1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-11-08; Part 2 of 3

it's b they're these iran entrance to testify and that i might be disputed follow that we found out that mr lockett was in the room yesterday without that early obama's casanova was that of an affidavit from him just like we had with every other participants and we are awaiting that and we'll see transmission or are making when it comes you're speaking with abortion of the affidavit of mr kazan no well this is simply no to the interview mr chairman we ask is because nobody would provide us with an affidavit this was i believe sometime last week we have not seen that in the last week we are currently activated is or should be submitted by councilman specialist taylor

will we get caught we now have two puppies and will's lot of this is not yet and that is this is that scientists now that that if you arrange with this decrease just to see mr stearns the following morning yesterday and how certain it out originally contacted hugh sloan who is the treasurer of the finance committee to reelect president i explained to him the nature of the meeting which had been breached because he thought that that would be no problem in arranging for some meaning and seventy was is that the next morning after the week meeting in my room i met mr peterson seventeen along

pennsylvania avenue in washington dc outside of the secretaries are there so drug use but logically i was a meeting set for idaho of the memorial acquitted of the eleven o'clock it clear that the meeting was postponed really from nine to eleven i know rebecca up and also now that you're communicating with is this stands set up this meeting it i don't recall whether i talked to secretary defense directly but that i do know that whenever i made a point to visit with the secretary i want can you slow so i'm really less useful you are in effect a liaison with mr stearns yes sir and dealings with businesses i extend

it into social workers that i talked to in the finance committee to rely on we were organizing our committee and throughout the period of time that that lester sloan was tracer of the committee out whenever i was in washington and i have occasion to go to the finance committee i always try to make a point of the sable him and that i guess you're familiar with the spirits won't role in this whole investigation bring it to the attention of some of his superiors grabbed the beginning of a familiar with the testimony of an earlier phase of this hearing was on business loans was upset about some of the events that came to his knowledge of back in late june of nineteen seventy two and worked at his knowledge to the tension of a person's general with business loans however an education for truthfulness and yes sir and do you agree with that reputation as being an excellent yes sir could you

tell if any of the persons in this is that his office anything about this decreases his background before the time he came to visit other than what i've indicated you today in my testimony i didn't know anything about these two pieces back on the beach or tell anyone that he was coming up and discusses problems i know it and discusses his visit with a number of secretary stanton it talking to people and i've talked with respect for the preseason unusual recollection that involves neither of them about was the priest faces potential problems that correct no that is not correct but i don't recall whether with secretary when it was slow and it indicated to them exactly what the two pieces have told me in miami

to where it was and that he wasn't sure he would investigation of an information like that and what size contribution did you tell the severe cyclone or the secretary that mr bruce would bring twenty five thousand out and you never tell anyone and that officers the stands there's this loan their secretaries was that that was the creases would give a contribution anything larger than twenty five thousand uh please tell us the generation that he was a hundred thousand meter know so please tell us what happened at the meeting in seventy no one letter mr sloan i open the door to let a sendak i step down

either mr priestess and it goes masterpieces to secretary spent and introduced them as a potential competitor in the amount of twenty five thousand dollars we've also now the secretary and pieces any mother twenty five thousand dollars it was made out i believe that the republican national committee and signed by a man who i've since learned is named martin well i did notice a signature of the research and this is the first time so that a yes was that ended up i took the check and headed to the secretary and that who are the prisoners for his nomination thank you know then mr lee says secretary that he wanted to discuss with this problems in miami with respect to the harassment that was receding by the

miami herald he had with his father a newspaper to run tried to the secretary the fact that he was being subjected to a great deal of criticism and a regular pressure on some of the basic by the miami herald and the older to the second term he was secretary possibly in ten fifteen seconds in miami florida no surprises after secretary to pick up a colorful and george romney who was then secretary of iowa and discussed within this particular problems with crime so the difficulties that he was and

technical difficulties that he was not and the secretary i don't know anything about you is that you add we want nothing to do with the masterpieces lester spence and had to check back to me and sent them do not the check until you hear from me and that title secretary that i would adhere to his instructions that was about the end of the meeting mr lee says excuse himself walk out i talked to the secretary and to the signal bigger information about ten days

later a major that was the us has a few questions about your writing anytime was a discussion about was there stands making a telephone call to anybody you know this is the second thing is that this is a problem mr that this did not happen no sir could you tell us mr priestess to bring up his rap up with him yesterday and what was the purpose of the sleeve to show secretary how he was being harassed by the manager i do well when they didn't just as easy though that was the thesis explain what was happening to him since the stories would not really add that much about really it is emotionally involving a smattering of the very most educated man and now the people in terms of time

maintain a steady conversation i don't think you know what about me and explaining and this particular trouble at any time during the conversation that business that indicates surprise or disappointment over the size of the contribution nose at any time in the suspense indicate surprise disappointment or concern over the fact that somebody with problems was being presented to him in connection with or the same time as a campaign contribution i guess he was concerned because of just to reiterate so concerned that he instructed me not to be positive chat let's let's take a look at the fall but there was no

surprise i know my reaction would be that he was pleased that paycheck in the marble point five thousand dollars was going to be donated to the national senate finance committee is sousa chairman we have received as you know a mr thompson those of communication from james our stoner mr sloan florida's of this same nature as the communication received by mr stearns and i would like to ask the voters of the committee to receive it on the same basis as resistance communication was received i'm turning forty seven others november seventh to sign but not the water out of the rules committee of course not you're saying that

unanimous consent chairwoman oh you're the president was dead that previously that humans will be granted if there's any member of the committee and there's a pause there is no objection to produce it's a letter dated november seventh nineteen seventy three just to senator durbin and signed by james are still there on behalf of stoner trees rovner december and i understand from counsel for the committee that the testimony didn't lose loan would be helpful to the committee and completing its recognition events that occurred at a meeting in late march nineteen seventy two the office of the finance committee to re elect the president the message on priestess ben bernanke is

always spends you the views known junior and others mr sloan presently resides in birmingham michigan and it would be interviewed him to come to washington to testify or to execute an affidavit saying this not on a timely basis and accordingly he is authorized me to submit a statement on his behalf as lester sloan says charney i have discussed this matter with him on numerous occasions and it owes you a statement which i signed on his behalf which i have reviewed with him in which he hasn't formally accurately reflects the testimony which she would get called as a witness i trust enclosed david will be helpful to the committee and there is a two page statement of uw sloan jr i was informed that about lake there were nineteen seventy two ben fernandez approach really stands chairman of the finance committee to re elect the president and told him that he thought that the spanish speaking community in the united states

could raise one million dollars for the president's reelection effort and asked and records of contributions by the spanish speaking community be kept separate from other campaign contributions the rapper finance committee was born with mr fernandez as chairman and desist and asked me to act as a liaison with this committee which i don't have to do it about early march nineteen seventy two mr fernandez indicated that he wanted a vacant property hispanic finance committee and said that he would stop a potential contributors from florida and mentioned that he hoped it had a couple contributors in the one hundred thousand dollar class including john priestess we want to miss the stands today after i took a listener stands <unk> ask for the background based upon what mr fernandez told made a perpetual memorandum to miss the stands including the fact that among the forces wanted to see him was a potential one hundred thousand dollar picture bigger quantities of fernando's justices agreed to meet with prospective

visitors of that in march nineteen seventy two five spanish speaking persons including mr fernandez and this decreases that briefly with mr stanton that it was no significant discussion that i recall immediately after mr stearns they're probably what was the preseason after the meeting this is that was upset and expressed his displeasure with the meeting today stating that picture bigger or was not in the one hundred thousand dollars plus as we've been led to believe and fervor that he was concerned about was the priest has personally <unk> that we would have to have better clearance of potential contributors wanted to meet him liz the truce has had a raucous meeting with a contribution in the mormon church however there were problems regarding use of the checkers a campaign contribution and much of the church was not without a proper paid finally be able to the republican national committee rather than to one of the campaign committees in addition ordinarily a conservative who

made a contribution by chad and an amount over three thousand dollars would break his contribution into units of three thousand dollars on a check which was the pieces that was fourteen out in excess of three thousand dollars the publication was the only specific occasion but i recall just as a meeting with potential contributors introduced by mr fernandez with and they have been one or two others it is dated november seven nineteen seventy three and it's executed shoot debbie sloan jr bargains are still are turning mr fernandez is there anything you want to say concerning business loans us statement does is as a

hole wyoming would be i do not recall at any time ever mentioning this decreases to anyone they will tend to one hundred thousand dollars in trips or one hundred thousand potential contributors too as i've indicated earlier in my testimony and that with me and pledged that they would raise one hundred thousand dollars or more like do not recall at any time the masterpieces the polls but a lot of the next year after the meeting about ten days later i received a phone call secretary stands out and he told me that we should return masterpieces this chapter at the man was in serious

trouble contrary to what he had indicated to us in the secretary's office of the secretary said much is it a too will return this money to the manic week we better return it because he's in trouble up to his ears and die because all that if we accept as donations i think the secretary and within several days the jet was determined to do it with this i do recall he says that we could not accept as the nation and it was suppressed long haul jet was returned items to break all of our communications with the man in the meeting

on occasion to lose the prius is that the committee did not accept his contribution whether mr priestess telephone you know i don't know you for this testimony that he did you have any reason that that that's a lot of the testimony is not true yes a convicted liar his entire story is a complete fabrication i would believe he said that the son was writing tomorrow i resent about intent in many details i guess are there and you just heard to people in the casey casanova mr sloan that your testimony recollection sending one hundred thousand i'll probably not correct is that true that is not the idea and for me

it was mentioned when he was interviewed by years and the other is in memory we work with the community that's an overstatement so i think that that we wanted to find out that the contribution or maybe twenty five thousand dollars for the couple in miami today and they testified i believe that the idea that it was never mentioned is correct but i think the record the

speaker's office and i think so now for women patients women wanted what was was a further contact with mr priester is not a mine on you to have a submissive him or contribution of five the notion i don't recall i don't recall ever happens after the initial report is that is possible and it did occur within activist

says voted to cut off contact with masterpieces that is correct that's why i think it's improbable i wouldn't communicate with them the phone call where i want and that we cannot accept it there's the majority staff questioning of them fernandez huerta dictator short right now on the television coverage of the senate watergate hearings will continue after a station identification it's an abridged coverage of the hearings is being broadcast as a public service where local public television station this is pbs public broadcasting service fb the point

right and that continues its coverage of hearings by the senate select committee on presidential campaign

activities it again and bad correspondent jim we're as worried about that area's now chief counsel fred thompson is asking the questions you're in a relationship and as business travelers wanting to allude to the fact that he was building low cost housing and that area a large number of the people that work by ambulance more spanish speaking people speaking portuguese the mall near the discussion as i understand it then he immediately a mission is probably was telling us that was in the same conversation allison conversation we terminated the discussion with respect to that donation and i thanked him and they said then then he said now

most economists like to talk about something else and then proceeded to discuss the problems in relation to the us when he was receiving from the newspaper story claiming to have been receiving and of course those problems pertaining to his art activities with her was his contribution condition know what you might be able to form of there was an artist that expected some return on his money from the tone of the conversation about the words because dancing yes it was to get assurances of a fair and equitable investigation and hearing that that the results of the rest of the press would not have a bearing on the outcome of the investigation the man told me he had done nothing illegal or immoral and he was a frightened many said he was afraid but that i did not unlike the situation was my first effort at

fundraising ever in my life and i just unintelligible analyst al nas nas you did you know no sir i would not be involved in any kind of situation that that would be suggestive of political entity in the world and look at me now no sir when

you have a job i couldn't tell him about his i think you probably know is that the problems were i told him about the very briefly about the fact that the man was indicated stated that he was being harassed by the press that that and the secretary was very sympathetic with that statement from the standpoint that i think having some problems now and that are so he agreed to listen to the man you reach throughout our local his a newspaper clippings did you suggest to produce any takers clippings and june has arrived and want to suggest that i was physical documentation of his ass occasional his claim that he was being harassed

by the newspapers and it was a very formidable packet of the spectacle or was it was a two to present the a woman he was having or was it too informative tens of the substantive ability was as far as i was concerned it was to demonstrate the publicity problems that he was having a jewelry store you know would you have explained to his chances looking for the major problems are just as well although about newspaper clippings i think he would have had problems and communication is not that arrived in the few moments that we were with secretary stands he was not very articulate so it's possible march thirteen years you know

what i certainly don't he was very nervous and then he was possibly disappointed that the meeting that was long enough what happened the first

time i met with him in we had a meeting that lasted i would estimate between a half hour forty five minute secretary stands immediately outside the secretary's office we went into the secretary's office meeting last approximately five minutes thirty minutes and that masterpiece this relate to the secretary basically the same thing it told me in miami florida and i think that again one donation at and it doesn't need a check which i then get a secretary state of using the oven making a smaller chips

i do recall that he was informed that he would have to re write a check and make it to the proper committee one authorized to receive funds for the presidential and i don't recall ever there was any conversation about breaking it down into smaller amounts into oblivion conversation with regard to possibly giving them another check for more than one chapter and the names of other individuals of the most precious i don't recall that's possible i don't recall what i was going to talk about a recession or an image in the midterms effective perhaps you should do this competition in character a certain portion of the port and get absolutely not no word during this entire affair was there any effort on anybody's part on the finance committee to re elect of the national hispanic finance committee took me a cash donation from those men

a longtime else catch ever discuss exactly what the most uncertain about the chip as we assist as informed this man that the church would have to be re written because of the fact that it was not a major league hit secretary kept the church understands and then has to please those he want to discuss what mr spans there's problems happening with the press in my hand and he then proceeded to go into the same congress are saying that loving it had with the overture back to before he remembers dollar after i gave to me actually after the battle after the presentations to persist for merkel and

fifteen seconds and was his reaction to the newspaper clippings none because i don't get time we don't want to say that you're mr bridges it yeah after he listened to masterpieces he told the strictly says yes the survey says whether or not masterpieces was guilty of any wrongdoing with respect to his corporate activities in miami florida mr cleese as obama's secretary that he was not we report and no serious consequences and oh it was on a frigid

it's possible that he had and that their stated that he might be suspended he was concerned about that price then subsequently a an unfair hearing which could result in some form a suspension for he and his friends you mentioned kish a moment ago and i said absolutely not to ask the question about this doesn't fit what is your policy with regard to ethical decision to solicit this competition absolutely not because a reasonable the receipt of cash in our organization presented a very serious problem we were very few of a symbol of national headquarters for example consisted of two people myself and a secretary and as a consequence and the few occasions when we get received cash twenty five or fifty dollars donation we would have to go to the bank get a cashier's check before we submitted to the

finance committee to re elect the president a week and have time to do that sort of flood consequently we've discouraged at all times in writing an oily core people involved was we discourage the receipt of cash mr okra whose presence in washington at the headquarters they'd have to get on him about it at the time then you wouldn't have had the problems you mentioned was there any discussion of that inquiry gets with him or anything like that no sir moses left turn your reforms reduced yes sir back sometime later partially how long was appalled and i would estimate about a week or ten days later and review for political issue and how long was it before you have to turn reached out to three days how to do a virtually free return it

was a physically return to what one of the finance committee people in florida with and returned the check to recall the name of nasr i do not it's been tremendous you stated that the ireland mr priestess king to see you that he showed you put things and then offered the twenty five thousand dollar contribution yes that it provided that have masterpieces came into my room and so i for a few minutes then i oppose decreases that i have been informed that he was going to make a fifty thousand dollars donation to the campaign

i don't know and i operate accept his donation place to receive about who had informed you that he was going to contribute two of the organization that you're representing and then when he'd show you the clippings out after we got to discussing his donation to the presidential campaign events and this isn't that time excuse me did you know he showed me to me and i saw some of the headlines

about that was that two or three inches that and i have read that the arts and he explained to you that jackie had some problems ending with at the time or with fha yes sir that there were charges filed against him then they're just spending is it eligibility would eat at about that he told me that it was a low island builder and that is a reduced it at least be double and the miami herald he was building and it was taking in and he was very much

and then they made sure individual with respect to the local office of producing on the housing problem and right now they're being harassed and that this was the nature of his problem with other people then they did the things right to ask him to bring things to its fans because i didn't have time to read the clippings and possibly secretary stanton members of this that reveals that we humans thought that they were very important and very revealing we got to remember things with washington you're not sure that i thought that that he was putting to verify the intensity of the harassment by the press and i couldn't think of a better way to demonstrate that a legitimate tenet of things along with that now big day you asked him why top of the national hispanic their association knows the financial situation

now big debut inquires who had advised him of your presence in miami or wherever it was no so i did not because the individual and introduced us farid partly out of the hotel and gasoline i don't know that that individual was an individual there i have been receiving a lot of publicity and miami because of the appointment of national chairman of the national spelling finance committee i have met some of his colleagues previously it which was why would then i can't understand why masterpieces would select the national hispanic finance committee by reading some publicity about you in the paper and that's like you'd make a

contribution of twenty five thousand dollars four hundred thousand one of it is when he could have opened the video is at the committee to reelect president in washington well it was on i think american indians are one of his colleagues who was a cuban american introduce doesn't set up the arrangements for the meeting and i had met that his colleague in the day at a cocktail party and our cocktail party consequently it was a convenient thing to do a man who greatly says that you know it must've been told by someone that you would be a good career for his contribution and there since he was not interested in politics as he so testified yesterday he must've been injured and trying to get some satisfaction and again with respect as possible well that's

i think it's sheer speculation on what went on that man's mind our way to realign that he might have had an interest no idea and just a man was that he wanted to make the only twenty five thousand dollars you just look at nando you thought to yourself well here's a good man and he wants to contribute to the court that twenty five thousand dollars now the word then yes then entered into the testimony here would you explain to me so that we have on the record what their needs than four percent ip letters of a nonprofit corporation called the national economic development association which i founded several years ago for the purpose of fostering the free enterprise system among spanish speaking people throughout the united states has done operations it's basically searching management consulting company with

regional offices throughout the united states how is that operation finished when i was chairman president that we received a grant from the small business administration and the amount of six hundred and five thousand three hundred and fifty dollars in a sense then transferred into the department of commerce under the author's a minority business enterprise where a preseason on cooperation and what punishments did you perform do me down while you are the president of this organization well i was a full time chairman of the board and president of knew it was my primary responsibility to organize the corporations in its entirety about to establish a board of directors to lay out the policy is working with the board as to the objectives of need it was my role to recruit trying to motivate all of the members of the executive team of needham and with one or

two exceptions i personally and that every management consultant that works with an organization in every office in the united states i mean he's the president these us presidents get counseled to our applicants for our fighters for banks and bailing in monessen residents yes sir and did you have your own organization also doing some work yes sir or what was the name of your own individual organization research incorporated and that was the function of this organization of research and organize how an organizational financial institutions did you at some of these applicants in conjunction with the effort that were being put before crimea nelson other than describing to them what the procedure was if you want to organize a bank or savings and

loan or investment company i went into great detail people would know what the procedures would be to move into the field the next did you charge them for their service know you mean to tell me that research incorporated did not receive any fees now for the services at all that is not what i intended to censor you asked me whether i charged people for these injuries and instructing them how to prepare an application i did not charge them for any use whatsoever if research incorporated work can be read the time to actually do the work for them that's a different matter where they retained on numerous occasions and a research incorporated was your organization yes sir or whether any other owners of research incorporated so were there any other one is lost it would be a research incorporated yasser and while media was

there advising these people to process applications and the act of long applications how far truckers and for butch otter for banks robbing banks and their billion loan associations they were at the vatican's point in hiring research incorporated to do most of their work that is not necessarily true but what is true in every instance as chairman of need when i would give a lecture for example in el paso texas where i lectured before the business community firebirds and the organization of the bag lady and research and i went to great lengths just listens

ultimately these people to be completely ostracized how many retainers cities would you say have reserves incorporated received from our visa applicants i don't want this i don't know where you you with a solo there right i don't think that my cell research operations they operate their own shop was a small consulting corporation i think you're in atlanta i was chairman of need i visited research incorporated one visit but really really it was the usual fee that you start to organize the legal fees economics these are ten thousand dollars which i which are on a christian i mean the state superintendent of banks and givens

that sir a federal savings and loan in this we're talking about one year period of time but these are approximately fifteen thousand dollars for legal fees economics the financial consultancy no longer does approximately how many bees were received by research and corporate i don't want her during the period that day you are entering service to these institutions or to the applicants i would estimate the way to the best of my recollection maybe ten and i know i was in a qualification also because of the fact that i was no longer involved resurgence operations it was also there was this brilliant that corporation and that i guess that's that's probably not likely at corporate taxes

on less than ten thousand dollars and that's really the process of sonia which received money making schemes would use on your sleeve applicants vie for the record and i would use the idea that record of receipts for retainers of which you receive a new applicants for the record well i personally received nothing not research and corporate world researching what it was no longer my sure that we represent which you refer can be made available to a new supply am that information nelson requested information what is their understanding of the records are not your possessions and tory is where natalie just that request that some ever be made to obtain them so council can

indicate a willingness to try to obtain them and said that i think that might be does that agreement is right why did you leave it the presidency of the national economic development association i have a knockdown drag out battle with certain crew members of the board who won control of the organization and they have the numbers and consequently every time what charges that they bring up during this encounter the executive vice president and this encounter set me up on the standpoint of having the members of the board vote against me in a boycott for example number one he stated that that i had given instructions to the staff that under no circumstances was a treasure of the

organization drew brees is any organization that was all i prefer the matter to the treasure it and not the favorite but the administrative vice president who was working with just reveals in this hootie johnson well i mean by mr villalba says that was certainly on the surveillance state that he had that receive instructions from me that under no circumstances was the treasure of the organizations define they go to be promoted into the neighborhood or national headquarters in los angeles and that this also was the package he went right now the line on a series of allegations against may when i have forty more problems on the board and did not receive it i

resign and i might add subsequently mr the old moog up to the president say yesterday became chairman of the board and the small group that wasn't all over the organization well one to give you an opportunity to answer charges or maybe in the congressional record by congressman and these are related in a letter which was written in the executive vice president now for the record i don't think it is available now we have studied the transcript in the

congressional record and would like to discuss the most vital point made by congressman jobs first of all the following charges are many ads against you one that mr fernandez used his position as chairman and president of made up for his personal financial benefit to that need help sponsor all the banking and savings and loan charter applications certain members of the media for that the tremendous team is still very much in control of media and implies that he can still carry on in the same manner than five at the media operations in need of a housecleaning now we would like to answer these charges one at a time firstly the allegation that mr fernandez used his position it needed for his personal financial

burden is true and while illegality would be difficult to prove there is no doubt that certain that his actions were improper we would like to inform you that this was one of the facts which led the board of directors to terminate the relationship with the national economic development association and i'm a warning in august nineteen seventy one second day to the allegation that mean this wasn't the formation of banks and savings and loan organizing groups made it did not benjamin hernandez formation made of them many of them on national media and he did receive his fantasies upwards of ten thousand dollars the group however needless death and media and on innovation never set that was three such groups so that mr fernandez former research incorporated could be hired to repair the surveys requirement however that is not to say that individual employee buy me that might not have been

influenced and maybe even directed by mr fernandez debilitating and the guy who initially receive the survey this is a matter which going back over mr fernandez was almost impossible to control and was another reason for terminating a relationship with it thirdly regarding it as captain gordon members being in the game and the formation of savings and loan associations and backed it is that was in the town that its employees may participate as investors in business ventures which do not involve me to clients on your resources and facilities therefore if a member of us don't want to participate as an organizer of a bank or in the best of an investor you about it would certainly be allowed within the framework for meant oh the allegation that a tremendous team isn't going to need eye and therefore the bananas can continue to operate the amendment is totally untrue this is the allegation that the nato operation is in need of a housecleaning is completely

untrue and certainly unfair for your information possible use in the future please be advised that we have a complete recording on that given the morning as well as a mastectomy which would be more than happy to make available to you if you so desire also wish to inform you that a representative of the sba when he was president we'll use your va needed a hardworking of the department of commerce in a small lives in this direction and we will endeavor to continue to do the job that will make you and i people who'd been his enterprise and so this letter was written throughout the church the leaders now i was at the outset yeah i don't want to get a new reflection on the tapping of the fine organization but says these allegations had been made i now offer you the opportunity to a make your own rebuttal i

were pretty much all sorts of weapons and i might say that only all over but i like i like being the allegations and the answers with respect to the allegations before and then it's at the request of committee recession quickly so that you can go there is whichever you prefer

if you'd like to take five minutes or ten minutes now it can do that to try to finish a twelve thirty or we can reconvene with one thirty are true and there's one very possible that in many more questions it's been the