Playwright at Work; 2; William Murray

Dear Vittorini, the world of international literary criticism has been crowded for a long time with numerous purandellos, lame, deformed, all-head and no-heart, erratic, gruff, insane and obscure, in whom no matter how hard I try, I cannot recognize myself, not even in the slightest degree. And further down, he says, as a man, I have tried to tell something to other men, without any ambition, except perhaps that of avenging myself for having been born. And yet life, in spite of all that it has made me suffer, is so beautiful. And you see here is another positive statement without even a shadow of logic, and yet so true and deeply felt. And I think that's a good capsule statement of his principles as an artist, this can be found. In playwright work, we're exploring the working methods, philosophies and aspirations

of a new group of writers for the American theater. Our guest today is William Murray. Mr. Murray, a successful novelist and playwright, is a specialist in the works of Luigi Pirendello. His adaptation of Pirendello's play, The Rules of the Game, was presented off Broadway to great critical acclaim. Later in the program, we'll see a scene from another adaptation of Mr. Murray's, a version of Pirendello's The Pleasure of Honesty. The scene will be directed for us by E.W. Swachhammer, who staged rules of the game off Broadway. Actors in the scene will be Michael Cain and Peter Branden. Bill, I'd like to open our discussion by asking you, what is the difference between a translation and an adaptation? Well, an adaptation can be very broad, Frank. It can take enormous liberties with the text. A translation is generally considered to be more faithful to the original text in a

literal sense. I've chosen to call my versions of these Pirendello plays adaptations only because, where I didn't translate literally, it was only because it was impossible to do so, and I was forced to recreate in the American language Pirendello's Italian text. Why have you chosen to work with Pirendello? Well, a number of reasons, some of them practical. I think that the real reason, the heart of the matter, is the fact that I've respond very much as an artist and two Pirendello. And I also speak Italian, which is a fortunate break for me. Have you lived in Italy? Yes, I'm half Italian, and grew up there until the age of about 10 spoke Italian before I spoke English. What are some of Pirendello's principal themes? What is he concerned with in his work, Bill? Well, the first thing that leaps to mind is the triad old phrase, the theme of reality and illusion. I'm very much against pigeon-holing. Artists is complex and interesting as Pirendello.

I think, like all great philosopher playwrights, he was primarily concerned with the human condition. He was terribly conscious of the fact that critics very often try to pigeon-hole artists in certain areas. And I brought along a short quote from a letter he wrote to Dominico Vittorini, a professor who wrote a critical work on him in 1935. Pirendello writes, dear Vittorini, the world of international literary criticism has been crowded for a long time with numerous Pirendello's. Same deformed, all-head and no-heart, erratic, gruff, insane and obscure, in whom no matter how hard I try, I cannot recognize myself, not even in the slightest degree. And further down, he says, as a man, I have tried to tell something to other men, without any ambition except perhaps that of avenging myself for having been born.

And yet life, in spite of all that has made me suffer, is so beautiful. And you see here is another positive statement without even a shadow of logic, and yet so true and deeply felt. And I think that's a good capsule statement of his principles as an artist, as can be found. Well, he certainly is not the pessimist that he's generally regarded to be then, is he? Oh, not at all. Well, I think, in this sense, it's very difficult to be enormously optimistic about the human condition, and the more sensitive a man is, and the more deeply he feels, the more concerned he is, with human suffering, and I think the Pirendello was very conscious of that. And does he mean by that first statement that he's been critically misunderstood? I think to some extent, yes, he was very leery of translators, you know, and the Italian word for translators is tradutore. What is it?

The Italian word for traitor is traditore, and Pirendello said traditore, traditore. And he was very often, I think, in the translations made of his plays, misunderstood by the translator. Why has he had so little recognition in his country? Partly, I think this problem of translation, he's a very difficult, I don't want to puff myself up here, but I must say this, he's a very difficult writer to translate. His language is very meticulous, often very convoluted, and he's not afraid of very long speeches that are extremely difficult, I think, to playing very often. As a writer yourself on your own, do you feel an affinity with his themes? Oh, very much, yes, enormously. I think that he's of the major playwrights, say, Chekhov, Shaw, Ibsen, Pirendello certainly has as much pertinence as any of them. I think it's a great shame that of his 44 plays in this country, we know only a handful,

not even that, maybe three or four. Bill, can you tell us a little bit about the scene we're going to see from the pleasure of honesty and where it takes place in the play? Yes, it occurs towards the end of the first act, and basically the situation is simple, and trite. It's a small provincial town in Italy, the characters are upper-class or upper-middle-class Italians. Fabio Collie, the lover of the play, has been having a love affair with a young woman of the town. He is married, and because it's Catholic Italy, he cannot divorce to marry this woman. She is about to have a baby, she's going to have a baby. The problem becomes to find her a husband. After the situation comes the man who has been chosen to save the appearance of honesty and to play hinges on what happens. Is this the first meeting between Fabio and the chosen man?

Yes, this is the first meeting between the two characters. Angela Baldavino, the man who is going to marry the woman, has just arrived in the town and in the house and is presenting himself to Fabio Collie. Good. With that introduction, I think we'll have a look at the scene. I'll ask the director, EW Swack, Hermit, to set the scene for us. If you will, Swack, please. In the set behind me, you'll see a door behind which the lady in question is eavesdropping. You will also see a frame which represents a mirror. I think that's all you have to know except that the time is 1921 and the furniture is of the period. Any time you're ready, gentlemen? Please sit down. I must begin by asking you a favor. Go ahead.

Go ahead. Which Collie? You must be frank with me. Of course, I could ask for nothing better. Thank you. However, I'm not sure you understand what I mean by this word, frank. Well, I don't know, open, sincere. What then? It's not enough. You see, Mr. Collie, inevitably we construct ourselves. We what? Let me explain. I enter this house and immediately I become what I have to become, what I can become. I construct myself. That is, I assume the form of the relationship I wish to achieve with you. You, of course, do the same with me, but behind these constructions there lies hidden our most intimate thoughts and feelings. All that we really are apart from the relationship we want to establish with each other. Have I made myself clear?

Oh, yes, yes. Very clear. Perfectly clear. My cousin told me you were very intelligent. So now you think I'm only trying to prove to you how brilliant I am? Oh, no, no. I only mean, I agree. I agree with what you've said. That's all. And I'll begin by speaking, frankly. Mr. Collie, for some time I've been disgusted with the wretched subterfuges I've had to resort to in my relationship with my equals. If you don't mind, I'm including you in this category. Oh, not at all. I look at myself. I'm always looking at myself, Mr. Collie, and I say to myself, look at what you're doing now, how disgusting, how revolting. No, really? What? I'm sorry, because it's true. So then you might wonder why I do such things, and the answer is because I can't help myself. And one to be one thing or another is easy, Mr. Collie, the whole problem lies in succeeding. We're not alone, you see.

We ride through life on the beast within us. Beat the animal, but you cannot make it thick. Try to persuade a jackass not to rush to the edge of a precipice. Beat it. Whip it. Kick it. It can't help going there. And afterwards, it looks that you reproachfully, can you help feeling sorry for it? And I mean pity, not forgiveness. To forgive a jackass, you'd have to be a bit of a jackass yourself. But feeling sorry for it is something else, don't you think so? Oh, of course, of course. Now then, can we talk about us? That's exactly what we're doing, Mr. Collie. I have told you all this to make you realize that feeling as I do about the situation, I must maintain my self-respect, to pretend would be horrible, disgusting, unbearable, the truth. Yes, exactly.

Now then, let's see if we understand each other. I'll just ask you a few questions. Oh, what? A few questions, if you don't mind. Well, certainly. Go ahead. Here we are. The basic facts. Since we are going to be open with each other, you, sir, are the young woman's lover. No, just a minute. I don't think it's necessary. Very, see. You won't even answer my very first question. Of course not. Because, because... Because, it isn't true. You mean you're not her lover? Well, then, you have to excuse me. I told you I had my self-respect. I will not lend myself to this sad and humiliating comedy. Oh, what do you mean? This way we'll only... I mean, there's no need to... I can only maintain my self-respect if you speak to me as you would to your own conscience.

Either that, Mr. Coley, or there's nothing that can be done. I will not lend myself to clumsy, fictionalizing. The truth. Have you answered my question? All right, yes I am. For God's sake, put away that notebook. You were alluding to Miss Agatareini. Agatareini, yes. She's 27 years old. 26. When she was born in September, we're in May, that makes her closer to 27. And there's a mother. Oh, no, really. I'm only being conscientious. Believe me, I intend to be conscientious in everything, Mr. Coley. Well, then Miss Rainy has a mother. How old, please? Oh, I don't know, 51-52.

That's all. Earth would be better if they weren't a mother involved. A mother, Mr. Coley, is an enormous construction. However, I knew there was a mother. So let's be generous and say, 53. Now, if you'll excuse me, I must touch on another delicate point. My wife? You're separated. Oh, no fault of yours, I know. But the world is not for the gentle. So the fall is mainly your wife. And here you found refuge. But life is little more than a lone shark. It exacts a very heavy rate of interest for the few pleasures it conceals. How true. Who should know that better than I? And now it's your turn to pay. You find yourself threatened by the usurer, and I am called in to settle the debt. Cannot imagine, Mr. Coley, what a great pleasure.

It gives me to be able to revenge myself on a society that has cut off my own credit, to impose myself on life, to be able to say, all right? This man took from life what he had no right to take. And now I will pay it back. Because if I didn't, a concept of honesty would disappear. The honor of a whole family would be compromised. It gives me great satisfaction, Mr. Coley. A revenge on life. That's the only reason why I'm doing it. You doubt that. Well, you have every right to, because I'm like... May I strike a parallel? Of course, of course. I'm like a man who wants to spend gold in a country where the money is made of paper. I guess everyone suspects such a man. The first is only natural. Now you're thinking of turning me down.

But the gold is real, Mr. Coley. I assure you, I have not been able to spend it because it is kept in my soul and not in my pockets. Otherwise I would have blended a view. Truly splendid. I couldn't ask for anything better, Mr. Balabino. Honesty, goodwill. Do you know what it means to be dishonest? The sacrifice of one's self-respect, endless bitterness, remorse, disgust. Why shouldn't I be honest with you? You've invited me to a double wedding in this house. Not only do I marry the woman, but I espouse the concept of honesty. Yes, exactly. And that's enough. It's all I ask. All? You think it's enough? What about the consequences? But consequences, I don't understand. Oh. I see that you, well, I realize how anxious you are to explicate yourself in a painful situation where you couldn't treat everything so lightly.

Treat it so lightly. Oh, no, on the contrary. Mr. Coley, am I or am I not to be an honest man? Of course you are. It's one condition I insist upon. Excellent. In my feelings, in all my acts, I am to be entirely honest. I want it, I feel it. And I intend to prove it to you. Well, well, what? I told you it's all I ask. But the consequences, my dear Coley, the consequences. Look, honesty, this honesty you want from me. What is it? Think about it. Nothing. An abstraction, a pure form. Let's call it an absolute. Now, if I am to be honest, I must live the abstraction. I must lend substance to the form. I must embody the concept. And what will be the consequences? Well, first of all, I shall have to become a tyrant. A tyrant, of course.

Not because I want to be one, but because I am the form. I am the absolute. I shall insist that all appearances be maintained, which will mean grave sacrifices for you, Miss Renny, and her mother. Your liberties will be restricted. And let's put all our cards on the table, Mr. Coley. In all your dealings with me, you will be judged, not I. My only interest in this whole unpleasant business is the opportunity you give me to be an honest man. Yes. My dear sir, you understand, well, you've said it yourself. And that quite sure I follow you.

Well, you're a marvelous talker, but can't we get back to earth for heaven's sakes? I, to earth. I can't. Why not? What do you mean? I can't because of the conditions you impose on me. I have to deal in the abstract. Reality is not for me. I cannot touch earth. Reality is for you. I shall be the intelligence that cannot forgive. But fitties. The jackass. If you like. Thank you very much, gentlemen. It's fine. Thank you very much. Our pleasure. Bill, what is Perendello's intention in this scene? What is he saying?

Well, he takes a whole play to say it, really frank. But again, he's concerned with what people do when they have to live up to certain abstract concepts. I think what he's saying in this scene is one character. Fabio is primarily concerned with the practicalities of the situation, but he hasn't understood what the consequences will be. The other character is Perendello's voice in the play. And he has thought it through and understands he has examined the concept of honesty, if you like. And he's reached certain curious but truthful conclusions about what happens to people who try to live up to abstract social concepts. And I think that this begins to emerge in this play, in this scene. Swack, what are the problems in directing the work of Perendello for you? Well, the problems are quite enormous

because we don't have a tradition of style, of acting style in this country, which lends itself to Perendello. Perendello's play is a very interesting because they originally, I think, came out of a kind of committed del arte style of Italian acting, which are lightning transitions, from real tears to real laughter in a half a second, which our actors are not really equipped to do, except for a few of them, of course. But the main fault lies in the whole tradition of training over the last 30 years, which is emphasized, and rightly so, the self, you see, the examination of self, which, of course, has an enormous trap attached to it, which is called self indulgence. Perendello puts actors, puts characters up on a stage. They are performing. His plays must be performed in quotes. They must be performed. And that's the only way to do them,

because they're high comedy at the same time, they're high tragedy. They're both at the same time, so that the problems are enormous. We're very fortunate to have two such wonderful actors that can do it. But it's a hard problem. We cast the other one with the rules of the game. Oh, it was a very difficult one. Very, very difficult. We'll find people who just do this technically, Frank. I don't mean just the interior transition. I mean the exterior transition. And play with style, so that each gesture has meaning, and so on. The whole tradition, for instance, which is in England, and all over the continent, I think. I don't know. I haven't been there. It's also, as a writer, Perendello was certainly not concerned with the, seems to me, what has been the primary concern of the American playwright over the past 30 years, which is the revelation of character. He doesn't care. What is he revealing? Well, he's a philosopher primarily. He's a moral conscience. He's examining the ideas by which we live, the concepts to which we very often, for the most part, pay lip service.

And he's not interested in the decay of a character, except the development of a character, except in so far as it affects the ideas by which we live. Well, Perendello wrote the following. I'd like to ask you about it. He said, society is an enemy against which man must defend himself by deception. What does he mean? Well, I think I understand it very clearly. I think that he means that the human problem, one of the great problems of living, is to realize the best that is in us. Society is very often the enemy of the best that is in us. It constricts us to act along certain set patterns of thought and behavior that very often have nothing to do with the human animal, with the evolutionary process, if you like. And Perendello is very conscious of the fact that we have to defend our human values by rebelling against things or escaping from things

that are forced upon us that are not natural. Well, do we have to defend them by dissimulation? Is that what he means when he says dissimulation? Well, I think in Italy, in Italy, we want to escape more readily by deception. It's a more stratified and secure and ancient society. In this country, I think we escape more into ourselves. We escape by escaping. We run away from social obligations. And I think there's a great vein of self-indulgence in the American character. I think this is good in a way. I think society is an enemy. Are your own plays, your original plays, concerned with similar themes, with themes that are akin to Perendello's? They might be akin in the sense that eventually, we're all akin. We concern ourselves with certain basic problems. There's certainly akin in that sense in the sense of what are we going to do

about a kind of social structure that we might not respond to or a kind of pattern of behavior that is imposed upon us, that we have no affinity for. I'm not concerned with certain specific problems. I'm not Italian. I'm an American, and I'm in my own writing, write about American, write out of an American background. What are some of the other themes that interest you as a writer or that concern you as a writer in America today, as opposed to Perendello in Italy 30 years ago? Well, for my own part, I feel that one of the things that I want to preoccupy myself with is the gradual but very severe breakdown in the religious and moral philosophies by which we live or pretend to live. I don't think that the new administration in Washington, for instance, is enormously conscious of this.

It's trying to restore to us a sense of pioneer virtues. I think this is a kick-sided attempt. I think that we have to evolve beyond and out of what we are. We cannot go back to what we have been. I don't think that this is the process of evolution as a society and as human beings that we in America are in now. And that's what I'd like to examine. That's really what interests me. Is there any similarity bill between that problem and the problem that Perendello faced in his society? Some similarity, Frank. I think that the thing that appeals to me most in Perendello, what I respond most to is his concern for the human values. And by this, I mean the values of the individual within himself. What do you think of himself? Well, how he proposes to live, what life means to him, and how one copes with the difficulties of living, particularly when one is conscious of the fact that we live really,

we pay lip service to codes that we don't really believe in. And I think that Perendello was concerned with that. And you are too. Yes, I think so. I think we have that in common. What kind of plays or other literary work, if you'll point at the expression, can we look for from you in the future, Bill? Well, I don't know, Frank. I have a play now I'm trying to revise. I think, Aswak and I have often talked about this, that the whole impulse, certainly of the American theater, is going to be away from naturalism. Don't you feel it? Absolutely. But it's been going that way for some time. If the theater is going to go anywhere, it's got to break away from naturalism. It's got to break away from the concern only with the revelation of character. And... Breakfast is a four runner ever. God, many. Gentlemen, thank you very much. Today on Playwright at Work, we've discussed the problems of adaptation and translation as they apply

to the contemporary American theater. Our guests were William Murray and E.W. Swachhammer. more This is NET, National Educational Television.