Great Decisions 1964; 1; America and Communism: The View From Abroad

the following program is made available to the station by national educational radio from new york city in the desert radio wypr presents great decisions nineteen sixty four air the subject of tonight's discussion world communism to date how great the danger tonight's and cooperation with the northeast regional office of the foreign policy association riverside radio presents the first debate great decisions nineteen sixty four radio discussions designed to increase effective public understanding of foreign policy problems facing the united states today or dissipating and tonight's discussion of world communism how great the danger will be up to alexander dudley and professor of international relations at columbia university and ehrlichman club but former director of the office of chinese affairs the state department and now research biographer with a modern china product at columbia university moderator for only

discussions as dr emil start formerly on the faculties of the new school and fairly dickinson university another actor of the foreign policy association is northeast region now to further comment on the great decisions nineteen sixty four project and begin tonight's discussion of world communism to date here is dr emil stop we're beginning here this evening one of a series of aid discussions on foreign policy that a part of the great decisions program this is the program that involves about three hundred thousand people throughout the united states and study discussion groups in their homes and businesses in factories in union halls and churches and another organizational settings the following programmes after this week will deal with france in the west egypt in the middle east disarmament castro's cuba in tunisia foreign aid and ideological war for each week

there will be groups of people meeting perhaps around early radio set or the tv set to listen to programs and to discuss some of these important subjects if you want information on how to form a group to carry on these discussions if you live in the new york area and really write a great decisions foreign policy association three forty five he's forty six treaty new york seventeen or telephone oxford seven nine only one if you live in boston albany springfield and new hampshire there are world affairs council and each one of these areas in boston in durham new hampshire hampshire world affairs council in springfield massachusetts and all the way these materials out there produced each year are in a can of eight itself for a dollar and fifty cents an hour most worthwhile a background for these discussion groups

now we'll proceed to the actual point of discussion this evening with dr dali and dr claud the question of world communism today only last week the world will public opinion was traded again to the spectacle of chinese communists are having a go at it with regard to the socal russian program the rush ems were accused by the chinese in an article in the league they're ideological journal of extreme revisionism osce letters m in the communist movement in peking his view this split is a means opposing and betraying marxism leninism usually in the interests of those was a the article went on to point out that the international workers' movements have always been troubled by so called

spoilers from the road as in the us in the second international who forced a lending to break away and form a new international to today's russian leaders whom they termed quote the greatest splinters and the quote questionnaires does this person i interview of the ideological split that's been going on for the last few years theres this latest chinese blast chris savage the setting up of the new communist international by the red chinese outgoing i would've liked to sound of the last say on the subject but it seems to me that each of these new documents are likely to come come out to become available to us really a very little the to the general picture as we've had it for years as boneless have

resisted at different times quote taking quite seriously the sun has over its that sooner or later i think the evidence of became overwhelming and well one more label one more turns out that in fact it seems to me the split has been a remarkable and reversible for quite some time though neither the soviets in all the chinese so that pushed into an all out open break but the thing has reached such proportions that covers so many issues at this point that it seems to be quite clear that there's no road back well whether or not actually a new organization will be set up by the chinese so i'm not at all sure that seems to me it is not likely that they will form an international well because a lot of their appeal is quite limited and it would probably the trailer relative weakness and secondly because of within the so called chinese orientation they are such a very diverse a strain take the albanians and the board chinese brazilian of

big japanese communist well perhaps not as many things on which they disagree as on which they agree but there is ample disagreement among them and this is one thing that jenny hundred likely because at this point i've lived another point though and that the average comes to our politics only chinese if they were to form a new international i would leave open the possibility or would open up the possibility of an actual open political break with the soviet union which would really the soviet union of the obligation of extending a nuclear umbrella of protection over china and would be that exposed i don't think they're ready i think for some time there has been a distinction you're quite right that this was a consideration in their minds but i think for some time there has been a distinction between state and party relations and as because of

yugoslavia please don't believe so that it has started a record forty eight it is conceivable to have a break between party use and yet have staged readings such as the sino soviet country divided fifty continue in force but i think you're quite right that this becomes less and less likely as in the past year we have seen the same sort of dispute escalating openly into new areas including distinctly state economic military and other relations border problems and so forth and you have the circumstance like wasn't even pretty continues in force it's got a time limit of thirty years and i am fourteen years of war he pastors there are that within a short number of years china at the tricky runoff would be exposed that won't be a nuclear power within that time of the what would build and what is the president lineup actually love going into the ninety one different communist parties but as far as the major ones who sees who see beyond the russian side and in

whom on the chinese side well as was there still some disagreement on that subject and in fact i would say that on certain issues one can of course line them up on the russian engineers and yet effective many more than two rulings for instance on the question all the nuclear test ban treaty at least until customers recent visit among the communist party's in power fourteen the calculator five so china north korea north vietnam all being here and you were not signing it was against the league east european states amman reuters citing with the soviet union now the proportions here define our little piece of data for if you look at the international movement as a whole the overwhelming number of communist parties including the ones in western europe for instance aside were the soviets but do so i would suggest a very different reasons some

cases they've been sort of the traditional discipline independence of the guys in the front party in some cases those will be italian party leaders primarily because they want to go further than the i'm sort of partly in their disagreements over chinese and similar arguments so when you have it wide range of different arguments and in fact in a good many parties even the small and insignificant one such as the belgian the swiss the brazilian oh you have splits and the family had two parties side by side one moscow oriented and won beating oriented all these again are owners of their vacations and then the really the crucial a group of for those who support both sides of it deals more about this are the ones that are still to some extent on the fence have not fully throw in the law certainly in the nation and japanese a delivery mask party as well well in the case of indonesians over two million members the largest single and effective part in

indonesia that leans towards the chinese but continues to maintain some revisions of the moscow is in fact the north vietnamese that's a good description of the situation actually many of the asian parties have tended to move into a drill its position you might call it they are like the north vietnamese party planning to in the chinese phrase ride defense of the north vietnamese of course being so close to china you have to take into consideration that part of my big served against him and all of the team and the leader of the party is so i believe personally pro moscow says it has to take into consideration his dangerous position consequently that endeavor is to play one against the other and i believe that's one of the outstanding alumni of the present situation you've got a number of these communist parties like countries not necessarily communist countries countries of all complex since moving into

positions where they can play one power against another one four so again some other and many of them are learning the game franchise is a very important point and it might disagree we pursued on the extent of which north vietnam is on the fence or in the room on the chinese side i frankly dont know thing really about what's this number and beyond what one really obvious media but the fact is certainly important that one consequence all the but increasing seriousness of the finals of a disagreement as the ability of others are too we'll take more initiative to convert what had been a dictator a situation or to the soviets that were negotiating situation certainly above believe the amount of latitude initiative which remain as displayed this past year is it seems to me a direct consequence of the situation where the romanian communist leadership cannot gamble and gambled correctly that at this juncture for a variety of reasons including the son of

soviet of whose job will not march into bucharest waded into budapest if it ever came to anything like echelon of that sort which i'm sure moscow is eager to avoid was one of the situations that the act the club referred to north vietnam and it's a reluctance really to to choose between the red chinese the soviets so aware of the fact that the red chinese on the northern border there has been a star a girl a portion of the chinese into syria in fact the whole peninsula was at one time on the chinese influence and i suppose a coaching inn might fear that i'm in a future red chinese tide might involve all of the olive that peninsula and engulfed the vietnamese communists as well it goes through a natural

example of tibet is a lesson to always in countries as to what happens under chinese who generally and that is one reason why the outer mongolia is very clearly arnott desirous of reestablishing the old chaim less forces in that relationship with china on the other hand it seems to me is by no means an accident that the parties were just lined up on the chinese side are closer to the chinese are geographically the exception of buildings all in that crescent from milo well i'll take you the eastern part of all our party had an all over the burning is the million no tidy an indonesian japanese only up to japan that is it seems to me there is a certain sense feeling a certain similarity

off reaction common attitude towards the intensity of feeling towards imperialism if you will certain attitudes or perhaps the single most important one here to get into a different area untouched owners some of the prescriptions for how to seize power of build communism to me the most important moments in tv this so called the former so called direct action as against it an increasing proclivity to them bygone time and not risk a nuclear showdown or anything that could conceivably involve the soviet union into a confrontation that likely to aig nuclear showdown was saudi people feel it seems to me that in countries such as it was quite clear that any prominence the road to democracy is nonsense and they know it and in fact moscow mills or to visit was only adds to the dilemmas and frustrations of the soviet leadership david talk a little bit about some of the with seemingly the

age old chinese imperialist ambitions areas or book that chunk light shack hand and the chinese communist the new narrative that drive towards incorporating all we own problems is that once we're on the chinese dominion some of the areas around the chinese susan tape outer mongolia to bet liane noun peninsula and so it seems that the league the chinese communists of inherited some really so called imperialistic aims and goes only old chinese emperors and this has led some to believe that the clash with the soviet india's a clash of national interests of half forces rather than ideology the ordinary american is a little bit a confused here because he sees from time to time in the press the argument

waxing on ideological terms about what what i'm really the causes of the chinese so the chinese communist soviet russian rift i say ideological i'm a prowler interests and we enumerate some of these causes you have a number of clashes it seemed to me and i believe differently from song that they're the main clashes in the area of national interests are rare the ideological is not be entirely and now and i'm not particularly because it is so prominently displayed at the present time the ideological argument is being used as an instrument with which to fight some of these national interests and i believe that the conflict is in various areas one is in the conflict for development of spheres of influence this particularly of course in asia

where china adams to regard asia as its own particular problems that committee and the seine soviet union working hard to win influence in close eye apart like japan indonesia and india and suburban the chinese up they feel that the soviets are operating in their backyard that's one area of conflict then you have the area of conflict economic interests they soviets or an advanced nation in terms of economic development chinese are backward the chinese quite evidently have argued in moscow in these international conferences of communist parties for what constitutes a sharing of the socialist well a poorer parts of the communist bloc of the chinese argument should have a larger in vermont of goods money or services technology everything else from the richer sector

and this of course made russians resistant in fact one might suggest that perhaps the russians were glad enough to have enough of an alienation to relieve them on the task of supporting the chinese economically vital one tried to cover all areas of conflict of turnover for a moment let somebody else have a chance well i think we probably do see the thing a little differently arlette certainly not denied the options the financial sector but it seems to me that it is a subordinate one a quote let me say this really become more prominent oblate this was legally true in the cylinder was love dispute which began another round's very soon did acquire this national coalition as well and i would certainly be prepared to grant and likenesses that the ideological element has become more manipulative or drive that in

addition to the genuine ideological base which i believe is there it has also not been used you can certainly not find is some ideological argument the argument that would tell me why mongolia should be either the soviet or the chinese side of the fence at the same time it seems to me that people they call ideology is really another matter of a philosophical position that is not a dispute over an abstract theoretical points that basically over different strategies or how to act to the city in the world environment what opportunities there they are and here in traditional terms of left and right policies and that is when it really comes down to this is a familiar argument whether to look save as many as possible which need only in order to gain power or whether internet there you risk being subverted by

such alliances with the strength of our directly or whether to wait for that bygone time or two because your victory was inevitable or to bank on your mind lovin you haven't bought and so forth and it seems to me there are interlocking clusters of those arguments but when you go away from practical issues on how to behave towards the united states the danger of nuclear war on paper tigers and the all the rest the two the other issues that you have mentioned the i think very direct chinese cities that the soviets did not want to share nuclear weapons with them that they did not want to share economically with them and on the soviet side of course this ties in with the argument that what matters is to catch up with and overtake the united states economically it could not be done if you slow down your red rate of growth of all the benefits of the more backward parts

of the communist empire but then the words in addition to left right arguments in addition to leave russia china stayed arguments you have the advanced backward east west with everyone to call it that dichotomy and you also have finally we send her group ruby or the hierarchical the top and bottom argument that question of discipline within the communist world is there a first a leader among the communist party's woman's experience those were the accounts more than the opinion of the others and all of things it seems to me that by now is apple this agreement though between tours of the attorneys on this whole question of strategy once one finds a constant chinese communist carping at the russians for spending on monday an aging so called rosewater nationalist leaders like sukarno landed nasa iran and a room rather than the aid that has been given innocent of

minutely fashion to the chinese prime minister but again this reflects a matter of strategy here and there are people that say that the the russians are at this present time resurrecting some of the banners that they use so successfully ten or twelve years ago in terms of the world power struggle mainly the banner of nationalism of peace and of trade or trident attack certain portions of the western camp from the leadership of the united states and therefore we can power that is thanks in the balance of forces in their favor but then one can turn around dr dali in and point out the fact that you unlike himself seems to be at this time playing a sort of so called laws why national support by his safari in africa out where he was quite successful

in making some diplomatic headway with when non communist leaders and i wonder where that i am a comment on this you brought this up because it seems to me important to distinguish between what we might call the principled position of the theoretical are humans on the part of each week participants over its chinese and the others and the actual policy of age certainly the republican tell us more about this the chinese in practice and up and fanatical have not risk a showdown that they have been extremely skillful at in fact at stopping at work with some of our fellow political scientists call conflict management of going just so far and not risking too much in fact of course now being deprived or forcing the situation of being deprived of economic and other support from within the communist camp they have been obliged to go elsewhere for

trade if they can ensure rubio japan was true in canada and england now friends world oh the welcome party is economic and perhaps political for them given a chance and of course this may have very broad implications for chinese policy on something in mind here was the fact that the chinese appeal as a revolutionary car must go the large extent to non the marxist president national movements which says some types exist in latin america and on the other hand that economically some of the possible compensation for the loss of the bridge soviet and other water aid must come from precisely the type of bourgeois states and the very fact that the chinese of course have managed chinese communists have managed to establish decent relations with some of the small world of the almost futile neighbors cambodia or some of the other programs

but you have put your finger on what might be called a particularly lowest form of contradiction that highlights a very important matter they are after are getting along very revolutionary weighs in at the same time they have alienated the most revolutionary party at the soviet union they have stood against most of the east european communist parties against likewise the french military and not to mention the american they likewise a debate biggest enemy of them all is human states as the greatest in khost of them all in their terms in sharp they've taken on enemies on both the right and on the left blair left there for only with the middle and as you suggest they are at the present time a cohabiting i went home

the kings and the princes of the rest of the world giving us on those visits by joan like quincy on no go cambodia was entertained in peking and so on this i think suggests something to us you suggest to me that in order to get along with people like that soprano and they're trying to do when they move back master king of song if you will others and in order to trade with french with the australians with the canadians they will have to adjust their policy wonk from one a violent radicalism to add to one of moderation they will have to become revisions i find that this is one of the outstanding factors is operating at this time they only possibility that this area will be broken down that in my opinion of course i'm offering an excuse here for failure fueled to analyze

public but the only chance for me if you know hey just in no hurry ladies' side suddenly it's cry you know it right now politically economically militarily every way and fall a world of violence and radicalism and which would almost certainly in my opinion bleed into abject failure but if they are sober and they seem to be so we're out with respect to things that affect them primarily that i think that there will have to become more moderate very interesting you know because they know this is really not in conflict with all things from a little line in this tradition after all some famous attack on the left is another disease in the during the early years of me bossert religion lend an argument a quite effectively i think against the jurors still needs to make more deals will make no effort to come to some temporary arrangement of the other side of us a

golf trading environment in inglewood have you a sliding again strength and women's ultimate victory mean you of course are preparing for the better day now there were people that of course to organ in the nineteen twenties and russia capitalism was just around the corner of a common as it was being run out of the lenin and stalin had returned really to a new form of anti communism in general but this is alternately not so a question in other words is whether such a strategy remains at a temporary one that is whether the leadership remains of where all the ultimate goal and does this nearly as a short term proposition or whether willy nilly but it leads to a shift in policy it would seem the celebrities in the twenties it definitely did not leadership of policy with the same relaxation of tensions which

the soviet leadership store for the nineteen twenty one on for a number of years that perceives now as one of the possible objectives part of what your book now it seems to me maybe two very different things than it did then the question then is whether the son of a detente this is habit forming are it is only but i intend that as a short term peel your alternative on really conflict is really intended as only a short term win over obviously utopia persists at gold's el james is still remain in existence but as time goes on new factors come in and require further just one and of that we have seen enough of the operation of people striving for utopias to realize a third generally they don't reach them and there's no particular reason to believe that in this world there were

communism at the present time undertaking diversification instead of unification likewise many new factors coming into the picture that these goals will not remain the gold says they're established at the present time in peking or in moscow will not remain still a century hints say only something to strive for in the future and in the meantime you'll have to live it's like the chinese they have to have read therefore they reached an agreement with the australian glance argentina add to purchase week the soviet union had recently agreed to families are practical day to day things in the day to day thing is frequently will alter for a long period of time the long term strategy you mentioned the the word detente here in the whole question arises about the so called detente between the soviet union and the united states or is it this is about halfway detente or

merely a detour and out with regard to the question of the rift between the red chinese and the soviets this has been given as one of the major reasons for the soviet union's drawing perhaps a little closer to the united states do you agree with us that the boats are professor club refers to dialing that the rift between the biggie moscow and beating as one of the reasons for the possibility of the detente or are there other reasons i don't quite understand what you mean one of the reasons for the possibility of the day can go you mean that the sino soviet driftwood contributor will be bringing closer together of the united states and the soviet union boeing that they're in power in moscow so frightened of its own backyard didn't have to come to terms with the united states and i believe that it is not so frightened of its backyard of the past come to terms and believe that this is a strategy that was

adopted in the middle nineteen fifties by the communist bloc gondor that moscow leadership at that time and was consented to agreed to by china starting in nineteen fifty seven we decided to try to get a change in policy this is your policy does he established policy is established romney soviet point of view i like you can correct me bad but established from the soviet point of view on the basis of the principles of peaceful coexistence economic cooperation with the underdeveloped part of the world because they think this is a winning strategy and me chinese versions of a speech that may be somewhat influence that particular concept but it is not the reason for the concept that did not get broke that will buy one of the actions of the different way it seems to me that of the sino soviet

disagreements have been built because of the consequence of low the search for a rapprochement however limited therefore a getting a bit more closely together between the soviet union and the united states says to me oh you're right of course the peaceful coexistence is an old sort of formal up but if we get away from major labels it seems to me that the image of what the united states is like what it is likely to do how strong it is about whether it is likely to attack or not to attack the communist world that if you report begins the seven were lost thousands of the two different substantially and so i think there was a genuine basis of difference in the perception off nuclear weapons me that the danger of nuclear war the implications the sort of thing that led approach of people biking the cuban prices something of which of course the chinese have not taken very

kindly a lot now it seems to me that up the basic disposition in this direction was already there same idea that did not affect the chinese pointed it out at the time and loving on all they've so it's refused to get nuclear weapons a texaco which over the time it came to visit eisenhower the famous spirit of camp david with me jenna has never believed in progress all the rest was already there and therefore it was quite natural that with the aggravation all the signs of a difference is the test ban treaty last july oh that reason of the timing between the two i would suggest was to some extent a matter of compensation a matter of choice either or but as we said earlier that as opposed to the vessel does have tried to avoid it complete break with the chinese just as of course clearly they have not committed themselves irrevocably to this policy of smiled and conciliation with us

and all that do you won't feel the deli and that perhaps the agricultural crisis that the russians seem to be facing is one of the reasons for the change in behavior know it brings up the whole question that is always played at people and examined the soviet policy is their relationship between the domestic problems at home and in foreign policy well i don't think the present a rebuttal crisis of such a mind my own view as a direct impact if only because me policy as we now see it has been going on for quite some time a time going back before the present economic crisis affect prices may be an overstatement but i think there is a direct relationship between the domestic and foreign and then in the following reports for one thing or i suppose if

i could as khrushchev quite genuinely want is the greatest objectives are what he would like to be seen as in retrospect on the stage of history i think it would probably be well as some of the notes that the for the better communist by contrast with stalin london managed to reign in better life to the soviet union there's been a running controversy in the soviet union the train the advocates of local what very very loosely could be called welfare communism or the greater insistence even on consumer goods and so forth and regular think on various occasions that they would do a desolation in contradiction has come around to supporting this frustrated as he has been time and again by the compelling needs of the military space center where another development that detract from so that if you were to ask which in his mind has a priority on development for inactivity his expansion our domestic development increasing standards of living

and all the rest of us say quite clearly domestic development of this as something implications because and the allocation of resources are obviously there was a reciprocal relationship the more you pour into well the development of certain types of domestic things beginning with housing to take one obvious areas forthcoming the lesser have left to commit to the farm developments the other one the other way in which the mystic developments i think impinge on foreign policy bill is a much bigger one and that as though social change in long red a situation in which a leadership or a single either as in stalin's that can dictate single handed know i'm not one of those who thinks the world which all of us are the prisoner of the brazilian or it too will all the group but more and more there are crystallizing when this country's legal interest groups people would have a distinct positions and different positions on foreign policy that the disarmament issue isn't one example relations with the united states the consumer

goods groups which have a way of communicating their views to the leadership the leadership was not compelled to listen to a little of color views but there was a way in which it public opinion and there was no sense oh totally ignored by the leadership not to be sure that does not conform to some of our stereotypes about the military has been so much else that has happened including which owns almost apart including dozens of interest was not foreseen by any of us who were addicted to be a conventional view of an unchanging one notices a dark club you had or something and support but you know understand that the twenty second congress the program of communism the state of communism to be established in the soviet union about twenty years hence i believe i was clearly a picture of an affluent communist or socialist society

communist society now this survey indicated very clearly the emphasis on the domestic aspects of the soviet ever present time and one thing is to be brought out of that is that this was in direct contrast to anything that the chinese could envisage not only within twenty years but perhaps within fifty or a hundred years and i'd like to make one point further and me no matter above of the year approaches we have is a crop failures and so forth and there's one thing that the soviet purchase of wheat dollars indirectly and that is make it more expensive for china to import wheat it increases the shipping rates it reduces the supply it hikes the price and this is a very interesting thing and it's a peculiar really interesting to me yes there is a certain compensating effect here

and that is really deals makeup fully irrationality is on both sides are over a production and we'd subsidies and the soviets collective agriculture voted to take advantage of the full potential of not knowing you were mentioning some of the so called interest groups in the soviet union seemed to be on the president that perhaps weren't so on the president to limit been under the surface and in the stalin period just recently the american press noted that the field marshal o'malley not ski issued a blast at so called pacifism in in russian movies and then accused one of the movie makers of being infected with e with the disease of pessimism of the worst aspects of pessimism that came out of eric maria remarks famous movie all quiet on the book and movie all quiet on the western front and i liked i'd like you to comment on this

whole general public a general question to what extent is there a liberalization in the soviet union in terms of of the artist the scientist a student hour is this a manager contrive kinder liberalization that day is ephemeral and end up and that we are exaggerating it beyond the beyond that its true value it's always hard to find just the right balance here is very easy to exaggerate that of course and until recently most of us would have said the party still have the last word in the possibility of recourse to forcible measures in fact there have been of very ugly instances of course of confining individual writers and insane asylums and the attacks in boston mark and so forth and it seems to me there is also a danger of underestimating the reality of these things it's one of the first real things that happened in the post on those wars but the abandonment of terror as a regular rhythm

of government or one place in before that is the dune longer have the threat of terror is the jarring means to go to compel conformity an expression of let alone in and thought well in practice we reach a situation where last winter for the first time rather surprisingly perhaps was to the intellectuals and the regime really the communist party was unable to get the leading intellectuals oh the button down as but of all the attacks including over whose job of low on that modern art and one specific writers one of film because of head of idealize the united states or other there are germs that rather correctly does describe a trip to this country in certain particulars of a mildly a matter of fact he's still a member of the party but for the first time that i can think of a group of russian

intellectuals including nobel prize winners and find the songwriters collectively send a letter to the party leadership protesting some things that will in the world is this sort of factionalism economists would call it initiative from well critically or directing an appeal to the government when it would have been impossible or an enlightened repression today these people survive if they don't drive them at these databases they coexist with a regime another of the regime is unwilling or unable to go all the way and i would think that some of the liberalization isn't a sense of the medical treatment of liberalization of the regime does that in order to avoid being faced with greater pressures on the part of some elements well they're demanding such gestures all in all isn't bummed of the fact remains that they still have a one party system of censorship

but the whole apparatus that you're familiar with his forces are unions concerned about there is undoubtedly a greater variety of expression on a great number of issues in public and in private that most of the case and any time i can think of for thirty forty years that the club is there any possibility of that the head chinese communists will a return to that very short of political experiment that has characterized by the term led a hundred flowers bloom the period that mao tse tung a loud criticism within the chinese communist party in which he soon shabazz wife emma was too much you have no chance in my opinion with invisible picture and derives from a certain sense that delayed and printed in the hundred flowers are invited them in to say with the idea that the hundred dollars there'd be all components that this would be at a

communist party and they discovered that under the us out of acceptance there was actually resistance the whole educational effort at the present time in china is being directed form a socialist man a man who thinks whether he's in the party of the communist of the communist party of china or outside that things like mobs of bone acts like mumford on main the russians are in a much different position they had the present time are playing a whirl rolan are forced to be cosmopolitan they're playing a role even with respect the eastern european states which requires him to have different attitudes from soviet tunes and the chinese on the other hand are at the present time by reason of the conflicts in which they're indulging her being driven back to the original chinese medical centers and they are

becoming a more egocentric as time goes on by the pressures of hostility that they feel are directed against them that for i tend to believe that this effort to make people conform i will are assessed and the chinese have been much a blur at trying to make people conform by the exercise of political and social pressures and the russians never tried to be so that i feel that there will be no relaxation again within the near future that in along the lines of an experiment that resulted sober disastrously and in nineteen fifty seven ad for the chinese you mentioned the the eastern european bloc an air duct bellini the trend toward liberalization has proceeded further a place and has in the soviet union would you care to comment at all on the radio the extent to which there has been a liberalization in various countries in eastern europe and the effect of this

on the block relationship yes i think we have tended to underestimate what has gone on in fact i myself think that the current satellite is no longer appropriate it was no longer appropriate for most of the stricken state still is for sale overseas germany i think i would distinguish between two different types of development one is the one that we're a local party or state leadership in eastern europe both have taken more independent steps independent from moscow the other one is when the internal development in the country has really evolved in the realization that you don't necessarily go hand in there the romanians have acted quote independently and economic policies on the relations with the west but really in the country or you know the situation not terribly different from what existed early on the other

hand in hungary iran it will tragically and the levels of the events of nineteen fifty six we now have a generalization that is gone quite far further probably been a bomb right now from anywhere else in eastern europe at the same time cut art love finds itself today perhaps closer to who shall than any of the other top man among these europeans in communist leaders so that that once again what once was a picture as well a very complicated regulations love of hungary poland or lesser extent in the lead as far as religion is concerned and in different degrees of the goal moving in the same direction finally even czechoslovakia which for a long time are wildly the stalinist i pulled out inching in the same general direction of the possible exception of east germany where there are special conditions of

course but maybe it was unwise an impossible for the soviets and for the local leadership that to go very far in the same direction without inviting disaster and the true also that as far as some of the bloc countries are concerned there is no unnatural gravitation by some of them toward the concept of east west trade truly the common market and then indeed there has been a good deal of pressure in the communist dominated world federation of trade unions by some of the eastern european trade union movement we're going to ask carl now what is the present state of the of these affairs in and what sort of policies can we adopt them for their list of ten you know i think you're asking one of the most difficult questions the artist i think there's no question at all but for the romanians the lawyers for the checks for the polls our trade with the west as quite important in fact their ability to trade with the west as one of the things

that has added to sort of frustrations because the soviets on the one hand have themselves of course faltering cruz a trigger the west at the same time this has well maybe more difficult the economic integration of the communist bloc which as we were sitting for more slowly than moscow had intended and has faced far more resistance then the soviets had anticipated know of a lot of our interview it seems to me there was a danger also focusing so totally on with european integration political and economic as to deprive us of a possibility oh while exercising some leverage with regard to eastern europe and in fact and the soviet union i would say by means of bringing them into closer relationship to the common market or some similar arrangements that is if the price all of european west european integration or to be a more total rate of fact something of angels fear of the movie the train the

common market countries and the rest of europe including the ominous parts i would say we'll do at least think twice and i would say probably oh way alternative policies because a lot of the strongest attractions that we have as big of a non communist rule collectively here and as we oh they have with regard to the common as pork is precisely the intensified economic and of applause why not mine i might point the other does seem to be a particular effort being made just at this moment on the part of france west germany japan other countries to trade substantially more with while eastern europe and with early soviet union and there seems to be at a new development like think it would cancel out some of these a disadvantage is that you might feel that we have by the boatman of such a large organization is a common market wanting to be remarked is of course surges that the united states is largely outside of

this because the part of the western world so called conventionally the trades and most with both eastern europe and the soviet union not to mention china and cuba that is quite clearly the non american park and that also true of the body or a special feel interested that the opportunity presented to the red chinese to break out of their economic isolation by the french it is certainly an important factor here and in red chinese diplomacy that has been unable to get too much out of their trade relationship with the british in the hope that that their big old the older provide them with some leverage here yes but there's a rather large condition to be attacked under that and that is that the chinese are in a very poor reform trade position of the president and they just don't have the foreign exchange consequently if you look their foreign trade

figures for the past few years when they've been endeavoring to develop new outlets and new sources of supply you'll discover that there have been a very distinct drop in trade with the communist bloc and particularly with the soviet union but that there has not been a commensurate climb in their trade with the non communist part of the world this reflecting of course and being as a financial and ability of the chinese economic state at this moment well we were exploring their world communism today how great the danger this is one of the eight great decisions topics this year will be discussing franzen the west next week those of our listeners who would like information as to how to form a great decision study discussed discussion group of their own using the material of foreign policy association if

you live in the new york area you may write two great decisions foreign policy association three forty five east forty six three new york seventeen or else for oxford seven nine or eight one if you live in boston or a new hampshire in springfield massachusetts are in albany new york you can receive such information from calling the local world affairs council that sponsors the great decisions program these are celebrate minister discussion groups one does not mean necessarily a train discussion leader carry on these discussions the materials the eight great decisions materials sell for dollar and a half on express my thanks to professor darlene and to strip club for their coming here today to discuss this most important subject thank you ever new york city's riverside

radio wypr has presented great decisions nineteen sixty four communism today how great the danger of dissipating and this was great decisions nineteen sixty four discussion with dr alexander darlene <unk> had been global and the continued stop racing at now the un is professor of international relations at columbia university and the globe is former director of the office of chinese affairs us state department and our research the modern china project

columbia university moderate republican new star is director of the foreign policy associations northeast region next week at this rate decisions nineteen sixty four was the question france and the west when atlantic unity survive among the panelists will be dr john's east us is a professor of political science at hunter college robert cleveland former chief of the cbs paris bureau and no member of the new york times editorial board and help them beat cleveland director of the atlantic policy studies program the council on foreign relations that's next week france and the west atlantic unity survive at this is the work