Interview; H. Bentley Renwick; Part 2

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You Sure, this has been a total cause, okay? Thank you What we're really looking for is your reaction to some of the ideas and areas of the long-truth in the series and to life in the same generically in the character of Dr. And also any Suggestions you might have as the people who are places to visit during the summer as we were in the series We'll probably be spending most of the summer traveling through this day visiting the people We're kind of having a problem

Identifying people to say We're seeing a lot of So far mostly historians Associologists and political scientists and folk artists and not many people But I don't know how good an idea of We're going to make a good academic idea about the state's life But it's not necessarily a A very badly personal Some of the Emeritus of the long-truth in the programs and series And you may have some additions or corrections of these New York art music and religious beliefs, political beliefs, and food and work Play Myths and stories, language patterns, humor jokes and programs, family structures Did you shoot your own heroine in the role of a heroine in the birth and age? Does that make sense?

It really does Covered it quite extensively too After the knock on my life I've been in chapel here for 15 years And it's To some people it's quite surprising because most people have been around Chapel here that long I grew up in the western part of North Carolina Which on paper And a lot of things I relate to on paper is to what is actually happening in the state On paper the western part of North Carolina is supposedly Better structured, more livable, lies All in all, it's supposed to be the better part of the North Carolina I find that to be Very Untrue And in that I feel that Chapel Hill is probably the typical part of the state In that

Although I don't agree with the The theme of being the southern part of heaven I do think it is quite unique as far as North Carolina and the South Simply here I think primarily because of the nature of the population you have here The University causing most of this But I enjoy it And although I think there's a lot of rooms for improvement I can't think of a better place to live in North Carolina than Chapel Hill There are a lot of assumptions The first and freedom joke He didn't say you want to talk about jokes, that's probably the biggest joke of all right right now And the way that the politicians have tried to twist this around and make it logical and acceptable

I think the most black folks in particular It's more of a joke It's very unacceptable of course But we've seen a The majority we see no need in blocking out on the The lives of life I think most of the people in the state would agree that it is a joke But why bother with something that is unimportant is that, that's the way I view it These are some of the things I think that the state of North Carolina is going to have to deal with Because it's some of the soldiers of racism and injustices and prejudices That do crop up periodically You know, the state Oh, yeah

Definitely You still want that some people are some parts of it Oh yeah, definitely I mean, you know, Joe Wallace won the state and fall of the president's elections because you know, you don't forget that And although Governor Wallace has a reputation of being a gifted speaker You know, the way he can finagle the words around And I admire this, in fact, I respect it How? Of course, it's at least I know where he's coming from But I think that in the fact that Jesse Hamms is in Washington That you know that a lot of people are willing to just, I'd say, sacrifice the state In order to preserve and prolong what has been historically significant to them in the state And making sure that there is a distinct difference between the oppressor and the oppressed

And I don't know, this doesn't upset me because I think I feel that this will go on for a long time It's just that I think, the thing that disturbs me is that there are a lot of people that don't realize this is going on Because the South is going on the ground kind of reminiscent of what people said years ago about the North They don't come out, say, certain things But the underlying factors are still screaming, loud and clear that this is what we feel and this is what we mean And if you take the bolster of Mississippi, that's heaven upside, that's what I call it It gives you an idea that it's not only in the South, I don't think we should, you know, all the blame should be laid in the South

And a flat matter upside, because I refer to a person who is in part of the United States What's it like now in the North Carolina? You said childhood was different, how was childhood different? Well, it's different, primarily because of the income level of the white population here is much higher in most parts of the South I think the capital income is very high, simply because of the universe and the hospital of course I guess a good example would be housing, I don't know whether you ever thought about this or not But all over the state, 10 years ago when a black family would move in and put down on a white neighbor You'd hear about it in the newspaper television radio

I doubt if you have an all white neighborhood in Chapel Hill But there was not much of a fanfare, not any publicity at all when this particular type of event occurred I don't live in a predominantly white neighborhood myself, and quite pleased Not that I prefer to live in a predominantly white neighborhood, but the housing patterns in Chapel Hill was quite unique also And if you were looking for 10 years ago a house in the 30,000 range, you wouldn't be able to buy a house in a predominantly black neighborhood and then be able to resale I don't say five years from the day you bought it, consequently you had to go down the white neighborhoods in order to be able to resale a house And of course, you still have a few people that will kick, but it's not the same type of ordeal that friends of mine have experienced saying wrong

Or Greensboro, which is about how it's the same time that I did So it gives you an idea of the caliber of people you have in Chapel Hill is a good thing Do you want to check with the war on light? Well, one thing, I think you have enough voices that are screaming loud and clear that we do not want this type of situation to cut down on what's your octave of the voices that would like to say just the opposite I'm not saying that Chapel Hill is 100% pure, we're a long ways from that, but I think you have enough voices that are speaking out that will coil the masses And actually, it only takes a few to go either way really, so therefore you have a little different atmosphere, but I don't think that anyone can

You know, in all good conscience and faith say that no, we don't have the problems, which is an old cliché, you know, the problems are elsewhere, the problems in Chapel Hill But I dare say that very few communities would elect it, how it leads may So that itself shows you, well, one of the reasons why I like Chapel Hill, so it's really a matter of choosing the less of two of these is the reason why I still in Chapel Hill I'm from a town called Statesville North Carolina, which is located just about halfway between Charlotte and Winston-Salem, but it's the base of the mountains in the western part of the state I grew up there, my mother is there now, I grew up in a type situation where there was segregated schools, I finished high school in 1952

I really had very little contact with whites until I got into the army in the 1958, that's where we started Very closely with them now, understanding a lot, better than I did What do you understand about White South, which you didn't get? Well, first of all, I went into army in 1958 If I sat down, began conversing with a white soldier Once he established the fact that he was born a little below the Mason-Dixon line, that was the last conversation he had with me, because I was on the impression that everybody was born in the South was the racist Of course, that quickly changed over the two years that I was in the South because some of my friends were from the South, New Orleans, Florence, Alabama, so that changed

And you see that prejudice and racism is based a lot on assumptions, you know, people, you assume that you see one person do this, all of them do this, you know, on this type of thing And I went through this period, I guess my motto now is take everybody one of the time I have quite a few white friends, quite a few black friends, and I found that you can find some, I guess, a bad apple in both barrels So, this doesn't upset me if I find that I can't trust a white, that I can see it, at first it actually, I'm not going to shun all of this for one, but at the same time, I'm not giving them a blanket

Approved relief One of the people who talked to his childhood in North Carolina was his job to say water to the workers and the people And there was a hierarchy that he said the water was passed out, then the blacks were gone And I had to inquire that for him to do that, he said, I'm going to go water to the white versus the blacks class, and the reason I'm doing that is complete this And he couldn't, that's just the way it was And I don't understand that I don't understand the story of that kind of thing Well, first of all, you've got to understand the meaning of the oppressor and the meaning of the oppressed

We tend to think that the violence that originated by the oppressed is the initial phase of violence But this is not true, the violence really starts with the oppressor He has to act violent, not in a physical sense, but in the act of laws to suppress the oppressed, to me that's violence And you have to keep a certain type of superior, inferior level going so that everybody will know everybody's place Now of course the oppressor is going to take this superior role and the oppressor will be the inferior role So what he tries to do between the two, he tries to demonstrate even down to the definition of turn to what is to advertisement

He has to demonstrate how superior he is so that the inferior person will then aspire to be like this superior So that even if he happens to break the training being in a sense of the oppressed, once he breaks the chain, he becomes the oppressor So you see, you still, although you let a few in, allow few blacks into the realm of the white superior segment They in turn become oppressors also, so you really haven't broken the bond there, it's still there And what whites did and the reason why he had to serve whites for is in that field and serve blacks He had to perpetuate the notion that any white, no matter how low, what is better than any black

So he had to serve him first Now, I'm telling you something that I know that's happened through history, this is something I've never experienced I never worked on it, we never worked, I never worked on a farm Physically, I don't know what it is to be poor Millenium, it's psychological, that's a different thing, I think I'm very disadvantaged psychologically because I think all blacks are But physically, I've never gone hungry, I've never lived on a farm, I live right in a city with running water, with sidewalks, with paved streets And I could lie on my bed and hear the big rain at the local house too, I was then close to, although it was all black But it still does not take me out of the realm, in fact, that the poorest carbon residents that's white

That's making 4,000 miles a year right now, would come into this office and look upon me as inferior to him Right now, this doesn't change The laws have changed What has changed as a result of the laws? Well, what has changed is it's just like a Joan that was fighting a losing battle and he's bad for time You see, whether he'd come up with another solution, an idea to turn, to stem the tide, so to speak What you do is to retreat a little and you regroup So right now, they're retreating, and regrouping fast, that might aid also

Is that the wrong subject? Right, when you look at political ramifications of what's happening in the country today, he's a man that has proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that he has failed miserably In the health areas in the state of Alabama, in the area of education in the state of Alabama Taxes is probably more tied up out than any other area that you could mention It's been proven that the poor and the blacks are shoulder in the major burden of taxes in the state of Alabama People seem to forget that he stood in the door where the University of Alabama says, no, you can't Throw the blacks, no, you can't, you know this dude, I like to let your name off the ring loose

I think that was the first black student to try to enter the University of Alabama There were actually three students, two at another branch of the University He has managed to twist his around, and now he's on the law and all the key And this is another dynamic characteristic of the oppressor The only method they have of squash that type of reaction of that type of behavior is through law and all the taxes They have no conception of how to deal with these people on psychological, educational, and sociological plane They can't do this, because they've never had to But the one thing they do know is law and all, and it's best to send them in, and let's get rid of this right now

But the problem is still left Even on an educational level, administrators hear the University Still have not learned too many lessons of what happened in the 60 They're still making a decision about students, but exclude students They still don't know how to deal with the student on the same level and get down to the level with the student So you see, and this is ramped all through the American society Any capitalistic society has to suck on someone's blood There is no way they can survive

There's got to be the rich, there's got to be the middle end column, there's got to be the poor There's no other way you can survive in the capitalistic society, unless you have that type of arrangement They don't ask me what type of government should we establish, I can't answer that, I really can't I don't even put a broad way of what we do about that It's very hard to be on the top and look down at the bottom and say, I'm going to pull you up to my level It's very hard to do, I think it's a proven fact that the presser usually likes to remain where he is It's very easy to forget where you came from if you haven't lived in a public situation before you join the ranks of the presser

It's very easy to play various ethnic groups, one against the other I feel that the American Indian and the Black could really join together and do a terrific job in this country As long as the white man is able to tell the American you're a little better than the Black and be very hard to get together That's quite amazing also The presser has so many tools, so many advantages It's very easy for him to belong to the type of society we have

I don't see much of a change Who should be impressed? The capitalist system I'd say the highest in the long of the capitalist system, which just happens to be 999 and 10%, I mean white, I'm sorry, I wish it was I wish it was black and white And you know, when I society now, money talks, money is the thing The high-ranking officials are not about to reveal to the lower echelons exactly what type of salaries they're paying What type of benefits they have They do it in a solid type way through movies, maybe through newsreels

Well, the lower echelon is really dreaming, but I think if the masses ever begin to realize just how much is it I put a small piece of money here It could become quite uncomfortable, I'd like for it I don't understand how whites could consciously remain the aggressors so long I don't understand why whites could accept oppression, could remain the aggressors so long What kind of contact do you have in Blacks throughout the Western state now, and how do they feel about where they are?

Well, I think they feel that they've made some strides, positive strides that it I think that the ones that have received some type of education all the way out of the problems that we will encounter and the problems that confront us at this time You have different views, I think this is good, you have people like me that feel the best way to help work within the system I'm glad that everybody doesn't feel the way that I do I think you need a cross section in order to try to achieve certain goals on the recent next day But you need the Stokely Carmichael, the Rat Browns

Of course, you have some people on this campus that feel it out in that same category too It's just that they are totally unaware of what the Black man is all about He sees one, he feels it that he's this way, he sees another and he feels it that he's another way I've become quite confused in that they can't really challenge all Blacks into one personality box All they have to do is turn around and say, well, I don't channel all the whites into one personality box But you see, they can't come to grips with this, you see, they've been programmed to think that we are totally different They don't think it works in Blacks, they think people don't work in Blacks Right, that's right, that's the truth Isn't it funny that reflecting back on what I said about the housing situation

In travel here, we had no trouble, we had trouble in Raleigh and Greensburn and so forth Isn't it funny that you've never really heard about a Japanese having any trouble in Raleigh and Greensburn or a German having trouble in Raleigh and Greensburn or an Italian having trouble in Raleigh and Greensburn? No, they're not blind Isn't it kind of ironic that at the time of the first atomic bomb that was dropped Germany was the one that was posing the problem, not Japan but who was selected to receive a non-white So you see, they had degrees Although a Japanese who is not white, he's not Black either So we can compromise when he comes to the United States As far as housing is concerned, he can get a better job in the United States

Although he tried to compromise This, the North American government, you see You find professors right here at the University of North Carolina that were working here long before Black professors were offered a given job that are farmers, that are farmers that is that were very much indeed In disagreement with our policies and they were in the position of being the aggressor Sneak attack on Pearl Harbor as an example But yet come to the United States and are treated much better than a race on ethnic group that fought for the same independence that we eventually are seemingly warned

Yeah, I don't just say it's amazing The former enemies Did you get better jobs in the United States than the people who fought for the United States against them? Definitely That's why I'm trying to Chinese that way But you have to, like I said before, in a Catholic society And you have to come to grips with this As long as you're in that type of society You've got to have a certain amount of blood suckers And they are going for the people that are going to help them to most The ones that fit are termed a deemed a threat For instance, after World War II We occupied Japan, right? Why didn't we occupy China? China was our ally The Chinese word

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