1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-05-23; Part 2 of 4

it's been and that box three hundred washington dc and gets coverage of the hearings will continue after a pause for station identification on a great coverage of these hearings is provided as a public service by the member stations of pbs the public broadcasting service the pope the pain and pike

continues its coverage of hearings by the senate select committee on presidential campaign activities

here again correspondent robert mcneil and as the hearings resume republican senator bernie is questioning john caulfield about his contract with the white house about the messages to the courageous testimony and thirty four and very clear i just want to press home what to avoid referring to the previous testimony by mr mccourt we have these conversations in anything we do prof hill stated that he was kind of message of executive clemency to me from the current highest levels of the white house he stated that the president united states was in key biscayne florida weekend referring to the weekend following following leading that we were in there and that the president had control of the

results of the meeting did you ever have the results of any of your meetings with he also restated this testimony on the next take that before he even you stated quo i may have a message to president zappos call it you know so did you ever have any communication with the president of the united states with regard to so called clumsy awful to mr mickle the jewelry here in the city in any of your conversations with him he had long resident of any of these meetings there's a

good list of the never say that you know the president has instructed me to make this portfolio everyone else that's actually not if you're applying to mr mccourt well in any of these meetings for him to do anything in the gutters upcoming trial that you were accustomed to plead guilty this word has been covered but it is important because it was the court's tested my understanding is that your understanding about these calls every embassy and wiretaps on the end and see that this was his theory of defense a way that he could get out of it by having the case dismissed if these wiretaps have a courageous

actor that's correct it doesn't work for you if you're going to use nineteen sixty nine nineteen seventy rumors for reasons i will be working very closely with those people and it worked

nations of the world would you say that it was also a great many emissions a great deal of work in the white house in his duties on his know on his own in the caring would that be your impression it's possible so i don't have the court release a film and then have an astray that believes that us because of all these developments within treasury us does have a small and some still on the federal payroll good

job what did he say well i received a telephone call on the afternoon of june seventeenth just get a bit of the rhythm trio for piano circle united states citizens mr patton you know well we received a report that the democratic national committee

because of our protective capabilities are responsibilities rather another way have some agents checking into it some of the young people that we're not in a given that read names and we're getting reports that one of those not giving out the correct name is jim carter he said now do you wanna call jonathan ocean recovered from the shock and a kid will you get attention and the attention as well and i called the white house or the most of it was honored to his residence the time and i didn't mention is the fox have already contacted him

and i said to the sudden it sounds like there's a disaster of sunset and you speak to her about what's this all about the foggiest notion what it's all about but they're saying she has been arrested no usain bolt and i said my god i can't believe it and he said well i guess about what supports john mitchell and so i think that would be a very appropriate who said that sounds like you

us airways called was caught rather than clothing and destroy all this mysterious going to be ok it is oh wow again and focus completely on the seriousness of the misconduct but it's only i knew that it was for and i just didn't want to do it in my testimony i tried to get out of

it i thought that because i had asked mr wessel what's previously to set up this far from the outset of his residence that he could win this report received that will you wouldn't understand it was coming from a this was my way of getting the message delivered without getting involved we were all really mean the message can just call in general i was the assistant director cairo now to the museum with the invasion began opening on the court

well as an indicator of the coming from muscatine having worked with them and shown that there were others at the white house that work and that was about it times of the games differential equations mr mcknight oh necessarily expect that once a lot of other

leverage nine and the questions out of maybe at least in order to choose two thousand nine hundred ms mcgroarty well as a conversation about conversation any indication why

i think it's the ceo's duties wanting to land if you have any indication or evidence or suspicion that the white house was trying to proclaim it on the cia and the end of your conversation last record a sentence ms burgess boys it seems to me that the fund and in those circumstances you or suspect had been arrested on charities such as

ms portman been arrested and three possible alternative courses of action i'm speaking now they can't legally he can plead not guilty and defend himself on the facts or thirty contracts in tribal way to create circumstances which would result in his exoneration sent me a range of possibilities it presented themselves to this report yes sir this record as weapons extensive efforts to allegedly june invisible to plead guilty and he was convicted

but before this trial and conviction or at least during the time to travel before his conviction this conversation with you as i understand it and please excuse me from being repetitious but i want that clearly in my mind in relation to the alternatives that were available at the time of this conversation the trial was going on or at least he hadn't been convicted yet is that correct and mr mccourt told judy what i'm gonna plead guilty he wasn't anderson executive clemency he wasn't interested in here that was a logjam that he wanted out very unclear is at the essence of it that's the essence of the senate and that he wins over anything less than that to achieve that he had arranged in contracts with phone to foreign embassies roosevelt wanting you were suspected to be tapped presumably illegally or at least embarrassing later the united states government

so that a lot of those calls abusive remember his attorneys and produced in court as evidence of illegal surveillance so that the prosecution against him would have to be thrown out or at least so that the government would be so embarrassed that these alleged attacks on foreign images that they would dare not prosecuting father is that that they're intended have witnessed reporter with this or i was holding hostage either the embarrassment united states government with respect to wiretaps on foreign embassies are easily passed its ceo a galaxy of those foreign embassies was designed the conversation

that's right there's a little bit of the season i think yes sir yes sir

yes sir and it was nineteen percent it's because both you do thank you no question about it that's correct i'm melissa block

the album that's exactly right you are yes sir you know

and i'm michele norris it's bright when you were you're welcome i believe that in terms of the context of the message here is a longtime the only sometime last year

to be guilty you're welcome you know simon

right right sculptor who testified at length and extensively about matters of great importance in which you had a direct involvement testified at length on extensively about important matters in which you had a direct an officer you're aware of the nature of those transaction and the possible consequences from as scalia let you ever been requested to forget you ever suggested

that there be any kind of executive privilege underway and whoever requested immunity from prosecution from this committee or injure anyone else with respect to the information should actually that's right he's bright the

poem please take your phone my name is happening with the vision of the last name as us so it's you know as the icc join us now you as i understand it you have a reasonable hearing i guess i was appointed to the new york city police department of february seventeen nineteen forty three and left the department and on our by july two ninth nineteen sixty nine i was hurt a detective first grade and a commando special services in investigations of the new york city police i spent twenty one years in the program there are special services investigations

conducted investigations regarding a gruesome organizations within the city at any time background nations that we provide security for visiting the percentages and they're any closer demonstrations mit's over some difficulty for the state how long does john coltrane for about ten years and during your services while i was in the bureau special services to go through with a broad command for some time and then left for another command and that's how it's not a french now in july of nineteen seventy two the jury's even call from his apartment in june of nineteen seventy two can you just briefly tell us what the nature of that war was that it was the court's new

authority at some of our opponents that the twenty six of july and asked me to come to see him learn and washington dc the next day on a personal matter i met with him running time he mentioned that was thinking of contacting him mr mccourt a friend of his that he did not have his telephone number was a list that had been changed and it's a word i assist him and arranging for points out of the mistakes that mean what's it what was the record unfortunately listen as possible that many years of pneumonia they give me some kind of identifying information how it was

unaffordable that issue of contracting and what i did was i wrote on a piece of paper and georgia iowa deliver that corporate setting up a telephone and you cannot have this conversation the purpose of this court it's really want to work out this report expresses sympathy etc the rangers photo jacques that the advantage must have some identifying information so that this thing that this record would leak this week there was an incident recently in which it was the coffee left his raincoat somewhere and i put that in the that was the identifying information and i'm calling from houston and a mutual friend of revenue recovery i went to

work i proceed immediately to work at everyone the switchboard was i was a copy of the minneapolis a look around philly area located a place of blue something that has a lot of parking lots of telephone booths isolated by themselves that that the truth took telephone numbers of the booth with them on the nose with thirty two different times like two thirty four thirty nine and no don't know about a mutual fund which is just beat your stuff like the recent newcomers let's now i took the earlier them preceded this was a within the vicinity of course was reports residents it was place that i knew about from some elements of an infinite it was not now later

in january nineteen seventy three and received a couple of years ago where you know are indicating using the killings calling from california in california and washington he was not the favorite as mystical appeal says there was a lot of silence are subject to realize that there were two asking is a very unusual request for many reasons the timing of the situation that was in june and in response

this is interruption i knew it would be very convenient i know i know if the interest i mean i don't want to get into it or i wouldn't ask you to vote if it other than as i said something mr mcauliffe was being interviewed why amanda jack anything to that settlement will be expected to follow the record and he said if this ever comes out i will definitely admit that i have should have a listen and the circumstances are not a bunch of bases on me you know since the eighties and it was

for years and that time will grow your family will be provided for rehabilitation and job opportunities will be provided for you and as conversation which is that they occurred in a telephone booth and that was not the best as is oh yes before that

residents i did not have that number for you provided me with a number like that they have no right on my checklist of those numbers to the telephone poles and i have an estimate for these residents estimate was not surprise with a phone call and said yes i do they do is the party and now i'm renee montagne are you as a

longtime member of your family needs will be provided for rehabilitation and job opportunities will be provided for and across the conversation mr mccourt said something and it quite understand i repeated a phrase or two of this and there is something about i don't know that he asked me and you do have people was a lot of my message and that's all i recall of the myths i do and the other matter because i still believe ms mccorkle i don't know nothing about possibility and it is it is it is possible in a manner that

it had plead guilty came up in the conversation is quite possible motive in this now reports aig at bear you know no i went right into it i have a message from jack and he was in his responses indicated to me that day that he was expecting a message and i think satisfied the message it didn't mean a reasonable and that seemed surprised and that the asian church for us mr mccartin zero the next day for me get an estimate

to launch more liberal message to a lower court and that message was sent to me to explain to make sure that there's the court realizes that he's in california the mystical appeal is in california to meet with emotion as he returns for its political prisoners from california just a second to get that message to women and he said oh yeah after that said that he had planned to leave the bay area as plan was delayed in the courts that as soon as he lands that's a meaningless like that

was a frightening and immediately rather than the following day as i originally from lake my message or just kind of brushed me off and said i have people hear my family proud i know you're doing what you think is right and something that affect things for us are due to contact the iranians meaning you know that's right my word

you disagree worse conversation absolutely not strictly as a messenger that the phrases article and i did not know and i'm originally did not repeat them in my recollection as i gave that phrase

let's see you're welcome which is that's correct we could've been in an indigenous go on these three phrases a positive about the innocent to be about that

so families will be provided for rehabilitation and job opportunities when there was a year to deal with so i was giving the message is rapidly tightening that's something new that's a message these army came in the region and a discussion of the writing of the first conversations at that conversation to make the appointment and the conversation was to inform and that was to talk to the financial industry mr

leno sure that you did not talk to do all that you win for local with difficulty and it was impressive that statement that he wouldn't get these advantages that the island's socialist that's the

point mr chan i don't know any questions of witnesses it is it was very important for me was he was in some kind of opposition that wasn't great concern and as friends i said i would call the of the party coming out party in the white house i still was coming from the least just having somebody wants to quote you had to leave the white house who worked

yes i suppose so i mean they usually this is in context and this whole notion i was a know i was on i was on a non gmo at the time of these of these conversations and genuine anyone's employment i've known for the questions is why no question very much you were private security energy and washington dc providing support while you were in the midst of all to what was on the barrel of what we're receiving a salary

but still so that's one idea and no nineteen seventy one through the end of the seventies when you know it was disappointing as an outside supporting amnesty ms reinking right i investigate americans want a lot of them related to mean i think most lenders spy on newspapers allegations center of the

bus with its category probably is supporting anyone in its image in the investigation finds know i have been abused many years so absolutely yes i mean i was one of those very special simon service law were you aware that you were excessively the commission probably watched the criminal investigation as well if you do that you an eccentric but a friendship now you

might say that the question has been asked you know right now our limiting our inquiry into a single set of events and circumstances i understand that you're willing to return and to testify other life committee on other matters that you may have knowledge yo yes one question or one line question pretend they're much no matter and i suppose understand you to say that record was a pretty good wireman well over what either of the cases and from a fight the mystical appeal i am i would say is that one of the best line in business at a white man in and police violence would be anyone was familiar with

line wiretaps any type of bird surveillance is by political means so forth in a lot of prison and it will be overlooked by aligning with and i would say that that he was in this is that the term near term in this well while police department many of the functions that we get literally going to cooperate with the seller and judicial commission we have some the finest lyman common knowledge of myself or anyone else you make your rhetoric or no not retired man in a new york city police department to become involved in a thing like that and he thought he had to for whatever reason it was an inordinate amount

it's been years you probably more than life in a beijing commonly citizen late something right place you will find out that women in the same as pianist it's become any immigration court telecommunication links with what was going on and made without going in there with an arm in taking the doors in color as scrap this house that might have been

done at the wire or are men so i would be a good man for the title of an investigation and in a native village a question of obtaining information from a democratic party republican or anybody most bees use laser eyed wholesome cognizant the manual the leaflets which a lot of revenue will still get the very happy to see reactions and the politicians the most vulnerable people in the world in my experience of industry is that any kind of scandal that's the answer the peak because because of that thank you now

it has been former new york policeman at the us which has explained for the committee at me a treasury department official john caulfield and trying to convince james mccord to go along with a game plan he needed to pioneer the watergate defendants several members of the committee have made clear they would like to invite get lost with that to talk about some other points it came up during today's testimony and what sort of doing the job this afternoon there

will be another side of the story is carol ott reports former attorney tells his side of the story and it is significantly different from local impacts hearing coverage continues after the station identification on a great coverage of these hearings is provided as a public service by the member stations of pbs a public broadcasting service fb to pay the pain and that continues its coverage of hearings by the

senate select committee on presidential campaign activities you again correspondent

jim lehrer joe welch records original air is not taken the stand explain his rating of their relationship chairman asked him to announce that he is on his way to a meeting of the judiciary committee which as you know is considering the nomination are mr elliot richardson to be attorney general of the united states that he and senator bernie a member of victory committee will be here momentarily yesterday however the interest of time to convene a committee and scenes with bobby opening statement which we understand mr alter is now prepared to get along with you and the police station they feel how

many businesses as for just watch nevada's like i'm there to get the rest of it will be available to the committee during the course of the meeting to give your full name and address it's a terrible they'll see at lance's nine five or less rock creek parkway just that hill massachusetts yes it would be perceived that they please dishonorable committee testifying with a certain degree of regret this is because those

areas to which i myself are areas in which it is a criminal defense attorney believes to be somewhat sacred there is a lot of conversation between a lawyer and his client in the cost of a relationship where when i was examining my best to protect the interests and welfare of james debbie in court i take most seriously the well established attorney client privilege in my judgment in his testimony before this honorable committee on friday may eighteen nineteen

seventy three and in other kiowa disclosures both written and oral has waned such a privilege which i have been formed he has acknowledged the supreme court has made allegations concerning like cotton in the defense of liberty these allegations are in some instances completely fall and in other instances have been twisted out of context in june presumably to serve his president practice whatever that maybe but which impugning my personal standards are ethical and legal behavior i actually believe it now to deny duty and responsibility

and i have accepted the invitation of this committee for which i am also grateful yet and is a true narrative all my representation of most important in july of nineteen seventy two my office received a telephone call from within the court requesting an appointment on a saturday morning during the month he identified himself as one of those arrested in the watergate building on june seventeen nineteen seventy two he told me that he had taken a calculated risk in doing what he did

and was prepared to face the consequence is within that framework colorado he indicated that he wanted the most effective legal representation and whether or not my point attorneys believe that we would be interested in representing him i told him that i had advised mr bailey all of my appointment with him and then he missed a daley was not interested in representing any different the pain the pain the

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