The Robert MacNeil Report; Sludge

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we can good evening i'm jim lehrer in washington robert is away tonight sewage sludge and other debris from our opponents as it washed up on the beaches of long island near new york city last week some seventy miles of atlantic coast beaches were closed for cleanup another new york area beach closed tuesday and was afforded for the july weekend approaching americans elsewhere look at their own beaches river france unlike areas and understandably wondered if and when the same thing was going to happen to them because it's not an isolated from cities and towns everywhere are confronted

with a growing problem on how to dispose of their story and it's triggered by products one way is to dump little runoff into emotion rather body of water others are buried under landfills burn it or recycle it as fertilizer philadelphia like new york don't some in the atlantic los angeles and that slows to a seven mile pipe into the pacific ocean seattle cuts it's up in the mountains for use in a university sponsored reforest the experiment detroit and center rates in chicago uses its for land reclamation and fertilizer out in the only country side each of these methods has its own set of controversies nationally the environmental protection agency and other federal agencies as well as the congress or involve local governments and funding and examining these methods of sewage sludge disposal the senate passed a solid waste bill yesterday amador house hearings on comparable legislation tuesday and wednesday others on sludge researcher coming up sop all tonight we explore the many ramifications of sewage sludge disposal from several different points of view

began with that of the angry citizens his name is george ratterman was lived on fire island new york for twenty two years the thirty mile long beach of fire island was one of those affected last week mr behrman is the president of a file association a coalition of community organizations and he was there the other day when the sewage and sludge and their visit how bad was it mr behrman well it was pretty disgusting for openers and describe it for us if you can well there was virtually every kind of human waste that one could possibly imagine including some of our less than the viral artifacts searchers tampon and servers and alluring disposable diapers all sorts of buzz and human feces in various states of the competition for one of the world's most beautiful beaches that with the critique of the things like the thing

as you know you know the argument over what caused it and who or what maybe to maybe to applying for all was still going on is this argument solving anything in your opinion not at all to begin with for many many years we've known that none of our waterways including the atlantic ocean should be used as a sewage disposal site it's absolute madness do sell and the agencies that have been trying to cope with that have been vastly underfunded we can spend billions on the b one bomber but ronald laroche awful philip are all of our waterways both the ocean and there are rivers and lakes are being followed by the staff and ultimately it's going to affect the lifestyle of everyone in the country what's the condition of your beach now well most most of the stuff is officially declared to be pretty well got

i don't believe that for one minute what's happening most of that is that it's still in the water may have been dispersed a great deal of it is in the sand where it was covered by wins after the first two and innovation some of it was covered by wendell than the rest of the so that was grounded in philly stand by the big bodies that are worse the area between of all high tide and some of it is done back in to the ocean to return on this again another factor in short you thank you temporarily prevented all you think it's gonna come by well i think it's a very very scary situation carter thank you a lot that first started america thinking about sewage and sludge disposal was the water pollution control act of nineteen seventy two it is administered by the environmental protection agency epa deputy assistant administrator for water program operations as junkies red there's direct how to

use the epa's responsibility in this whole area of sewage and sludge disposal if you respond first to your responsibility as into <unk> betterment situation but i'm more interested in the total situation well i think we might kick off with us for our betterment situation i see it i'm inclined to agree with and nobody wants arab beaches fall it and the practice of ocean dumping which was the thirty part of the problem and fire island is a problem that we're facing in trying to eliminate over a proper economic theory that time in the new york area in fact all across the country we should be able to phase out by about nineteen eighty one is out is that your goal and that so that is basically our goal in the few places that are put in sludge into the ocean one of those new york one of them

is a philadelphia area of austin la it is going out through a now fallen also in los angeles all of these are in the process of being phased out what the problem is you have ever properly environmentally acceptable plus solution beside an economic one and i think maybe later in the program today we're we'll discuss in more detail some of the age of almost every one of the solutions to this sludge problem has environmental and economic drawback well which one is the best solution there are several that i mentioned at the top they say don't think there's some pretty well that's why you're going to phase them out of the other one of course is burning or incineration the owners putting in landfills and eleven courses recycling nutrients fertilizer howard is epa quote you recommend at this point of course the best solution is recycling for fertilizer way they're just no doubt about it they have

something i like sludge and not to be able to use fully utilize i think that they're just sucking on them or never done by the area i hate what is known as easy as this are we have a processed sludge to make sure this like this point so that we do not get heavy metals up takes in plants and end of the food chain or end up making land star now and i think one of the ones you suggested and it is also an ex friendly good solution which in chicago where they're taking land down to southern illinois fulton county's mine land and completely reclaiming what a better way environmentally and economically detective devastated what we're trying to get relevant to have it come back to life realistically though we're still going to be confronted with dumping and water vapor while easton nineteen eighty one do you really believe that you're going to be

able to stop all in nineteen eighty one i think guy it is a hopeful our goal and i believe we can hit it it it requires a money requires a serious dedication by everybody and it's going to be more expensive particularly in areas like new york and the northeast where land is so bare and to get it to some other places so far from where we want to pursue all that with him almost like you're march one lying is an engineer by profession and a career civil servant who has spent more than twenty years from the water pollution and sewage treatment for new york city it was the city's commissioner of water resources from nineteen seventy one to seventy four more recently he served the city as acting commissioner sanitation and he is currently the new york city's new york city's commissioner of parks mr lang when you see the major problem in resolving the sludge disposal problem from your vast experience well first of all i can understand what makes <unk> the bottom end a bitter man denied

bail agreement that a major plus the war effort has to be the preserve our beautiful beaches and around new york city let's let's stay away the controversies that the facts the facts all one of them is not to do this as reflexively people tend to blame new york city for all the ills of mankind of like a garden didn't exist somewhat about that which evidently goes to a new york city at the beginning of the century a blot upon a mess the plant will buy water pollution control the very reason the city exists it's about this is because of its magnificent harbor they have for many years before there was any thought of federal action before anybody thought a cornucopia would open up in washington or albany the taxpayers of new york city you know dubbed the depression put their money where their convictions were to build the series of plants to treat waste water and it's about we made decisions decades ago to treat to a certain high degree a second every treatment

which the federal government only about that is the norm in nineteen seventy two most significantly new york city chose to do this one of his jaw just it's afterwards not into a portable watershed for reuse as riggan war like a main stem of the mississippi what are known as during salt water aquatic having done this we weren't content we already are treating over one billion gallons a day why a high degree of secondary treatment we already this affecting virtually only of the woods in the city we are already have on the current construction one billion dollars of current construction to our greatly enhance our has big plans so no yeah no problems at no no we didn't stop with that when i contend with that that we did some other things while we sort of change the biggest wave united states under section two away the public were ninety to five hundred to create a rational basis for future treatment including sludge disposal including creating a mathematical model of awkward adjacent waters to make

rational decisions rather of the show because our objective was always to create a new and better bathing beaches and around new york city we address the cells become a combined sewer overflows we've already built the first prototype orgy we plant and offshore jamaica bay this week we went to cope with the fact that of the six thousand miles or so was a liar sciences is very actually bought by winning again not about a quick opinion from user on what is the best light to dispose of sludge was pumped up in point new york city joined hands with the adjacent areas before a regional sports management committee it's going right now is funded by the federal government that was leaves war or alternatives ocean disposal there when the second phase of that study now finds are fine thank you very much back here in washington now you know one of the

major i'm going to try this again one of the two major sewage treatment plants and one was talking about which aren't under construction in new york city now one is in the brooklyn waterfront district of democratic congressman frederick richmond as a member of an outlier culture committee congressman rich miller sponsoring legislation a big recycling waste materials and saul fertilization is recycling sludge into fertilizer the ultimate answer in your opinion how to reward really wanna do is larger than end up realizing that slide has won the most valuable products that we can create and that ought to be put back on the land your groom is direct downloads an asset rather than wait for swat is a great at ok watch what's what's only about well we americans suttles well we're above the bicentennial with two hundred years ago we came to this country the topsoil in the united states average thirty six inches today's top so he averages six inches so much of topsoil and a good winter probably

blown away right in this sludge is one of the finest product to rebuild our top so slut is already fertilized with sludge was one becomes compost i have someone hears a live show you look at this as an example of sludge from eritrea sludge which was created at the beltsville research development set up of the us funded by my friend joe right after seven weeks of treating the sludge one really mixing it with wood chips and harriet you end up with compost which is what the finest product it wasn't real and now i don't think that it will sludge or world crumbles of all this action from the ocean or cars or how you know that this particular accomplish his particular slogan is free of toxic chemicals free at all metallica in substance was like say in detroit detroit had to burn it because they said it was too there's sludge with two points

nationally and you know they created a health actually right now this sludge comes from the suburban areas around beltsville except at only fifty dollars a day or low now that locals order out of there was not built so as you know was not highly industrialized all residential and turns out that this sewage is quite free of trace metals never this crowd was right you would be excellent on anybody's farmland but everybody's everybody's sludge isn't that would not work that well right now the case in new york city we create five thousand tons of soldiers sludge each day in the five thousand tons three thousand tons could easily be composted we know for a fact are scientists at the us run their culture and also tell us for a fact that there are very very few trace metals in that and three thousand tons of sludge day we're fifteen are treatment plants in the new york city it of them are quite free trade levels with a residential this of course is the most expensive

possible method to go in terms of use know it was worth it omar you got it is all on good for you to say this is on all the other slugs it would come out will have to be examined and shaq for all this help part of it's hell possibilities in the decontamination process of other slugs also something very very expensive or you can say it's fifty five percent of all sludge is usable amazon has almost eight i'm almost no trace metals that the divides of all celeste by proposing restarting that sludge and factoring into compost and start using on our land where we so desperately needed godwin fertilize dresses was obviously require a lot more research development and that's why i have that they do so gracie mansion in congress are to thank you a blakeman areas a registered lobbyist with environmental action international citizens lobbying organization would says quote america is on the verge of a sludge crisis well crisis is out how much is going to be generated

over the next two years one of the things that we're talking about and it assures sewage sludge that's been flooded thing jerry waste water treatment facilities but one has to realize that the sludge is going to be competing for his full capacity with regular sought ways to the extent that its landfill with the slightest thing jerry by air pollution control facilities and also with a great deal of industrial hazardous sludge my organization is very concerned about what is going to happen to all the sludge the over the past few years congress's for the figure of the warrior project the oceans generally allowed it is the end product of pollution control authorities what's going to be done with it and we're working very much on legislation to ensure that the land is probably protected regardless of whether it's being recycled which was supported very strongly do

you think that the ultimate solution very much so if we can solve some of the problems the major problems for major problems are right now our mostly arid having als is the center's lead cadmium mercury also some sources contain high amounts of peace tvs and some clothes can contain pathogens over the country being processed and thoughtful generally eliminate pathogens has its own our mom were a concern that to the extent that these letters that contain heavy metals are used for our cultural purposes but they're running into the human food chain in fact we're going to be poisoning ourselves well we're trying to clean up the waters i would assume that the environmental us would automatically oppose the burning of sludge is a correct because of the iroquois a much loved prefer and dumping only in any kind of water

now the landfill about the landfill finally of questions about that as a muppet well it certainly is going to be after the war that's and utilized as i said though we're running out of space and anybody who's been familiar with the opening of a new land donors public reaction is associated with the creation of the landfill people talk about cleaning up the environment that would when it comes to doping result of that cleanup a place near them they don't have a clue mr abdullah me ask you as the federal government's position to push extensively and one when as much resources they have this basic approach the preferred the recycling approach of sludge i yes i but we have not murder ourselves to one approach as an example it may well be and some of the studies of mr lange was talking about the nih in new york are showing that

some of theirs they may want to use what's called parramore says which is a newborn at the budget wanted without option you do not get the air contamination in you generate the energy eight to maybe operate the plans that their experimental ones of these going on right now in fact new york today the new york area a is i get ready to take one of there and some writers in and uses principle it but i epa along with usda in fda at are looking very very heavily in that the composting agricultural land use guy this means that we've got to solve the toxic problem it if it has heavy metals and that guy we've got to ensure that it does not get the crops that cannot take an end to the human food chain and at the same time we have to push pre treatment to make sure that heavy metals are not

getting into it then we'll have a completely valuable composting resource i have been out there been a nasty this car's been out there been any places in the united states that have successfully come to grips with the removal of toxic substances and other harmful things from their sludge yes you can pre treat sludge with wood chips and we will remove every trace of littles no place to actually pre creature you slide right at factories have there been examples where this has worked and not successfully and you know do you know of any of this is working in chicago for example oh good i was a line he says that in a new york well yeah in new york city start of this in the early fifties the early sixties we started a huge industrial waste control program the first major the early coastal city in the country to do so initially now the pattern we will all and we won't we set limits on

toxic metals which are acceptable within the so it's now where few years on the public more money to five hundred the federal government is making this a nationwide policy which helps us or not right if you all which one will post talks about requirements some manufacturers' so you'll find refuge in new jersey connecticut thanks the effortless the rightness colleagues they'll be no place the hard edges yes we support a full blown program in new york city and it's actually serve as a model for the cities the growth roland where you can actually remove it from the sludge what is that is that what you're saying to keep from getting there in the first place will be you know somebody spotted level concentrations are rich western fractions of a pauper millions of factions will top a billion we'd have to drink enormous quantities of this lodge which is about story and all of that remove minute traces of miles of caution which was write this up at the just basic want to minimize about its source and

the other things we've done a loyal ally suggested air force new york city pioneered by justin a sludge sludge people talk about a sort of certain attitude by justin place this gray semi fluent which is easily contrasts of all so in about a dollar that we are not as much as a mall who tries to build lives in a converted into a black sorry stable forward which is ideal for creating a synthetic topsoil rob bryden the toxic metals could be kept out for what they are what has been your organization's experience in terms of checking on the least successful ability to use this kind of of the sludge and remove the metals and that sort of thing well right now the removal once it's anise is a very difficult process as most of processes are experimental stage and i'm not really economically feasible which really remains will the problems because you can imagine that you know the political

pressure that supplied too strong when one considers so much cheaper to opt for agricultural use for instance and let's not worry about the animals now because in terms of the total amount of food is being produced course all this brings us back to where we began on a lot of this is an experimental stages lot of it is there a lot of research going on is what we do in the short run to avoid problems that have an industry that i'm in the know and his colleagues in the ark in the new york area and elsewhere where we do i mean new york city is doing quite a bit but i am i guess if we want to come to the specific problem today in new york where i would just like to disagree with mr at new york city is being short funded their sewage treatment

plants are behind schedule because of the lack of federal funding we are simply not putting the amount of money that is required to handling a huge problem we had a marvelous example for a large demonstration this last week after over a week of deciding what to do about the falling of our beaches later the president decided to send one hundred job carmine to clean up seventy miles of beach we simply do not play the same time with pension problems of doing solid waste at all as we do to as i said earlier the b one bomber for example we have to re order our priority and i think almost optimistic discussion about technology is fine the technology exists the problem is getting it on

screen and getting it go i think we would do i agree on one point that we need to get the technology the technology is there we can move the problem can be solved it takes time though to work and struck a treatment plants to the three years there is not a shortage of federal money there is a shortage of local money guy and hopefully it but right now the plant's it had been under construction like the north river plant have continued right on construction in new york city we hope they got eighty percent of their the sewage treated now guy and hopefully by nineteen eighty the rest of it with the completion of the north river and read a book that will be authentic also by nineteen eighty one the slug why is it that optimistic mr lee generally that we're gonna solve the sludge crises that quickly and easily well both

mr bateman mr rehder discussing the problem of cleaning up the water still a talk about the building a sewage treatment plants are still not talking about what to do with the slot at these plants generate one of the promises the epa isn't are terrific pressure to get the sewage treatment plant feel that we feel at their sliding on what to do with storage once the festival so i welcome another still many other things to talk about a sludge and some of you come down as optimism done some of the economists pessimistic john an indie art thank you very much for being with is still here in washington and i'm jim lehrer now seeing them on a thankyou and he's eighteen the case became you're owner

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