Odyssey

Women have been having babies for EON's but somehow giving birth remains a controversial process with a range of opinion about what is best. I'm Gretchen helper 10 today on Odyssey Dr. Quentin Young joins me to hear different views on child birth how it should happen and who should control it. How many choices are available to women these days and what attitudes shape the practices of the professionals who serve them. That's today on Odyssey. Next after the news from NPR here on WBEZ Chicago. From National Public Radio News in Washington I'm CORBA Coleman a second wave of bombing against Iraq has begun. Today President Clinton said the decision to attack Iraq was difficult but right. NPR's Mara Liasson reports. President Clinton met in the Oval Office today with the vice president and his national security team. He was getting a briefing about the damage the U.S. bombing raids have caused. He said he was

convinced the decision to order the strikes was in the interest of the United States and in the interest of people around the world. The president was asked about comments by Republican leaders Trent Lott and Dick Armey that the order was made to divert attention from impeachment. The president said that's not true. I don't think it is a serious person. Believe that any president would do such a thing and I don't believe any reasonably astute person in Washington would believe that Secretary Cohen and General Shelton and the whole rest of the national security team would produce such action and the president points out that other Republicans such as Senators Jesse Helms John McCain John Warner and Richard Lugar support the action. Mara Liasson NPR News the White House. Defense Secretary William Cohen said he was satisfied with the success of the first wave of airstrikes against Iraqi targets at the Pentagon this morning. Cohen told NPR the White House is sensitive to the start of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan that begins this weekend. But he says airstrikes will continue.

We will not put in order to show restrictions on when we decide the mission has been completed. We will try to complete it as quickly as we can. But there's no firm date. The poem which you wouldn Defense Secretary Richard Cohen former President Jimmy Carter has issued a statement supporting the airstrikes against Iraq. He says these attacks are not connected to President Clinton's impeachment proceedings. Joshua Levs of member station WABE reports from Atlanta. Former President Carter says it has been clear since early November that there would be military action without. For the debate it's Saddam Hussein again violated his pledge to allow unrestricted U.N. weapons inspections. Carter said the American strikes were launched only after U.S. Ambassador Richard Butler reported that Iraq had violated the pledge. Carter says American leaders played no role in the timing of Iraq's decisions. He called the allegations by some lawmakers that the president would launch the attack for political purposes unjust and ill

advised. And he says that while Americans may not agree that the bombing is justified Iraq's violations cannot be related to political events in Washington. For NPR News I'm Joshua Levs in Atlanta. Reuters News Service says the United States has closed 40 of its embassies in Africa for the next two days. Only three posts remain open in South Africa Nigeria and Burkina Faso. On Wall Street the Dow is up 77 points. This is NPR. NPR's business update amid the global uncertainty prompted by the joint American-British attack against Iraq. U.S. markets are mostly higher today. NPR's business correspondent Jack Speer reports. Despite the errant cruise missile attack against Iraq by U.S. and British forces and the fact the market generally doesn't like international turmoil blue chip stocks are higher at midday. Stocks rose shortly after the opening bell this morning in large measure due to some positive earnings news from a major U.S. bank and a smaller than expected trade shortfall for the month of October. Chase

Manhattan the country's third biggest bank announced they'd expect its earnings for the fourth quarter to top analysts expectations that sent Chase stock up more than $4 a share today. The government also reported the difference between what we sent to foreign countries and what they ship to us actually felt by 1.2 percent in October. Oil shares which had risen following the U.S. attack dropped back a bit today. Jack Speer NPR News Washington. That's in foods and two of its employees have been charged with trying to hide information about the widespread tainting of hamburger last year. Sixteen people were sickened last year by the beef which was linked to a potentially deadly E. coli outbreak. Twenty five million pounds of beef were recalled under heavy pressure by the Agriculture Department. A grand jury in Lincoln Nebraska accused the company in the workers with conspiring to conceal the severity of the outbreak and to give the federal government false information about the matter. Again our top stories the United States and Great Britain have begun a second wave of airstrikes against Iraq today. Pentagon

officials say the first round of airstrikes conducted yesterday produced severe damage to some targets. I'm CORBA Coleman NPR in Washington. Support for NPR comes from Borders Books and music offering the world to explore through books and music. Location information 800 6 4 4 7 7 3 3. Morning and welcome to Odyssey N.W. Chicago ninety one point five FM AM. I'm Gretchen helper. Dr. Quentin Young is here with me today good morning Quentin Good morning to you. We're going to talk about childbirth Today we're joined by Dr. Alan Charles who is chief of obstetrics and gynecology at Michael Reese Hospital and we're also joined by Suzanne arms who is the author of immaculate deception to myth magic and birth. As you can guess by the title there was an immaculate deception one it was written in one thousand seventy five at a time when the

practices and choices for women in terms of giving birth were much much more narrow than they are now. And quite a bit has changed in those 23 years. Suzanne I'm so may begin by asking you why you felt the need to write another book given what given what has happened and to want to write yours. There's so many more choices so many different ways why is are there still problems. Yes. In fact I would say that everything has changed but nothing is different. The bottom line is that women are more frightened than ever of giving birth in a country that should have women being more comfortable about giving birth than at any time in history. We have great hospital care when we need it. We have good emergency backup transportation we have blood banking and cross matching and we can do transfusions we can do rapid says Ariens. Why aren't American women comfortable about giving birth and they are more frightened and more Dishon bodied and disconnected from their bodies than ever before and there are many reasons for it that I won't go into this minute but that's that's one piece of it. The other piece is that I believe that childbirth itself is the

greatest unaddressed social political and public health issue of our day because it is a 50 billion dollar a year industry. What do you mean when you say it's a social glue because we're traumatizing the mothers and babies that we are meant to serve. And this has to do with how we conduct birth. It also has to do with the fact that mothers are beginning to disconnect from and separate from their babies in pregnancy before they ever even bond to them as they prepare to go back to work three to six weeks after birth without their babies in a day care system. That is not designed to allow mothers and babies to be together during the day while they're working. Dr. Charles let me ask you to jump in here you've been watching the last 23 years as well. Do you see the situation the same way or do you see are you more optimistic less optimist I think I'm more optimistic I think first of all being involved in this field for a long time. Women are becoming much more empowered. I noticed that with my own patients and I you know I was sent in general so that these kind of choices that are

open to women are much more available. Now the idea that they are forced into something that they don't want I think is not quite exactly the way it is. The separation Actually I've found bonding of babies occurs better now because most women get an ultrasound early in pregnancy. They see their baby. They start bonding with the baby realistically they see it almost throughout the entire pregnancy. I think that bonding starts earlier and hopefully when husband see that baby in utero and see the little movements of the baby and see the heartbeat. There's a great deal of bonding that occurs even before the baby is born unfortunately and I agree with you on the fact that after the baby is born women have limited opportunities in our society to stay with their babies and I think that's a tragedy. Nobody can raise your baby better and give it its value. Excuse me you want me better than its own parents.

So I think that that I agree 100 percent with C I would say that in fact we are moving women further away from their babies by routine ultrasound because it becomes a baby on a television screen not a baby in my body. We already have women who are very distant bodied very disconnected from their bodies why else do American women start asking their doctors for their epidural in the third trimester acces me that the third month of pregnancy when can I get my epidural is the American question. And in most hospitals the epidural rate is 80 to 90 percent and not only that induction of labor is back on the rise again I mean we're seeing it 30 40 50 percent in some hospital 60 percent induction and all of mentation of labor and those kinds of labors are very hard for a woman to feel comfortable with because the contractions are so much harder. It seems like from the way you describe it so far that the pressure or the demand for that type of thing is coming from the women I mean that the mess has been that the doctors. That you know in the olden days you go to the hospital the doctor would drug you up and induce labor and you just sat there

passively while he got the baby out of you but you're making it sound like women are now demanding that it happen in a particular way. Ironic but we've really lost the war too in the battle for women's consciousness in the 70s it was early 70s it was very clear what was going on women were birthing in basements of hospitals and they were handcuffed to the delivery table husbands could not be present. They were scoped or that's one of the heavy narcotics they were given or drugged or a third you know to to within an inch of their life. I think that's a little. I think that policies thought it the fade actually in the 60s was it reached its apex in the early 50s in the middle 60s at this writing much on the Klein by the way let's these it was on the decline but we still had it even in Boston lying in in 1978. They use Cabala meaning Demerol called Twilight sleep. Yes I know. And obviously they were a little behind the times even though Boston lying in it is supposed to have been a wonderful place. But in it here in the Midwest

we were using other things including the one Maz and epi Dural So I think that there is a broader range of available things for women. I think the big problem really exists in access to medical care and education. And I think when some of the things you're talking about. You really have to do with the fact that in our society there's a large group of women who have no access to either care or education and therefore they lose that sense of empowerment and they are at the mercy of whatever is available to them I think that's where the difference is. Now we also have a large part of our society who do have access to good care who have good access to education. You know in many places there were childbirth courses in almost every major Johnson middle and it's usually available to people who have money because they charge forward.

But even in some of the public hospitals now there are childbirth education courses so right there's more and more and more access to it to care for the middle class but see I would say that although access to care is what's causing us to have so much infant mortality and low birth weight. And B the country that leads the highest rate of low birth weight babies in the industrialized world and yet that is the second leading cause of all deaths among babies so it's now train jamming and Radio National and that has to do with access to care but not so much access to medical care as access to social services. Where I would disagree with Alan is that I believe that it's the upper middle class woman who is equally deprived because she believes that her epidural is the be all and end all and she goes in wondering to be drugged. She does usually has problems breastfeeding and very often doesn't even bother because she's going to go back to work and she's really been sold a bill of goods that breastfeeding isn't significant. She carries her baby in a plastic baby carrier which of course is mimicked all over the world now by women who can afford it.

She does not sleep with her babies and she reads the books that say that when your baby cries in the night you need to use behavior modification to get your baby to sleep. By not touching it and letting it cry through the night what we are doing is a systematic isolation separation deprivation of maternal attachment and stimulation and on top of that we're hyper stimulating this neocortex which we're so excited about in this culture so when he when Ellen talks about birth education I'd say what we're educating is our forebrain. But it's not our forebrain that births it's our ancient brain and that is a brain that listens to music and environment and touch and the killer of a dual or even more important that care of a midwife. And when we talk about choices yes women have more choices but only 5 percent of American women have natural childbirth. Only one quarter of a 1 percent berth at home only another half a percent birth and birth centers out of

the hospital. So we do have choices but women are not exercising. But I think you also have to be aware of the medical consequences of some of those we know that a significant number somewhere between 10 and 20 percent of women even though everything seems normal can have problems in labor. So being at home while being in a birthing center without a direct access to a medical hospital where an emergency may or car may be dangerous and it has a card so that it's easy to say some of these things and I agree with you about some of them. In addition I disagree about breastfeeding I think it's quite the contrary. Right now there's more and more encouragement for breastfeeding among the medical. Back to all these because we all recognize the superiority of breastfeeding and there's more failure Laich is wringing its hands at this very hour about the failure rate of breastfeeding.

Having grown up in the last few years because of the combination of early back to work and epidural I don't carry Well I don't think the epidural has anything to do with breastfeeding because once a woman has the baby painlessly which I don't think is such a terrible thing that my daughter and I just had a baby and she's breastfeeding but I don't think that inhibits breastfeeding. I think you're right about social issues that deprive parents of their children from early on let me let me jump in there because Suzanne a lot of issues that you're talking about aren't really necessarily medical issues I mean we all see this sort of laid out in a medical context but a lot of the ideas that you're talking about it that you're advocating have to do with attitudes that that start long before any longer you're there. But you know we do have to watch the the sell the health and safety issue and I do have a major disagreement about the issue that 20 percent of women have complications in pregnancy in birth that are unexpected and then that being linked with emergencies those complications can by and large be handled

by a P.A. midwife a certified nurse midwife a direct entry midwife. A family physician who is skilled they do not require a hospital. They require a $5 Amba bag or source of oxygen. They require a shot to stop bleeding. I mean they are not emergencies and I really have a problem when anybody suggests that complications are emergencies because the vast number of emergencies that happen in birth in this country happen in hospitals because women are not getting direct one on one made with free care. Nobody is really watching them. They're watching the bank of monitors and the women themselves and their babies are being looked at as monitors stripped tracings and as a result when problems start to arise there's nobody there to handle the simple baby's heart goes down. What do you do. You change the mother's position. You get her out of bed you make sure she's not in bed in the first place. You get her to walk that automatically relieves most of the problem that

is caused by a baby lying on its own cord and cutting down its own oxygen supply. But why do you know why these two worlds I mean sort of gets divided between like you know traditional big hospitals and alternative or alternative ideas or or centers or practices about childbirth what why are they incompatible. Well like you're Allan's first. Well first of all they aren't totally incompatible. There are many centers which work with midwives and physicians in general so that they can work together. My only concern is that if something goes wrong in labor and the attempted delivery and you don't have an immediate access to an emergency service. Now I would tell you I wouldn't have wanted my grandson be such that they would with an Ambien bag which is a simple warm response to the nation. If there were a problem I would want my grandson resuscitate it by somebody skilled who could then to bait that baby if necessary and make sure that that baby got everything that's to make sure whatever he was in that

was bizarre. That's a that's a major world you differently because I know that it can happen and not only personally. Do I know it can happen on other sites. But this flies in the face of scientific evidence I've just got 12 papers and studies that have shown that the midwifery model of care in any setting is superior to the medical model in any setting even for high risk women. Yeah I've been they typically have it and I think yeah I really enjoy is learning to now using their knowledge. I'm not I'm familiar with it but I learned a lot and I think in a very few minutes Gretchen we kind of remarkably introduced at least and maybe addressed all of the big tensions in this all important human experience and you know Blodgett Yeah. But just quickly to summarize I hope not redundantly. You have the whole question of empowerment you have medicalization you have technology as an issue all of which are on the table. Obviously I'm not the expert the trade let alone lead to experts but

I would make a couple observations which I'd like you to react to first on your last riff of the I think the evidence is strong in your favor but that you left out the crucial and all important and easily obtained goal if you can get early access to the pregnant woman early. Things like first month of primes were certainly the second and third and screamed her carefully with or without medical attention and then you're your outcomes are really excellent. I think that's the basis for your optimistic statement it is although in L.A. County when they researched 12 years of military service they found that their working with high risk women and even the women who were screened to see physicians in the course of their care or in birth they actually handled high risk women and their outcome for all women with midwifery for everyone even though they might have a physician present and doing an operative delivery. Which is

a Sicilian or a forceps in the case of a manipulative delivery was better than the care of Obstetricians and so we're not talking about logo but I think they are again with the back up of physicians. Yes I would never get it well I should point and most of the other midwife studies there is a good outcome but they are highly selected they definitely rule out high risk. Peggy I'm saying you know the good studies show that even high risk pregnancies and Iris were physicians back up in their facility that can deal with it not at home and not in the Beargarden reason having her hurting too. Not the ideal but certainly a union of the two strings. The superior technical skill in the really rough case which could lose a baby or a mother or both and the absolute virtue in my book of the MID with free movement while those of the hands on early on. Well. I just a wondering a couple things you said because I think they're important. The

things that women are lacking are the social services to have good nutrition good education about their bodies so they understand why drugs are less effective than their own hormones in labor why the drugs don't work as well and create more problems for birth and the epidural has so many risks associated with it I don't even want to go into all of them but you know lowered blood pressure fever in the mother. Just to mention a few the fever in the mother which is just an artifact it's not a true infection results in vast numbers of babies we're talking of tens of thousands of American babies going to the ICU for three days a full septic work up care which includes a spinal tap on healthy full term newborn newborns because their mothers were deprived of midwifery care or one on one nursing or having a doula with them and instead chose a drug. But if we wait too. If we wait to work with women who are high risk until they start

labor we're always going to see more problems and complications. Even then the midwifery model works. But the real issue is how do you get women healthy in the course of pregnancy. And how do you get healthy women to recognize that in fact the ultimate quality of birth is a natural childbirth is a childbirth in which her baby's faculties are not diminished by those drugs and by separation and by anything that stands in the way of that process and I'm saying that the entire system is built on isolation and separation unconsciously We've got two specialties that care for mothers and babies. They never talk to each other about how come this baby ends up in the ICU because of the care that she got in labor and so on. What we really need is the recognition that natural childbirth is highly sustainable functional and works for mothers and babies. And we've got a society that purports to be anti-drug and we're pushing drugs in the hospital. We're pushing

we're pushing anesthesiology on women drugs epidurals are not a brilliant form of that as they should. Nothing has replaced women's own hormones for diminishing the pain of contractions. And what we get is. Babies who are compromised and it is true that the studies are showing problems with breastfeeding directly related to epidurals and they can't figure out why ok don't tell me that Dr Charles going respond to that before we but I think it's going to slay one thing if you have a baby. Yes you would probably naturally know I wanted to but I got the first sedation shot when I ended up in the hospital at once on a meter and I should have been sent home because I wasn't in labor and I. What did they do. Well they said that because I was a docile patient because I in my case I'd been a sexually abused woman as a child and so I was very passive. But even if I hadn't been my training was to listen to outside experts not to my body and

I came into a system which in my case was San Francisco San Francisco hospital that was actually known for natural childbirth. But they didn't understand what that meant and so women like me who came in early were automatically given a sedation or given buckle potatoes and virtually everything I and many women of my generation in the 70s got. That's what I'm taken off the market at subprime crisis now. But we're doing new forms of poor medicine. All right we need to take and we need to take a break. We're talking today with Suzanne arms who is the author of immaculate deception to myth magic and birth. And we're also talking with Dr. Alan Charles who is chief of obstetrics and gynecology at Michael Reese Hospital. And we're sort of almost talking to. Who is me. Oh I'm being told that we're going to skip the break OK. Here's an update for you. We're going to continue to talk for a few more minutes and then at about 20 till we're going to call it a day here on Odyssey and go back to coverage of what is going on

in the Persian Gulf. We've just gotten word that a second wave of attacks has just started so we will take a couple of calls and then we'll get ourselves organized then we'll turn things over to Jerome McDonnell and he will fill us in on what is going on in Iraq so stay with us our phone numbers 3 1 2 8 3 2 3 1 2 4 8 3 2 3 1 2 4 If you'd like to ask a question or make a comment join in the conversation. Let me give a little bit of information Suzanne arms. Her book again is immaculate deception to myth magic and birth and she's speaking around town in the coming days. She'll be speaking at the Health and Medicine Policy Research Group today from 4:30 to 6 That's at 3:30 to south Michigan. She will have a book signing tomorrow at birth Waze Resource Center from 6 to 8. That's at fourteen eighty four West Farragut. And then there's a workshop on Saturday. All day which will include a screening of video giving birth challenging choices that is at the University of Illinois College of Nursing in the nursing lounge at 8:45 South Damon if you need any more information give us

a call here at the station We'll fill you in again 3 1 2 8 3 2 3 1 2 4 is our number. Let's talk to Chris good morning Chris around WBEZ. Good morning. I had a comment regarding the I don't think the proponent of the author that's the proponent of natural childbirth and as such an objection to alter sounds and one ultrasound saved my son's life and the fact that it detected that my wife had placenta previa at about five months and then they monitor much closely and she ended up needing an emergency C-section. And I I think that should this author doesn't really give proper weight to taking advantage of the tools that we have to save children's lives. You know I really appreciate that comment and the fact that you're talking about this and a previous A perfect example may I talk about it a minute. Every single thing that we have developed in modern technology and medicine has a place I'm not interested in having no hospitals no obstetricians no peer any charges no ultrasound. They

are being used indiscriminately and often traumatizing mothers in babies and making care providers and mothers and fathers more anxious now I'll give you an example with an early detection of placenta previa placenta previa as a condition in which the placenta actually and here is low on the uterus and therefore can as the uterus grows block the opening of the uterus caused called the cervix so that when the baby goes into labor it cannot be born without breaking through the its own placenta and causing the mother to bleed to death possibly. It is a very serious condition. Now the problem is with the notion that we need ultrasound for all women because maybe they'll develop a placenta previa. Most placenta is actually migrate in the course of the pregnancy and if you look at a spot on a balloon and you draw that spot with the magic markers to where the placenta it here is to the uterus. As that balloon is filled up with the baby has that

uterus gets bigger the placenta actually goes up higher and higher and further away from the cervix. The vast majority of placenta previa is don't end up placenta previa. But meanwhile you've made everybody anxious and over monitored her usually giving her a lot of ultrasounds which is NOT been proven safe or risk free I think. And one other thing is that there are symptoms of placenta previa if a woman starts to bleed it's one of the things that any good midwife or doctor tells her in pregnancy is a side that you immediately call a doctor and go to a hospital doctor Charles going to hear it. You know first of all it's true what's thought to be sometimes a low lying placenta does seem to migrate away from the cervix. But what I think this gentleman was talking about is a central P.C. to preview that will never migrate away and knowing about it early and keeping a woman at bed rest so that extractive body doesn't stimulate you during contractions and cause a major hemorrhage.

You know we have that ultrasound it's important it helps with the dating of a pregnancy when it's done around the middle of the pregnancy. And that's important because when women go past their dates every statistic shows the further they go beyond their due date the higher the morbidity mortality rate is for the fetus and therefore it's important to know pretty accurately if you can when the mother's due date is and the year and an early ultrasound helps establish that. So sometimes technology can be important. I what I mean we have to stop there because even there there's factual inaccuracy is this the research actually shows that there is no medical indication for ever terminating a pregnancy simply because of

going past due date. And in fact many women go to three weeks past due date. Many physicians even are now beginning to think we should give women a month that they're due in not a days because a lot is predicting everything in medical knowledge not in that I wanted that. These are shows the further you go beyond 40 weeks especially beyond 41 weeks to say that women go to 43 in 44 weeks is very small numbers of women who have greater risk going to 40 to 43 weeks. But in fact many women quite normally go there and as long as you have a woman keeping track of fetal movement and there are very simple things that you do that are noninvasive that she does at home very comfortably. There's no problem the real problem is that we're now inducing women on their due date or before. And we are not ising that. But they're doing it routinely in many hospitals I have to tell you they might not do it in Chicago but they're doing it in Seattle right leg so we've only got a few minutes I do want to move through some more calls Chris thank you very

much. Tell your dialogue let's talk to Sharon Good morning sharing her on WBEZ. Hi thank you for taking my call. Let me say first that I had a baby five years ago when I was 43 almost 44 years of age my first child. I chose to have a home birth because I knew that given my age alone had I gone to a hospital I would have been a prime candidate for this area and not had not taking into consideration anything about my health or anything else. I also had a very long labor and I know I knew that were I to be in a hospital they would not have allowed me to do that. I had a very healthy baby a healthy pregnancy everything was wonderful. I see a very disturbing trend however I see in women 15 to 20 years younger than myself. They sort of obey the since to the medical model of childbirth and to the pathology of pathology izing of childbirth. That it's disturbing to me because my 60 center has been was very

very different and I'm wondering if the new generation of physicians are still being instilled with this kind of pathological view of childbirth in medical school and are then foisting that few on these younger women. Well a lot of that have been pregnant having a child is not a normal departure. Is that what you mean I'm out. I don't want to put words in their mouth a symptom. Some kind of illness or other I think you're right I think that's okay Sharon thanks very much for your call that's interesting question about about training and ideas about medical approaches we have a very little bit of time so if I could get a response from them I think quite clearly at least in my experience medical students are taught that this is a natural process and as a matter of fact our delivery rooms our labor delivery rooms that are set up like a like a living room with a bed and couches for the family. So I think that that concept a pathology rising quote unquote labor and delivery is. And pregnancy is

certainly on the wane. Suzanne imes a final thought. The reason I've done this whole film series birthing the future which I'm showing the first film on this week is that that is not true. In fact birth is more pathological than ever because we tell women that birth is normal and then we do everything possible to make them feel anxious without knowing why we're doing it we're giving them lots more information but the information doesn't make women comfortable and you only have to look at our statistics. A nation that has 22 percent says Arry and 90 percent epidurals that there are no national Is there any percent induction rate yes this there is only 90 percent that the door rate for the Center for Disease Control. OK I have to cut you out there I have to cut you off there. We end on a high. Obviously a hotly contested area I like to think both of our guests bringing in today Suzanne arms as the author of immaculate deception to myth magic and birth. And Dr. Alan Charles is chief of obstetrics and gynecology at Michael Reese Hospital. Thanks to one who called my apologies that we couldn't get to two more phone calls when Young thank you as always. You're welcome.

Thanks to Joshua Andrews for producing and directing and to Carol freedoms for engineering where if you have tuned in recently and are wondering why we're ending early it is because we are going to go to worldview early withdrawal McDonnell with some updated coverage on events in the Persian Gulf so drum will be in in just a moment to bring us up to date. This is Odyssey I'm Gretchen Helfer. And you're listening to WBEZ Chicago support for programming on WBEZ provided by the terror Museum of American Art presenting Robert Cappa photographs on view for only three more weeks on Wednesday December 16th calling wester Beck associate curator of photography at the Art Institute will present a lecture on titled Henri Cartier-Bresson on the other side of Magnum. The museum store is offering Kappa paraphernalia and other holiday gifts for the information is available at 3 1 2 6 6 4. Thirty nine thirty nine. An airstrike against Iraq and a presidency in crisis. Hello I'm Lisa Mullins host of the world. We'll cover all the day's events in the Middle East and in Washington D.C. with reports from our correspondents from around the globe. Join us for that and more later today on the world.

This in for international news tonight and each weeknight at 7:00 o'clock on the World here on WBEZ Chicago. And I'm Jerome McDonnell on WBEZ Chicago and we're getting started with worldview a little early today to bring you up to date on the news and to bring you a Pentagon.