1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-10-11; Part 2 of 5

it's both i think you're going to washington fb is that what the reason here's one of his campaign the initial letter the initial statements on the nineteen sixty seven that was a controversy among some examples of how this issue

have been used against bigger champion in nineteen seventy two i should get more of this story of a sixty seventy year extension created before her record for this report well i was his nonpartisan thing is that first i did not all interviews that i've made clear publicly on a number of occasions i have to do some of those occasions and the transcript of this committee including a letter which appeared in the news report on july twenty six nineteen seventy two right now with the charges that have been made against me and my views on the middle east wind got my current position was on the middle east is were widely publicized trip in the british press and this country i noticed an article from a jewish family on august fourth nineteen seventy two writes that in some of the reasons why i

change my opinions on the middle east in the intervening five years since it out in nineteen sixty seven at the same time for the first time they're clueless session on it's based on a conversation that inspired radio cake mailed rapid reversal in an attempt at jack anderson's twenty four percent august nineteen seventy two the gop field there's a whispering campaign against george mcgovern's western regional effects that was being labeled as really because of a five year old instead people have to spend his novel endorsements pro israeli policy and democratic aides called a whisper campaign against firms and likeness near that i hadn't established been published by the democrats' election i think that it's reprehensible and spurs piece of literature is that

attempts to associate me with us for an update there is a representative of palestine sheriff's organizations in the united states and you make this picture there are underneath as rich fancy coordinates campaign unless you want to devote his employer goes on to make a similar situation about mr gary hart mcgovern campaign manager on the basis of a holy fictitious of the salon article a fictitious article that appeared in the george washington university's student newspaper this is a kind of a slander and severe that i'm talking about one of the reasons why the reasons that my ron paul hornby with the ministers it was that i was spending so much time answering this kind of then this kind of charge but i would have been a political liability for our campaign in the los angeles area if i've ever cried with certain administrative authority there buzz buzz buzz and i resented him

before getting who's responsible for this mayor does much to understand exactly what this mayor is honest than an empty letter which the people for into an open letter of the jobs and a middle east specialist which you won't sanders international photographed the mass graves national association it's about the bees and i have to wear it and i wish i had waited for you can do that if you have that basically amounted to make your point is that the position that the israelis should the plan the land that they had gotten to them and resort international vice president

oh yes it's just the first of many borders yet condemn or so that it could not ban a provocation said that there had to be a just lasting resolution of the refugee problem is that the united states should in terms of president eisenhower's warning of them were quite like and fifty seven it says on the territorial integrity of every state and the lease proposal negotiations under j questions relating to recognition that time like borders refugees and water distribution and it was

i don't know essentially adopted in support of this policy would've voted for un security council resolution two for two in november of nineteen sixty seven that was a position we have then discussed y no stomach position united states government holds the day now i said that they would do things where they would meet again i didn't think that i wanted to be somewhat more sympathetically and certainly the average american american politicians but there are two things that is one was so the intervention and i suppose

as i said israel there is some like vietnam and the difficulties of their stance towards israel was positive contribution senator mcgovern and his campaign has made him a discussion of middle eastern affairs is an effective defense distinction between the two places and closing at night at a crucial no i regret that any state would either have made five years ago it's been injected into this campaign is an issue about that many people that honestly and accurately recreate their opinions of collapse of time would necessarily want to inscribe forever is a final statement the past cannot only thing they didn't swarm of our perceptions of the present so the

river water listeners whoa whoa israel politicians as you know we're both business

represented a third of the reporters as others will represent the misrepresentation of recommendations certainly are an association of having to associate me with that parents especially when you remember the press in the context of the little horrible massacre at the olympic games and the lord says the top assistant dean at the munich these pictures are also a propaganda machine in the united states he says our second choice after shirley chisholm with the best of them making the correct decision than palestine to this day and large pie that he still endorses regard this as rick santorum campaigned in the west has gotten association what it going the new york times they were sponsored by anti israel violence in the us

you want to have a reason for that is that it is will be sponsored by an anti israel elements new accessory did not consider myself and what i consider the united states national association an anti israel it is and remember this was in california generals in rural areas but so you mentioned now believe the same way as the us for that now and i believe that that i did as a boat

on june sixteen nineteen seventy to suggest that this is one of the issues that would have been raised in los angeles and over date of their body as they would have been or as the court's five michael oates who heads the mcgovern campaign said in that repressive advertisement had been circulated in california been successful against senator hubert h humphrey are you the conference showed that the government has raided that's defenseless attacks in the last days before the california primary at the humphrey campaign raised jewish neighborhoods of literature containing

such charges you know they are not at this art literature concerning idea that aquatic insects i don't think that are you for now and a voice you know this is even and i understand that he has heard evidence of materials circulated in the names of aristocratic

orchestra the world in california news reports what is this news report a story and reporters say i would characterize as a and influential the publication which is a closely aligned with the honest in nineteen seventy two they're members of the rules post the post mcgovern campaign has come under fire because i'm a man of a certain six day war

has been so certain so true the way it was originally you can find a sign that in politics it has a jack anderson reports on november tenth nineteen seventy one at the committee to reelect president as important as the head of the school but american division of the republican national committee and as an adviser to the small business administration it was about to disappear all appears

under the headline that simply is a little soft on that so i think this is just as reprehensible and associations the time it was made against the us is not the country we would ever consider using the campaign oh just a moment will be a senator an oyster and a question rich stearns right now rand paul's public television coverage of the senate hearings will continue after station identification on a bridge coverage of hearings as being broadcast as a public service where local public television station this is pbs public broadcasting service the pope the

pope from

washington impact continues its coverage of hearings by the senate select committee on presidential campaign activities here again and by correspondent jim lehrer there's no going back to the hearing's witnesses rich stearns the western regional coordinator for george mcgovern's campaign for us she fought the reserves division of the mcgovern campaign committee and as western states cooperate of the mcgovern campaign and it all as an artist so many of forty or responsibility did you ever openly opel both advocate support authorize or direct violent demonstrations no sir there's un those capacities which i just listed to authorize advocates support or direct the original publication or display of obscene old logo rocket's nose and those devices the jewelry or will will any other person and similar

party advocate support direct finance demonstrations over pension publication jeff bezos buying at the pump i don't have a long line of inquiry that you're going to help with some length particularly with rappers your opening statement i would like to make your way i detect resentment on your pocket you can call that you enter a picture being called was a witness says in some way an effort to keep that name that travel as a commute testimony about matters that are

relatively and consequential interview unrelated against their rather spectacular allegations made another testament i say that not because i have to agree with me but because i want to know i react to the totality of your statement stop up on and ask you to collect it to agree with that or collaborate on issues with it it's the campaign yes i do for a time the company has a legitimate purpose

i do the questions which to cast aspersions first somewhat writing i think are unfair and wrong and suddenly a man whom i admire very much i wonder if you could substitute yourself i'm in my position and if you think back on the idea of seeing questions of interrogation and witnesses and race which republicans day after day and we get a week after week with my full participation in that of my state some circumstances were they turned out to be favorable or unfavorable view counsel advised me to resent them being well and other renewable vision that you're doing your job oh because i would i would have to do the job that you thought was right what we're getting is the center of united states

that the government counsel you to do that doesn't mean i still have the privilege of that private citizens are feeling resentment that like we are for years i might point out an astronaut there hadn't been a single witness called an artist there a chance that there has been a degree of cooperation between maturity is their minority status that we're trying out their level best to follow the mandate of estrus sixty which is to inquire into the possibility of illegal or improper or unethical activities and i really got into not feel resentful about the questions are part because we're gonna look into it with his republicans or democrats and let the chips fall where they may so let's let's get on about the business of understanding that the public or

viruses one of general campaign activities and questions are going to be brought to you and other witnesses that for many years many years i think i'm going to make a difference they upset the questioning i would like to well are great for the record and then hands of the same for the record for identification it said the estimate on

october ten nineteen seventy three years and montoya i have examined a picture of michael mcmahon away what my office by member of the staff of the senate select committee on presidential campaign activities i do not recognize neither his appearance or his name no one was ending his picture was in my room when the normal during the evening when the california challenge was being considered at the convention or as far as i know at any other time since there was a secret service agent station immediately outside the door of my street and i was there and since even close members of my staff were cleared to enter only when i wanted to see them they sort of act as he claims would have been impossible with this regard i am sincerely yours you're jim mcgovern and that is submitted under oath and i would like to submit this letter after its poverty and invite for the record

i take it that senator mitchell you identify the letter as the recipient of the letter and if there's no objection a letter we receive in a public eye qualifies under the rules the committee believe rules that permit was twenty six which permit the submission of strong statement today on the testimony produced witnesses saw both passengers even evidence of committees party officially stands where you haven't and a mcgovern personality who's worthy so called peaceful demonstration in los angeles against president nixon and i don't think that anyone suggest that any medical personnel were used in

preparation i also don't think it was a so called it was a very peaceful demonstration the german press reports it was a peaceful demonstration well i would prefer to the los angeles times' account when they refer to the testimony about deportation least developed by kodak things without police departments and the demonstrators parade organizers of the demonstration for cooperation where the court may well about eighty seven to get moving please directions people organize this really interested in keeping it orderly as i said earlier los angeles times and certainly cannot be characterized as an editorial entitled the demonstration the butcher i think i think there is a general understanding of this testimony that the demonstration was peaceful and it did you know anything about the leaflets that were distributed regulated inviting

people to join in the demonstration now i think it is worthwhile to manhattan proper perspective as to what to do the demonstration and nothing's testimony is it really relevant at this point and you know the what happened this morning in the question and the answer in my view and i will quote now from a page ad or six all the press that must have you know been in the guns that workers made any posters list of demonstrators as to talk now they did not we were instead announced that workers to concentrate on a voter registration drive and for that reason i did not want them to participate in this effort mr hamad what this were used to make the phone call was to talk less that were

compiled by the people sponsoring the demonstration i believe on their lives they had names of persons who had who had in the past attended various activities sponsored by one or another of the groups that made up the coalition and then the testimony was on whether to indicate that but the only party that had in the years where an incredible to the mcgovern headquarters where the fact that some of these leaflets were my campaign their medication and windows are some of the only half the storefronts were utilized this purpose now are you aware of these facts i think

many of them now there were some telephone calls made they were made by people who were not associate with the government there were people handing the peaceful demonstration then they'll hear made this morning to equate it with me and so how do you know of any drugs that were given by the mcgovern forces against the republicans in the last campaign now you know are any false advertising that was engaged in by the un forces against the republicans in the last campaign you know whether there was an investigation or misleading literature on that one i'm saying

the instances at this fight to buy the who is one of the masters in that kind of a campaign for the republican national committee it now un anything indication that we sent them i am going forces are trying to confuse people such as mountain invitations to nixon had water and so you know where any fake press releases that were delivered to the press and the opposition and in the campaign manager own forces as a hilarious thing many of the nixon that makes a regular meetings you wear any other disruptions air of any mission means they're sponsored by an unknown forces you're

welcome liane any infiltration election fundraising is a republican fundraising you wear many hats some of that activity in the republican national convention that might've been sponsored by the roman forces show up as far as you know the minimum force is not going to be a campaign as possible jennifer jurney any questions i have the same feeling as they are acting chairman to celebrate your sister and so there is a churchill if you were

like your first interview and and you're being called him that it was a decision made by the council on tall you are one of their witnesses as the chairman has as pointed out we have yet to produce a single witness before this committee we haven't put on medication when we do a law and i'm sure we'll go on with this is that do have literal facts to contribute to something new to listen to producers understanding you were brought to a specific purpose or because there is a conflict in testimony with another witnesses and a lot of the swine flu of inflammable witnesses been brought i think that we ought to really make a record that

but just as with us it has been and the ads that are the bills that has been supporting a provision with the senate you know the question that happens it became necessary because it would lessen venezuelans then an n and i do understand too advocates point out the republican counsel the dust and for you can for willow belden council on one bank i simply point out the initiation of the interview as well as late as the decision a brain with those who really is nadal and that's all to straighten out of

business a very partisan you just one moment on why i really think i'm searching mild reaction to the witnesses' testimony that has disturbed as i guess i recall that this was the first witness i don't know and the witnesses we've hit the first witnesses lay the allegation against the committee that his call for political reasons and i must confess i did not react favorably and call him all kinds of majority and minority councilman volunteers committee witnesses and i fully expect will continue that practice that politicians only his committee witnesses optional kerry's statement that we are calling finding mission and what i the great cooperation between various militant terroristic and marriage is true i do have one question a short time ago mr shrum way to call a member of the state

and said that he has never heard of your has had no dealings with dylan he didn't but i'm a statement such as you have indicated it would you elaborate on your charger testimony and to show more put out a statement about the rumor among democrats and i don't remember i'm actually as of the destroyer is no service in germany if i would contribute some up details and vignette from my experiences that really are all of them in the golan heights of summer thought that was the whole war i ask him really never got the idea that i had any experience so mr curley or anywhere any civilian control that by mr foley at the great are

various are i didn't want to i don't want to a gentleman who has a close personal friend of mine who i consider the most and politics mr patrick buchanan related this incident to him and asked if he would draw mr shrum way that i thought this would be on the ground and that was enough for the three candidate because i know some were rumors and again the rivers not so long ago and let's hear what they had to talk to leave turkey and i would guess this is faster then sometime around mid july and where my office in washington monument an office you didn't meet minimum

prison he got on the former us scientists announced a great big thing you made a columnist des moines on our member's name the paper right supporting about it made that big impression and upset you so much it's not like i was under heavy attack because of a law that position i had ultimately says was on the culmination at that point and then i was receiving daily abusive letters this a telephone calls part of my own position of the campaign was the guys on the run and that's the adventures mr evans and novak and political scientists suggest that the issuer might continue in the campaign was that by this and this was just ate another incident in what looked to me and i convinced was a couple of campaign to smear main hall scientists as i can understand why you'd

be upset but don't you think that mr zhang wei might be upset to be tarring call there were angry saying they've never heard of you never had any dealings with vivid memories are very short statement and the best thing you can do here for us is one of resources sometimes i think the source family has the biggest family realized it becomes but the jobs when anybody wants to make an accusation against somebody it's all of mosul and you've done it against us to show more i suggest you find out the name of a german reporter papery worked for and given to the committee and we run this town that i know who's going to like no that's the purpose of the committee senator won well i mean might help homeless chairman if we're also communicate with mr buchanan who are gathered for a corporate or not corroborate the story which turns top committees on to suggest that the committee contacts

buchanan the massacre were not recollect secular deal that they're still objectionable part of the committee a request committees debt michael and wire in all circumstances organizers the clerk on nonpublic forum what my own beliefs were what the circumstances that led to this campaign in the campaign it simply to take that much time to be willing to cooperate with the committee counsel and trying to gather all that really soars

mr buchanan suddenly i respectfully made that this suggestion an executive committee would appreciate working with you when that situation up there justified for him a very astute observation when he said that and we cannot deny judges what we know as men you gentlemen are very sophisticated a group of the national political figures and i believe there is not what you say they're reading when this role would believe that the use of code words or ethnic vilification training now can elevate the political dialogue are nothing and this is very vicious situation that we should attempt to get to the bottom i don't really know german server questions of the witness but on the search for so they're questioning attitude of a majority and a minority counseling on this matter

the century plaza incident and exactly how it relates to the mandate of this committee and i mean by that that it's been established i think both by the testimony of witnesses and also more specifically by the testimony of officer heckman but the demonstration was peaceful now the conflict in testimony arguments raised as to who did walk the relative to guns people in california and the actual demonstrators in organizing the demonstrations and the difficulty that i have with that thrust of the thrust of such question whether it from majority minority as a once it's been established that the demonstration was peaceful it seems to me that we're getting into an area of the right of every american it doesn't but we are not reporting of such activities

either illegal or improper or unethical and other times the question of essay from from both authors seem to intimidate that aspect of the century plaza situation which related to the organizing a demonstration was either illegal improper and a korean it a recall passive the border with me today brother botany during yesterday's question question from mark twain connecticut yankee in king arthur's court and the situation something i think almost the time i remember he says you see my kind of oil will slowly one to one country not to its institutions or cancelled the country is the real thing the substantial the eternal thing is the thing to watch over and careful and be loyal to institutions are extraneous they are to your clothing and clothing can wear out a

comrade seems to be comfortable to protect the body be loyal to rags to shout for extortion threats to die for reds that has a loyalty of reasons bureau it was invented by mark i was from connecticut whose constitution declares quote that all political powers inherent people and all free governments are found on their authority in institute for their benefit that they may have at all times an undeniable and in the feasible right to order a formal government in such manner as they may think expedient in that quote under that gospel a citizen who thinks he sees of the commonwealth's political clothes are worn out and yet holds his piece and does not advocate for a new suv or disloyal he is a traitor but he may be the only one who thinks he sees this decay does not excusing it as his duty to agitate

anyway and it is the duty of the others to follow them down that they do not see the matter as he does i don't think anything can actually the basis for our writers to agitate like to assemble peaceably for bringing about change in either for making clear that once we've established the fact that the demonstration at the century plaza was peaceful as the most eloquent writer witnesses uncertainty principle of the los angeles police department then for us to pursue a line of inclement weather on the majority or the minority step and to help persons got together whether in the form of the mcgovern campaign or is individual have my way of thinking has no relevance to the mandate of this committee in fact very dangerous course so

i think it's important additional witnesses yesterday and and that it on the record it's clear that mr haldeman justified in some other witnesses testified ms dickinson was referred to refer to as a violent demonstration and that the committee was invited mr waldman to investigate that because the record stood at that time of the year although up a little the records show is that the sentence was a demonstration was a very violent demonstration of that in president nixon from being able to exercise its first amendment rights to speak and two events of the president i don't know that i repeat that fact having messed up his nose ring and that is good that is good evidence in relation to previous testimony what i am afraid i have to question as aline a question which involves itself not with the peacefulness of the demonstration

not without all but rather as to whether individuals can solve them together in an informal part of demonstration i don't think that that aspect of what happened i don't think it's a problem even reproduced and i think that i picked up there's no disagreement with my colleagues different recollection about the characterization of the rally but the record itself was thinking that we need an oppressive father the testimony and useful either the question he's twenty one and that was so that we felt that after we did investigate that california this incident that and you have that really confirmed that some campaign resources have been used felt the committee might want to refute that charge whether that was appropriate for campaign under a

mandate to use resources even though was a peaceful demonstration to speed in any kind of demonstration another question they found support abortion and mr masoud can say that you were present during our conversation we discussed yesterday on and i think october third i hadn't been there are having no recollection even as they need to avoid what your reaction would have been in terms of making recommendations to that people of what resources the headquarters of could supply to demonstration and i really can't

i don't feel a thing can you make a recommendation that this committee in terms of legislation as a weather as to whether of legislation sort of the interactive yes and the issue of a use of resources by political campaign aide at a demonstration peaceful or not is again i'm disagreeing as unnecessary with council that suggests less there is disagreement but my colleagues that question based on facts on the record to underline the opinion of what this as to be desirable in iran desirability of the inaction of legislation by congress is ripple effect it is that there are legal conclusions are substantial constitutional problem with that

legislation in that context he is hardly free of your question i just want to make sure that the witnesses decision like whether he answers that question and i chose that question isn't as i made it you're right i was in full agreement with the policy of the campaign was a policy that the us senators made very clear to us why knowledge of everyone and responsible position of the campaign made clear that made so clear we assume that everybody in the campaign knew that that was our policy but that week a unanimous elementary political in the sense of political tactics he could not abandon our interest to ron the rest of being associated with any violent demonstrations now in terms of the levees a recommendation i began it only begun a little education degree of my counsel i think that you are skirting an area where there are serious constitutional issues that should be right

now by a person humane we're asking the generally what i thought was a recommendation for b well yes to get into the fact he said that because he was well understood despite that was once stood there wasn't we think the members application of resources by the campaign for a peaceful demonstration honestly now is that in your opinion and arab this committee or to review possible legislation or another or for some other significant you should revisit with the constitutional inhibitions in mind that dr warning that i would make is that you're very close now talking about legislating people's attitudes and conduct i don't think he sincerely can't be legislated i think the city can be inspired by example i think there are the reforms that can be made in the political system in this country that will encourage again by their exemplary nature the same kind of visibility

i was recently within the campaigns the campaign finance finance act in nineteen seventy one which made wright's that i think towards all placing restrictions on the way money was raised and where money was using campaign i think the next logical step in the one that i would like to see take place as the mood for some full kind of federal financing of federal campaign's i think that would be the most frightening step of this committee could recommend in terms of in terms of legislation but the second you get into the question of the voter can legislate what people think other standard of decency i think it becomes a very difficult issue and the and i agree there's an official question but i think ought to be considered in a very bad and i'm wondering whether we can get what we can get your views in writing later perhaps keith hanson thought i asked whether we can deal with not a question of legislating people's thoughts and ideas but on the question of the use of resources is based on campaign contributions by hacked by campaign whether it's in this situation on the situation we

had our witnesses of using campaign contributions to employ people like to disagree tell that i'm focusing cylinders wanted someone to your question in a lime green the heat oh my my cultivated it would appear that mr ha ha eleven people in california had some reservations about the wisdom of credit from their reaction the unstated reason is it was found out about it will stop the gaza for observation make an elegant your own the story an executive session until use state on page forty four for

free on twenty leading the first let me ask you this do you know many occasions when a local campaign organization promoted of discipline in a demonstration against the president campaigns but the question is do i know that it plays mcgovern campaign dissipated and israel leading to what was elizabeth parsons done well it was our feeling that weren't major difficulties we had an investment practical for you with an agreement in a demonstration at work against our benefit that was certainly the practical considerations that policy and i think there was probably ethical considerations that would've gone to avoid that point

thank you the advances there before the question is one of any place and every campaign because of independent campaign organization does that in a promoted as a matter of policy administration the answer is no is what about ethical considerations welcome in i think i said that the ethical considerations would probably come into play at that point my cousin has been posed ethical considerations did not come into play because i don't like yelled this incident that you're talking about and i'm saying as a matter of policy we did not organize more demonstrations more would have well that's not my question your testimony is that it was not because of the butchered testimony is that

you did not promote that moment all of that for time warner about getting and also for the mouth working on previous testimony the ethical considerations would have come into play probably at that point now if you consider that this is a a proper campaign activity not from the standpoint of a person have a right to parade or demonstrate if it wishes to the wishes of the one political organization standpoint against another it would be an exaggeration and i'd say mr colbert was a mcgovern campaign received a memo it said that a hundred people are going to produce obscene signs directly to the president at a rally in nineteen seventy one if they can and

i think that survey some ethical consideration comes in the plot that would be an ethical consideration group of defense says there are things there are considerations or you retire into a new stadium they recommend no one ever gave me a memo are and what do you do good question but give an example what'd you have a man river and decide that there was consideration for policy and i think the republican ethical considerations that would come and avoid the political consideration come to light whatever consideration a common

way of this will use the mcgovern home by which is the question say well i don't ever evolving at any point lead ethical considerations i'm sorry mr richard ryan referred to that are stating that there was no question in your mind and you gave this festival that's a private matter set the phone banks and the question is is a question as you know in any instance when local governor campaign organization promoted or dissipate in a demonstration yes we would be promoting

is your graduation ceremonies you're welcome demonstrations mr john marks as a popular was a mailed to me during the campaign are unpopular with one of the assistants councils and eight i think it refers to

tomorrow i think lives and i think this move to washington dc a lot of i understand it is one of the heirs to the general motors for gm audi is a gentleman with arizona just about elections and politics has a life plan and you get a copy of the contract or i explain why we would not use material like amazon explain then reason we didn't is that we had and we have them yes maybe twenty

thousand forces of which i was one of the yeoman representatives of the time we tried to discuss ways that we could anonymize hostility among at least those four groups which are seen as the liberal wing of the party would you prefer bert ely conclusion or any information whatsoever his voting record two movements are not the best of my knowledge of the test for certain it would've given to him you've seen a copy of the material or i prepared it is taken mostly from the cheese produced by the senate itself it's a murder factual description senator must his voting record there's a summery to attend and factory called the summer a number of points i commend senator lost his records on a couple auditions a couple places in about point out that his record of the senator mcgovern sense of respect for that completely neutral though that i think very professionally done or in the states and i think the reviews unlike sixteen hundred or two thousand the fb