Arturo Toscanini: The man behind the legend; Howard Barlow

You're listening to Don't get me. The man behind the legend. This is Ben Grauer saying Welcome to another broadcast of Toscanini the man behind the legend. NBC special commemorative series for the world renowned conductor of the NBC symphony for so many toto Toscani program tonight will include the Gazza LA Rossini and the Symphony Number One hundred and one the clock symphony of Franz Josef Haydn and as is our custom at intermission time.

We'll talk with still another of maestros friends and colleagues the distinguished American conductor how a concert begins now as we hear out toto Toscanini and the NBC symphony orchestra in the overture to LA got some LOT of Rossini. The end The end.

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yeah it'll it'll it'll. There were two until I got so lobbed Rossini without toto Toscanini conducting the NBC symphony orchestra has been the opening number on this the 27 broadcast of Toscanini the man behind the legend. Each week during our intermission and we're privileged to

chat informally with people who've been a part of the Toscanini legend it across our NBC microphones in front of me here in studio to see is a man whose friendship with Maestro began in 1970 a man whose careers included the leadership of the CBS Symphony Orchestra and of course many years of distinguished broadcasts and telecasts of the Firestone Alan Howard Balo HOWARD It's indeed a pleasure to welcome you to our broadcast and to recall those golden days of the NBC symphony orchestra in the Firestone are both in the Studio 8H if I recall correctly you saw him a great deal there didn't you. My dressing room was just two doors away from his age so we met very often there and chatted. Doctor he was always very friendly very nice very friendly. I remember one time a famous bassoon player came out of his his office his dressing room just as I was leaving mine and there was quite an argument going on. But soon as my sister saw me he was just as friendly

and beaming and pleasant. And after he had gone on the bassoon player whom I knew very well he said Just see how nice you can be when he likes someone. But I guess the pursuing player got in the glare got it got it and getting it from Meister was a very common experience. Oh yes I'm sure that you dropped into the Masters rehearsed many times I sat in the back and just listened just listened with my ears open. You see I had a flute player who had played with vi and Gardner. And at that time Toscanini was entirely a symphony conductor. But my astro used to leave M.A. and join the Vienna Philharmonic and travel along with them to hear all of the vine garden rehearsals and he he was a great follower of vine Gardiner up to a certain point and if you know the vine Gartner's the knot of us were too young to know of no one vine heard of it. We have heard of it and I

fortunately began collecting records way back in 1995. Dropping into rehearsals means that Meister perhaps dropped into yours when you were doing the firestorm. Yes he used to do it and it was always very nerve wracking and he said to me in the back there oh yeah. Sometimes in the balcony in the Oscars he would tip me off when he was there and your first concert and your concert master and I had to be very careful because there's something there's something about him that that was to me at least. I was always afraid of trying to be accused of being accused of trying to imitate it. So to be myself when he was around was very difficult because he he inspired you to do better than you knew how. And he frightened you until you couldn't always do it. It was that the tensity that he projected into music which is so well that is the music the way it is supposed to be. And there's no you can't argue about it that's just it.

Tensity and utter devotion to plead to the composer sleep early darkest hours to professionals in music. You talk professionally about music. Oh yes yes we exchanged ideas of what was good music what wasn't good music of course. He knew me originally as a tireless symphony conductor which I was until 1943 when I took the voice of Firestone where you played more popular there I was told that I had to play popular music and I decided that I would. I told him that I'd play anything that was written. But I wouldn't try to play anything that wasn't written meaning that was my way of telling him I wouldn't play or improvise jazz or anything which was never asked of me of course. So I told my astro to not please not listen to the voice of Firestone because we were going to play popular music he said but I like popular music. And I said well that's fine he said I'm going to play the Rhapsody in Blue. So I told him about the piano concerto Gershwin Piano Concerto which he did know about and very shortly after that he

played that. But he eventually came in and said But now you're not playing popular music you're playing Drage. And it was very difficult for me to discover and decide what was his what was the dividing line there between popular music and Trey. Have you an idea what he meant what where his dividing line was. Yes I know exactly where his delight dividing line was the vapid sentimental. Inane music was trash. That is the tonic and dominant and the over and over and over and over again the same harmony is the Sevens and all that to him was that bit of David he called Trace and he was right he was perfectly right. On the other hand still is. Oh yes or yes. On the other hand a popular tune like. And any any Gershwin tune which is so natural so easy so I think some of the melodies in parky and Bess are

really almost Mozart Iand in their conception they are they are delightful. And here you join maestro in that all completely or completely completely. But when he when he would get after me about triage he was perfectly he was perfectly right and I knew that but I was working for a client that was paying me very well to do what they wanted me to do. As you well can understand that long long story. It was it was a very successful with its wide wide audience on the other hand you had opinions about some of his programs and recordings you discussed discuss things together. Well I never put up much of an argument with my a straw about things. Matter of fact there's nothing to argue about. When he had decided the thing it was like the famous story. When the fellow monic was trying to some of the backers were trying to get it get them to combine with the Metropolitan. Oh yeah.

Yes and they asked Maestro he was then the musical director of the film money. And they asked him he was in Italy. He didn't reply. So they got very excited and they kept asking him and asking him and finally he replied it was a cablegram. And it simply said no and that was that was the end of that. That's the way he was with music when he had made up his mind in the first place. He took infinite. Definitive care that what he did was correct. That that was the way the composer wanted it. He was more or less say they say he was a slave to a metronome that there is no such thing as being a slave to the material. The I have a little metronome which I carry with me a little pocket. I refer to it constantly for to get my tempi as nearly correctly as I think the composer wanted it and that is what my astro that was the

big lesson I learned from my history my astro could take a C major scale or a G major scale. And if you want to play it on the piano until it was not just a scale. It was something out of this world it was it was it had a new beauty a new meaning. Just that the scale it never had before. He could make a little retard ondel in what he called a robot the sentry and Temple. That is he took his own robot but he always kept them in the temple and that was what made that just a tiny difference which was the difference between prose and poetry. And there was the great port. And as I've seen him do it. He did it he just did it. I said to the violinist one time how did he get that question. Well he just did it. And how did he get this right did he rehearse that are the parts

marked. Oh no he said he just he just did it. We just did it did it one time that way another time another way but always so delicately that you couldn't you couldn't tell the difference you know with the with these super musical intuition that you spoke about. Would you agree that Maestro also was a very shrewd realistic man about human relations and he could spot a fraud all with an X-ray. Oh I remember I heard him. Oh well one particular conduct we all thought was a faker. He was an Italian and my astro got so furious at him that he said he was. He just couldn't stand it he was a disgrace to the Italian race. And he was right in that on the other hand. The protege is that he some of them have who have done so well where he was

so justified in his in his confidence in them. Of course the greatest of us can telly Of course there is no question but I use that name as a tragic loss of young great loss a great loss of course. Erich Leinsdorf has done beautifully beautifully and Steinberg has done so well and of course Wallenstein has done very well and he when they were all proteges of his Those were the ones that that knew how to absorb the maestro's experience. So in your in your musical relationship he did he'd comment on yourselves or on broadcast of yours that he heard. Oh yeah we used to have telephone conversations in my office that were the wires would just burn. Yeah. One time a very well-known Soprano was going to sing a part from Aida and the introduction to that is a beautiful little solo and I

worked on it and worked on it and I tried very hard to. I never heard my sister do it. I tried very hard to get his that feeling of rubato my simpering temple. And I worked out what I thought was a delightful. I thought it was a nice rebuttal. Well we did it. The next day. My master called me up. And all he would say was ma ma ma bad bad. And I said my sister what was bad. My model I model it all he would say was Molly and I don't know what was the matter with it but he just didn't like it. So he had to call me up and tell me so and then he hung up he just said good bye and hung up that was all just one convert one word. Robot to be I mean Miley Miley Miley. So that was that. Rubato media of course stole in the strict temple worship are 1 2 3 4 and for the expression The motion is a little stealing of the temple but not actually not

actually that is and I evidently took it a little too broad in my rebuttal. And there's where his taste was so. So marvelous that he knew just how much to take and not more. Those phone calls are frequent but he even called me up in the hospital one time I had a barber over at another network. We had Bob. This was before I came over for 1943. And I kept going over to him one day he nicked my nose and gave me an infection and I wound up in the Mt. Kisco hospital. But of course as you know Bruno Serato was a great personal friend of mine asked the manager of the former yes former manager. Yes and my sister came out to his summer place Marcus gold and told him that I was in the hospital with his infected nose so he called me up to say he was sorry I was sick and then then

before he had scarcely said that when he began talking about the cuts they current conductor of the. Solomonic was going to make in the Eldar fall stuff now. I had played Falstaff several times and liked it very much. It's a work that is practically unknown. My astro knew it. That is he had played it he had never and he had played at the piano but had never performed it. He was interested in performing it and he knew that my timings were very accurate and that my memory for timings was good and my card catalogue was practically infallible on the timing. This is because after all I was raised in the radio business and so are you so you know what timings mean when it comes to getting a programme off on time. And a programme in radio that doesn't come off on time of course is not a good programme. So before I had a chance to tell him that I was getting better he began railing about how good this conductor get

all of the music on the program and without making some cuts and fast stuff so how long did file stuff take. And I told it took about 28 minutes. Then that was all I needed to say. Because he began railing railing railing about this man for having cut fall stuff because he said stuff was incredible. It is uncountable. So when the performance came off and he heard it. Well then there was another telephone call in which he called me up to tell me that he was right that you cannot cut foreign stuff and that the conductor had ruined it by cutting it I agreed with it. Perfect. Another quality we get research devotion to the score to the composer's intent taste. And once arrived at uncompromising on compromise I have timings. I have timings from my Astros performances I used to sit every performance every performance. With the score and the stopwatch at home.

I studied with him. I made notes of the timings from a year to year to year those timings. Any movement of any work didn't vary over three or four seconds. And you would remember another thing my stopwatch could have heard a little bit too I rather think that the stopwatch was an error more than he was extraordinary. It was extra. Well Howard it's interesting that you and maestro had this musical Into cause it was more than a one way road. I remember that picture in your in your office and I've asked you to bring along here to check here at the microphones. I know how proud you are of it. Oh well that's that Maestro see I gave you. Nobody knows and you know I've never mentioned it to anybody and I think it's dated 1943 That's right. I think that's 20 years ago already. And he writes in the back. My dear Barlow not only in your research may I read this I well yes if you want to. Not only in your recent concerts with the philharmonic orchestra I admired you but a long time before.

You are among the very very few conductors I'm reading in his anger. Highly individualistic writing is how I view among the very very few conductors who do not pretend to create what is already created by the composer themselves. Bravo. Three exclamation marks sincerely as I toured Toscanini. Yes I'm proud of that that is my diploma. Shall we say where you joined in musical companionship because he says here not created by the composer themselves. He goes back again. Yes the source of his dedication and inspiration. How and how would you then sum up what it is that you feel over the years of your knowledge and listening to Maestro. Well he did. He was the the end of a great era. He freed music from

the decay of tradition. Above all he sought the truth in music. He was very similar to Beethoven who was a revolutionary in music and the WHO free music from the traditions of the Talon domination which were current at his time. Mozart of course began freeing music and Mozart in his quaint little way. Hated the singers who saying everything are at a table. He wanted the rhythm and the temple correct. And Beethoven followed along of course and. It was Mozart who said of Beethoven he's going to make a big noise in the world and he did of course. And then the other true prophets who carried the torch of truth and just followed along. And of

course the last one was Arturo Toscanini. There never be another one. Not not during my lifetime there may be one who will come along and discover the same truths that my pastor had discovered. And when he comes along he will free music again from the domination which which is now suffering under already. So there are so very few who can carry the torch the way my sister carried. Thank you Howard Barlow our guest at intermission time has been the distinguished American conductor Howard Valo. You're listening to Toscanini the man behind the Legend concert by Otto Toscanini and the NBC symphony orchestra continues now as we hear these Symphony Number One hundred and one the clock symphony by Front yourself Haydn. Thank you. Thank you.

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Man. You have been listening to Toscanini the man behind the ledger NBC special

series about the life and music about total Toscanini. Tonight's program included the all that you had to like Gazza law and the Symphony Number One hundred and one the clock symphony of Franz Josef hype distinguished American conductor Howard Barlow as our guest of intermission time. Next week. Another friend of maestros a man who was the commentator of his early New York Philharmonic broadcast will be with us to tell us some interesting anecdotes about his own extended friendship including one we think you'd be delighted to hear concerning former mayor of New York and Otto Toscanini and a three alarm blaze. On future broadcast we'll talk with Jerome Hines musher Davenport Eugenia Gail Leach I'll Benet's it Milton Katims as well as many others of maestros friends and colleagues. Music next week will include the psyche and at us of Frank the Moldau of Smetana and the fountains of Rome by a speech. Script materials for these broadcasts is taken from the personal files of the Toscanini family in Riverdale

New York. The programs are produced for NBC under the supervision of Don Gillis. This is Ben groud speaking. You heard one of the series of programs produced at NBC in 1963. Edition with Tauriel for this presentation came from the Toscanini archives with post production by William D hay and editing by Sherry Hutchinson. This program is brought to you by the South Carolina Educational Radio Network. Which are partners from Cooper Industries incorporated and Mr. and Mrs. G which are chapter. Additional funding comes from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. This is NPR National Public Radio. Move.