1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-08-01; Part 4 of 7

it's b who knew about the existence of the recording system in the one of other than me members of the detectives tactical security division of the secret service and i don't know organizations that there was a number of people requirements and that the tapes destroyed the only other people i'm aware of the new of the existence of the case at the time i was at the white house where the president myself out of this trading i did not know mr

butterfield secretary was aware of that but i understand he is so testified i don't believe anyone else i'm and i don't recall and has indicated that anyone else if he has and if you want to check those names with me i can confirm my knowledge is to their knowledge director of the federal bureau of investigation was you wear this was the director of the central intelligence agency where did you have a room that was secure with no recording devices were just announced to discuss highly sensitive matters with the president of the united states weller were only two rooms and what three because again this is it really on

switched on and off basis the only two rooms which were in the white house other office the alternate office of the president and the executive office building and then as i said the cabinet room which was on an honest with the others were on that you weren't the cia director would discuss because of a discussion recorded at all i'm just because i believe the laws that we forget that there's a compromise in the central intelligence agency and that's not a lot recording these conversations so the president would have for his own use an unknown reference on historical bases and accurate and precise record of everything that was said by tim and by other people with whom he was confirmed

was that the intention of the president eventually release all things those are my understanding that it was his intention was not ever to really sad things the competition arizona news not only in july nine you were given the table service member of the fifty yes yes i know i am not sure which one's own meetings involving what the president has to be to myself well i didn't want any president is getting in your response to

the inquiry you suggest that you ought to acquainted with the makers of law you are aware that i was aware of them this episode an experiment likely with the switch in order to set it at the proper speed skaters to start and stop the experimental as you say really yesterday veterans determine how to do it that it was it was not difficult to justify the ones that's her idea that require i did not require that spirit is it possible that indeed pressing

of your problems you may have accidentally erased portions of it is my understanding that that is not which has an amazing teacher i can assure you the center knowing that that that i did not make any effort to erase or in any other way over states that i wasn't in any form because as a citizen july ninth tenth eleventh and thirty july and i'll call that which creates an online ten twenty eleven as you listen to this tape of september the city on july thirty raised about you in this interview

advise a committee of the existence of the recording devices and that's why earlier this morning after he had any conversation with any connection between the state's absolutely no senator i did not have any conversation with mr butterfield i did not know on july thirteenth or in fact until it became publicly known that mr butterfield had in front of them at any one time as a lot of silicon valley as we do remove and science are no other members the committee is now taking the next sequence of examination in a moment senator baker will inquire further about the president's access to watergate information public television's coverage of the senate hearings will continue after a pause for a station identification on a bridge to coverage of these hearings is provided as a public service of the member stations of pbs for public broadcasting service the

pain it's been

and pike continues its coverage of hearings by the senate select committee on

presidential campaign activities here again correspondent robert macneil as we go back to that hearing sen baker is asking the questions science are no other members the committee pressed and i'll take the next sequence you and i may be joined issue on the wrong subject matter of dissertation on all the nature of the president's ear this step in her rage there and pick up a track from a different tack usual preamble that i come to get that which is not diminished in its sincerity of the fact that i did that repeatedly is that i'm not trying to lead you into criticism of the staff arrangement nor the president but rather simply to probe into the nature of the things that's interesting to me that you indicated in previous campaigns in your job the president would have been on top campaign says that quote implies to me that he would've been in charters take at least thirty major decisions are in

control of the decisions on the major developments i classify this is a major development matters spoken i understand your testimony of indicated that you think that would not have been the case in nineteen sixty eight because the president at that time a candidate for president have already found a delegate a great deal of thirty eight campaign and that clearly that was not the case in nineteen seventy two citing as you did his concern that as the situation and the several domestic initiative it away i don't know that i can get much closer to the situation except maybe to refine and re frame my question is what is there about the arrangement is there about the demands of the presidency or this man is president of my friends were what is there about this or preceded administration's that creates a situation it creates a situation where a president must take his the incumbent president less take nineteen seventy eight when

incumbent president is not involved in the major decision making situation is there about it that compels that over a dozen compel that worries that judgment i was the judgment made or have an alternative jet tanker moment you about the testimony john mitchell john mitchell testified for him no he didn't know about the great piano before it happened but yes as suzy van that he devoted the rest of his time to keep in the president from the one that's obviously an oversimplification and that's probably close to a major test and now take your testimony that no you didn't know about the break in and you didn't know about the cover up but that work the arrangement and circumstances were such that

you know know that you should add now under those circumstances i believe in your statement saying the question is not what did the president know the president now and that's essentially use and that might be a good place as the preachers take our texts strike that part of your statement and you get your statement before you could be certain that mark injury that section of your statement you know what they viewed as an hour up you can keep the

peak to peak they were in on the second voice is this awkward the president not now nor answers to reverse the question how could the president reagan when a boat you understand my concern i am concerned for any situation that would keep the president and concern with an analysis of the staff and arranged with the white house and there's no previous administrations on the nature of the person that you think about policy or domestic initiative that would prove that are ongoing as you say not at the present no underscore the wordplay and concern for the arrangements the relationships that exist may have come into being on to many administrations that would create a situation the present have no

past year we're dealing with the matter that has turned out that the matter of extraordinary importance a maoist us examine just for a moment the president read newspapers is the chairman of commerce and i'm sure you watched television he got his daily news i'm breezy had an extremely energetic and dedicated loyal spare they were where they were isolated it it's a germ isolated from time and that's they're aware of what's going on around them what is it that caused them to do it so if you or anyone you know decide this one matter such urgency that you were walking in the us there are two major figures in the committee to reelect president here we go that is giving the

president the opportunity to sign that describe for me in more detail how they get out what might be awarded in huge huge given the very precipice of that in order to play answer i think in nineteen ninety eight because a section of my state

voting is the section regarding the so called cover up which i had earlier that section defined as the illegal acts being taken if in fact they were going to cover up at the information regarding the criminal activities that took place at the watergate hotel lobby office building then you got your question any of the other sense of these two people were caught who were connected with the committee wanted something out another president did no vote yes or vote on final passage on the highway i'll take advantage of my colleagues here in late night speech on it that worked on every one's

happy along highway bill it's too late to change that i'm more interested in the us right now to do immigration that the question that was that was like why don't you do something about the two people on the election committee announced that the water and i simply that he did in a sense it using the facilities that the fbi the justice department also a very casual way to handle a situation of extraordinary i certainly don't think so is recycling situation on june seventeenth television news or the allegation that workers have been caught in the democratic national committee in either on the seventeenth the at bat gordon liddy oregon now tell

me what happened at the white house when that information as your city so that would inject capital or upgrading the activity up the information i don't know how the information was received at the white house the president was in walker's day and i was indeed a skein of time with his diplomas i don't believe the papers on the seventeenth were hurriedly at work were this festival of this is as you described at age thirty six million times any certainty be a question as to the media marketing your rather than at that time so that is the situation as it was at that meeting i don't

know testified that he was the only guy in town that time and again that he was in contact with various people of america this information as it was coming in from the secret service welcome frannie assume that to awareness and we were aware that the president it delegated largely autonomous campaign political responsibility for the people of your state at three am for the concern what better not heighten your sense of responsibility to look into political matters as a result appears to withdraw from the political decisions in the modern political prisoner is love is as i was satisfied that other people were doing so on a satisfactory basis and i i was so satisfied we still satisfied in the days following june seventeen

years and says the effort was being made it was really successful entrepreneur questions that remain in question arose but as questions remain innocent questions arose be those were pursued also served up a lightning bug center i guess better lightning but chairman mckeon most colorful terms of its lightning bug illuminates from us about her new retrospective because we were going to be headed and writers do the situation for him it would be more keenly in tune with the political consequences of the situation and still not neglect is foreign policy and domestic of michigan you see my developmental difference yes

that's exactly right questions are not invite criticism and i are climbing against her as an artist that system future to see how he's in relationships exist now how that might exist in the picture can you give us some advice on families that arrangement reality police reacted in a different way the war ii situation i'm sure there are countless ways and each president of the united states from the first to the present one has had a different status than any of the others and each of them i'm sure has found is that system the city's mayor

including me i don't think you can lay out a former senator baker that there is a way that a president's office should be staffed for work in baghdad that will solve the problems that might arise i think that has to be read in terms of the mosque you were really familiar with the best intentions and the way each of those men mostly work in vast differences in the way the white house staff was structured to work with that man the white house that the reason that a white house that the principles that this contest the support staff of the white house the reason that it changes completely in its totality when there's a change in president is exactly that it's a uniquely

personal office it really is the only agree with me we probably can't lead actor to micromanage different of modus operandi would probably can't describe that an arrangement recently the political undertaking these reversals the president first preferences could be redesigned a less equipped an early influences from this is this is that really are worth a lot of the what would do with this suggest to you know the politics and the presidency are so intertwined and you can't secondly that the president must continue to be a political price so there's no question about that and i don't think there's any question that the us president was it is the president as a candidate president must be i was very scared of the impression i had that sense that same point where i wouldn't i would say that he withdrew from the political scene i would say he withdrew from the

mechanics of the operation of his political campaign only about an early influences maybe it's necessary for a president to be more involved in the nitty gritty of politics you know even with the baby yes we evolved into what's developed a mistake that was made in and at some point by some people within that campaign i don't think that the data that the state buy it's it's it's and that that would indicate that it would be desirable for a president to get into the mechanics of a campaign i would say that if i were managing your campaign for senator it would not be desirable for you to get into the mechanics of that campaign i think i think you're better off any candidate is better are conducting his first all part of a campaign stating the issues debated his opponent leading the charge and leaving the mechanics of the operation up to his campaign manager and i realized that that again is uniquely personal

question that must be dealt with him and and the terms of the way the individual candidates like an expired but if we get another round and then i ask it so you might think about how you would've gone about designing a system that would've prevented this year memorandum or wait ten your version of it and give the main thrust of the memoranda and the navy button and jail sentences in this memorandum of the fall we need to get people to put out the

store on the planet money you know those important demonstration against the president we should tie on nineteen seventy two demonstrations and thus and the following this is a then in the last week then he asked about it and make a point that we knew and the president said it was not to be used under any circumstance and this was in nineteen seventy

two so it is basically clear romney you're dealing with a situation where are they going to raise we can yeah we knew about what the president said it was not to be you under any circumstance would you say then that is the content in power and meaning no sir well what i'm referring to is in conjunction with the preceding felt

that regarding the fort wayne story of those two go together and do not relate to be a career that's the first paragraph action on demonstrations are two totally separate matter is the reason i can support that the reason is that he was aware of it that has nothing to do with demonstrations or they're the murderers referred to and your partner how can you support that statement reflected on their way they can't retroactively to the campaign we hit it off in nineteen seventy two demonstration and gossip to the democrats reviews data analysis at demonstrations could be why because

i certainly am are the iraqis is to develop a plan on to what it's to what extent the democrats are responsible for the demonstrations that lead to violence or destruction i see in this matter not going back retroactively to develop or to use the fbi to use the other investigatory voices of the administration for the american people and so they were not responsible for the certainty of being quickly corrected the separation misunderstanding and they abuse of the fbi which concluded that one paragraph in here that says you should definitely were great to go ahead on the fbi investigation against those who tactics and agnew in nineteen sixty eight again has nothing to do with the demonstrations that has to do with a six point that

had been raised by the president at an earlier time when he had been informed that his campaign and he himself had been kept i kept by the fbi on a tour of the white house during the nineteen sixty eight campaign and because at this time and there weren't there was a resurgence and review of that sixty five the seventy two campaign and the discussion of things that were alleged to have been done by our campaign committee or people working with them and because we were dealing with the watergate and a wiretapping matter the question had come up as to whether or not this was a time to confirm the story behind this there's a record of wiretapping of mr nixon and mr agnew during the nineteen sixty eight campaign made you so

sure that anything that you know i was not sure that and as i tried to indicate they represent isn't the vikings in connection with the fort wayne story not in connection with any of the preceding letters in this memorandum well i'm sorry but i see that that in this memorandum and if that is true then i fear for the authenticity of the tape to the white house in the event that the courts reporter that we have well initially sentiment heard that it is not true and that you need not fear for that authenticity as far as i'm concerned or has been simple points that doesn't go up or

less unanswered i don't think i've made any of my republican colleagues on the senate floor or in the course of my politics in the last several years today he mentors a tribute to the bombings or demonstration was closer communist money its owner the democratic parties over mcgovern clear that the opinion was in the opinion of the republicans that that i certainly would and quite frankly insofar as a counterattack on this committee is concerned it again important point out that the united states senate voted seventy seven to nothing every republican with every democrat illinois authorize its investigation so i think it was in says that we understand that these impressions of what the candidate of the democratic party was sort of what the democrats as a party were up

to our mr paul simon's impressions <unk> impressions of the republican party you're welcome make the memorandum on october the fourteenth nineteen seventy one that specifically as mr walker mr you know july seventh nineteen seventy one shoe w phone jr to john mitchell and german like to have this enter dozens of the market do

you know jeb magruder as uprising of your request to have an accounting a two thousand dollars in solomon's office requested be made available to run water the breakdown and closes intentionally statute says he preferred not to list names the recipient of the jailer activities unless we insist as he fills this is a highly sensitive subject and one should not be committed to writing you will note there's a cash thousand and nine hundred dollars and the original two thousand and five following a safe until needed this of course raises the question of whether we should retreat to someone in the future makes britain's only on a case by case basis rather than make available on some allocation to the discretionary use for years now paul and i wonder if you could

give this committee information exactly you know as to what has been referred to here in the way of yeah these activities words as a breakdown goes and totally sketchy uses he preferred novelist named the recipient of detail activities unless we insist you can be in information that yemen may i say so there's no question about it demonstrations

and i was wondering whether or not the matter to discuss interest loans letter related events might work work and whether or not there might be certain activities in the course of that audience were not discussed the richer sounds that's what make that we could do that the person who is that inmates to a senate matter of those committees think about it mm hmm and the money is the money mr smigel

right now on humanism is to what activities who were being discussed or recipients are being discussed here i know i can't accept to say that ron walker was the chief advance man who was responsible for the advance work for the president's trips foreign minister and including campaign trips and that is activity on the part of mr walker or our members is that related to campaign activities as contrast to government and whenever there was an activity a trip or for any use of advancement for campaign rather than the official purposes they their expenses are taken care of it

and re election well i'm going to be ashamed wait i don't know anything you win if you don't have the money to be made available it would not in any way had anything to do with paid demonstrators is something that you ever came across that in the course of those or a demonstration that's right now

specifically as maria paz by six but yeah so why so

no responsibility for i was no i was not so that has been discussed here is what happened and i feel a sense that you are responsible in those areas because i was not and while the noses and then it was against this question and i tried to find out her rivals solicit from you a state minister who was responsible for these persons of integrity which were that you lived through them when i first came to the white house have informants and their present state of affairs and then this was nineteen seventy

ray monitoring system now let me point out any point out that the system that without reading the entire marine and this is entirely i would consider legal and proper money laundering nothing wrong nothing nothing in front of those who disapprove com statement is made in your handwriting which i wondered could invest is fraught everything that we've heard before those who disapprove and commentary and it is approved whatever will work and i'm concerned with was also they're not met

with an agent don't you feel that might not have been the psychology that led to the excesses which we describe as committee chairman no now you're here talking about what might be related to the senate and i think that they get out of the understood this is along memorandum about to me in january of nineteen seventy eight which was a time when the owner was on the white house staff but working in mines officers director deputy director of communications for the executive branch and it's

the subject of monitoring system at the memorandum says recently you've had a number that recently you've had a number of comments regarding the effectiveness of our monitoring system i've indicated you that the system is not at this point in time working effectively in that i can find jobs rather than wait until i move i thought it might be better just before you ever thought it might be better to give you my thoughts on why it is not operated effectively and what options we have to solve as well as a system is set up now we have a number of people here and in the rnc the republican national committee who were supposed to monitor the media at his monitor what is reported in the media these individuals are calling because they're spread out an innocuous situation relatively little information flows episodes of monitoring and in local areas of media coverage in those local areas this was true during that period of time and it

continues to beat or my feeling is that this problem he says because it has spelled out and has not become a priority situation through hoops in the white house were basically set up to do this type of work and i would be more effective you can only summarizes the reports from the sources in his commentary he basically monitors than at the time that it seems to me to be asked to do an official monitoring report as you summarize each of the media this couldn't be used for immediate action by the communications department the advantage of this is that the monitor has no relation with the press will get us an unbiased opinion as to what is that and with a median second job as a communications department so they basically review the news and i watching the same media on a regular basis this group that indicate the coverage by the media and then initiate our action the problem with this approach is that the communications department because it relates directly with the press has a tendency to want to get along with them rather than initiate interaction although it is true that i would be there and that would force the situation might not be as

successful as it would be if the report came over from buchanan and periodic moments and so on from people like yourself it is my personal opinion that the communications department would then do a better job of counteracting what has been reported is that memorandum which i was asked to approve or disapprove and which i did not approve or disapprove them put a question mark because i didn't understand what whether we live here we work any better than what was happening or not and i explained my question that is in terms of this memorandum and i submit that it's in terms of this memorandum and should not be extrapolated to cover a statement or authorization on the authorization of anything other than the matter's covered in this memorandum no question was somebody at the company

the criminals don't you think that the method is very very important constitutional sense don't you think it's very important as to how iranians all in some cases that that is extremely important in this particular case that this passes the more the procedure by which he did this was this to be not important what was important is that they set up some kind of a procedure that would get results what i'm saying here in effect is you figured out the math and you're responsible to me for the results in this matter its importance to the methods that we use in so far as the election because the united states is concerned well i'm sorry senator that is important in so far as the method we use to elect a president knows

that was a major important i certainly do you think we ought to let residents on the basis of watergate type activities you think that we are alike presidents on the basis of being up all personal political dirt week in unemployment it puts it into the terminology makes it sound that i would say that it's very important to know the facts about an opponent in a political campaign whatever they may be thank you demonstrations intentionally

expose the president to dangerous situations that it's important that we protect them and everywhere around to go ahead and actually untrue violence in the city this is going to be or tripoli painstaking detail activities designed to bring about the result that said the chairman is just right which was that there were in fact no violent demonstrators or does everybody matters or any other problem so as you can see and i got into a question that germany has indicated the result of a sense of a lawsuit as to whether people have been illegally excluded from that meeting exclusion process was an effort to attempt

to avoid that kind of confrontation that we did not want but we're not sure because richard nixon was elected president as one not that that's not why the committee says this committee says that the prisoners also present methods of vision again that's right and then

that's it and he made it and retirement mrs which is race previously

mr chairman was the rubble of her that i've had my agent said mr stroman insisted that history i had submitted to them was the problem of turning the funds remain university over to the committee to realize was my problem that's right it has to be used for now

and you utilities mr jama but before he moved to the situation that i did not consent that they be used for that purpose i did it i was aware of the need to be required to meet the committee for funds i was aware of my request <unk> john that the files i had i've had in my custody in his custody be turned over to the committee for that

would be that for a long time oh wow now he's requested and as curtis says to sum up after my

original instruction just not to transfer the money to the committee and the transfer of funds was entirely through john the economy of the problem and transferring to three hundred and fifty thousand to the committee he told me he worked out well he kills time i went into the room to make a transfer he told me the transfer of the night he did not at any time in that sequence of bison meat or imply that the transfer a cell where the purpose of the transfer was to buy one of the defendants saddam's or that it was in any way anyway he did that's

right do you the money thank you the ad the good lines probably you've got a couple so that is the purpose to pay for what you're

welcome you're right oh really mm hmm you're welcome that was

the material nineteen sixty or political activities well no yeah yeah with israel and hezbollah seven

i don't know in nineteen sixty eight any reforms after the sixty eight and has to be that law made it to the to the law thank you

my question all right fb the