Sukarno: Prophet or Demogogue

The following program is from NET, the National Educational Television Network. The Indonesian Revolution is bigger, wider, deeper and truer than any other revolution. It is a primitive revolution which expresses the aspiration of all humanity. It is creating a new world, a world filled with physical happiness and intellectual happiness

and religious happiness. And this revolution is not just for the Indonesian people, it is for all of mankind, all over the world. He has also said, if I tell my people to eat stones, they will eat stones. Long karno they call him, or brother karno. The word brother may be accurate, but it is not complete. He is also father, dictator, insider, lover and president of Indonesia for life. He is the unquestioned head of the world's fifth largest state. The capital of Indonesia is Jakarta, and its streets reflect karno's political beliefs. The mural is gigantic, on it one can see the faces of the revolution, including its

leader. Gangyang Malaysia, crush Malaysia, nasakong, meaning nationalism, religion, communism. The karno says the Indonesian revolution is all free. The karno says, if I tell my people to eat stones, they will eat stones. The karno says, if I tell my people to eat stones, they will eat stones. All to arms against Nakalim, one can almost see the word in English, Nakalim, neo-colonialism.

And the principle aims of the Indonesian revolution are threefold, firstly to establish in Indonesia a strong unitarian state in the form of a republic. It is the first in republic free, completely free from any domination. The second in is domestically, to establish in Indonesia a just and prosperous society based on the principles of Indonesian socialism.

Thirdly, to contribute to the formation of a new world, a new world without exploitation of man by man, a new world without exploitation of nation by nation, a new world in which all nations work brotherly together without antagonism between each other. But on television every evening, there are propaganda programs. And when this was filmed earlier this year, love between nations was hardly preached at all. Rather, it was hate, hate for the neighboring Federation of Malaysia, hate for the western figures who are supposed to be behind it. Malaysia is represented by Tunko Abdul Rahman, a prince and the popularly elected head of government. Sukarno's propaganda makes him look like an idiot, a lowly buffoon created by foreign

neo-colonialists. Tunko dances to the tune of his western financiers, he is mocked by the people of the world. Tunko's plight is a set one, he has always mounted on the back of British capitalism. Only British money saves him from his downfall. These Indonesian amazons are part of Sukarno's woman's army. His army is 350,000 strong.

It is not just a defensive army, it has been used aggressively twice, first in the fight for control of Dutch New Guinea or West Irian, and now against Malaysia. The young ladies have volunteered as paratroopers. The Japanese influence is strong in Sukarno's army. Sukarno himself was once a strong admirer of the Japanese, the first sergeant looks tough enough for any army, male or female. Although unlike many other Asian leaders, has convinced the youth of his country that his revolution is a just one, and that military service on behalf of revolution is a just cause. Sojourns of a elite Siliwongi regiment are trained in the primeval forest of central Java.

Learning the basic techniques of jungle warfare is a must for any good Southeast Asian army, particularly one which would at times fall meant revolution. Sukarno has a favorite slogan, one he adopted from uselini, who in turn lifted it from Nietzsche. Viva de pedicolozo lived dangerously. These jungle fighters made a number of raids on Malaysia, but they proved ineffectual. Sukarno had predicted that Malaysia would be shattered by the first cox crow of 1965. The federation split only eight months later than Sukarno predicted, but not because of

Sukarno's jungle fighters. The split came because of fierce racial rivalry between Singapore Chinese and peninsula Malayans. From the federation became a member of the United Nations, Sukarno dramatically withdrew Indonesia from the UN, calling it a front for neo-colonialists. Subandrio, Indonesia's foreign minister, tried at the beginning of the year to boast to Sukarno's international prestige. He went to pick king. When he returned, he declared that China was a close ally of Indonesia in the struggle against Western imperialism. But Sukarno's pet idea of an afro-Asian UN seemed to die. In the beginning of the year, Sukarno said that China's military advisers will come to Indonesia as soon as possible.

The close cooperation between China and Indonesia began in 1955, at the first afro-Asian conference in Bandung, Indonesia was the host country. Sukarno welcomed the heads of 27 other Asian and African governments, and Prime Minister Jo and Lai of China had the opportunity to mix in the circle of neutral nations. Sukarno at the time was really an opponent of China. His dreams of a pan-malayan empire put him closer to men like Egypt's Nasser and Prime Minister Nehru of India. But Indonesia moved more and more away from the center of neutralism towards the extreme left. Sukarno's left wing foreign policy has brought him closer and closer to communist China.

Whether China is using him or each other remains an open question, but one which may well decide the fate of Southeast Asia. Sukarno has had this one great success, the uniting of Indonesia. Many people's even more tribes, a thousand sects, they all became one nation. Basic to Indonesian unity is the elimination of illiteracy and the adoption of a national

language, Bahasa Indonesia. The political gospel according to Sukarno is taught in all Indonesian schools. In indoctrination classes are everywhere. The school children learn the basic elements of the revolution's Bible, the Panchachila, just like a catechism. Faith in God, nationalism, humanism, democracy, and social justice. These are the five guiding principles, in theory at any rate, of Indonesia's guided democracy. The And the Asian way is Ushawara.

The censored Indonesian newspapers exist mainly to indoctrinate, and spirited Indonesian editors are in jail. In the countryside, wandering religious zealots spread the message of Sukarno, the great leader. The old can sometimes be skeptical, the young are almost always enthusiastic. About 40 years ago, the youthful Sukarno started his struggle for Indonesian independence with a battle cry, from the very beginning he was the symbol of leadership. He was the man who could stir up the masses, those he could not control, he put down.

Many of Sukarno's colleagues in those days, genuine social democrats, have been put in prison camps by Sukarno, the so-called great leader of the revolution, who will not permit an opposition to develop. The Dutch colonial rulers were driven out by the Japanese during World War II. It was Sukarno who helped organize and lead the armed resistance to the return of the Dutch. The fact that Sukarno almost betrayed his colleagues, by surrendering to the Dutch at one point when his colleagues were eager to fight, proved that Sukarno could sway with a prevailing wind. The Indonesians have conveniently forgotten this particular example of Sukarno's leadership. During the years after independence, Sukarno had to defend the unity of the young nation.

There were constant rebellions by separatists in the Adams, by Muslim extremists, by communists. One Muslim group had tried to erect the so-called Islamic Heaven on Earth. As late as 1957 and 1958, separatist groups on the Adams were abelling against the Indonesian state. Only when these last rebellions were put down, was the unity of Indonesia considered certain. Sukarno traveled through the 3,000 islands of his empire. Indonesia stretches more than 3,000 miles along the equator, the width of the continental United States.

The integration of this immense territory, this empire of islands, from Sumatra to the Celabies, from Borneo to West Irian, was more than a military problem. There were many tribes, many races, many languages. Above all, it was a political task. Many believed that only Sukarno and no other Indonesian could have accomplished it. Sukarno brought the message of a greater Indonesia, a land that would include all the races, a land which would still guard its independence against the foreign devil. Sukarno's elegance, his fierce oratory, his seeming sympathy for the problems of his people, won the masses. They loved him, even if they sometimes couldn't understand the theoretical doctrines of dynamic revolution. Their statements against colonialism and foreign domination over her were always understood. Sukarno used anti-colonial slogans then and now.

Through the people's outrage, he could strengthen the sense of national purpose and national unity, which in so diverse an empire was sometimes lacking. In 1963, Sukarno secured West Irian for Indonesia from the Dutch, as he said he would. The move enhanced his personal authority and united the country. Sukarno's move against Malaysia has had the same sort of unifying effect. The great leader, who many call a demagogue, understands, as do all great leaders, how to play upon the emotions of his countrymen. He has become the living symbol of the Indonesian revolution, the priest king of Indonesia nationalism. Stone statues enshrine the glory of his revolution, reminding Indonesians of the greatness and

significance of Indonesia. Sukarno's 40-year struggle has seen him emerge as the seldom disputed master of the fifth largest state in the world. It is brought inside Sukarno a messianic sense. He referred to this divine mission a little while ago and a memorial celebration of the revelation of the Quran. You can, said Sukarno, compare my decision to quit the United Nations with the decision of our great prophet Muhammad to go from Mecca to Medina. That was no flight, but the weight of God, the real hour of Islam's birth. My decision inspired by the prophet will also have historic consequences. First, I want to say the verse in the responses told me that he will be executed because The political leader rules by the will of Allah and with the help of the Supreme Council

of the Republic, whose members are all handpicked by Sukarno. The Council is indeed representative of the legal political parties, the armed forces, the cabinet, and all the major racial groups. Under the chairmanship of the great leader of the revolution, Sukarno, the Council fulfills the role of an elected parliament in a democracy. But in Indonesia, if it is democracy, it is one with no formalized dissent or opposition. Sukarno can always be sure that his political decisions will in the long run have overwhelming support. His adversaries are not represented

on the council. Their organizations have been forbidden and disbanded. But this does not mean there is always unanimity. The armed forces in Indonesia and the powerful Indonesian Communist Party led by Comrade Aida, are sometimes at opposite ends of an argument. Yet they sit next to each other, and there are no guns. There is only talk. These two forces, the communists and the army, may very well struggle for power once Sukarno is gone. PKI, the Communist Party of Indonesia, it is by far the strongest political party in the country. It is the largest Communist Party anywhere outside the communist block countries. It has its roots in the poverty of Indonesia. In the cities of overpopulated Java, some say that PKI is pro-Peking, and it is, but not to the exclusion of Indonesia. It is most profoundly pro-Indonesia. And this is the real Indonesia. The Indonesia that Sukarno

was touched only with his slogans. Sukarno calls Western imperialism the arch enemy, and it is the Communist Party which molds the masses' emotions and uses them for itself. Nanyang America, crush America, the cry of the communist trade unions, communist students, crush America, a favorite cry. Although Indonesia has received more than a billion dollars of American military and economic aid. The students are demonstrating against America's Vietnam policy. Like the Chinese, they think we are a paper tiger. That though we have the technical superiority, we lack the will and the desire to stay in Asia. Indonesia troops were posted to protect the American embassy on personal orders from

Sukarno, who knows just how far to allow demonstrations to go. Several weeks earlier, Communist students had burned down several U.S. information service libraries. Sukarno is in league with the communists, but he is no communist himself. He uses them. They use him. But who one wonders would be able to exercise the communist ghost called up Isaacarno once the great leader of the revolution is gone. The only alternative to the communists and it is not a certain alternative is the Indonesian army. The Minister of Defence and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff is General Abdul Haris Nasutyan. So far the military has not showed its political hand. The Indonesian military has received abundant

military aid from both the United States and Russia. The armed forces have already been used to put down a communist rebellion in East Java in 1948. Ten years later, they suppressed an anti-Sukarno anti-communist rebellion. We asked Sukarno about the economic goals and successes of the Indonesian revolution. The interviewer is Dr. Hans Paltibird of Studio Hamburg, West Germany. How outstanding achievements of the dynamic humiliation. Of course, on other fields we have achieved something even if not say 100 percent, but we have achieved something for example in the economic field. I had to talk

with these gentlemen. Before the liberation, according to Dutch statistics, the Indonesian people left of two and a half cents per capita. Two and a half. Now, you may go everywhere. Do you see people starving here? No. What is per capita income now? You cannot figure it in money. No, because we are not having a little value to difficulties. Yes, yes. But I told them the so-called inflation. Yes, it is a disease, but not a very, very, very difficult disease. An inflation as only bad if it brings poverty to the people. In Jakarta's VIP hotel, the hotel in

Indonesia, you only pay in dollars. A single night costs about half a year salary for a middle-rank Indonesian civil servant. Inflation is rapid. There are some who say that Indonesia has two major industries. One is the creation of slogans. The second is the manufacture of paper money. There are many reasons for what Sukarno euphemistically calls a little inflation. The main one is the economic uncertainty caused by communist and state action against

foreign investments, like Shell and other great oil companies. But Sukarno was right when he says that no one starves. In the city's food is subsidized. And until 1964, Indonesia received large amounts of surplus grain as a gift from the United States. And in the country where 80% of the people live, a primitive economy of self-production independent of money is still prevalent. Indonesia is extraordinarily rich in oil, tin and rubber. But this natural wealth is not used for the people. It is wasted away in political military adventures,

like the actions against Iran and Malaysia. The majority of Indonesians are Muslims. The Muslims call all Muslims to prayer at the end of Ramadan, the month of fasting. In Indonesia, as everywhere in the Islamic world, the mosques were at the beginning highly conservative. Sukarno had to overcome the conservatism, to impose his conception of a forward-looking, somewhat secular state. He himself is a believer. But every time he speaks on a feast day in the great mosque in Jakarta, he preaches a political message. Sukarno was called Bunkarno, brother by his people. He is treated not like a brother, but

a sultan, and he runs his court like a reigning potentate. In the last day of Ramadan, he receives a variety of guests in the Freedom Palace in Jakarta. Among them are prominent political figures, representatives of the armed forces, and ordinary citizens who wish to show their reverence for the president.

For these people, Bunkarno is less of brother than a father figure, a father president. His power to charm individuals is equal to if not greater than his ability to harang the masses. He is naturally unpretentious, and he is convincing in personal contact. In the towns and villages of Indonesia, where magic is still a bleed, Sukarno is compared to the old Javanese priest kings. He has been compared with Hitler. The comparison is unjust. Sukarno has never executed a political prisoner, although he has put many in jail, his relations with his people demonstrate a warm and benevolence. Every morning, punctually at 7 a.m., Sukarno receives his closest associates and good

friends for breakfast on the veranda. He is usually dressed informally, more so than the good friends. In this ruling circle of Indonesia, discussion is friendly and uninhibited. However, it is not the least杯 of the occasion. To the amusement of palace guests, Sikarno's American biographer is the only one who goes down underneath to the president. After an hour of personal conversation, Sikarno starts

sun government business. His cabinet includes 104 ministers, but Sikarno worries over the smallest tales of administration, at least in those areas which interest him. One of those areas is military building. He makes a judgment on each plan. Almost every weekend, Sikarno gets into one of the presidential helicopters to make the trip to Bogor, his weekend chateau. Bogor, which used to belong to the Dutch, is

about 40 miles from Jakarta. It is far removed from mass poverty in which almost all Indonesians live. And in contrast to the fiery emotionalism which characterizes the Indonesian revolution, Bogor is almost idyllic, with its lotus pools and its deer lawns. Sikarno, the socialist revolutionary, has accustomed himself to living in palaces. He likes large weekend parties, partly to impress foreign guests, partly to impress his own Indonesian people, and also for his purely personal pleasure. Today, in addition to members of his cabinet, the American ambassador, the Russian ambassador and other guests, he's invited 50 of Indonesia's most beautiful girls. One of the joer Sikarno enjoys most is judging a beauty contest. The great leader of the revolution personally takes command. After a personal

inspection and an intelligence test, he chooses the lucky winners. All the guests at Sikarno's weekend parties have to pitch in and join the fun. His highness, the Sultan of Jakarta, is regarded as a possible successor to Sikarno. Sikarno is the master of ceremonies. He orders his military-adjutant, Colonel Bung Bung,

to the microphone. They sing and they improvise about Indonesia, about the great leader of the revolution, Brother Colonel, and the songs go on for hours and hours. At a nod from the president, the star entertainers of the evening begin their duet. Madam Subundrio is the wife of the Indonesian foreign minister, with her is his excellency the Russian ambassador,

and together a rendition of Moscow nights. The communist leader Ida, who will be after Sikarno's throne once the great leader is gone, dances to the Russian song. He is tried to keep the Indonesian Communist Party out of a fierce Sino-Soviet dispute. So then American ambassador, Howard P. Jones, is another honored participant.

In the streets of Jakarta, the differences between factions and forces, foreign or Indonesian, sometimes erupt into violence. But at Bogor, Sikarno and his guests who represent these forces live it up. Any politician or diplomat who doesn't join the fun, has a little chance of gaining Sikarno's personal favor. Sikarno is no idle watcher. He likes to take his turn too. He is singing about the romantic beauty of moonlight. There are some criticism in Indonesian circles of Sikarno's high living, but the criticism

significantly does not come from the massive Indonesians, 100 million strong. After Muslims like Sikarno, Sikarno has four wives, and as in the days of old, it is a great honor to be part of Sikarno. Sikarno remains an enthusiastic revolutionary, a demagogue, perhaps, a prophet, who knows,

a dictator, sure. But there is little question that he fulfills the emotional needs of his 100 million people, that he has molded a nation and the political direction of that nation for a lifetime. He has not yet been able to turn revolutionary doctrine into solid social achievement, but he has nevertheless found the key to his people's heart. He has created and retained the image of the foreign devil, Western imperialism, the enemy, even when the poverty of his own people stays the same or gets worse. Economics, social achievement, that is boring. Disorder is the essential element of his dynamic revolution, and so Sikarno pursues disorder on the world stage. His is a fiery flame that illuminates for a moment perhaps, and then burns and destroys itself. He has said of himself that he can lead and mislead.

The question, though, is not so much Sikarno. He is dangerous enough. It is what may come after Sikarno. This is Howard Palfrey Jones, Chancellor of the East-West Center in Hawaii. For seven years, from 1958 until May of this year, Mr. Jones was our ambassador to Indonesia. Few foreigners know Sikarno as well as he. I'm Roger Coriel from Station KHVH in Honolulu. Before I start this interview with Mr. Jones, I'd like to read the opening paragraph of an article which appeared in the New York Times Sunday magazine a few weeks ago. It's called The US

and Indonesia a tragedy in diplomacy. The article begins at the end of May 1965, Howard P. Jones left his post as American ambassador to Indonesia to become Chancellor of the East-West Center in Hawaii. Ambassador Jones had served in Jakarta for seven years, a period longer than most ambassadors in any one capital. He had become a great personal friend of President Sikarno. He had learned much about Indonesia, and he had enjoyed the full confidence of President Eisenhower, Kennedy, and Johnson. One would expect, the article continues, that such an embassy would have been concluded on a note of triumph. The fact is the opposite. When Mr. Jones left Jakarta, the Indonesian government, which usually reflects the views of the foreign ministry, had kind words for him as an individual, but called the United States bluntly our political adversary.

Well, Mr. Jones, what happened? What caused this deterioration in our relations? Any misunderstandings whether between nations and friends usually have a long history. And I suppose that this history actually goes back to the revolutionary period in Indonesia shortly thereafter. For example, in 1952, we speak about the problems of aid versus Indonesia today. Actually in 1952, an Indonesian cabinet fell on the issue of American aid in Indonesia. And gradually through the years, misunderstandings developed. They felt that we were attempting to interfere in their internal affairs on the one hand. We felt the Indonesians were taking unreasonable positions in many ways in the international arena, as I'm sure you are aware, so that this was not a sudden thing.

It was a gradual growth of misunderstanding. I suppose that the sudden worsening in our relations, say a year and a half ago, could be related to the Malaysia dispute, which has been the key issue between us. We have been endeavoring to make the point in Indonesia that friends may disagree and still remain friends. Families may disagree, and the members of the family will still love each other. We've been endeavoring to make the point that when we disagree on external issues, such as the Congo, Vietnam, this kind of thing, this shouldn't affect our friendship for each other. This shouldn't affect our bilateral relations. This is something external to that. This is a problem of two other countries, and, for example, we, as you know, have taken no sides in the India-Pakistan dispute over Kashmir.

There's no reason, for example, why a few thousand Indonesians should have demonstrated against the American Embassy the other day on this issue. Yet, again, this is a result of a misunderstanding of our position. Now, I should emphasize that these misunderstandings are not always the fall of either side. We have a very active, communist party, vigorous, active, resourceful, unscrupulous, communist party in Indonesia, and this communist party is constantly misinterpreting American positions, giving a picture of America, an image of America in Indonesia, which is not true, and stimulating demonstrations against us. Would you say that President Sukano is within the power of the communist party, or does he lead them or what? The communist party in Indonesia has never been a communist party,

as we think of a communist party. It has been all things to Sukano. It has been completely responsive to his will and his desires. Secondly, the communist party in Indonesia has never preached communism as such in Indonesia. For example, and this perhaps is the most outstanding example, but I could give many, the basic state philosophy in Indonesia is that Panchasila, so-called, Pancha meaning five and Sila meaning principles, this is Sanskrit. Now, the first of those principles is belief in God. And a few years ago in reducing the number of political parties in Indonesia, President Sukano put out a decree saying that any political party they actually had about 45 and he wanted to reduce this to a more manageable number. You can't have 45 political parties and operate a successful democracy.

So he said every political party in Indonesia must subscribe to the Panchasila, the first principle of which is belief in God. So everybody thought that this would put the communist in a position which would be completely untenable, and there was hope that the communist party would be outlawed. Did this happen? No, it did not happen. And the communist raised up their hand and said, yes, we subscribed to the Panchasila in effect saying, yes, we believe in God. So that they present a completely different picture within the country to the Indonesian masses and the Indonesian people generally, then they present to us the Moscow or peaking-crained leadership of the Communist Party knows exactly what it's doing. It's major target internationally at the moment is destruction of relations between the United States and Indonesia. Well, is President Sukarno a communist or not? No, no. President Sukarno is a revolutionary nationalist and has been all his life.

He's no communist. When he works with a communist, when he plays ball with a communist, he's doing so because he considers it in his or in the national interest. He is a Marxist, of course. He is what we would call a socialist, and he describes his philosophy as socialism all in Indonesia, but he's not a communist. What was your reaction when Sukarno said the hell with your aid? Well, Roger, that was not reported in complete accuracy. There was a difference, but a very important difference in the way this thing developed. Picture a small meeting, dedicating a bank, about 300 people. My wife and I were sitting in the front row. Sukarno began to talk about things that people were saying about Indonesia. He quoted a national magazine which said that Indonesia was headed for economic collapse,

and he took up that issue and he derided it. And then he referred to attempts on the part of some nations to influence the political policy and the internal affairs of Indonesia. And then he said, in sudden burst, he said, we receive aid from many countries, but if any country attaches political strings to its aid, then I say to hell with your aid. Now, he didn't look at me and he didn't name America. If he had, I would have had to walk out. One doesn't take that kind of attack on one's country. But this was not the case. As a matter of fact, I didn't identify any newspaper reporters at the meeting. What I think happened is that afterwards people reported what had happened, and probably somebody said to a,

why the President with Mr. Ambassador Jones sitting in the front row, the President said to hell with your aid, you see, and this was probably how it developed. So it was in quite a different context than it was reported. Of course, the reaction in America was instantaneous. The reaction in Congress and the administration, and one can understand how it would be. What does President Sukarno think of our position in Vietnam? Well, he doesn't think much of it. But Sukarno, you might say to put it in terms of our own history, Sukarno has his own Monroe Doctrine for Southeast Asia, which he considers Indonesia as the fifth largest country in the world, and the country which is larger than any one of these small countries in Southeast Asia, has an interest and should have a certain hegemony over the area. And he considers that we've got no business in Asia. Why are we interfering in the internal affairs of a nation country?

This is the way he sees Vietnam. No, we don't agree with that, of course. But this is the basis of his difference of view with us on Vietnam. I wonder if you could tell us what you think will happen in terms of the takeover of power in Indonesia, when President Sukarno dies. So is this going to be a communist takeover? Do you think it'll be a nationalist follower of President Sukarno? Who's going to get the power in Indonesia? Well, Roger, this, of course, is a matter of time and circumstance in a situation which is as fluid as that Indonesian situation is. But I think you can say this, and I suppose the involved in this question is the deeper question will Indonesia go communist? I think you can say this, that if President Sukarno were to step off the stage in the foreseeable future, that the army would be the dominant power,

the dominant muscles in the country. And if the PKI attempted to coup, I think the army would put it down I think the army would therefore determine the succession to Sukarno in the event he stepped off the stage. I want to re-emphasize that as far as I am concerned and on the basis of having seen him continuously this last year, I see no likelihood of his stepping off the stage in the immediate future. What do you think United States policy lines should be in the future in Indonesia? This, of course, has been a matter of great discussion and of some controversy. Many people have said that our policy in Indonesia was too soft, that we ought to be tougher, that some of even said we ought to walk out, we ought to break relations with Indonesia.

When this I strongly disagree, I think the importance of preservation of American presence in Indonesia in terms of the total interest of the free world is very great. After all, let's take the policies of a government with which we do not disagree, with which we do not agree. After all, this represents a small minority of the people. Our interest is in preserving a relationship with the Indonesian people over a period of years. We're going to be in the Pacific a long time, and with the improvement in communications that is here and is coming in Indonesia and America, we both are going to be there. We're going to be closer and closer neighbors, not farther and farther apart. I see no advantage at all in simply picking up our marbles and going home. Now, obviously, there is a point beyond what might be called the limit of tolerance

and the point beyond which you can't go. But I don't think that point has been reached. There's another aspect of this I'd like to emphasize. Whenever one considers a policy in that part of the world, I tend to look at it within the framework of the Cold War. I ask myself, what are the communist objectives? Now, we know from things that the head of the communist party in Indonesia, I'd have said, we know that one of his major objectives is to break relations with the United States and to put on the pressure until it becomes intolerable for us to remain. Well, I ask myself, do we want to respond? Do we want to play his game? Or do we want to play our own game? And so this is the way I would see that picture. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Ambassador. We've been talking with Howard Palfrey Jones,

who was our ambassador to Indonesia for seven years until May of this year. Under the rules of our thing, I'd like to say, that we have a lot of things to do with the Cold War. But I would like to say something to you. Yes. I would like to thank you very much. You can compare the pulling out of Indonesia from the United Nations as the leader of all our men from the United Nations. I would like to tell you that Indonesia is now the leader of the U.S.P.P.P. The leader of the U.S.P.P.P. Thank you very much, Mr. Ambassador. This is NET, the National Educational Television Network.