Public Broadcast Laboratory; 109

it's both forty years is a blt public broadcast station is an experiment in public television combining elements of information education and i think maybe i'll walk over to developments which this week became more important for americans to respect for the next forty five minutes video will report on the roman catholic church in america have the challenge to church authority by priests amounts of billing that we will examine the question are airplanes that have that with the morgan's personal point of view or the remaining hour wont broadcast the veil that michael brunner dewine one american goal objective that thinks he'll be in vietnam these negotiations experts in new york boston and san francisco was even alive issue right

now for the next forty five minutes the males report on the challenge to authority within the roman catholic church and they've been in the last two years the roman catholic church in the united states has faced a great challenge to its authority for italy in earlier years non catholics have expressed the belief of the church's power or the quality of life in american society of bend to write but this time the challenge to the church's authority has come from its own lehman and priests this past week the bishops who ruled the catholic church in the united states responded to that challenge with a pastoral letter that warned against destructive and hostile attitudes within the church the public indications of this tissue they are the base over birth control and whether pre should be allowed to get married there is also another issue some priests are questioning whether the church is relevant to the problems today nowadays when i leave the

priesthood as they're doing in increasing numbers they don't have other vociferous laughter the pastoral letter from the bishops this week called these former priest derelict and the source of scandal female broad cross section of catholics together in a studio in new york to refer show a brief ill afterwards an open forum for priests and then still the priesthood expressed their bitterness of the lack of freedom in the catholic church roman september fifteenth nineteen sixty seven book called sex blesses the crowd in st peter's square and the pomp and ceremony that has been a way of life the roman catholic church for centuries the teachings of the church hall that the pope is the direct successor to st peter receive his authority from christ after the pope the bishops are next in line of authority in the church with the present layman following the teachings of the hierarchy it was this tradition that has given the church it's monolithic appearance and some believe its strike but others believe the tradition was held back the

church in many areas where it might've progress calls predecessor john the twenty third row of a monolithic religion i made it clear that he wanted in his words to open the windows of the church and what the fresh air and chanting the ecumenical council not going to bring about an updating of the church and to bridge the gap between the church and the non catholic world consider extra for internal injuries probably exceeded all else but john plan to revise church doctrine the pope while retaining his position the final authority would share with the bishops the past the southern church policy this climate with strong opposition from conservative members of the hierarchy especially the curia or central administration of the church in rome pope john died in nineteen sixty three before he could complete his report a pope who follow john paul the sec acclaimed successor not only in a foreign aid but also in ideas

however many church liberals today feel that paul is more conservative on doctrinal points than john i feel the pope paul was not followed through in the spirit of updating earlier this year on the steps of the library at catholic university in washington students sign about freedom and refused to go to class is unless there was more academic freedom this revolt symbolize the feeling on the part of many layman and clergy of the hierarchy was not moving fast enough to carry out the reforms are approved by the ecumenical council there is another example or rebellion this fall despite the fact the pope also issued an encyclical stressing the importance of celibacy for the clergy more than three hundred priests from all over the country not at the university of notre dame to express their desire that members of the priesthood be allowed to get married this conference is just one of muddy indications of the revolution that was going on with in the church i'm alive for a priest and that's where i am right now or will be tsunamis illegally and sees today's

america shareholders walking around oh crying in mourning for sentimental and personalized and i was a big risk and loving woman was a hell of a lot better risk than this low debt that i have seen other guys be on drying up of personalities the not caring impersonal isn't a substantive yachts in cottages been building a great big causes for guys were bundled price and eight and they're only monument is a building i think that all this style like his bed sales guys believed that the real problem church today is the bishops really don't think in practice though in theory they profess to and perhaps i can get in power and has been speaking sincerely so i think the bishops really implies don't believe in peace if they get what

harm could ever changing along these men for the most part and trying to stay in the priesthood open the celibacy requirement will be changed but many are deciding they won't stay under any condition one priest allowed to be held to fill his last mass i am father bob russo i've been a priest and the diocese of homes that impulse of the past thirteen years approximately six months ago my bishop gave me permission for a leave of absence during this period also i've been employed by the office of economic opportunity in washington dc as of today i plan to discontinue all of my preferred option i was ordained this was the center of my life because i felt like this was a center of our religion that everything was oriented toward them as sir and i don't believe any such thing they know the real master is an organization an institution itself and i think because everyone

must be passed down through the years the authoritarian structure in any one thing is to break that structure then i think after we break the structure we are gone to the evaluation of individual believes like the mass i think it's important that people communicate with each other but i don't think they need a church or public really just pack as an excuse to communicate you know in any community it very convenient for people to go to church when he said the church to your friends it's time to dress up it's a place to be seen and it becomes a very social act which in itself isn't bad but it's associated with a kind of class distinction now as for the purpose of christianity religion get down to the nitty gritty work of bringing equality justice fairness and love to everybody and

people can go to church and disassociate themselves from that you ask any priest minister of the parish levee with her you know tell you what is in common i feel like they are the churches is not filling the needs of the people that day i think it's lost its relevance it's lost its relevancy because by nature to market it takes a feudal lords or approach to all times and that there's a priest of major general most people i feel like this has been a real obstacle because he isn't one of them he isn't one of them because he doesn't leave their current life i think the church is trying to stay alive this almighty power overlooking society and say come to us and we'll give you financial i think the fact of the matter is they're not getting further present simply say that i think that the greatest thing we can do the most creative thing we can do for

mankind would be carried on a kind of war of attrition new workers to walk out the door and erin to live with the whistles was like there so that fans of the house into summer was muscular that not only was about that i think these lessons six months have been the greatest days of my life were you doing out and i'm working for the office of economic opportunity up before i left all of my friends i suppose the last few years have known my thinking and certainly i've been labeled as radical and i discuss this with many my late france and greece and that they gave me the mornings you know the first place i would like it out there in the second place i couldn't survive and happily i can say at least for six months i've been wanting to look over it's been great great as well i want you feel as a lot of work to do

well because in the first place i think that i can reach really reach more people reach reach them where they really are in recent where they heard the report underscores the whole church and you can experience this as you go along as some items in in the church we were meeting was supposed hurts hurts we created a lot of realtors and i'm talking about human hurts mommy was so hurt churchill state or you suggest about films that are so the walkout rate down structure view ferguson missouri state right now you observe and you're so just back down here shows it's an assertive state sorting bit if we see read all the indications that in my vices alone in that in june five percent increase for allowing opposite economic often guide the opportunity to help the people we were stepping up technical assistance division the project and we had many

priest of the first twenty eight applied people there were twelve priests there and i interviewed many of these great i know the prius are leaving stamen i think i should make clear before anyone else is tempted to allow them a lot so well the people who listen to the program or not be much less by the suggestion that the catholic church is not a monarchy as father moses is not all for caring about owning it and it shall be i suppose though until we reported that there was another jar of order and structure because of it is built on the goddess is she the head of the churches full price hit he gives orders like to representative on earth i would like to i agree with mr bozell and very enthusiastically that the church is authoritarian i would be hard to save the bay audie is that essentially you said that it is a monarchy with a presumption behind that was that was all that that we have a pattern the church upon state concept since late forties now

naturally when the church did proceed on the first christians began to express themselves and they began the process of the societal station they naturally looked to the societies around them which were not democratic societies and to some degree were in quotes i think that they'll be very difficult to say that they were not that there was no historical influence upon the formation of their officers yeah i think it is very very necessary in fact for us to re evaluate the position of official to eliminate it but so i asked whether or not we are bound by an historically conditioned interpretation of a ruler and whether that this is truly the christian ideal all whether there could be another form about whether the ideal of christ washing be a very dirty feet of his disciples all might not be regained and that the bishops might be seen as men in service not meant to dominate unnecessarily but meant to stimulate men to recognize the spirit wreaths everywhere in the church and so what we saw was that surely was remember the christ and the previous friday the church and

he was not ambiguous of optometry to the iranian message just teach like check in for leprosy was no mercy of messages and that is our writers to iran and peter peter they've accused the king and of the passenger going to the theater of the church is to say what's happened was i he said peter he's the king memorial show will borrow against their health or paternity leave the church stan norwood into all over the firm or reason as to respect to the character and he's such a modern balances but i'm also not saying that the church of the electricity because once again you're inflicting accepted stages that forms on and i'm not ready to accept that or what i feel that we must do is just we live in and try to get the authentic christian experience in our own modern terms i would not start a condition or was your father really do

look out long history of the church and her class at me say first of all since some people making personal statements that idea and praise and a sociologist in the campus of a large second personally i've been out there was quite a columnist chicago for a number of years and i really fail it being a priest there is terribly meaningful the i suspect that our age is perhaps more exciting to be a priest that has been for a thousand years and those swiftly carson not judge them but i do say that this is a terribly terribly challenging time for the church and a marvelous time to be a priest in my judgment those who leave a missing the point of our time like to comment on the style of art history and authority which seems to me here's the somewhat naive both historically and sociologically are first of all in the early church there was a vast amount of farms that we would call democratic bishops were elected well in the middle ages until the year and the fifteen sixty the

pope's never made a decision without consulting the carbon the college of cardinals st benedict in the weeds of this chapter of his who instructs his father adds that whenever they are to make a major decision affecting monastery should consult with all the monks including even the youngest and i know that if this advice a father benedict was followed in every rectory monastery seminary and an intensely office while we would laugh about ninety percent of my work someone to be back so how do you react to a certain way i probably knew describing liberals are probably at the bottom rung of the ladder idea i think of the church is to use a dried simile as a founder and ship and i'm not even interested in saving i think it's going to say it we mail from known and i think we ought to get out before it cites as a matter fact i think the most importantly a priest and then i'll reiterate this is to me and i think that's part of a revolution because i think we should break any structure

that is true and encroachment on human freedom than it is obviously and manifestly of the church obviously a manifestly encroaches upon human free and to assume that we can over two thousand years of the day for me is really now i can get anyone in answers to what would be the result of the revolution but i'd like to be a part of the revenues of forty thousand with no better alliances guy raz i'm not trying to make a happy ending this is my kind of consider myself a christian was forgotten forever priest in europe i would agree with father really about a family that i'm a priest and i'm happy to be one with him but i think there's an important distinction that we're missing what i object to was not my priesthood which is tremendously important to me and the church's tremendously important when i find burdensome and the problem in the church is the fact that i'm also a member of the clergy

about a class that has been created historically and which i'm identified with white obligatory celibacy which i'm identified with buy the clothing that i wear and it seems to me that my priest and was flowing the community as it's no limit and i agree would fall it really that it must be terribly exciting being on the university campus as a priest today and if one can break and be in their world as a priest or without being set apart as a member of a distinct class with all the cultural connotations that that has forced to enter society that has with an irish struggle back when an er prejudices you by the fact that you were of color it's not my priesthood that i do it's not my grandfather frank or that it's what i would like very much to be back and functioning as a priest that entirely new forms that are not so weighted down by the culture that we heard from many years it could well be the chicago area should give up on a

vastly superior pierre it seems to me it's exciting it apparently is not to win these kinds of changes all sorts of marvelous opportunities inside the church are serving human dignity and freedom not people you know father reese goes to school made his decision citizens now not about people on a question that they think is sinking than let them put it i just absurd but the ship is apparently been sinking for two thousand years and probably will keep iran apparently seeking for a long time but never quite goes on here and i think this is an extremely relevant like to make like to welcome you all over television the first of a priest who is good as a priest my failing first of all is celibacy is an issue much discussed and those who abandon and let's leave aside any moral issues are lack of moral integrity or moral integrity just on the face of it the argument that some of them

lies is that they are they didn't feel complete and as a person or they found celibate so selfish are cranky are inverted from selfish pig in very very people and i think it did and upon the person with his own individual commitment is now fully withdraws is commitment whether he's married or single he's going to be cranky your credit well those were not only with the church's position specific point one hours of the bishops of overstatement not a status of the original prisoner and our lives so that the braces think that the law will be changed their sadly disillusioned i don't anticipate that it will never happen i think the issue is much larger though than celibacy i got a cycle of the basic issue is a question of authority martin of the road open the protestant reformation should there be an external authority shouldn't the other directed or indirectly about the strike or if you could've been narrowed mostly crews are definitely what this way is a lot of talk about x priests and former priest my own position is that i

consider myself just as much a priest today is the day i was ordained my own situation is perhaps a little unique but i do correspond with my bishop at least once or twice a week we are very close and communication and he feels that while in the president structure i feel this way very much but while in the present structure i am not allow black sector mentally i'm not allowed on ordinary occasions to offer master their confessions are in an emergency according to canon law i could do this and it certainly hope that in the near future they don't want the prophet but i do hope to again be able to function as a priest certain mentally but i would say this year and not in the ordinary parish structure which i think is that only on update irrelevant and totally inadequate to deal with the problems of today i would say it would be if i were to function again but certainly as a priest would be in a secular university dealing with students in a very flexible

set off buses different set of be an interesting one to hear from you were one of the president went to college and now in lake closure working as a consultant for me job corps washington i want to say that i think it's exciting just to be a human being in nineteen sixty eight whether it's a priest or a sister are the church's i see a sitting around here everyone in this audience is the church's i understand that i once a clear that that set you mentioned that john oh john had opened the windows eric in the world that we're living in now is a difference world secular and its moralistic and we must become conscious of cherry we've had changed greatly evolutionary changes in the church even until league of first letter to counsel and you can correct me i'm not a historian utley did not as silva say

this with this debate going on and see i think that it's not the case of the liberal and it's not the case of the conservative that don't that it's greater than this i think that's the issue here certainly to serve doctrine of the social gospel and brought up a different figures is getting are strong but i don't think it's the back in the christ stress the most price if you only use it just love and go to allyson ledoux of music you make amends and that these people are not buying a bigger presumably would keep saying well there anymore then more just love this is they have a philosophy but the social gospel is not the purpose of religion really just a lot of god first and then you love your fellow mayoral forgot well we say and activate the bases and i'm wrong with their authority price of the church and youth authority this is the one big difference between the catholic religion and all other religions teach civil authority people will have a choice they can you know so i remember they show wasn't

or they can be counted and say i accept his authority and abrasions going all as authority they try to be as minors they can't they vote as much progress as the candidate in council and then people use a very gossamer thin and the bishops i don't feel this is fair to use their authority i think we first have to love ourselves because we have a chance to live in april and we love our present the love god before eleven they were like we have no chance that we love our neighbor you know is headed religion isn't it for years baseball how can i not but

everything i've done my time ok but i still believe very firmly that he set price they're loud and your neighbor in all of this is the hardest job you've got to do as himself you know your soul of the human being allowed yourself as a human being and you have no chance we feel sister was an institutional church that you can do that much you want it was was at camp and i'll i will be here the man to watch well i have the opinion for the good night ritual that one can't really commit one side of the church

it's a commitment history how does encroach upon you return freely chosen first for some not sure how about possibly i don't i really don't know what's twenty years and i just begged off on that point as of right now i think the most important thing in my life is to live with myself to make my thinking of my actions equal to my thinking and i just experienced hypocrisy all along the line i can't take three dollars for a mass for it because i don't believe that makes it really i can't throw a blessing on somebody's secondly that helps him i dont believe that until i can't from ast to ten people six thirty in the morning and when the church tells me to do that and i know this encroaches upon what i believe is really my actions are becoming equal to what i really think that i think honestly i just feel like this is my bow acts are not

subscribing this room priests are leaving london leaving the punch and judy has gone on manning's abilities and you know leaving because of the peanut showing syndrome or desert you can give grown men in the shu our state taxes primarily it was on sale and i think we've got to tighten the grand bargains and we got guys a low interest and nobody was on the tv and believe their own press relations like that on the california irvine the most out of guys comes up in ways that was a lie he runs an event many billions of write this big fight institutional the fallen into the time this is what her just because when you're like essentially leading a presence in our lives you know in france at the time of the revolution

you can our when you say why didn't i move them you're probably talk about my personal failure is probably one part i didn't care and move them and the second part is i wasn't able to move but there is there is i think there is some possibility that under the present structure i couldn't at least i felt that i think if you go back and police people and they came to my research and knowing full well why was going and where i was going and how common it would be i think they knew or they would testify that i tried hard to move to america and you got out and done something about this thing it going alvin ailey now we'll go into the

pool johnson city me are not going to go bail for that movement what i am sitting in a storefront a couple hours every of them oh well i'm saying is that within the structure of your free and a spirit you can do and i think i know the menu become known as homage or change because you're too far out the coach you walk ins fusion nina thank you and as the nomination all a castle i worked with over a situation in my town and almost got run out of families it was so entrenched that i just felt like why should i do all of these things when i can when i can withdraw to the parish keep a good financial statement and play a cool don't ruffle

waters and i'll make the hierarchy does in mice that was very good at my age and i know that in addition to the approval of ads because i know it what's your mother was such a mostly there's a leader of wanting to say something forceful to get everybody on and i think it made a statement before about this matter of conscience and theologian left in other parts of the country is now and he said i said is the christian ultimately responsible to go to the church and to god and he said that is responsible to his conscience now my church tells me that chrysler's within

and by confirmation of the spear and therefore i think that every man must live as he must live within himself if he chooses to go unannounced and then let's do this if this in two games is basically that he must abide by a honeycomb that's what the church tells me as a mortal sin as a muslim by mine i think we should not stand one in judgment against another not as christians you may alike to intrude in a low as britain has no i do not think that mankind in the democratic vote will prevent a man there are many things that god revealed explicitly they're not easy to live with we have to adjust we have to grow and gertrude berg is not is it weird to go against the grain very often to become good people but the grain is something that's outside of ourselves we just don't make our own wolves a lot of people

wonder if the authority of the church is actually breaking down because we see these social article studies one was just a few days ago so the more and more i catholics are protestant birth control what is your feeling about that certainly legitimate oh i think that this has become has reached the point of a tragic crisis is precisely because of fire it be traded solve to the extent that informing this dogmatic statement theologians were not in dialogue with people and the theologians who from their past or experience knew that this was a grave problem the trade authority by not making their findings known to those who should have known a bit so there was the breaking of the links were finally i think all the way along the line because of failure to understand before it as service rooted in what happened i

do i think implies a level of revenue what it meant when they are discussed the matter and cost of a movie in nineteen thirty one to take all the bishops in the whole world knew what sort of that when they that took a uniform position on that are all from the time that contraception became an issue around eighteen fifty until the recent unpleasantness the catholic church has a pollution on birth control it use mechanical contraceptives to be absolutely immoral quote don't take out a minute ticket only on the order of pope pope said possible that the georgians who matter are have actually he also settled before then that would please him of catholics of whom took a different view and that would show up what they haven't now all the traditional is very eager lane running off to congress is

unknown was suggesting that the full ticket dogmatic statement on this dogmatic statement on that are in my judgment it is not the worst part of a sort of a forum and subject to it up to show some respect for disappearing my name is a firecracker and the founder of an experimental community in new jersey against the wishes of my bishop so as a result he suspended may i find the authority to church oppressive and i think that there is a clear bright out of authority in the church will fall a poll for example on the birth control issue continues to say that there is not a clear and that's the majority of people have already be ignored and everybody knows that theres an underground churches this thing in the united states where priests and groups of laypeople are getting a gathering together to celebrate the liturgy in a meaningful way and try to discover the meaning of the christian life without being tied straitjacket

into everybody knows that there are many other examples of people just turning off the authority the church a recent issue of common wheel indicated that the young people but in an article called generation of what an interesting survey young people simply indicated that that was always important for only one but that's his back if he likes it you can have you know i just think that i left the authority the church begins to learn how to buy a lock and speak meaningfully after listening that there will be no hope for still settlers on the couch and i think i can speak the people that my age i would like a generalized that you just did madeleine foote was saying here no one has defined authority and went on to fight with rt as opposed to freedom and no structure and no government can survive this how the authority managers the freedom we

have and therefore the authority has to respect our freedom and give us the opportunity to exercise that freedom in a meaningful way by means of guidelines not by a set of abstract rules which they make up by themselves apart from the considerations of the people within the church who are also the church celebration not about that's only incident less one small incident but what the fact is that we as a family present mention that if you get it what power structure and especially if you're karen and in this part of the country you're cured fried a longtime at the age of forty five you can still be required to get permission to change the coke and a coke machine and you're treated in a completely childish fashion and it is degrading to a man who was supposed to be a leader to continue to be treated like a child or so he needs another party which respects is dignity and that's what i think has been lacking in the church we have not respect the dignity of the late people or of the priests

those who have been an authority to consider their authority absolute as coming from god and the people it had been all too willing to turn over as in the grand inquisitor the cst pointed out that people have been willing to turn over their freedom in order to have some easy way of dealing with the problems of bright light rather than having to respond authentically to life out of a genuine conscience and an honest faith in st paul minnesota or jittery bishop james p shannon a member of the executive committee of the american hierarchy watched this discussion with the real national editor john wick line which criticism do think is more of our father was so so far the hackers oh i say very definitely that father hefner presents the case in my opinion better than father grew so that is unfair to his fellow pastors for example we make such a sweeping statement as ask any priest as he have a good marriage and he will immediately respond with its financial report i say

balderdash the average praised the aisle to home that question would be put would respond and say my parish has these characteristics and he would talk in the term in terms largely of the the condition the conditions for leading a good life within that community that once upon a time this caricature was true it's not true now what issues that follow half represents do think the trick to order a dress itself to work at a central question that he's talking about is the proper relationship where you are putting away the conflict between the desires of an individual person for his own growth development self fulfillment and the demands made on that person why the institutional church is freedom suppressed as was indicated in this discussion i don't think so i think there is oppression of freedom

in different ways one must be very careful and using terms like that because state in bali like this it sounds like a very damaging accusation there is a certain a limitation of freedom which must willingly under law daily in our relationships with other people we inconvenience ourselves for the benefit of others or for the benefit of some program which we consider worthwhile and there is a constant giving up of our own desires and our own wishes in lots of little things but i think how should i put it the freedom which is being sacrificed it seems to me among a good many of these people in the church today is not being sacrificed by the directive of someone by the pastor or by the bishop or buy sell order of the church but is being compromise or qualified by traditional molds of acting

a young man who wants to try some experimentation and let's stay in the field of the killers who is trying to do it within the limits laid down by the vatican council on the degree in them oftentimes such persons run into the criticism well we've never done it this way implicitly it seems to me in the directives of the vatican council is a new willingness for some degree of experimentation i'm not speaking of throwing the rules out the window or of every man being his own poll or over completely and structured church but a little more flexibility a little more leeway allowed for creativity and then the nation and for discussion on issues which are discussing will is there anything in the church that does not discuss or i don't think so i'd only thing that does not discuss the church catholic adults i've known to have said that in many instances when they were growing up they they felt they looked upon a priest as the

ultimate authority in the church matters and then society matters almost as they might look upon the pope many speaking at the feeder do you think of this still exist today now i think that's changing i think the observation of your friends is factually correct historically correct and was true in the days i was growing up too this very great veneration for the person of the priest or his priestly powers for what he represented for the sanctity of his own life for the ideal which the dedicated priest represents in society now in our society and the role of the priest is changing this is one of the reasons for so much personal anguish in the lives of many many good priest today who are not insured today as they were a few years ago about the precise function or functions which they are the performances i recall i was first ordained i was sent to the country as an administrator of a small parish and that the people are unfairly

been frightened in the depression and wouldn't put their money in the bank and they trust that the priest and the priest was their banker an eerily cigar boxes in the house with labels taped on them whose money this was well as you can see that this is an excessive reliance on the prisoners banker financier economist and so one will ever come a time when the parishioners elected bishops i would hazard the opinion it's not unreasonable to guess that there might be a change in this in the distance to travel forcing one just over the hill there is incidentally there's a lot more democratic and machinery in the selection of bishops than the average person is aware of how slept on it's done by my ear interview by balance of by a questionnaire is my letters by secret correspondence but because it's kept secret the extent of the research on a given candidate's fitness for the job is not know is it research among bishops or do other layman become all its research fellow bishops

its research fellow pastors into a vault i don't know that they do and i know that they don't at the present time i don't know of a sufficient number of examples that was this is not a part of this secrecy bit in the church were very fond of secrecy and catholic church as you probably know many a non catholics think that they see the catholic church still trying to impose its authority on society generally do think that this is a viable criticism i don't think it is anymore this was a very valid criticism of much of the legislative efforts of the catholic church in the past in this country particularly in areas were catholics when mary be strong and able to influence legislation and thereby impose on the city or the state laws which were valid for catholics and within the understanding of the catholics responsibility but not acceptable to persons who are not catholics generally the trend is away from this there are

several instances in the last couple of years were catholic bishops and priests and leaders have led movements in the states to rescind north to modify laws of that kind so that i think people who are making their criticism are not quite with that now activision thank you just deployed is this our experts examination only option for peace in vietnam begins an approximately fifteen minutes now from washington reporter jon alterman says the wire at our airplanes say how many miles have you flown the sheer if you're one of the growing army of regular air commuters the answer is probably in the thousands for nineteen sixty six americans registered ninety four billion miles in the air and the trend is awkward the sheer the carriers transported one hundred and thirty six million paying passengers almost all of them

made the trip and comfort and safety played by nothing worse than an occasional doris day comedy but when tragedy does strike the public is confronted with an aspect of air travel which most prefer to ignore this newest film of the nineteen sixty five crash in salt lake city reinforces the image of the all or nothing catastrophe in truth this accident like most crashes was classified as survivable the plane crashed with ninety one person's onboard months of painstaking investigation by the civil aeronautics board which show that almighty one survive the impact yet only forty eight people emerge from the wreckage alive the investigators concluded that heat and smoke containing cyanide and other toxic gases overcame many of the passengers and prevented their escape ms bui says the federal aviation agency tass still seven months before the salt lake city crash the faa conducted this test in the desert outside phoenix filming with stop motion cameras the

agency deliberately crashed a robot controlled a four engine passenger plane for the passenger load of dummies the craft was equipped with several experimental safety devices home battery of measuring instruments i mean you know a very slow motion cameras demonstrated while a plane may seem consumed by flames that within that plane the initial damage to life and limb may come from flying objects such as baggage from the seats themselves hear the seeds not only failed to push an impact on the whole their passengers but actually flail there are damaging effects team i mean among them the faa has sometimes been accused of concentrating its research on preventing fractures and neglecting the question of survival but the real time lag may be

impacting on research was more than two years after this task but the agency established new rules and seek positions in the securing of hand like then as now the main problem of survivable crashes remained evacuation stewardess iris peterson has investigated many such crashes the airline pilots association accident reports that i have grey and arm of the impact that that idea worked on a headband most of the passengers have survived impact of the reason that some of the passengers are laughing into primarily to fire and he within the cabin because they can't get them out quickly and people can just breeze superheated air and sea or their lungs that can be fatal if there is a fire the aircraft can burn through quite rapidly and nine hundred and twenty seconds is too long a period of time to expect people to be able to stay inside of america can

survive you have to have not in ninety seconds or there's very little chance that they can survive if you have that fire how feasible is evacuation president faa rules still require that one hundred and twenty two passengers be evacuated from this plane and one hundred and twenty seconds on new planes the time when it will be nine e seconds the standards have been tested and met by industry but critics question how realistic they would be in a smoke filled atmosphere of panic there are new rulings on the marquee and lighting of exits but they are not mandatory until nineteen sixty nine at the case of faa safety programs has been criticized by certain members of congress most recently representative richard odd injury or voting tests by outside organizations are dangerous side of the composition of the interior claims the safety hazards and a possible stumbling block to evacuation are ready for work the policy could be done

for example of one of these gets catches fire the chances of anyone surviving are very seriously diminished because the interior of these lines contains asarco's request saw cyanide gas and i'm told that let's talk about cyanide gas the injury one jet to be humble about what really cyanide pills that are using the death house it's a great president and i think that's inexcusable the faa or just the material test of that the importance of having a fire resistant material is by resistant nobody bothered to test for toxicity they didn't even make the tesla while analysis of the airline pilots association and so ralph nader divides his criticism about equally between industry and the faa at princeton recently in a speech replete with descriptions of soft pistons later recounted what he called a case of willful negligence he sarcastically describe the agency's eventual disciplining about us and division

of general motors and in march of this year thirty eight people died because crack was one is called the softest and phenomena which permitted the proponents to come loose and written to the fuselage oh this was as component built miles and division of general motors and the ulster division in effect before the crash did not recommend the operatives claim that they be disassembled or for inspection ground in the system so thirty eight people got the federal aviation agency the fine general motors eight thousand dollars after steadfastly refusing pressure to reduce the five four thousand dollars the events to which mr nader refers began here in indianapolis when our son received word at allegheny had discovered what seemed to be a soft piston and one of the propeller assemblies there is an faa man on full time duty at this plant but during the seven days before the lake central question no one in the faa was

informed of the danger days after the crash thousand notified the faa would probably grounded all suspects planes and eventually issued a reprimand described by mater i talked with faa spokesman clint walker about the agency's rulemaking process and ask him why they're sometimes seem to be such a time lag between investigation and regulation this board now and on

now to congressman on injured downstream is often just too far down he feels that the agency waits for direction from industry instead of offering the regulatory agencies like the faa always tend to become captives of the industries that they regulate that's been so very much with the faa doesn't like to do things to the displeasure of the airliner is a general eric industry association also the faa and not the one of the running the aria that you just heard people using the aviation industry and last year the airline industry's spent one hundred and fifty million dollars on advertising many like nader wonder how often those ads mention the word safety maybe i'll ask for comments on the report you

have just seen from united airlines the allison division of general motors the air transport association and the federal aviation agency all these organizations declined the vail remains willing to provide responsible spokesman with an opportunity to present their views on this subject on a subsequent broadcast adam now from washington here is edward lee morgan's personal point of view is congress necessary except for three hundred forty days last year though many members attended every is a three day week in that long serving the legislators late more eggs so to speak then they attacked they introduced more than fourteen thousand bills passed less than five hundred almost half of them private bills a favor for example some constituents immigrant cuts with its more regular prayer accomplishment the second session of the many of congress faces among of unfinished business tomorrow some

observers argue congress simply can't cope with these talks it won't even modernize its tedious roll call procedure or thirty three state legislatures and install electronic commerce just be voting on bills that leadership seems out of touch with reality house speaker mccormack at seventy six and senate republican leader dirksen seventy one a living says a younger colleague in another a ch yet our society must be doing something right and a bestseller in europe all the american challenge french editor jonathan tjarks about schreiber is amazed by the united states creative how ironically no governmental power welcomes gritta says we deplore moscow's imprisonment of dissident russian writers and others before washington's growing hostility to dissidents on vietnam pressure can register gadfly ralph nader now says the fish packing industry smells and so the white house draft the bill for tougher inspection but representative government only

works when those represented the man forever representation there are hundreds of lobbies for special interests but the public have to lobby for itself congress can settle the war in vietnam but it should not be allowed to use it as an excuse to neglect the war on poverty at whole sargent shriver told the deal here last week that an enemy could be liked by the smart use of eleven billion dollars less than half the money cost of vietnam congress gets all the monetary crisis but it can strengthen the dollar with tax reforms plugging such loopholes as those allowing some americans to make a million dollars a year and still pay no income tax at all congress alone can restore public confidence in government can help by adopting a code of ethics for its members however president johnson assesses that wednesday night the union isn't a dangerous divisive state and congress reflects in the face of clear danger to americans in the past have managed to unify themselves ironically crisis surrounds

us now but congress doesn't seem to see or sense the urgency for solutions to poverty racial tensions of cruelty religion of the human spirit and they get neglected his problems will only multiply in thirty years' time the us population will approach three hundred twenty maybe it's a cliche to say the american system faces a critical test but it's all it's also true that especially in an election year the public has a responsibility to arouse itself and like ralph nader blow the whistle on injustice and fuzzy leadership or sly and shoddy practice and eight when the system does work but it takes work more than just dialing the phone companies proposed new emergency number nine one one and hollering how that's the shape of this observers point of view a station identification

safety

systems former for the deal for the past year how his position on negotiations with united states has been this if the us as the bombing there could be talks fourteen days ago north vietnam made this significance which if the us as the bombing there will be talks over this afternoon on abc uses you as announcers senate majority leader mike mansfield replying to a question whether he favored stopping the bombing and i went and i think that now that the north vietnamese ship adapt on the use of the conditional good to the positive wealth and that it's been corroborated twice in the north even the foreign minister made that suggestion that we are through the strange mesa least worthwhile to try to sort out realistic american

objections in any such talks and discuss as well just how they might be achieved in negotiations in a press conference for days after not isaac burns which a position secretary of state dean rusk with the us attitude this way wikipedia and the use of the word girl will instead of poet sings to be a new formulation that particular point but that leaves many questions still open and that we need to clarify what else goes along with it and what that would in fact the economy is going to be premature for me to the biases aside as deliberately and the way i when i asked the captain watson about these things if it does represent a a moment that we're interested in winston salem tonight the bls brought together a group of distinguished specialist will try to anticipate some of the practical problems the us might encounter showed that probe be successful and negotiations got underway in

new york professor arthur schlesinger jr of the city university of new york distinguished historian who served as a special assistant to presidents kennedy and johnson nineteen sixty one to sixty four michael forestall a lawyer and specialist in american policy views of a vietnam who advised presidents kennedy and johnson on a national policy and for a time had the vietnam working team at the department of state from boston professor thomas shelling them harbored a distinguished economist who has served as a special consultant to both the departments of the state and defense and an authority on the strategy of international bargaining professor milton saxe of brandeis who spent nineteen sixty five and sixty six in south vietnam and who has been a close observer of enemies communism since nineteen forty six in san francisco brigadier general samuel big ruckus a retired marine officer who for years has been a student of asian military

affairs and his latest book is on the chinese communist party is now with the hoover institution at stanford robert scallop you know a political scientist at the university of california at berkeley who specializes in asian politics he edits asian service and has written often on the far east professor henry kissinger was called to washington for official consultations and will not be able to appear as we had hoped moderating tonight's discussion as dr karl case and director of the institute for that study at princeton and from nineteen sixty one to sixty three a special assistant to the president on international security problems not because we're assuming but the bombing has stopped in the lingo see asians have begun we wish to explore two sets of problems what should the goals of the united states to be in these negotiations what problems of tactics procedure mode of action will face is

when we get into a negotiation in north vietnam i should like to call on each member of the panel to open up by giving us a brief statement of his views on the central problem on these two issues and i want start with mr stout they know in san francisco the piece by the pope he's been worth less but the point general worth is

the one to take up from there professor sachs he would take out the point as to what you think the to chief issues are in barrels and tactics well at least the fargo concerned i think that there are really three objectives that we should strive for the first given your primary assumption that the bombing is not that we are back to negotiations first the record for immediate cease fire so that the killing will stop the second would be the effort to solve the problem of south vietnam within the framework of self determination which i wouldn't take to mean at a minimum the existence of a non communist government in south vietnam with participation

worked out for the year la forces that are indigenous to south vietnam and thirdly the major issue of a structure in southeast asia that will guarantee peace for that area exposing the three major goals in negotiations professor showing the one take captain and to put your view of the major goals i remember are in the way too and all parties recognize of the national liberation front should have some organized nonviolent political world of clay and i saw that none of this may mean new elections may mean even changing the constitution so that the mls can participate non violently in some kind of election the second quarter parallel go he's defined a military arrangement that minimizes the likelihood that either side will double crossed the other

that may mean both sides not withdrawing with sticking around with some military force for a fourth time as jafar stall would you want to comment on the present tension of goals that we've had to use which are really somewhat at variance with each other one which emphasizes procedures both political and military one which emphasizes substantive goals how would you strike the balance well i've i think i've sort of follow on with what the mazda shelling i just said i think the overall goals in that area in the world the united states is to achieve that reach a situation where we recognize the practical realities of both the current politics in southeast asia and in asia as a whole more specifically i completely agree with professor shelling that it probably is essential in any

negotiation to expect to come out of it with some type of political rearrangement a restructuring all of the south and quite possibly also the north also agree with him that night for a time some form of all the international or even american jewish a continuing presence in the area will probably be important i think the most important thing for us to do is to as soon as possible recognize the realities of the situation there and i understand that something like what happened in laos and what it what now exist in cambodia is going to be a little bit the shape of politics in south vietnam that issue as you are how would you characterize the point which we should emphasize keep in our minds when we're going into a negotiation i think that when we talk about a realistic negotiating those

leaning goals among other things which both assure our objectives in and buying are in our presence in vietnam in the same time have enough to stand a chance of being acceptable but to our adversaries this means i would think that we must relinquish the notion of the total military victory and the unconditional surrender or limit i think if we are realistic the four songs the shelling of proposed in seeing they unattainable is a total military victory but then our objective should be the creation of a political structure in south vietnam which would make possible a peaceful political competition among the various troops in south vietnam including dan l f and in order to prevent reversion the guerilla warfare terrorism would seem to me that the withdrawal of american forces would have to be phased over period and then they should be replaced by a military presence that's something the un about

somalis and presence of some sort i think that is the direction which things should move about bad that it seems to me that this is in the end a vietnamese problem and the sooner that they negotiations can be conducted as much as possible by the vietnamese themselves the better chance it seems to me to be for an enduring solution mr sachs since we seem not to be able to hear from san francisco i think i'd like to ask you to come back in follow along this divergence it seems to me that you were the only one of her three speakers was emphasized a specific goal not a process everybody say let's get a government which reflects the balance of political forces you said let's get a non communist government are those two positions contradictory or can they be reconciled how do you view that

my reason for stating a non communist government because i firmly believe that a majority of the people of south vietnam they do not want to live under a communist regime that there has been no evidence to date that the us such as the case sometimes using the work were practical realities what people mean is that you want to make concessions in terms of military strength of the other side that they're normal political position on the competition on some formal voting would not get them another is a price that one must pay for the stronger position militarily at the viet cong that liberation front as i see no contradiction i'm perfectly prepared nice thought up by saying that i believe in self determination for the vietnamese in so far as it also believe on the base of my experience not to the nation that a majority of people south vietnam i'm not pro communist knows i did not use the word hippie communes from south vietnam i think that the minimum goal with united states not just simply in terms of practical realities because that can also mean a decision on the audience breaks to let down the people of south vietnam in terms of their commitment to the

existence of a regime that affords them a degree of liberty and freedom and that's why i use the word non communist there is no contradiction that if you understand what i have to say as the existence of a majority in south vietnam who do not want to live under a communist regime mike forster oh what your view where the majority want to live under a communist regime or not is that a question which we now know well yesterday's night i perhaps haven't been as long and expert marie that's not a tall expert on these problems relate but i'm sure of one thing i don't know what the people of south vietnam a lot i would have some difficulty with the term letting the people of south vietnam down because i'm not quite sure what that really means and not for example or certain that we have yet to devise we americans ways and means of determining approved in any degree of useful for safety

of the art the political attitudes or feelings of the people i do agree to live with mr sacks a lot if you if you put the thing in terms of communist or non communist and that case might be can be made to and i must be made that the south is not a completely willing to accept dictation from illinois but beyond that i would have a lot of trouble getting a niche issue rising or do you think the present government in south vietnam representative in a sense we've been talking about of the sentiments of the population though i think that no government funds in saigon has really represented the many and whatever sense as possible and vietnam the feeling of the people in general that damaging for example as a government which rests on the landlords who did not represent the villages and never had strong support in the countryside of a successor james have even had less we sold

in the last couple weeks when the proclamation of the fourteen roman catholic bishops of south vietnam of the extent to which they present government has lost the confidence well very important elements in a vietnamese population they do not have the confidence of many of the buddhist groups they have them did not have the confidence of the catholic league is they do not have strong support in the inn in the village villages on the country said so and in a sense would seem to be hard to claim it the president of vietnam is effectively well representative a very much of anything doesn't even effectively represent the american view of it now is this a point of consensus that we have that's the one we need a government which can represent a broad variety of political opinions in south vietnam and to the present government does not do so do so you agree on that the time shelling

it is a representative government of south vietnam the country is so bitterly divided the viet cong and the regional his government consider each other beasts traders not good citizens and he's going to be a very unsatisfactory compromise question whether something unusual uncommon as governments china maginot the phones and what the alternative is i imagine also the baby was in the with a question presents itself to the month is easily the most we can ask for is it some decent political process by which some kind of represented the process leads to a government the government may not be representative of the can be represented process in the end the basic question is whether the national liberation front is willing to participate in what we would part of the government and whether the government's eye gone is ready to accord them the right as a political party to work participate in some kind of electoral

process surrounding app is the question of who double crosses whom will the war break out again as if either party thinks it may lose an election with robert you were war or in a time i think these are questions there really go to the tactical issue and the question of what's the goal former the goal we need a representative process for choosing retirement rather representative government i wonder if my friends in san francisco with whom we've reading contact can comment on that right now you know i'll rejoin the information and stories of transcontinental and drove down in my opinion the point the professor showing has just made is very important if we cannot retain the goal of privacy they represented the process and south vietnam and it does seem to me oh isn't plain than i can kearns of them in the professor's sachs in his judgment that if you can

ever represented process in the south the comments will not have a majority and what is going to be crucial at the informal negotiations particularly at the local and district level so that it seems to me there is a great deal of importance and staying with the goal of working for and forcible multilateral guarantees ensuring the territorial integrity north and south vietnam laos and cambodia in the creation of multinational forces if necessary on a temporary basis for the phased withdrawal of us and north vietnamese forces lose it seems to me our goals that are legitimate and that should be maintained a town you're cut off i think you have got two more words before we turn to the next nine guys i think you have to distinguish between the level of south vietnam the middle of the negotiations if there's an election outside wants to win that's obviously the

goal but we don't negotiate that are stifled when we negotiate some kind of process that will hopefully the fact i think we're agreeing on that on the difference between a process as our goal and the result of the process general griffith you i miss understand you in sharing that agreement or doughnut well i have to really get a chance to express myself that i would like to say that i agree a statement made by mr ferrara stall i think one of the most important things we must do is recognize the realities of power in southeast asia it wasn't so i know of the general job made this statement in his big victory great cats like quote the north calls the south answers obviously at all of the blowout in any negotiation is to

achieve this element perhaps not satisfactory but at least our world to ourselves and to the garden of south vietnam and of course this settlement would also have to be tolerable to the two other parties directly can say hanoi and be an ally on whether we like it or not and i'm sure we will not the settlement would also have to be channeled through both moscow and became what do you think these are the realities of power which perhaps the list of four sided mind which i think in the pocket in the process of negotiations when the starter people for us that you rise apartment tower ability to parties outside the immediate arena to mosque down again what you think what is the condition on a settlement that that might be different from what the parties inside vietnam war a dirty war that for general grievous well in my opinion taking doesn't want a settlement it's the

beginnings of that is not that was some of it i couldn't say what they're what made your fake it would require one negotiating a point she would she would come and she would put forth that i think this is jared academic question i think a does not want a war in vietnam so it was heard that it's not so and i commented on and i never get back and i'm glad that i say that i agree with general report i don't think that the king cove wants a settlement except on terms of total victory for my also say quite frankly what i'm not optimistic about how noise want in a settlement except on the same terms i think we started with and some up the mistake implications are going to have to be corrected because quite frankly i see no evidence either in the printed word or the statements over the radio that hanoi is

giving and i was interested in an ace substantive negotiations that would disturb her basic terms of stardom well i i feel that the way in which we find the discussion that should be but here too there's some virtue in asking the question where can they go see asians go we've heard a lot about the question of whether hanoi wants to negotiate or not i suspect that the anonymous here knows the answer that question and more discussion won't elucidated mike you have a comment on this earlier question of the parties who might have a view and might have an influence is set on the settlement and where they would want to come out thank you cried i just wanted to follow up quickly to say the dental records that are more bluntly and clearly but what i really was trying to say earlier

there are the political realities which include the problems of the interests of china the soviet union and of course are all week and just forget that i would suppose in the end we in the ultimate goal to which we are looking we ought to keep in mind that we've been through an exercise involving goals and negotiation someone like this before at least partly analogous and that was the louse the settlement allows problem if we keep in mind that at the edges of the united states really are not just to support particular political individuals abroad or to support particular things but that our principal interested to see to it that in that part of the world that are exclusive control from some foreign power or some foreign agglomeration including even the west is not so this and the pan asian that asia is lost or pushed out of that system of world

organization which we believe and i think quite rightly is essential to maintain peace in short he was not agree to any solution which let a large part of asia disappear from communication with the rest of whirl well i think we've come to the point where it's worth taking a minute to review where we are and to get from the question of gold to the question of means that there's been a team at a somewhat surprising amount of agreement but on one proposition that to the extent we can formulate an objective it's an objective about the kind of political process that we want to see go on in south vietnam the implication that i read into that statement is that we have to take their chances with the outcome of the process many of our panelists we're optimistic

about what the outcome would be if the process could be correctly designed and i think that's what we have come to that but they focused on the proposition that we have to think of the process and take their chances on the up now professor scalping own particular perhaps others who didn't have a chance to express themselves were skeptical about the premise and another way putting their skepticism i think is that it's not clear you can get there from here so i think that this is the point which take up the question how we start what are the tactics and let me remind you of the assumption that somehow we've come to the table we hadn't met of what the north vietnamese seats as international condition that matter what we think of natural condition we won't ask how that came about and come about why consumption and there we are

what we have to do first and water are worries about scalping i want to start off well i think that if we are at the table one of our worries is quite clearly that our opponents will simply sit there taking military advantage such military vans they can avoid them arrangements have been made and not be prepared to make any substantive concessions another of course is that in the process of negotiations the situation will be such that our allies and those non communists and softer long will become progressively discouraged we'll have the whole of developments and that they would have the iron discipline that faith and i in our group and that there will be a political

justification take place but no i just think closure on this one point this that once again i think what ever takes place in terms of national or cross country negotiations one of the most crucial elements in the scene is going to be negotiations at the regional and local levels between the government in hanoi and the broadening infrastructure that can be developed that all the disparate groups in the south and this could easily include local an ally of people too arthur you wanna pick up the thought of where we might go and what problems we would face if we spend go see it now articulating oh i would agree was a scallop you know and his emphasis on the importance of the potentiality of regional and local negotiations i think this is the situation is not one that's necessarily going to be controlled from a conference table we'll things done at a conference table might give a green light to other developments i disagree though i think

with what seems asserted unilateral impression that all the problems about are getting to the negotiating table or getting substantive results you know and i have no question and i urge is very anxious to have at the negotiating table the fruits of the total military victory i have the impression somehow that we are much the same as sells it was the interest on the part of our government in substantive concessions obvious if you're going to make sense if concessions he wouldn't announcement that's anna may well be that they are position is more flexible than it seems that one reason why i would question whether more flexible and seems a bizarre obvious lack of desire to get to the year negotiating table today as for what was going to happen in south vietnam the suggestion that an alley people of south vietnam of operating with such an iron discipline that if they get further discouraged does that make any difference as easily very surprising from someone knows as much about self hypnosis is galloping at us

back of the matter is in someone's more americans there he killed in self vietnam and south vietnamese are drafted now the government in south vietnam is not been in any sense in the affected allies with a pensioner a lovely american government and to for us to allow this collection of an important military figures to exercise an effective veto over the policy of the united states now since may have most serviced it and i do not think but then arthur i'd like to ask you question we if there is to be a negotiation we've got to get the present government of south vietnam involving that negotiation one might agree with your description or disagree with your description but i think we get around the fact that they are the government to whatever effect and they got to get involved to you get away from that property you cannot annoy the tomatoes issue you have therefore take advantage of alleged splits are differences of opinion as betraying them into normal key in that government

i don't and what extent that we're capable of doing that and therefore would seem to me that they more of this can be put on a regional basis the less they just naturally self protective instincts of those who control the government side and will be allowed to deflect the coarsening of negotiation no insects what would you say about that well i'm a little unhappy about the year assumption that was made a little while ago bryan's forceful when he advanced ii allows proposal and even more unhappy when no dressing area really effectively supporters in terms of his characterizations of kidneys government to begin with that if anything at this point we're talking about the practical realities the la settlement would be the last thing in the world i would hold forth the american people as a means of solving the situation after all of the communist they get the poaching minh trail really without having

this the unofficial kind of wanting it goes on indirect contravention of the laotian peace treaty you don't have the government that was you have the laotian premiums and little is calling for the destruction of the other side and you mix an escalation of the war in laos in these last weeks because of the your feelings of that due to his government and so there the settlement didn't work about what i'm referring to a lecture that selma is the assumption that if you're going to work on a regional basis and you sit down and you articulate as your proposal some kind of a further division of vietnam along the lines of the same thing or some kind of territorial settlement of the internal situation in south vietnam north to satisfy other requirements they're effectively going to a piece in this and in that way you're going to end up getting the communists a major objective analysts like another piece off of south vietnam as they did in the course of negotiations in nineteen fifty four at one wave back reality know my hope was and they're here

i want a perfectly it but without giving me is that he when he may only got a little bit more than a third of the vote there are two thirds of the people of vietnam war presented by various assemblyman and senators in a new legislative institution and they will have something to say for wanting united states that does not take the view that the that they don't count the moment you he's the problems out what you might think uva rays two important points professed sex not like two of the panelists its common on the mud like first mike for a stolen briefly respond on the laos is you mike well i think maybe the cat's out of the bag at this point i think probably that's a sex night to fundamentally in disagree on on not on our respective views of what is a what is southeast asia i look upon the last settlement not as a model for anything that will come that may come in south vietnam but as a way as an occasion upon which the united states did in fact recognize that its interest in

southeast asia was not to support particular people not to support particular individual nor even ticket itself a make believe that anglo saxon parliamentary institutions invested in any one of these kind of what we didn't allow situation was simply to say it is to the interests of the united states not to permit the complete swallowing up the only piece of art important territory with people in it without making some effort to prevent in making a very strong opinion in laos i will submit that it depends professor sachs look at a topographic or demographic map the fact is that most of the people of laos today do not exist under the sway or under direction in control of illinois now i don't say that this is not necessarily decisive away which negotiated in vietnam of that time tom shelling out as you to comment on the other issue that the militants x

rays who are the parties in the negotiation of this sort is it done by the state department in washington isn't done by ambassadors done by government know i had you see a negotiation of the search for saving in terms of who are the actors and over what time scale of operation this isn't a question of the public policy decision that road we wanna play what how far can we push saigon and the kind of negotiation we like them to participate in what we wanted on recognizing the national liberation front as abramoff even a number of the negotiation i think they did about the emotion that we assume the bombing to stop them to come to the table first let's look at the war goes on there are differences of the bombing of the north have thought which may put some pressure on the negotiators because of the inclination of the us to resume bombing if we don't make progress in the war goes on

like second we have to recognize that there may be no settlement with talk about goals but i think it's far from clear that the government in saigon and the national liberation front can agree on anything because the situation is so polarized that we have to recognize that may be no settlement comes out of that maybe the war drags on you know with or without reason bombing of an art and then the question is can the government in saigon find its way through offering the national liberation front some kind of political role that would satisfy in a manner that leaves the mls to believe it does some of its demands of this is not shooting their way into a government that really means that they end up in the position that would've been in that there had been no war namely as an organized political party they can participate in the south of india's politics who polices that says somebody with others was he suggested maybe a multilateral forces un forces

somebody could come and take care of things it seems to me that the united states would have a million troops can't enforce peace on the country and no international forces one camp that live there and they report anything they can look like and what they can report that the claim that i'm a cut you look because they alternate an important the new point not like it sam refused to comment on the question of fighting and shooting and talking at the same time how would it look the us to negotiate in flight can we both tone down the fighting enough to be consistent with going on negotiating position and still maintain the kind of military pressure presence in power that is they're negotiating asset that we went in there to put into cds and gen richards well first may i ask you just who is sitting

at the negotiating table that have been made clear yet well everybody was nominated some candidates that we got them all standing there that there they are now up there well i would assume so i would assume from this discussion the piano at the south vietnamese government the north vietnamese government possibly representatives of the united states but not necessarily and possibly that in the wings a geneva conference with the soviets the chinese i don't know the french are interested in a longer whether we have them but one can imagine several levels of this process and you can i pick whatever scenario you want to make your point the point of how the situation in the field in the situation negotiation will lie to each other one of the first place i don't think that the state of the larger situation of the grave situation there are relevant col to elaborately face with the south viet

nam and i think the basic thing here is packages that out and almost a quarter of a million that you've been asked about a quarter of a million people throughout four hundred and eighty three thousand our infrastructure their military and political under control over the an ally or hanoi others was enjoying her it wasn't for lots and i think the main stumbling block any negotiation in the debate what we all have to cope with these people what are they gonna do what concessions that we act like to get them in my concessions this is a major problem i would i would certainly yeah i don't believe for a minute that there are we going to get anywhere unless we do this i think i we up your prices i aggressively for obscene visited my district area by area and try try and impose a truly ceasefires gradually progress of late at the same time i'll

certainly paranoia that we're aware of are laden are the privately owned reserves but it i don't see any year and i don't see any connection between know the grain solomon what can possibly be done but that sometimes argue that if we start talking and start shooting we give them military initiative to the other side and this is so vital a change in the balance of forces that that we can't do it as a straight military proposition what would you say to that we can we maintain ourselves in the position well i think i think that a lower level of identification that that the shooting in the fighting has not stopped aggressively week we have reasoned that we not that they're aware the negotiating table because we stop bombing the north and we stopped him any overt acts of

war against north vietnam that that is the basic rights what radisson the table right that very well then the next step is to gradually progress of lake where we can and how we can agree with the other parties that that the hostilities will be delighted at the owners' laughter with dr malley united states with dr drew for positions and from natalie this cannot be done by day after tomorrow this i say is a very long and wearing process which again a common jon look like a sunday school picnic bob's galloping know would your comment what would your comment beyond the extent to which such a process is consistent with the goals you've outlined do you think we can go through such a process and still come out with a political process and south korea vietnam that would be there and mine i agree very

much and i doubt that there is any member of this panel who does not see the period ahead as of art handlers on your respect the big development i want to say that i think it is conceivable that negotiations are taking place under conditions where there is mutual military de escalation could be conducive to our goals than that speaking go back to a point that arthur schlesinger and eight i think we have some elements of agreements of this agreement on this question of discipline i think he may have misunderstood what i was saying or trying to say what i was saying was that under any situation where you have one party under an iron and then the other party representing a hung jury of four soaps whether they be efficient or inefficient corrupt or non corrupt you've got certain problems in maintaining respect davis the

fund i wanna make the further point to fund a while we're talking about this general problem but if you look at the opening terms of the hanoi and our forces what i find interesting at the moment is that i think hanoi is attempting to hoist the mls as a separate entity i think it is attempting to launch the n l f in public as a separate political force i don't think that necessarily means that there is any this continuity at the top levels mind you between hanoi and the n l f and i think if you read the proposals of both of these forces at the top they asking for a bona fide that guarantees that there shall not be another slippage from a unified communist control vietnam at the procedures must lead to that now i think it's rather important to make the point that a close reading of both anoint and an hour as issues were some difference in wording

does not that virgin's slide has thus far from that very strong bill and i would disagree slightly with arthur schlesinger when he says is a kind of equity and balance between art in flexibility and there's various prompts if you come down to one basic goal namely our position that there ought to be an option for the south vietnamese people that she was something other than communism and they hanoi and the position that whatever the timing and the procedures this must lead to a unified communist vietnam there is a fundamentally incompatible that and that's the issue are chartered in one of our man on the coast yes i think that this is very clearly stated what's the ethical is a situation which lead anyone who reflects obama to fill a pessimistic because clearly they are the objective of an elephant of an eye is a common south vietnam clearly that is the one thing we would never

negotiate that doesn't seem to me just a bad problems that this the vergara those that exhaust the situation now because is the question which negotiated have to ask is is about is about arrests there in the state of pessimism and continue a war which has already killed fourteen thousand americans which does not so much prospects of coming to an end in the military bases or is it better to make the effort within these abstinence and to go terms of seeing another agreement on what was showing his call representative process we not appeal to both sides as something which will enable him to achieve their ultimate objective is and i think that what we missed attempt to do that as i say is to create a political structure where the communists in vietnam will be rewarded by the prospect of an eventual withdrawal of american forces and buy a and a chance to seek and acquire politically but they left thus far so long

as the american forces are there have failed to acquire militarily and they may feel a given the sizable of american presence inside this is a reasonable gamble for them similar to those on the other side i may feel that data if mr sachs i believe is a stop in our eye and suggesting that they come in a certain minority in south vietnam that agreement on a representative process will produce the kind of government we want we cannot another word guarantee the results hadn't disclosed any member of this panel would wish united states to stand in definitely in perpetuity as a guarantee against yourself in online commerce or whatever else we discharge are as possible it seems to me by trying to find agreement on a process and we take our chances with the results and it seems to me the skilled negotiator determined to bring about a result might in spite of eight points visitors garden of parsley may persuade they have that nothin me send an ally that those camel but to be to their advantage and after sex has already shown us why would be to our data

showed that i would not say so the case here in return of award i make a real fat well it seems to me that what can be put here is the essence of these issues the negotiations like a horse race if you know the outcome in advance there isn't much fun and if you know the outcome that you don't have the negotiations if i understand are three correctly you've been emphasizing the point that we have to take some gambles it seems to me that one can put the central issue somewhat in the following terms quote we intervene in south vietnam because we thought the balance of forces was such that a political process would have only one result and that was the result we view as bad for as a communist government in

south vietnam followed by some kind of single unified government over the whole area under the control of the north vietnamese communist party saved yet needs are our intervention has changed the situation a great deal i think the question before us is have we got and new balance of forces sufficiently far along so that it's a good time first in the dusty and it's the answer that is now will there be a better time in the near future or are we committing ourselves to an indefinite intervention it seems to me that's the heart of the issue and perhaps we can go around and try to summarize their views by answering that question time i think century looking right at me i'll call a new was the first one to summarize if you will know the negotiation will get us anywhere

carl typically an hour and hanoi are not willing to take risks and make some compromises or for process that guarantees them less than they want to have the negotiation will get nowhere and important thing on our part i think is is not to expect so much that will lead them to believe that once we start negotiating will really quirk awesome awesome persuade ourselves that that having is over what we start negotiating that my hunch is that just as we're six analysts don't really know what's feasible for me that is an ally neither does the mls i got a little bit with a skeleton was right the other side has all that iron discipline after all when winston griffith referred to the russians and the chinese family they're not part of the same disciplinary process and diplomacy they have differences i'm going to be saying when negotiations start as were assuming they might just how well the other side holds together how much it will pretend to be getting what it needs or

whether really looking forward to a settlement or the collapse in the end what both sides settled for the ism non settlement some kind of a very that tenuous truce or a cease fire which put everybody under the motivation keep trying that with the long long period that low light make them and john look like a picnic will nevertheless said at least is that if and when john was and perhaps were nearly long general greatness would you summarize and even more briefly yes i was briefly i think they're seeing is apparent to me that nobody knew any negotiation is going to get what it wants and therefore that we hear in this country must the air conditioner assad to accept what is tolerable to us and that to our ally in saigon that just begun concluding our say i agree with john john and this might be a cease fire it might be a truce

if it might be just a tacit understanding and nobody shoot because it seems to me that is one of eight of the very very long and difficult process as bob dylan said in talking about us and vietnamese or maybe americans returned all right well maybe maybe that's going to be the end of the outcome of this thing anyone anyone like farts though i think we're also becoming a new kind of agreement here at least so far certainly go along with what gen nicholson said and some shelling and that is that this process once started out not to be that they should not be developing our own country are kind of a hope that is living that easy solution quite on the contrary i'm not even sure one could properly call what might happen negotiations in the ordinary sense as i see it you probably have or might have a series even of unilateral actions taken by the

south the north the mls even ourselves it might even have talks at many levels somebody i think it was because you know mentioned earlier i think the league has very strongly the possibility of talks for small negotiations in the regions of south vietnam there are places which are more government than are there places that are less government control in short this is going to be a painful process an extremely long winded will look i'm quite unlike anything we've done before i will accept that we had never quite have this exactly the situation of the paralytic important thing for this country is not to enter into anything like this was false hopes or a great feeling that somehow there will be a quick end to the whole thing no sacks well i'd like to first does suggest that i do not agree that there will be peace negotiations while peace negotiations are essentially plan for ratification or variants they're out in the hope that somehow we can work something out there that we could get in the closing table communists are not going to break up the

mls to negotiate and finally a major effort is to get the intellect recognize and i think in a nice and realistic appraisal goes yes you have to recognize the handler but i would put the primary emphasis on the creation of a cease fire as the first it's there because it doesn't seem to me that either side is in a position to change the balance of forces militarily significantly as a result of cease fire with the people of vietnam read twenty long years of war it will make a great deal of difference and the political arrangement suggestions that have to be made will come a lot more easier when the guns and silence then they will if we have fun when jump all over again with the major fighting going on on the terrible and arthur schlesinger we try the course of military escalation vietnam after nearly three years and it cannot be said we are notably better off than we were when we began in some respects we're worse off than the number of thousand americans in many more thousands of vietnamese have been killed it seems to me that to continue to pursue the chorus the military escalation in that expectation is going to be better early next three years and was the first

three years is an illusion there for eight confident and creative diplomacy would have to go to the gym to the negotiating table the difficulties are great we heard a number of them set forth now that this is what diplomacy is for there were no difficulties anyone could negotiate an unseemly that a government confidence in itself and i kind of creative imagination is required for negotiation would seize this with all the difficulties as at least an alternative to going on in the week and terrible way in which we're having i think bob's gallup you know do you want to the last summer either and i think that maybe the penultimate that i think the negotiations if they are to be to have any hope of success must rest upon three propositions first but the setting the one in which military advantage cannot be

taken in the process of those emissions by one side or the other the second leg that there'd be some evidence and a willingness to some members of the panel has said on the part of both the communists in ourselves to take certain risks in the course of the evolution of a process and finally that we have an international atmosphere that is conducive to trying to get such negotiations toward a premium upon the position of thinking and most particularly of moscow it seems to me is very important but within this context i would like the following point our own that those same position in my opinion will be much strengthened as we can help persuade the government inside gone to conduct its own infrastructure negotiations perhaps oats for more informal negotiations to broaden the base of both its support in this fall in gaza in the final analysis of this process we've been talking about is put into effect it's got to involve many non

communist groups working together who have not previously worked together for the real danger in south vietnam in my opinion is not that the people want to live under communism it is the problem a regional ethnic religious disparities at the problem of nations thank you professor scallop you know we've heard a lively show our discussion and i think they're six and with a big two point we can and does today it's hard it's risky we don't know the outcome the question is are the risks of negotiation greater than the risks of continued fighting and i think that's the right political decision that we have to make today thank you this has been another in the continuing series of experimental interconnected broadcast produced and edited for public television's wider public broadcast laboratory of anything

issues christianity's krishna krishna tradition alive special assistance was received from the public television stations in san francisco minneapolis st paul washington dc off the veil tonight salutes station get a meal serving a fargo and more at north dakota area on its fourth anniversary this wednesday evening at age thirty and he's same time or the same public television stations at the borders and alive indefinitely broadcast the president's state of the union address has really followed immediately by an extended analysis of the speech white expert on urban affairs civil rights the economy vietnam and florida

republican party press conference will also be reserved that is sunday evenings generally or think that this is the us plummets