of radiation danger in general went public and began to open the pandora's box of deeply disturbing the sport first general electric under pressure of the public health service reluctantly announced on may eighteenth nineteen sixty seven and about ninety eight thousand color tv sets and their customers possession would have to be modified because of possibly excessive extradition mission many of defending sites were found to be many levels ranging from fifty to a hundred thousand times more than the recommended levels by the national cause of radiation protection jay first discovered this growth figure of quality control in november nineteen sixty six but did not stop production of the surface until further were under

disclosures deepened the seriousness of the problem or danger to children's eyes was noted by government specialist in congressional testimony even non color tvs we're going to have high levels of radiation if a serviceman adjust the voltage too hot subsequent tests by the public health service and consumers union show the hazards also existed in color tv says produced by other manufacturers yet no other company has announced a modification can pay more serious source of radiation namely format of medical and dental x ray machines came to public attention through a senate hearing last summer these machines account for nearly ninety percent of all manmade radiation in the united states less than a quarter of a hundred and fifteen thousand medical extremes in this country are inspected every year some states have only to one or no full time inspectors thousands of machines have never ventured of all pregnant women are often x rayed on the diagnostic

practices of gross negligence or ignorance patients have entire areas of their body spray by improperly focused that teachers in some states are required by law to be x rayed indiscriminately on a regular basis the fact of or one x ray machines find their way from the other hospitals to normal x ray units and hospitals urban slum areas where they use the subject even fewer control some vendors take so many x rays that one wonders whether they consider them part of an inventory for sale recently new york became the first state requiring licensing of x ray technician according to dr learn more than your state department of health and skilled operators often and expose the gonads of patients to as much as one hundred to two hundred times a lot of radiation necessary from a medical point of view dr kyle morton director of health physics at the oak ridge national laboratory

says that not only could one tenth of the dosage produce medarex it was such a reduction also could prevent hundreds and perhaps thousands of children being born each year with mental and physical handicaps of varying degrees the vast majority of which go undetected years ago public knowledge of prevailing x ray would have provided the spark for specialist to lead in establishing needed safer it can still be done now the growing public debate an awareness already have read her first pure troops next month the american dental association well advised them it's a dental x ray examination should not be routinely conducted periodically or be a standard part of every dental checkup this year congress will decide whether the time has come to control the silent violence of excessive x radiation as usual baby owl will be happy to provide broadcast time for responsible spokesman who might take issue with mr

majors report now the bail continues with a prisoner aboard a view of edward p morgan in washington anybody still battling the country remains dangerously hung up on racial conflict should have gone the last week's conference in new orleans on a poor bob one of sargent shriver star antipoverty projects upward bound director of next high school history teacher named thomas billings was seeking ways to cushion the transition for twitter salmon but one of the most attended conferences this reporter has ever covered reflected the microcosm of national attention as a kind of high school level head start program upward bound place five thousand poor youngsters in college last fall almost none would have made it without special help so bad was their preparatory education now this morning is making some black students confidently not that they may claim a piece of the street action

in july increasingly warren upward bound first director richard frasca a portland oregon's reed college black kids in urban you'd be programs will probably reflect they don't have to give a damn view of why these rules or cut young tough for less resourceful black power activists however few however and mindful of exceptions are announcing flat out says sociologist frost white society in america is irretrievably irreparably racist many other white delegates gas several protested reverse racism when black demanded needle project director's replace white where the majority of students are black without black models a position in power negroes argued black you cannot achieve sell success almost to a man black delegates declared not violent but it causes were the issue the record of progress was depressive last year police clashed brutally with texas southern university

students in houston the root of the trouble psu president john lash yesterday don marquis new housing projects is still there oakland detroit newark new york buffalo alternate more negative evidence but of two hundred fifty upward bound projects only one has exploded at san francisco state college state will try again one you'll be official where john hurrell feel who grew up in detroit reprise of walk told me that even magnifying his own experience one hundredfold no white man can ever know what the needle is going through yet billings rated the conference supper but the pork bones honest grappling with problems and shrug them after serving syndrome could help show school principals and police how to improve communication with negro certainly candor restraint and insight help the group of black and white delegates male and female avoid an ugly incident when a half thick tried to break up their mid night bull session in a new orleans hotel

it is only human for us decided to react offensively against violent the most substantial applause president johnson's state of the union speech evoked was a promise to crush this order obviously with force if necessary upward bound is trying it with learning it reaches twenty two thousand five hundred and thirty million dollars in apps billings figures one hundred thousand more could be reached for a hundred million dollars more or less than the cost of the war in vietnam for thirty six hours or something might be wrong with somebody value judgments somewhat less the shape of this observers point of view lala musical interludes by richie havens leasing the seven simple crumpled receipt california berkeley today for a concert by young singer regina yeah who

draws material from a variety of sources from bob dylan jesse fuller's of other writers' songs about having an increase in young audiences today such as the students' interest in california even on such a great regular season of myself because in almost twenty years of revealing concerts listening to people saying very beautiful to turn me on what his machete about richie havens are going forward it's

business it's been years amy it's beef

daisy oh last season law at

last baby ella continues now with a conversation with walter the bureau still special assistant to president johnson to subject american foreign policy in vietnam and throughout the world walt whitman right now age fifty one x baseball player yale thirty six hobbies have a tennis like songwriting addictions fresh fruit and work career all asset specialist in world war two on bomb targets economic historian professor at oxford cambridge and mit advisor to president kennedy recommended the basis of vietnam policy six years ago now special assistant on foreign policy the president johnson who calls him one of the finest counselors he's ever hacked

mr russell president johnson's state of the union message was an interesting document but it seemed to conceal as much if not more than it revealed a completely and to ceaselessly what you think would happen if a president went to the congress and said ladies and gentlemen the world isn't a dangerous mess i don't know how effective are policies toward solving them will be but if you don't support me more than you did last session we will fight that'll be interesting should the president's state of the union message was indeed short relatively speaking but if touched on all four major dimensions of the president's foreign policy as he thinks of it talks about it and it touched on what had happened and what

his aspirations were thirsty touched on vietnam and the general problem we were given that later but let's let me just before you do that i would have to get these four points in ad because it's important that the framework of the president's policy be understood the first the problem of dealing with aggression and violence second of all the economic and social problems of the world they're the world organization which he touched on regional of some progress in the kennedy erupted progress in cooperation money and progress in moving toward nonproliferation treaty and in promising reconciliation cross the barriers of core when waste much time with the president reported what he was doing and what happened sixty seven in dealing with the problems of iowans what had happened and what you want to see happen in the field of economic and social organization ever pass a reconciliation well that's that allows me to to suggest that we take a trip

and on character which will drain the dollar what sort of a world as the administration want and what are its policies interlocking or not in terms of the areas you just mentioned pointing toward that goal it's not really a question of what the administration wants it's this nation watson's about the booth join the united nations consciously i'm doing the tragedy of not having to only patients that began know that commitment to the work and to be part of the work the unveiling of the tragedy of making probably has rarely controlled what we have faced since the end of the second world war about each of the post war presidents has had to face particular kinds of problems and dealt with the world in his own way i think ej i have been quite

distinctive ways in trying to deal with the problem of the problem is the problem of building a durable peace we've had a world which since nineteen forty five and more or in chaos which involve the danger of oil since twenty four and that includes without any structure in order to live in addition additional danger of a nuclear war and all of our post war presidents with deep support of our country have been trying to slowly the bill out of this world community which were apart working without a structure stable peace now before heading was which i know the ones in which president johnson thinks works really represent the four dimensions of building a girl thinks deterring war and violence becomes making sure that it doesn't spread and become a global nuclear that's number one to make sure you go into your best

one can do is to say ear with enormous skill courage little bottle up and all the common sense in the human race that's still there we've managed for generation to avoid a nuclear war under circumstances where was not inevitable we're living in a world where you've got ideological conflict we have struggles for power into the vacuum was initially left in the second you know the administration's critics say that your policy in southeast asia is pushing further toward a nuclear war the wafer i don't believe that so i think it's only because the lesson of our experience and this isn't just a man whose experience is controlled by memories the nineteen

thirties lesson of human experiences that if those who have expansion and patients who want to have a map in their heads and once you've fulfilled at the cost to others if they begin to succeed they become committed to go all away and that three of the wars in southeast asia this nation through a constitutional process is as president's recommendation senate drew a line in the dust and southeast asia nineteen fifty four no mystery as to why did it get the cousins and get as the united states has been judged but that area including the group vocal states which include lots of not be taken over by rich now the debates were were not naive were serious defects and they talked about the character of the american interest in the world where what was at stake for us and others that those who thought that the chinese type or national

liberation might work and that was worth a try and calling us on that point we're on notice that we were committed question was would we respond and if we did respond to deal with that issue political problem let me paraphrase in illinois to come back here and back to your question that by dealing with that kind of image sue by responding when someone crosses the line that your nation and that's your limit the possibilities before you go in greece let me paraphrase will ross talked to you and if i have like a mistake you correctly to the effect that if this venture in southeast asia succeeds from our point of view it is not impossible that it may be the last major confrontation of powers and admit that it could conceivably diminish forever is a long time but for a great long time the danger of a major

you're criticizing believe that i said that in public that i put some conditions on it which are a real hazard if the west holds together and if we don't break up the nato and we don't and if united states stays the course and doesn't allow its commitment to the world i think there's a decent hope i think that was a phrase that the vietnam could be the last major confrontational ten why we've had two probe was a girl in one o'clock at other nuclear blackmail threat and sixty one sixty two president truman then president kennedy stuff that we have the attempt to use the french italian communist parties to take over those contracts which we grow or increase there was pressure on iran but iran is a society which is gaining strength in and a sense of space and becoming a modern state not easy to take over or threaten you have korea and use

conventional methods of war there that hasn't worked so well and korea south korea is not a society that anyone is going to think it's easy to take over and i do have those efforts the second effort going to take over in southeast asia and i think that if this fails who have seen the technique of nuclear blackmail used and failed losing guerrilla war under the optimal circumstances tried and failed missing in conventional war in south korea tried and failed and meanwhile make changes are taking place inside communist china which have some hope in them that they will turn more moderate accept their place in the world and turned the great unsolved tasks china and you've got there situation soviet union of change in eastern europe that has not really any longer a simple area to manipulate from moscow so i think as i

say that if there's a decent home that live most of the techniques dr haven't fit western europe and southern part of asia firming up and sectarian tolerably good shape this southeast asian american settle down we might indeed superior to sustain he's the troubles of the world anyone can see us plenty of headlines but i'm not talking about major confrontation i i want everybody wants to know more about vietnam and i'll get to that in a minute but a lot of other things have changed two years of military dictatorship in greece the western european situation is not completely tidy a leisurely so i wouldn't go i mean our usual of making history tidy are and that the fed if the facts don't fit the that that serves there as their lookout that the jury and the jury an

activist visionary i'm a fair haired and garden historian to hold its place in any historian those you begin you begin by knowing that history is there any patterns in history these are important to try to discern that history is noisy and irregular and just like people every event has special but nevertheless there are patterns in human behavior patterns in human evolution they're two greatest power so they are obviously the soviet union and the united states as surely a centerpiece of anybody's policy it would be to keep those countries in balance and and how the collision of our continued war in vietnam doing just the opposite i don't know all i can say is that while the war in vietnam

we have made as much progress in relations with the soviet union as at any time since nineteen forty five when they read more if that evidence and i hope so but let's assume we don't have a clip of the poverty rate which is of course not considered in working with others liberation treaty is extremely important we have come to the us basically you come to a consular convention which was not easy in our country and we've come to an understanding which stems back of course to the cuban missile crisis but it was much reinforced in the middle east because of the mutual restraint an intense communication that's required to prevent conflicts in the world from engaging soviet union non state

as presidents and the state of the union message there are many unsolved problems between the two countries but i don't think that the difficulties between this over vietnam says for moving forward very important issues i don't know we'll have to see what happens after vietnam whether there any other great wins the self i should say there's there's one that is a test and it's a great test which is when they will now seventy eights and talk with us about the nuclear arms race in an artistic muscles by cbs they have both talk and the debate has been set and that is enormous test of our relations because if we don't get that under control were leveled both of those to spiral into a rather huge pile of extremely expensive next round of the arms trade the nuclear nonproliferation treaty does seem to avenge for the president mentioned the hope that he would have a preview

segments of the senate but in all truth could it be meaningful without china and france as well because i don't believe it is about to pass nuclear weapons out of the country's non nuclear countries commit themselves in the street not to accept nuclear weapons whether they're from what about what it really is is an understanding which will have to be made between the new nuclear powers and the non nuclear weapons powers the non nuclear weapons powers let go for nuclear weapons but there are conditions which are written and treating them which overthrew the right will prevail the nonnuclear states to say to say we shall not be denied not they say that

they put the nuclear states on notice you had better get on with arms control of this is taken out a preamble input as an oracle of the treaty let's take the case of japan would japan signed the non nuclear proliferation if we remove our our strength our shield as the president calls it from southeast asia that was only a question of japanese dancers you ask me i'd say that the world of non cooperation requires that americans previously reliable i very much doubt that without the strength and commitment of american nuclear powered agent a nonproliferation world's possible invasion and i say the same about nato because you see i what is it that lies behind them with all talk with all cause history can be abrogated in case of an extraordinary event related to the subject matter of the treaty that has a nuclear weapon

which buttons the supreme national interest well i suppose if you have a chinese apply nuclear blackmail against japan and missiles that might be such that or if there was an attack but also if we were to suddenly pull out the security independently world is the security at american guarantee security in germany in italy and western europe is the security director new year guarantee it doesn't extend our commitments but i don't think it's compatible over the long run with are not standing by art let me change change the approach to their questions on what you said i think people in the administration have said that the united states can be a mr fix it to the world of norwood be isolationism and eric a question of finding a road down the middle if we're not going to be most affected is it possible that we will have to get japan to

violate its work either bred constitution to have armed forces in asia it has its own self defense forces and it is going to undertake with respectable means certain the defense forces but they're the answer for japan is the general answer which i think we would give him which i suspect historians will regard most remarkable aspect of president on his foreign policy is and extremely conscious of exactly what you said namely we don't wanna returned isolationists but we cannot alone carol burdens of the world almost every move that he's made in foreign policy if you look at it closely it is a move to build the institutions and convert the way of handling our responsibilities of the world under water or was the community chest bass thank you i have a normal thing in the past was the united states and we have a great look after something that we've

brought for the first time and the second indian family last year not only australia and canada have been hit with japan and germany in italy everyone had a writer if you look at the distinctive character president johnson's policy like america it is to emphasize that we're the junior partners in the alliance for progress they do their job and their commitment to the people we will help and putin is all conducted little policy analyst in helping them get on with immigration making resources available that is their jobs and his speech on africa which is the first speech ever given by the american president that was what was the you africans have to build your own institutions work together will back to the new asian that's emerged which is recognized equally of ourselves in the soviet union has really remarkable new development as one of its centerpiece the cooperation clearly for the first time in history among

asians for asians asia's been almost a a western phrase but now you've got all manner of new asian institutions and there are many other examples of that be what president johnson's pattern which elaine for the future is if you like the pattern of the asian development bank we have twenty percent japanese have twenty percent destinations forty percent twenty percent from outside the year always patterns look logical and some it was a beautiful but from the outside looking in on they seemed to be twisted and distorted irrevocably by the centrifugal force of the conflict in vietnam at least early africans and i've heard latin americans and i'm sure you have to say you could help us more you would help us more of the word for that i don't believe that's true when is the opening i'm not asking you to her to use their crystal ball but

how and when is the conflict in vietnam war and it i don't know i think i can say i think how i want to look like a lion which is the ceo of the agreement of nineteen fifty four which defined the seventeenth powers the effect of boundary between north and so we reinstalled sixty two will be reused three installments of the phillies will get out laos where they should not be and the people in the south will have a chance in peace to make their own nation but when that's going to come about in the process there was a dispatcher today ordering an official hanoi newspaper to the effect that the president's allusions to vietnam and the state of the union or insincere and that the war would go on unless

the united states' halted the bombing of the north and rejected in effect the san antonio form does this have any iran does this change the coloration of the situations to watch as you know we are trying to establish whether what they've said in the trim formula what the president said of san antonio's compatible and when those expirations are completed the president said he'd report and i think that's were better leave tonight does that mean that we can't discuss that aspect of it because the the year of probing is too delicate you that national security in baltimore or is it is it is that the case the new reasons or simply as a second rescue the president said were recovering and we have nothing to reporters the government and the president will let the people know that company and five years ago maura give or take a few months ago there were seventy american dead in vietnam and now there's something like sixteen thousand

and seventy billion dollars invested are we better off yes we are because if we hadn't seen it through and get no we would buy this time in my judgment i've been involved in a much larger war over the fate of all of southeast asian indians have come through yet know what theo of these things take time but what happened of course was in nineteen sixty four in the wake of the political unrest of sixty three the north it was decided we need to find a new kind of war and they did for think they opened the trails in watts which you know has been used infiltration into roads and which folks could run they shifted on the heavy weapons from captured french and us weapons they greatly enlarged and the seeming force units and they began to bring in during nineteen sixty four regular north vietnamese units in the

south ever came to drive for total victory and they came a lovely place in early sixty five on the basis of what you just resign you think that that that europe that the policy that you advocated when you came back from vietnam in nineteen sixty one with john taylor reported that president kennedy do you think that theory that the bombing of north vietnam has been justified look what they just look down into that area this happened in nineteen sixty four we didn't begin the bombing killed sixty five guesses is perfectly clear from the evidence that they've been they made these decisions to enlarge the war they made these decisions to bring in these forces before we ever laid obama north vietnam but there was a report in the paper this morning an official i concede that they have pushed to no divisions are elements of truth of the visions into the area near the northwest corner so they're engaged now in what they call the winter spring offensive sixty seven sixty eight

which then which there telling their people something that's worth all of our people understand that we are saying when apollo stops this week then where to negotiate a coalition this coalition government will read as follows we won't keep most of our we will have a figurehead non communists who will get the americans to hold and then we will take over the country this sequence of the wetter spring offensive is called decisive victory and they say why karajan finally free now they say the american forces have to prepare for reading of what other big shows were reinforce the initiation coalition government would have the americans general and will take over then that's not only been a shooting position those of the instructions and guidance and if you like a pep talk your colleague assistant secretary bundy a buffer for asian affairs the state department

said something the other day to the effect that we must avoid something that would be a cloak for meaningless ago she agents which raises the question as to whether the administration thinks that by saying publicly that it's for negotiations that it's got itself on a limited didn't want to get on that it would be better off of it photo you or me every word of which has meaning what's polk negotiations which means that the timeline between association the bombing and the opening of negotiations with the short it's pretty obvious what about the talks with a productive and then there is a presence in the city and was a reasonable hope after that they could be productive before the event and also he has been he says protecting the concept that he's not going to live through when joe does it have to be only the american an or the south vietnamese definition of productive no i think that everyone over the productive negotiations it's one where two sides'

positions and they seek navy through tough negotiations to reconcile i'm productive negotiations if one side comes in with four points fourteen and just every morning whose unstable that state where you're going to buy my position they're flat on actress and says that her that history has proven negotiating with a common is that they know that they come in deliberately with an unproductive you are they may come in addition to that we've had some negotiations which were or unsatisfactory with communist powers and some that were satisfactory take the austrian treaty negotiations actually renegotiation and nineteen sixty two when laos was a very satisfactory negotiation but they never honored the terms of a free day i would say more experience has been when agreements with communist party which on paper read that were on earth and one of the things you think about hard is how to make at a negotiation and

southeast asia i don't want to tread the tissue paper of diplomacy but i want to try to get something clarify ambassador bolts from new delhi what upton own band to talk to pretty enough the other day about the problem of the border particularly and i suppose in general cambodian american relations how is it possible after that communicate was given jointly offered an agreed upon by both governments that we've had such diametrically opposite interpretations of them in the press is this our fourth in the press it hinges i think on the community and work so secretary william bundy said war is said to have said in a statement about that time preserving allegedly are oh right of hot pursuit can you clarify that somehow whether it's tissue paper or not you're treading on something

and what i will say is i hope a lucid and helpful at the present stage we are agreed on one point which is the proper next moves to make the icc international control commission work we are engaged both countries cambodian united states we are in contact with the members of the acc we have not given up hope this piece of international machinery which was meant to protect the integrity of cambodia under these circumstances will work and to get back for a moment to the relations between moscow and washington the two biggest powers would it not be logical and you said earlier that sometimes things don't work out too orderly i would not be a logical to us all that a settlement in vietnam

he even had some sacrifice to us would pay off on the other side of the balance in better relations with moscow particularly in view of moscow's split with the chinese island no no evidence that position we have certain big issues that this issue i referred to a bmi cpm problem of dampen down by agreement says no is there an issue that goes to the resources available both countries it goes to the whole sheet of diplomacy and military situation world goes to liability if you like of the nonproliferation treaty i just don't see why the soviets if they are prepared to negotiate on this very difficult that would let the question were vietnam effect and i don't believe they will you have said in the past that mahler is riding a wave of the past that he's

got a great internal troubles under those conditions even granted that they are an incipient nuclear powers are any justification for spending money on an anti missile system against the chinese yes despite their internal difficulties they're real have concentrated resources including a lot of scientific and engineering and making nuclear weapons delivery there is a time period here until they get to a nuclear capacity of a certain scale which maybe ten fifteen twenty years in which offenses too could provide us with an extra margin security and provide an extra margin of reliability in our role of being the nuclear deterrence power in asia pacific so that without overdoing it i do think it makes sense within the last several days the paper has been circulating in washington called the bermuda paper a group of men named clinton

or wood ridgway the former commander in korea and under the auspices of the carnegie endowment for international peace met in bermuda and death it worked out a position paper of modification of the american position namely cessation are not sufficient but de escalation of all offensive actions in the south and the cessation of bombing of the north to date on a special cbs news report on television and bachelor reischauer former best to russia ordered japan was not harvard and senator robert kennedy both said that we should stop the bombing there these are respected minds some of them with political orientations someone with great military and asian expertise or should these opinions be disregarded there are

the early misguided know i think that there is no opinion unstated is an examiner listen to it i think the propositions over suspicion of bombing other and suspicion of what are called offensive operations in the south have been examined most carefully in the administration and in the field by general westmoreland and others with respect to a bombing cessation the problem is says is relatively simple none of them and you've mentioned bear the responsibilities of energy you get men in the field and he's going to say what will happen to my main man i'm responsible for having that of my finding allies to mine and if i lived communally the burdens imposed on and you got seven hundred thousand in pineapple know if i tell him i'm stopping i've got to be able to answer the question how many of those men are coming so i got

mad at the dmz they've been shelling across that they're violating this am i put myself in a position where if they shall across the dmz i cannot show and if this information's across the dmz and icy they're sending i can live on them before they get out my man the questions that have to be out soon and they are they got a beat that have to be answered by any responsible one of the things that i can't understand is this we send troops to an area vietnam to execute a pulse and he then the policy becomes the defense of those troops how do you break that vicious circle and were almost at the end of our own circle of torture and the policy is to preserve the independence of south vietnam laos and make good the agreements that were signed that's the policy we have them in there to make good that policy which is the way president eisenhower and the senate overwhelmingly defied the american

interest thank you very much mr russell are out of time this has been another and the continuing series of experimental interconnected broadcasts produced and edited for public television by phoebe broadcast laboratory of an et it's been as bishops be nice be the pope but shiller says this was received from the public television stations in san francisco denver houston about them with the main washington they'll salute public television station kqed in salt lake city

celebrating its tenth anniversary this weekend in addition to the salt lake city area you we'd be television program the areas of idaho montana wyoming and colorado we continue doing it and the real reasons the television video on the war is an unconventional adult and analysis of the other jazz critics and christina eighteen create it's been

saying it is sunday january twenty four years but