The American Scene; The Influence of Germany

Good morning. The American scene is greatly influenced by its relationship with other countries, and many things are dependent on what other countries in the world do, and there is a great influence on the United States. Today we want to talk about the influence of Germany, what it does to the United States, what the United States does to Germany. And our guest this morning is exceptionally well qualified to talk about it. Prince Hubertus Toulouvenstein, who is a former member of the German Parliament, he's an historian, a lecturer, a former Carnegie professor to the United States, and he has just finished a book, The Defense of the West, with an introduction by Chancellor Adnauer, and this book will be out in a few months. Prince Hubertus Toulouvenstein, welcome this morning. Well, it's a great pleasure to be with you, Tom. Thank you. Perhaps we can begin with a little bit of your background. You were a former member of the German Parliament. When was this? Between 53 and 57. I served on a health -prior relations committee, so I'd quite a bit to American

German relations as well. And you are a lecturer, you lectured in the United States. I've been lecturing for good many years, I spent almost 12 years in America, I feel absolutely at home in your country. Were you in Germany during the Second World War? No, I was in America. See, I left Germany shortly after Hitler had come to power, and I came to America in 35, which is, by the way, all the time of my first visit to Chicago, and then you went back to Germany after the war. I went back in 46, yes. Recently, there has been an unfortunate rash of new incidents all over the world, actually, very similar to the Nazi movement in the 20s. How would you explain this? How did this start? I've been deeply shocked, and so everyone has, our government, our president, our chancellor, all the political parties, they all considered it a moral shock of the first magnitude, and we considered it really a public

disgrace to the name of our country. It started in Christmas night, in Holy night, when two hoodlums spent at the swastik castle walls of a synagogue in Calon, which just recently had been opened by Chancellor Ardenauer. He was there when it was consecrated, and we felt it was at that time, again to Jewish people and at the same time, of course, against Christianity, anti -Semitism, all this anti -Christian, and against our government itself. How widespread is this? Is it through Germany? Well, there have been about 93 cases of such hoodlums, and therefore, all been brought to trial, and very severe punishment has been made out of them. In Calon, hoodlums, actually, who are they? There are young people from juvenile delinquents, some moronic types among them, metalheaded, youngsters, who may be in certain cases, have even been used by forces behind them. We didn't even know what it was. You're saying in certain cases, you don't believe that this is a directed attack

or movement? Well, Dan, I'm not so sure who's standing behind it, you know. I'm not trying to make any excuses, my god, you know, how strongly I feel about it, but I could ask the question, who alone, which country alone, which power alone, could profit from such acts? I would certainly be the Soviet Union. So you feel that this is directed by the Soviet Union? Well, let me put it very carefully. I would say certain elements, criminal elements, hoodlums, juvenile delinquents are possibly being used by such forces, whose intention, of course, it is to discredit the German parallel government, and thereby weaken the power of NATO directly against the Western Alliance, because if ever Germany lost its good name, which we have been building up over the last years, it would just be in the end of NATO. How would go into that a little more deeply? Why would NATO be suffering somewhere? I tell you, Donna, it's comparatively easy. After Hitler's fall, all of us have made very strenuous effort to build up a democratic

journey, and in a certain way, I may say, probably in all modesty, we have succeeded. We have built up a democratic constitution, full respect for the rights of Ben, religious liberties, no racial discrimination, and a parliamentary form of government. And that new Germany, after Hitler's fall, has won the confidence of the United States of Great Britain and of France. And it has been taken into the confidence of the Great Western powers. And if that name should ever be lost, if Soviet agents ever succeeded in destroying the good democratic reputation, it would just mean that we would lose the confidence of your people, of Great Britain, of France, and would just throw back Europe to the days before NATO ever came in, which is based on that moral principle of a common heritage, a heritage of freedom, which we all want to defend. How does Germany fit into NATO with its armed forces? To German armed forces, well, as soon as a German division becomes combat -ready, it's at once a sign to NATO. So

Germany, in a way, is the only major power which has no national army. All other NATO powers have certain divisions, a number of divisions are signed to NATO and they keep the rest outside. There are no German divisions at the proper sense, but every German division is a NATO division, which means it's placed at once on the international command, now for Europe centre, it's a French general, general value, whom I know very well, it's a great man, a great leader, and also men, outstanding personality, and he, in turn, reports to general North -State, the supreme command of all allied forces Europe. Are all German divisions stationed in Germany, or are they in other parts of Europe as well? And the all -station in Germany, at present time, seven divisions are combat -ready, and seven, which means have been a sign to NATO. And they are all in Germany. They are all in Germany. Two German girls are in southern Germany, and by the way, they are under the direct command to command the chief of the American seventh army. Now, getting back to this rash of swastik painting, it

has been reported that, if not all, at least some of the people involved are a member of a particular political party in Germany, is that true? Now, there's a small white radical party, which is called to Reich's party, a radical group, as I said, using extreme nationalistic slogans, and they have been drumming up their well, whatever they wanted to drum up in the last few months and years, but they had never received any significant number of votes. They never got more than 2 percent, all popular votes, which in itself is an indication of the party quite insignificant. But these people have been… Yes, quite a few have been associated with them, and I don't know, it's interesting how to left the right radicals always work together. Before Hitler came to power, the Communist Party in Germany actually helped Hitler to come to power, because they wanted him to smash German democracy, so that they could step in someday. And now, I have close affiliations between that small group of right radicals, called Reich's party,

and the Communist forces. How extensive is there a Communist party in Germany? There's no Communist party in Western Germany, and the federal republic, because our constitutional court has declared a Communist party incompatible through democratic constitution, just as a predecessor of that party I mentioned, now, although right radical party has been dissolved as incompatible through our form of government, our democratic institutions. But there is a Communist party in West Berlin, and that's quite interesting, you know, in December 58, the citywide election was held in West Berlin, after all it's a city of 2 million to 100 ,000 people, for the city council, and the Communist party had fullest liberty of action, and they had automatic money, and the world more money, and all of that party's combined, and they pulled exactly 1 .9 percent. In spite of all the radio stations around, all the cabins, control

radio stations, all the threats, cross -strets, altimeter, which had just come out, but people just don't want it. You mentioned the conditions that brought Hitler and the power, how would you compare what is happening today with the 20s, with the situation that existed then? It's a very important difference, you see, now, you will strange world sort of business work, democracy is a going concern in Germany, the federal republic after all had to work its way up from scratch, you know, there's nothing there, Hitler left Germany in ruins, everyone who's been to Germany, know how it looked in 45, and even a greatest optimist failed it would take at least 50 years to build Germany up, but due to the democratic form of government and due to liberty of the people, if they enjoy it and which they worked, it was possible to come to that economically covering. So the democracy, for maybe point of view, has a good name to name Germany. It's not a feel -gated and associated domain for the people, with inflation and misery to wage wars, unfortunately,

after the last war, but there's a big difference, and something else is important to point out, you know, in the 20s when the Nazis came in, or when you first heard about them, there was also a small group, very good. And many people in America have been asking me, well, don't you think a small group today could be compared to the small group in the 20s and just remember what happened within a few years? No, there's a difference, in the 20s when the Nazis, you, they would attract followers, they would attract attention, they painted their swastikas and their 30 anti -semitic slogans or the world of the houses in dry daylight. Now, they have to sneak around like thieves who don't know it and do it, other cover of darkness, because they know that people would not be business. So you don't feel that the Nazi party or Nazi sympathy has been latent in Germany since the war and is now growing again. Of course, there are certain Nazis,

there are certain incurable juveniles as to work times put in the other day, unfortunately everywhere, but I don't think they have any real inputs. Of course, we've got to watch them. I would not advise to be careless and in a way, you know, this horrible thing of crimes which I should call them, that one good, one very important result, they have made to people aware of Nazism. And the reaction of the German people was unanimous and spontaneous against that poison. You know, it was almost like a poisonous vaccination, which brings to the fore all the good forces or the anti -parties, completely, the organism. So all our political parties, the government and all the state parliaments, they are 12 regardless of party affiliation, trade unions, the churches, and what I can see is especially important to young people, that come out spontaneously against any act of anti -Semitism or of neo

-Nazism. Is this the only similarity between the Nazi movement earlier, these acts of anti -Semitism? Well, anti -Semitism is almost the most striking element of such a movement, it starts with anti -Semitism and it ends up with the destruction of the rights of men, regardless of religious affiliations. It's always the fair thing you can notice. And we know today, especially since, but creates color, frequent fright, quote about it, that anti -Semitism is always antichristianism. Have there been direct attacks in Germany against other churches or other groups? Yes, the Catholic churches have been the face of swastika during the same period. Yes, exactly. Very significant. Now the total number of these hoodlums was 93, 93 people. As I said, they have been very severely punished and not in a single instance with a suspended sentence. They have to serve their term, which is good. It's also been reported that there are some former Nazis

in the present German government, in Chancellor Adonauer's cabinet, even. Is this true? Well, make me, if you're worried about a chancellor after all this well -doted America, you think the chancellor who has splendid anti -Nazi record and who has arrested a Nazis and just barely escaped to this life, that he would tolerate any real Nazi surroundings, not more than you and I. Of course, there have been lots of people in Germany who were forced to do the Nazi party. You know how it is on a totally day in regime? I wouldn't call anyone, it's Soviet occupied Germany or in Czechoslovakia, Poland or Russia, a communist because he was forced to do party. But there's no Nazi, it's a criminal sense, in any post of the administration. And those Nazis who have been found out as late as last year or this year are being tried. What has the government been doing since this rash of neo

-Naziism? When it started out, unanimous resolution by a German parliament, the men who presented the resolution with a social democrat, an excellent man, Carlos Schmidt, vice president for Bundestag, so not the member of the government coalition, and all the parties joined in in unanimous condemnation of the Nazis. Then we are stepping up again our educational program, which I consider very important. It has started already two years ago when we began to show some Nazi pictures, motion pictures, showing the horrors of Nazism to our young people. I was present at many performances, although universities of modern Munich, showing to the young, to documentary evidence of the Nazily steeds, and I think it's a good program. And shortly after, it was outbreaks of anti -Semitism, a whole group of young German boys and girls was invited to Israel, and they have left now, or they are about to leave, and they are going to work in Israel on the basis of

friendship and comradeship with young Israeli. They are going to the whole country, they have seen a Jew in their life, you know, after or they are only due to Hitler's crimes, only about 30 ,000 Jews left in Germany. And so it's extremely important that you should see Israel in action on how that country works, and they will come back as ambassadors of good will. Speaking about the education in Germany today, I think recently a Frankfurt television station did a program in which they questioned young people in Germany today about the Nazi era and period, and got answers to the question who was Hitler, such as he was the man who built our auto bonds and so forth. Is this about the knowledge that the young people in Germany have today about the Nazi period? Well, without wanting to criticize our television program or newspapers, I think it's a good news stunt, which they made, but very

strange things came out, which are quite shameful for a country like Germany, which has always been primary education. Boy was asked who is ruling now in Eastern Germany and he replied this mark. Yes, kids, drivers didn't know what they were talking about, but no one, no boy or girl in the census would ever give such an answer. You see, my own children went to school in Germany, and so I get first hand for both all of them. Well, how extensive, how deeply do they go into the Nazi movement in education today in Germany? Well, I don't want to engage in any sales talk from my own books, but I'm not going to mention the title of it, but I can give you just one example. I wrote a book of German history myself, which first came out in America, and that book has gone through many large editions and is being read in most German schools, and you can really bet you would, I say, about Nazism, give you the details, and it's not just my book, but there are very many books, of

course, dealing with the method. But now due to these incidents or those crimes, more will be done, and I've already failed off doing even more. I imagine, surely as time goes on, there's more and more that has to be taught particularly about history, and it would be awfully easy just to kind of gloss over that period in a history course. Is this true? Well, of course, what danger always exists, especially to grownups, you know, whose young men or women ever followed Hitlerism, they are ashamed today, ashamed that they ever did it, and there might be a certain tendency of not putting too much emphasis on it, but not for Nazi reasons, but just for the opposite, because they somehow they can't justify it anymore, talking to the young that they ever failed for such a bad luck Hitler. And it's interesting that the people who have been defacing synagogues and churches in Germany are very young, and weren't even born under the Nazi era, were they? No, they were very young, they just saw

very end of Nazism, which means they cannot be indoctrinated by Nazi education, and they've probably picked up slogans from that radical party. Or, as I point out, they may have been misused by agents whose real purposes they didn't even know. Could it also be possible that there is maybe not sizeable, but a portion of the German adult population who still have Nazi tendencies and pass it on to these younger people? There may be still a few incurable fools, but gain how anyone in this census, even if he was a Nazi, well, you can still believe that Hitler did any good to Germany, when he turned it into ruins, and made a German name hated throughout a civilized world, I don't think it can be any significant number of such people. Would it be possible to still believe in the philosophy of Naziism and still

be disillusioned with the way Hitler handled it? Well, I never saw any philosophy in Nazism, it was always a greed of what I called categoric cynicism and making promises right and left. Of course, those who were Nazi, many of them who were Nazi, must have been a terrific shock when he saw the end of it, but I feel and I have evidence for it, after all I've been in Germany and all again for so many years, that they have realized that democracy, the decent form of government, has restored to good name of Germany, which had been destroyed by Hitlerism, and everyone who loves this country must by necessity be anti Nazi. Let's get into the reaction that this is caused in the United States, so shortly after it happened in Germany we had a rash of the same kind of situations over here. Is this directly influenced by what happened in Germany?

That's very difficult to decide, it may be a sort of chain reaction. Of course, there's something else in it, and that tremendous publicity given to these acts may promote more of them. Any young boy or any hoodlomer would ever want to call them, who paints all of his dirty slogans on the house wall, may have the satisfaction to see his name and cling to above, around the globe. So in a way, just to publicity, we have been giving to these acts, which we had to do, because we are kindling more of them. You don't believe that there may be a worldwide organization or direction for these things? Well, if there is a worldwide organization, then I would feel it's Soviet run, because they are the only ones who have agents in all countries of the world and have enough money and a very good organization to use that money for their purposes. You say if, is there any evidence at all that it might be? I want to be very

careful this matter, but we do know that some of these people who have been caught and brought to trial have had connections to Soviet zone of occupation and have been in East Berlin. And we also know, this has been published weeks before the Swastika business started, but that tens of thousands of Soviet agents are invested in Germany, and they are very active. You know what, of course, for the last eight years, that figure was released a few weeks before the colon crime, over 16 ,000 Soviet agents have been arrested in a federal public. There was sort of general staff of revolution in East Berlin, and they are spending very large sums of money. Of course, it's right for the easy to get people to pay Swastika's. So, you don't feel really that what happened in America was guided or ordered by forces in Germany or forces somewhere in the world, it's just an outgrowth of the publicity. I think it is, of course, I have not qualified to

answer any question connected to your, particularly American problems, although I've been over just now for a week, but I would feel this is more or less your chain reaction among juveniles and may be certain, very sinister forces up behind it. What would you say that this indicates that something like this even could happen? Seems to be a drastic lack of education somewhere, a lack of understanding about what this really means. Yes, and I think we need more international exchange, and people should get to know each other, who counteract it. I'd like to see the exchange program on a far wider level than we have it so far, especially to young people, they should meet each other, to become friends, and there is not going to be any racial discrimination anymore. I don't

believe you know that racial feelings are rooted in the nature of men, after all, God has created mankind as a unit. What is the German government or the courts in Germany been doing to these people that they have quite? Very stiff sentences. One of the colon hoodlums got 14 months in jail, and the other one, I remember correctly, 11 months. I know to spend a sentence, they have to serve time. Do you know what the situation has been in other parts of the world, in other countries? No, I wouldn't know, I've just studied the German situation, and in every single case the punishment has been very stiff. No leniency shown, and the shouldn't think that it can get away lightly. Where are the travels when you were over here when, in the first time, in the 30s, weren't you here in the 70s? In the 35, who does 25 years ago, it's by Silvajubili. How would you describe America's attitude toward

Germany? Has there been a change, of course, during the war period there was, but is it stronger now than ever before, would you say? Are we more friendly today? Yeah, American attitudes has always been wonderful, well, and mostly encouraging, well, even during the darkest days of Hitlerism, the American people understood the basic difference between Nazis and Germans. And whenever I came to your country, I was an exiled at that time, I was expatriated by Hitler, I had a price on my head, the American public understood that basic difference, and it was America which really encouraged the forces of German democracy to rebuild Germany after the war, and without American aid, we could never have done it, and I'm very grateful for this opportunity to express my thanks, although in the name of all the Germans, who might have talked, and of course, it will last few years since NATO came in. The attitude of America has become more friendly still because now, thank God,

we are allies, and I've always been interested in this relationship between America, which is after all the native country of two of my children, and Germany after its liberation from Hitlerism. And that friendship, we've got to maintain for the benefit of our common heritage. How would you evaluate the effects of these recent things? Has it tended to weaken our relationship in any way? There has certainly been a great danger to that effect, especially as the moral position of Germany, was impaired, but I have to feel just the last few days or last week that this danger has been overcome the American people, realizes once more that the acts of 93 juvenile delinquents should not be held against a nation of 51 million, which has shown its real desire to build up the democracy. Has this been true with the other countries in the world, too? It has been no negative feeling at all in

France, not in Italy. I have been in Greece, I've been in Turkey, recently, just before coming over. Of course, questions were asked, especially as in Greece, for the remember, very well, of Nazi steeds in that country, but there again it has been overcome, and public opinion is not taking a clearer, more realistic view, which is extremely important, and there has been no change in Germany's status or standing in NATO. No, no, no, no, and the armed forces have not been affected by it. Thank God, and what we've got to do, which I consider very important, not just for the German point of view, for the point of view of the West, to give encouragement, model encouragement, but that vast majority of the German people, after all, just as horrified and disgusted for what happened, as you whitely were. We mustn't give them to feeling that they are being written off, because then we are really doing, playing the game of those

people who want to destroy the West. Do you feel that this is something that has almost run its course now, and that there's a little danger left in this movement? I hope so, but of course, there's a summit conference coming now, and we don't know what tricks Khrushchev may be up before that summit conference starts. You feel that there might be pressure applied until a conference? A few more, a few more such acts, and maybe more attempt to sabotage Western unity, but I don't think they will succeed. Well, thank you very much, Prince Hubertus to Levenstein, a former member of the German Parliament, an historian, a lecturer, and currently on a lecture tour in the United States. It was a most interesting talk this morning, and thank you very much. This is Diane Anderson saying, good morning for the American scene.